This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[Cecilanius]

I can cover Meta Knight pretty well but not Wario. I'll start typing up a plan against Meta Knight as soon as I can.

 

[abit_rusty]

hmm...since we know a general strategy that works against MK, I think we should cover Wario. There isn't much on dealing with him, so I think it will help. He's not a common enemy yet puts up a good fight against snake, so being prepared is better all the same.

Again, I rarely play against Warios but I do play as him. I can tell you that Wario moves very fluidly in the air, able to DI his fair and bair just out of shield grab range and still be an annoyance. His dair can DI out of danger, and he can fast fall dair to lead into a grab, fsmash, downsmash, dtilt, jab almost anything iactually. The bite is absolutely deadly. Chain-biting, as I like to call it, works well. Bite can also gimp a Snake offstage if the Wario catches you in midair cyphering. His dthrow is just about as good as Snake's when it comes to tech-chased chain grabbing. Wario's recovery is surprisingly good, as well as quite irregular, so it can be a tricky edgeguard.

Those are just some general things that I observe and do as playing as Wario.

 

[napZzz]

scratch meta knight....Diddy deserves a section. He's suprisingly hard to face, and those banana's keep snake from moving around the field very well or doing things like the mortar slide....

 

[abit_rusty]

scratch meta knight....Diddy deserves a section. He's suprisingly hard to face, and those banana's keep snake from moving around the field very well or doing things like the mortar slide....

Hm I dunno, I've been toying with diddy the last few days. His combo potential is ridiculously good, but once the opponent reaches a percent out of combo-range, his effectiveness falls dramactically. I mean, it's absurdly hard to get KO's with diddy, especially against heavyweights (I've mostly been facing DK/ROB with diddy). A lot of the moves used to rack up damage are also his strongest, so the stale move negation is what hurts here. Add that to Snake's grenade countering and awesome KO power against lightweights and the match-up is pretty much in your favor if you play carefully. Most of diddy's game is centered around his bananas, hoping that you roll the wrong way into a smash or dash attack to rack up more damage. Without bananas, diddy's overall game suffers.

Perhaps we can touch on diddy next time, though, right now, we're dealing with the not-so-lean, mean, farting machine that is Wario.

Speaking of the fart, I usually never let that charge all the way. Your opponent is going to be extremely careful as soon as they see you glowing. In case this isn't known by all, Wario's fart is strongest just before it is fully charged, and it has very nice KO power from half charged until then. Not letting it charge fully allows it to be used as a surprise attack, not to mention it has super armor frames initially.

 

[SaxDude93]

My limited exposure against Wario is that his ground game is somewhat pathetic. Not on Jiggs' level, but not in the upper half of the cast. Fsmash is nice because of invincibility frames, but is laggy and I think somewhat telegraphed. The Wario Waft is good for some limited mindgames. Bite can annoy people, but that's Wario's ground game in a nutshell. It's lacking.Air game on the other hand. Well, I would just stay out of aerial combat. Easier said than done, though.

That's Wario's problem. He's only 1/2-3/4 character. He's not complete. And on Diddy. Diddy seems like the cheap man's Snake. Whatever Diddy's strengths are, Snake can do it better.

 

[StoleUrCar]

Hmm I think can contribute a little bit. Sax nailed it, Wario's ground options are kinda limited, the highlights being grabs/fsmash/bite. I play against Wario now and again and he does provide a challenge, but that's only if he plays smartly and spaces his aerials well. His approach in general consists of aerials because that's his strong point.

Almost all Warios aprroach with either a DI'ed fair or nair, both with little to no landing lag so they are safe and they are tough to punish with good DI. From my experience, while he does have strong KO moves, it can still be hard to KO snake. If he wants to secure a KO, he'll save his fsmash for higher percents, and just rack up damage with bite/throws/aerials. A clap (uair) can work against a falling snake, he'll likely bait your airdodge and then fast fall and clap as soon as the airdodge animation ends. Ftilt also can be deceptive, and serves as a good KO move at high percents. Be warned, fart can come when you least expect it, and yea it does have super armor. Also, a full charged fart actually has much better KO potential when Wario's head hits the enemy, so keep that in mind because not every Wario will constantly hold the fart in. They may try to fart from below, so watch out.

