This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[Azgner]

Well, I dunno if it was mentioned, but I found out today that Snake's nair out-prioritizes Falco's Illusion. So, if he is doing his Illusion, you can hop off the stage, and nair(the height of the hop will depend on the height he is at the time he started move, of course) . If he is at moderate %'s, it's almost certain that he wont be able to recover.

 

[StoleUrCar]

Well, I dunno if it was mentioned, but I found out today that Snake's nair out-prioritizes Falco's Illusion. So, if he is doing his Illusion, you can hop off the stage, and nair(the height of the hop will depend on the height he is at the time he started move, of course) . If he is at moderate %'s, it's almost certain that he wont be able to recover.

Yup Rusty did.

Also, you can catch him out of illusion with your nair.

Btw this thread is ownage. Thanks for taking the initiative to do this Rusty it really helps us with our problem matchups. I don't have much in the way of facing falco but I've got a good deal of a few other chars whenever we get to them. GaW for one.

 

[Azgner]

Yup Rusty did.


Sorry, I was at a cyber cafe and I didn't had much time to read everything before I posted.

 

[Cecilanius]

My first time to be able to read through this thread! I hate being busy.

Anyway...

Once Falco is near the 100% range, stick to the middle of the map. Because, every time you hit him off, I'm sure he will use over+b to get on the stage. Just don't keep spamming the mortar. He will learn not to do this the rest of the match. Get prepared with the smaller stuff, like grenades, before you do any smashes or aerials, just in case Falco will use over+b. If the Falco doesn't use it, don't worry about the explosives behind you. Get an aerial ready right when Falco is about to get back on the stage.

 

[T*H*O*R]

Falco

OK so I just recently played a good Falco player for a solid 5 hours and I feel that with close to 100 matches under my belt I can speak with a fair amount of confidence on this matchup.

Things to Watch For

• Obviously watch for the chaingrab, anywhere under 40% and you are in danger of being CG'd. Watch for CG to dair if you are near the edge or CG to up smash if you are closer to the center
• SH(D)L spam. If you crouch and approach a good Falco will approach you with short hopped dairs. Beware of down tilting while in a crouch because most Falco players expect it and will shield grab you out of it.
• Dair spiking your cypher recovery. This will happen a lot to you if you are not careful. Always recover away from the edge if you are low and then C4 recover to gain some height. If you are high, recover ASAP so you are above him.
• Shine spacing. Falco has a very good spacing game; the large hitbox of his forward smash combined with the tripping/push-back properties of the shine allow for a nasty setups if you are not ready for them.
• Shining your projectiles. Snake's camping game is severely handicapped by the shine. Grenades must be cooked perfectly and nikitas should be aimed above Falco and then dropped if they are to have any effect at all.
• DLX canceled up smashes. Similar to the mortar slide, Falco will often do a dash attack directly into an up smash. This won't propel him across the stage like the mortar slide, but it will rack up some nice damage.
• Phantasm spiking your edgeguarding. This is less common than the others, but if you play Falco a lot this is bound to happen to you. If you mess up the timing of an aerial while Falco uses his side B, it will spike you quite nicely (especially at higher percentages) and will catch you sorely off guard.

What You Can Do to Win

First off, realize that spacing is key in this match. Decide whether or not you are more comfortable approaching or being approached and then adjust your strategy accordingly. Every good Falco will start the match with SHDL, if you choose to approach crawl forward under the lasers, but do not go too close to the Falco. When he stops the spam, immediately mortar slide from your crouch (this may take you some practice) towards him and start to hit him with your tilts and grenades. If you choose to let him approach, simply duck the lasers and await his movement towards you. Like I said above, a good Falco will approach with SH dairs or perhaps a side B in your direction (less likely since you can down tilt Falco out of his Phantasm pretty easily). The dairs can be shield grabbed into a down throw tech-chase, or as I prefer, an up throw into up tilt juggling.

This part of the stock (low damage) is all about hit and run tactics. Constantly spot dodge and roll while dropping grenades and peppering Falco with tilts and jabs. Use your mortar to cover your movements so that if you are grabbed Falco will get blown out of it. Above all, never stay on one side of Falco for too long since you will most likely get grabbed. If you are grabbed by Falco, expect to be taken all the way to the nearest edge and spiked with the dair. If this happens mash B while you are being grabbed so that you may be able to get a grenade out to mess up the chaingrab. This will not work against Falco's with perfectly timed chaingrabs, but it does work well against those who have not yet mastered the technique. If you get spiked, DI your cypher away from the stage so that Falco cannot spike you again. Once you near the end of your recovery, C4 recover and DI your second up B over the stage so that you cannot be spiked again.

Once you are above 40% you can play much more aggressively with Falco: pummel him with tilts and throws off the stage. Falco's recovery is one of the most easily gimped in the game if you know what you are doing and getting him off the stage is an easy way to get big damage or early kills. If he tries to recover high, send mortars into the air and juggle him with up tilts and up airs. An alternative to juggling is to use the nair/bair to knock Falco off the side again to begin the process again. If Falco tries to recover on a level with the stage, drop a grenade on the ground near the edge and then jump off the side and execute the nair. If you miss with the nair Falco will hit the grenade will get blown up, if you hit with the nair, you will most likely knock Falco far enough away from the edge that he will not be able to get back.