That's his general playstyle actually, the reason that Snake can have a hard time is that what seems to be a clunky playstyle is actually smooth weaving in and out with aerials, forcing the shield, and punishing with bite. If the Wario DI's correctly, grenade countering does not work as consistently because he doesn't reach far enough in the shield to hit the nade. Bite prevents spot-dodge-happy Snakes, and he can chase you a bit out of bite into one or two more bites, or a grab. Also, Wario's bite on cypher is pretty lethal, he can jump far offstage and bite (which is the equivalent of a cypher grab) and gimp your recovery, and still be able to recover due to his amazing bike.

Snake should keep his distance and use his awesome tilt range to keep the Wario at bay. Mortar slide can work but if you spam it the Wario can use dtilt or ftilt to stop that. Stay the heck out of the air, and you should have the match in the bag.

I'll add more later if I can think of it but that's from my experience.

edit: and lol @ diddy being the poor-man's snake. I can see that lol.

 

[Dragmire]

sorry for not posting a falco matchup But I missed a falco dominant tourney oops but wario I know

Wario the fatass badass that has some good tools against snake including the gimp via eating the cypher, great aerial movemnt and a big fat damager. how do we deal with all these and more?

the gimp remember that bomb jump is always an option but if necessary try to dismount by pressing R and aerial dodging back onto the platform. also the possibility is very small but I've done it before if you are holding a grenade throw it into his mouth even killing him on an even smaller chance but the eaten bomb will explode hitting you if close enough allowing you to jump again.

Now as for how to deal with his aerial godliness, try to keep consistant with the fact that snake is a grounded fighter with few aerial options. so since they'll most likely SH Dair chuck a grenade while they approach you or triple A combo works well. all of his attacks combo well though so try not to get caught and If you do remember to always keep some defense along with your offense to keep wario at bay.

although he's heavy remember you are solid snake the 3rd heaviest char in the game . seriously though snakes attacks are heavy hitters your best killing moves are Utilt and Possible C4's. make sure if you get grabbed by him best option is for you to shield so his next attack is stopped but don't keep using it or else he will chain you.

his bike is another nuisance, but snake has a nice trick up his sleeve for this road hog the nades will stop him in his tracks and hurt him but don't go about thinking that proximities will stop him. his the bike takes the hit for those.

other than that watch out for wario wafts thunder claps (Uairs) and be the snakiest snake you can be

 

[Hot_ArmS]

omg another one??? youre too good rusty

as for falco, i find that he can somewhat juggle you with his utilt then follow it up with a nair..........also watch out for the jab (or jab jab) to grab.......what i do is just roll away from falco everytime i get close and not in control lol i dont force tilts

also i usually pick lylat for my cp but it DOESNT work against falco imo, u cant go prone against his lasers lol

also if u really dont wanna be chaingrabbed you can just let ur grenades blow up in ur face in the beginning of ur stock someone playing link did that to my brothers falco lol

 

[Cecilanius]

Thanks for the info on Wario guys. I have no idea how to face him. I don't know what to contribute.

 

[samdaballer]

wario has very little range, so camp and abuse ftilt and utilit for the kills. have him approach you. be gay and camp till he does then ftilt his ***,

 

[Azrealdnt]

This thread should really include counter pick stages as well against each character.

Example: Olimar:

Frigate Orpheon: The right side has no ledge, which gimps his recovery.

 

[abit_rusty]

This thread should really include counter pick stages as well against each character.

Example: Olimar:

Frigate Orpheon: The right side has no ledge, which gimps his recovery.

Yea I was considering that, bans as well are definitely a good idea.

Doesn't look like many people have much to say for Wario...at least that's what it seems like. If you anyone wants to give suggestions for counterpicks/bans for the already listed characters to cap off the week, feel free to do so. If there's more input on Wario that's also welcome.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

the right side has no ledge =0

omg now i can pwn olimars more ^.^

 

[DMG]

Well I main Wario and the best advice I can give to a Snake main is this: Don't get predictable.

If you have any bad habits that you can't shake off, you will be in trouble if the Wario exploits it the right way. If you always roll a certain way after his Dthrow, if you always respond the same exact way to his approaches, or if you always have the same recovery path, he can pick up on that and make you very sorry for being too predictable. That is half of the battle right there, you don't need to handicap yourself unnecessarily like that.

I don't have any really specific advice, just fell like removing bad habits/getting rid of punishable patterns should be a top priority in this particular match for both players, since each character is better than average at making you regret things.

 

[T*H*O*R]

A good way to kill Wario is a grab release to up tilt. If you don't really play against Wario and don't know what I'm talking about, here it is:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177538

Also watch out for his bite. I know that Wario's aerial mastery has been talked about ad nauseum but his bite can kick the living **** out of Snake if you are not ready for it. It can nullify your grenades, pull you right out of a mortar slide, gimp your recovery (grab style) in the air and it and rack up damage and eat through your wall of priority. Watch any good Wario play against Snake and you will see nothing but bite spamming and short hopped aerials.

 

[DMG]

A good way to kill Wario is a grab release to up tilt. If you don't really play against Wario and don't know what I'm talking about, here it is:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177538

Also watch out for his bite. I know that Wario's aerial mastery has been talked about ad nauseum but his bite can kick the living **** out of Snake if you are not ready for it. It can nullify your grenades, pull you right out of a mortar slide, gimp your recovery (grab style) in the air and it and rack up damage and eat through your wall of priority. Watch any good Wario play against Snake and you will see nothing but bite spamming and short hopped aerials.

I'm pretty sure Wario can avoid that by breaking out of the grab WITHOUT either jumping or pressing up on the control stick. That only works if he does a jump break and there are ways to purposefully avoid doing a jump break.

Good Wario's do not spam Bite... Maybe if we knock you off and try the bite gimp but otherwise no we aren't gonna spam it. SH aerials yes, those we use a lot, but we also use ground attacks as well (Jab, Ftilt, Fsmash, Grab to name a few.) Don't assume that we are all aerial and chomp happy.

 

[T*H*O*R]

Oh no I'm not assuming you are all chomp happy, but the Warios that I play beat me when they spam bite.

As far as the grab release to up tilt, this will always happen if a person breaks free from a grab and they are not touching the ground, regardless of whether or not they press jump while they are being grabbed. This grab release works for a guaranteed kill at the right percentage; every time. Read the thread I posted if you don't believe me.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

T*H*O*R is right when Wario breaks out if a grab you can always follow it up with an u-tilt. Many characters can take advantage of this as well as Snake.

 

[abit_rusty]

Wow I never thought about doing utilt from grab release...while I was just using the stale ftilt all this time and delaying my KO...I could have been ending things quicker...

*self face-palm*

Great tip.

About the Wario match-up, many Warios will double jump to place themselves in a favorable position for an aerial. The double jump allows them to retreat if there is no opening, or present a bit of irregularity in the path of their attack when they do decide to approach. Overall it's safe against Snake who has limited aerial options. What you should know is that the action they will take will likely occur after the 2nd jump. On that note, check out this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9leATB3aef8

See how DSF takes advantage of this tactic by reacting to the actions Dizy performs after the 2nd jump? I think that should merit a good tactic against aerial-happy Warios. GG by both players, though, as a Snake player, I would have airdodged the mortar at 1:32. lol.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

g-reg's too good!

i grabbed him off his cypher and he still survived using a c4 =0


also i was playing against a wario mainer last night and that grab to utilt thing works wonders

i got nearly all my kills to be like that lol amazing

 

[Turbo Ether]

Snake destroys Wario. You can also grab release him into a FJ neutral air for 28% damage, lol.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

You've covered two of the characters I use most and I read some interesting points on both of them. I'm a bit surprised that MK hasn't been covered considering the state of the MK vs Snake stuff going on, but you'll get there.

However, after hearing so much about how awesome Snake seems to be against everyone, I'm delighted to know that both Olimar (my second main) and R.O.B (my alternative play-for-fun character) are both good challenges for Snake. I really need to practice R.O.B. though...I don't have much of a handle on him yet. He's just so freakin' fun to play as.

 

[Azrealdnt]

As for stages here's what the ROB forums say about snake:

Stage Counterpicks:

* Wiiiiide open spaces, you hearing me? Final Destination? Great choice. Jungle Japes? Oooooh yeah, especially with a crappy Cypher recovery that might lead to a Klap-Trap kill. Frigate? Hell yes. Luigi’s Mansion? Awesome, although I’ve been told it’s not. Personally, I think it’s awesome because of your ability to shoo lasers through pillars, shoot gyros safely near the ledge, Snake’s inability to properly mortar slide or grenade spam, down-smash heaven, and even when the level is destroyed, it’s still huuuuge.
* Also, levels that are kinda crazy in the way they switch around or screw with Snake’s recovery. As such, Rainbow Cruise is awesome. Skyworld is also awesome (have you ever seen a Snake C4 recovery and hit his head on the bottom of the bottom floor and die? It’s hilarious).
* If you HAVE to play on a small or platform-heavy level, like Yoshi’s Story, Lylat Cruise, or Battlefield, you may want to consider ledge-camping. You’ll also have to be extra careful with the mines and with the approaches since landing on a platform means pretty much an easy u-tilt for Snake. Your one saving grace is that it is easy to up-smash Snake here, but it seriously isn’t worth it.
* Smashville deserves a special mention because of the C4 on the traveling platform thing. It’s somewhat large, so that’s good for R.O.B., and the platform when it’s near the edges is great for forcing a gimp through a b-throw or b-air. Kind of a tricky level if you’re not watching out for the mines.

So, we can assume they want to bring us to Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise, Skyworld or Final Destination. Another one they don't mention which I dislike is Norfair. Ban whatever you feel least comfortable with (If you have a mostly ground based game, ax Rainbow Cruise.) Remember that not all tournaments will have those stages available, so be sure to plan in advance.

As for counterpicks, most stages with platforms are great for us, as C4 hits well underneath, effectively limiting their movements. You can shut down entire sections of the map, which really helps against ROBs that like to play at long range. Not only that, but platforms can limit a ROBs approach to only ground based attacks, as ROBs are very weak when you are underneath them, and the platforms acts as a barrier for most of their aerial approaches. The only advantage platforms bring for them is their upsmash, so watch out for a dash-upsmash if you are above them. If ROB is above you, you can utilt him through the platform, or full hop / double jump nair. If you expect him to shield, you can always plant a C4 on him. If he is below, I usually just try to jump away and fast fall in some other spot on the map, I'm not sure if there is more offensive approach here (Help me out here!)

Remember that some stages' color schemes help disguise either mines or C4, so you can get some kills on people that would otherwise be impossible when they were always visible. I find that Frigate (very hard to spot!), Final Destination and to a lesser extent Lylat hide C4 quite well, and Smashville and Battlefield hide Proximity mines, especially when the camera pans farther out.

So some good stages for you are:

Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Lylat, Frigate Orpheon(?), Delfino, Pokemon Stadium (Melee), Halberd

Stages you want to avoid are:

Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Skyworld, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon(?) and Final Destination(?)

I'm not really sure about Final Destination. Sure, it's quite a large stage, which makes it easier for ROB to out camp you, and there are no platforms to make your mines more potent, but I find it there's nothing to hinder either your Mortar Slides, or your Mortar shell from falling (platforms prevent using Mortar as a deterrent to laggy attacks and grabs.) You can also cross the stage very fast with two Mortar Slides, allowing you to be anywhere on the stage quickly. The color also makes it had to see C4 sometimes. Keep in mind you can cross the stage faster with 2 Mortar Slides than ROB can Up-B underneath the stage, so you can slide twice and hug the edge to potentially gimp his otherwise godly recovery. (If you don't get there in time, you can run off bair to stage spike him.)

Again, with Frigate, I disagree with them; I think the stage is great. It's hard to spot mines, the platforms are well placed, they can't ledge stalling on one side (Mortar Spam!) and the flip doesn't gimp you often as Cypher has such a vertical lift.

____________________

Another note on Wario, since all his moves have very little range, you are very safe if you shoot a Mortar. Chances are it will hit him if he grabs / aerials / smashes / anything.

Oh, and grab release Nair / utilt makes the match-up much easier. Learn the timing on Nair, and it will become an easy 28-3x%.

 

[napZzz]

watch out for his sh dair approach, its pretty common with wario and its hard to punish because of its little lag. NEVER underestimate his fsmash and its invincibility frame filled good ness....

Snake destroys Wario. You can also grab release him into a FJ neutral air for 28% damage, lol.

does this only work at certain %'s?

 

[abit_rusty]

I tested it. If the Wario isn't expecting it, the full jump nair out of grab release will work. Otherwise, if the Wario realizes you're waiting for him to break out of the grab, he can airdodge the nair asap as soon as he breaks out.

 

[abit_rusty]

I've updated with the summary for the Wario match-up.

Also, I've chosen the next character to be G&W, and even if many attest that he's easily KO'd because he's so light, he can still serve up a can of **** on any Snake player that is unprepared.

-He boasts incredible KO moves and very nice aerials.

-His bair makes him tough to approach with a finishing move.

-He's another character than can give you a taste of your own medicine with dthrow tech-chasing.

-Another notable aerial is the uair. We all know Snake is most vulnerable in the air, and G&W's uair intends to keep him in that vulnerable state with the invisible hitbox that keeps Snake airborne with "puffs" of air, and can often set up for a smash/aerial as he is falling slowly. Not only that, but even if it's just the invisible hitbox that hits, his uair still refreshes G&W's stale moves. So, he can spam fair/bair as much as he wants and juggle you a few times with uair, and have a fresh KO fair ready when you're falling. Convenient, huh?

I know there are a few Snake players who either play G&W as an aside or face him often. Any advice is appreciated.

Side note: In a few days, I'm going to be away for a while, over a month actually, and I won't have much time to add to discussions or make updates. I'm now handing over the reins of this match-up thread to Cecilanius. Picked him because I know him personally; he'll be writing the summaries to come. Best wishes with future match-up discussions, and I look forward to seeing how this thread has developed when I return. Cheers

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I used to play G&W before he became so overused.

G&W has suprising K.O. potential for such a lightweight. Add that in with a great recovery and fast, high priority attacks and you've got yourself one broken character. His only weakness is his lightweight.

G&W destroys Snake in the air. Snake can be juggled so badly by G&W it's not even funny. Snake needs to be on the ground if he wants to beat G&W, the air is not an option.

Grenade countering is useful for disrupting turtle spam (and chances are G&W will be approaching with it). Mortar sliding is great for closing the distance to nullify G&W's approaches. Once up close Snake's f-tilt works wonders against G&W.

Fighting G&W as Snake in my personal experience is all about getting up close to him and going for the quick K.O.'s.

Camping against G&W isn't advisable since the turtle has such a great range it can destroy 'nades and nikita rockets without damaging G&W. (Not fully sure of this.)

 

[Cecilanius]

Alrighty then. Let me add in a few things...

---
G&W's Uair is probably one of the most dangerous attacks that can be used against a cocky Snake. The attack pushes you up fairly far. A lot of people think they can get passed it and attack. But, that's never the case when facing a good G&W. What the G&W can do is just wait for you to do an attack after you just got pushed up by the Uair. After waiting, he can run into an Usmash which can basically hit through any of Snake's attacks. Every characters attacks lose priority as time goes on. What I mean is, if you use an attack, the beginning of the attack is the strongest but as it goes on, the damage and knockback will decrease. Unless it's followed by another attack. (Hooray for Snake's Nair )

What I suggest you do is to DI as you are being pushed up by the Uair. Fast fall as much as possible. Just don't attack because of the many ways you could be punished. (Bair, Fair, Usmash, etc.). You could even use the B-reversal (preferably with a grenade) to confuse the G&W and get away from the Uair.
---

G&W's dodges and rolls are probably the most exploitable ones in the game. You can punish G&W if he tries to roll and side step dodge. What I suggest is using a grab every time the G&W tries to roll/side step dodge. It gets him every time.
---

When fighting G&W always be on the ground and get used to grabbing because you will be able to do this a lot when fighting him. Just get close to G&W.

You can just power shield the Fair, DI out of the Bair because of how close you are to G&W, and shield grab every time G&W uses another attack.
---

I'm not sure if crawling could be a technique against Fair and Bair. It would be good if someone could clarify this. It seems as if you can go from crawling into a shield grab. That's probably the most effective way in that situation.
---

The grenade is one of the most useful things against Fair and Bair. But, be wary of your shield. It will deteriorate from countless of hits from the Bair and the grenade. The good thing is that G&W will fly pretty far from being hit by the grenade. You'll have some to recuperate the shield and your mind.
---

Be careful of his Dair! He can basically do any attack right out of it. Use your shield in this case. You could be hit by a few things...

1. The key of the Dair.
2. The slam of the key as it hits the ground.
3. Another attack that could be used right out of the Dair.
---

Alright, I'm done for now. I'm excited to see what people have to say about this matchup.

Oh, and, if you see anything wrong with I have posted, please correct me. Whether it's a grammatical problem or if there is something wrong with the techniques that I post.

Thanks, everyone.

 

[abit_rusty]

Great info everyone, I especially had no idea you could grab G&W out of his roll even when he's still flashing. I also know that many of his aerials nullify mortar :/

Also, I've added counterpicks and bans as suggested. I based them off the character threads and input from other smashers.

As for a stage ban against G&W, there's just something about the Yoshi's Island platform that aids him from my experience. He can hit you with a dair right through it and he can keep you juggled if he's below it. He is pretty safe from a lot of your approaches when he's on it, while you're quite endangered by him when you're on it (especially with uair).

 

[Ruuku]

For stage bans, if Rainbow Cruise is a legal stage, ban it. In my opinion, Snake should never be on Rainbow Cruise or Jungle Japes.

 

[StoleUrCar]

For stage bans, if Rainbow Cruise is a legal stage, ban it. In my opinion, Snake should never be on Rainbow Cruise or Jungle Japes.

Depends. I guess RC is logical against DK's recovery, but it seriously destroys Olis, or any other tether for that matter. Snake is forced into the air, yes, but the stage also forces the other player to move. Against chars w/ poor vertical third jumps, Snake can beat them to a certain location ahead of the stage and set up/prepare for their approach. We know how well he can control the stage. Against MK or Pit though, it's kinda suicide and common sense to ban.

Jungle Japes is ******** for Snake, end of story lol.

About the GaW stuff, I really hate how mortar edgeguard is kinda watered down because several of GaW's aerials nullify/neutralize mortar. Grr. At times I find myself cyphering high and lobbing a nade, allowing it to fall straight down towards the ledge, as an alternative edgeguard.

 

[Cecilanius]

About the GaW stuff, I really hate how mortar edgeguard is kinda watered down because several of GaW's aerials nullify/neutralize mortar. Grr. At times I find myself cyphering high and lobbing a nade, allowing it to fall straight down towards the ledge, as an alternative edgeguard.

I think it's better to get a grenade ready as G&W recovers. If he dairs, you can just roll away and he will get hit by the grenade. You could also drop a grenade, roll away, and get an attack ready. I prefer the ftilt. But, anything works. Ftilts are just the quickest.

 

[omegablackmage]

we just recently discussed this matchup, here's the synopsis the gw forums came up with:

Snake: (5/5)

General Matchup:

• Snake is a well built killing machine, having a large variety of moves that can strike gw's light weight frame down quickly. The up tilt and up air will have no problem killing gw vertically at 80%, the ftilt, nair, bair, dair, and jab combo will also kill pretty quickly.
• Snake is also built with many projectiles at his disposal. Most notably the grenades and mortars, but the nikita, c4, and proxy mine can have you dodging around the stage more than focusing on snake.
• Snake has a good amount of range to a lot of his attacks, mainly the ftilt and uptilt, but you will find his aerials and other tilts can be a very large pain to gw, usually matching his own range.
• Snake's recovery is one of the more interesting one's in the game. It has only a certain amount of super armor when he is rising with his cypher, so only aerials with strong knockback like the fair and key will knock him out. Even with the pseudo super armor, this is where you will find you can hurt snake the most.
• Other than trying to tossing fast-falling bairs at you when recovering, snake doesn't have a lot of options to gimp you as most of his projectiles are nullified by up b's.
• Snake is a character with poor movement based combos. You will rarely see him chain multiple moves together across the stage. However, he is good at close combat combos that don't move you anywhere but rack up serious damage. By utilizing the first to jabs, ftilt knee, grab to dthrow he can very quickly rack up the 80 damage he needs to kill you with an up tilt, VERY devastating to gw's survival.
• Due to snake falling fairly quickly, nair combos, up air combos, and the other usual combos work just fine. Snake also doesn't have a quick aerials to interrupt things : )

General Strategies:

• At all costs, avoid being in close combat with snake unless you are POSITIVE you can get a grab, otherwise it isn't worth it. Because what I mentioned above about his close combat combos, you will find yourself dying quickly if you stay too close. And if you can get a grab to dthrow in, keep in mind that snake's tech roll is one of the longest in the game.
• Snake is pegged out to have an amazing keep away game, but personally i think its pretty overrated. Grenades are nice, but for the most part are quite easy to avoid. Most snakes fall into the habit of using their mortar slide at a certain distance, so learn to set that distance up and start charging f smashes.
• Because snake has some projectiles to pressure you, and an amazing close combat game, you need to learn to dominate this middle ground in between the two. You have to be too far for them to mortar slide and too close for tilts or jabs to reach. This is where you have to shine. Learn how to punish with the turtle and dtilt at this range to pressure him. When shielding an ftilt with your back to him you can sh and bair and hit him before he gets his sheild up. Some might use the bacon when in this range, but i feel as though the move is too laggy to bother with.
• When edgeguarding snake learn how to deal with each type of situation. If he up b's close to the stage, grab him or his cypher and don't throw or hit him and he'll die (can't use his up b again). If he recovers low but too far to grab learn to use your dair spike to send him back down (don't forget to slowfall it). If he recovers mid range, then use a strong fair or a forward b (hammers 4-9 knock him out) to give some damage and send him back out). If he recovers too high then you have two options. You can up air him to make him use a laggy aerial and then punish. Or you can wait for an air dodge out of the up b and then up b yourself to send him back out. All of these tactics should cover whatever he does to recover. If he does need to c4 to recover, go out over him and have a fair waiting for him to potentially kill him.
• Dtilt will clank with all of snakes attacks, but his tilts are a few frames faster than the dtilt comes out again so either roll away or run away after this happens. I've found that most of your aerials will cancel out snakes if spaced properly. So learn to keep snake in the air if you can, because you can dominate him very easily here.
• If you land behind him with a key through a mortar (it goes through it) you can usually get your shield up faster than he can ftilt you. Watch out though in case then mix it up and try to grab you. You also need to get good at watching out for when he pulls grenades out and then shields, this also applies for when you bair him. If you have good enough spacing control you can avoid hitting the grenade.
• Snakes hate the up air as they can't move through the air very fast, very good for getting punishing smashes off.
• Learn to make good use of your smashes and keep them fresh, because having a snake at 180 percent can be depressing and demoralizing.

Stages:

• Any stage that moves a lot or has recovery hazards are excellent choice. GW has superior movement and recovery in every way so make use of it. Stages like rainbow cruise (lot of moving around and recovering), frigate orpheon (missing ledges, flipping stage), delphino (stage changes, dtilt locks), and norfair (hazards to put him in the air, not a lot of room to mortar slide/grenade, can get under him for pressure nairs) are all good stages for playing against snake.
• Avoid stages with either low ceilings or incredibly large boundaries. Stages like pictochat, halberd, and hanenbow seem to come in mind. They either can get really low percent kills here or can use the stage to camp or survive well.

 

[napZzz]

omega your helping the snake players out!!!! And I'd believe what was put together here alot of good game and watch players helped put that together, and omega claims to have beaten corts snake 0_0

 

[omegablackmage]

lol enough with the cort thing already, and they could have easily gone to the gw boards to see it, i just figured i'd help add to their discussion.

 

[napZzz]

well you probably just gave them everything the snake players need to know lol.

 

[Cecilanius]

I'm still confused on what to do about G&W's dtilt. You can get G&W close to yourself by pressuring with grenades and such but, it's very quick. If you try to roll past him, he could just turn around and grab.

 

[Neb]

well you probably just gave them everything the snake players need to know lol.

Ah da*n, its only downhill from here, lol.
Thanks a lot OBM.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I'm still confused on what to do about G&W's dtilt. You can get G&W close to yourself by pressuring with grenades and such but, it's very quick. If you try to roll past him, he could just turn around and grab.

Probably the best thing we can do is to try to powershield it. But that might be a tad difficult due to its speed.

BTW Thanks OBM for the analysis from the G&W board.

 

[cutter]

Neb, it makes no difference if this is posted here. Anybody can access our matchup thread. Anybody can copypaste the analysis for others to look at. :E