As far a racking up damage is concerned, Falco will try to hit you as much as possible with his nair, his dair, his AAA combo to shine/forward smash, his shine to tech-chase (assuming you are tripped), and his DLX canceled up smash to juggling. At this point (after you cannot be chaingrabbed) use grenade countering as much as possible. Falco will try to keep close to you and will assault you with many physical attacks which will detonate grenades. Use your tilts to set up for juggling or edgeguarding and be aware of the shine as a means for Falco to get his rhythm back if you are in control of the match. If you become airborne, drop C4 and detonate as a deterrent to his juggling and air dodge his up air, his nair, and his dair. SH bair is also a common tactic for Falco while you are grounded, but you can up tilt or shield grab him out of this if you are quick.

Falco will try to kill you by knocking off the side with a side or down smash and then gimping your recovery with a dair. Remember to always recover as high as possible and you should do alright. Falco's smashes are strong, but with good DI you should last a very long time against the down and side smashes. Beware the up smash since it comes out quickly and will kill you are very respectable levels. You should also beware of being juggled with the up air since this move will kill you if you are high up in the air.

All in all, this match truly depends on your defense/approach game at the beginning of each new stock. Keep yourself from getting chaingrabbed and spiked early, and the power of your tilts and your edgeguarding should get the better of Falco. His abysmal recovery and relatively light weight compared to Snake make this matchup easier for you to deal with and you should be able to get some early kills by keeping him off the stage or in the air as much as possible.

Finally, visit the Falco boards on the SWF forums and look at the matchup guide to Snake there (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202). It's always good to know what your opponent thinks of doing to keep your on your toes.

http://musiclikedirt.com/wp-content/MP3/07/Superstar.mp3

 

[bman in 2288]

I like how you approached the matchup. Good ideas that are clear and concise. Detailed exactly what I would do if I were playing Falco (...he's my secondary). Good job, THOR.

 

[Angel01]

i cherish this thread..*tear* helps a lot playing against pickachu.

 

[abit_rusty]

O.o Dang T*H*O*R nailed it on the head...and a touch of Lupe to square it off? Haha, too good.

Hope you don't mind if I directly quote you, thanks for saving me the time of summing it up. Also hope you don't mind if I add a small tidbit on edge guarding.

Edit: I think we've done well summing up the Falco matchup, expect a new character soon. I'll take requests though.

 

[bman in 2288]

Lupe. Win.

I say we aim at Olimar next. Why? Because I have ridiculously little experience against the captain (if any at all).

 

[abit_rusty]

Lupe. Win.

I say we aim at Olimar next. Why? Because I have ridiculously little experience against the captain (if any at all).

Had the same thing in mind. I gripe a lot about him but I haven't faced one in a long time. No doubt a good one would destroy me >.>. So, Olimar it is.

I will just go ahead and quote a post I made a while ago in the weekly character discussion thread on Snake.

Nominate Olimar for a Snake counter.

Snake's weight works against him here, since Olimar has quite the juggling ability on the heavy characters. Right off the bat, at 0%, he can do an inescapable up throw to running upsmash (chasing your DI). Quick 25-30% damage depending on the pikmin. He can do this at least once more, IIRC, until you're able to DI far enough/air dodge out of it. At mid percents he can dthrow to fair, though this can be air dodged, but it still allows him to pop snake up where he's most vulnerable. Oli's uair, nair, and utilt can also juggle well, and both have an an extended hit box. At low percents he can combo from an utilt or falling uair/nair with a few jabs and easily re-grab or smash. Oli is surprisingly speedy as well, allowing him to follow up with the aerial punishment.

Olimar's grab range is excellent, especially with the blue pikmin. Speaking of which, bthrow with the blue pikmin is tremendously strong even against heavyweights like Snake. I've gotten kills (and been killed) w/ fresh blue pikmin bthrow from mid stage, and otherwise it easily sets up for an edgeguard.

Speaking of Pikmin, the little devils provide, for the most part, a meat shield against Snake's grenades/nikita if he keeps them thrown. They set off mines easily too. If you don't approach, the latched pikmin obviously will rack up damage. You can swipe them off with attacks, and they can die from the explosives (except Reds), but it takes only a moment to replenish the minions, and smart Oli's won't waste all their pikmin in one go.

Finally, there's Olimars smashes and aerials. All disjointed hitboxes, all come out rather quickly.. (the yellow pikmin have an extended hitbox, works well for fair and bair, but that's beside the point). Because of this, he's reasonably hard to punish even with a power shield since he'll often be out of range. The fsmash can cycle quickly, deterring an attempt to attack in between the intervals. Dsmash hits both sides instantaneously, and is a quick gtfo move. His uair's multiple hits catch you out of an airdodge coming from above. His dair can meteor spike if you come from below/low horizontal angle. His fair and bair are good for spacing game, especially considering the fact that Oli can SH, throw a pikmin and do a fair both before landing. Not to mention all his smashes pack a punch.

This combination of grab combos, juggling, strong aerials and smashes, a more then decent camping game, and deterrent from projectiles, make him a great contender against Snake. Oli just needs to use his attributes to rack up damage and finish with a well spaced/punishing smash or bthrow.

Of course we can't ignore the downsides: certainly there is Olimar's gimpable recovery and his light weight, and the fact that an Olimar without pikmin is like a fat kid in dodgeball. I'm not sure if that's enough to outweigh his pros though.

Discuss counter strategies?

He's a tough nut to crack. Ftilt spam can only go so far and gets predictable, no matter how many times my friend tells him that is how you beat one -.-.

 

[PKboy89]

The hardest part of this match is the approach...the only thing olimar has to do is point the little yellow stick at you to stop your approach...spacing is very important in this match as well...Olimar's smashes all have amazing range and are very quick, getting punished by Olimar is NASTY...you want to try to keep distanced with mines, grenades, c4's and mortars and wait for the right time...draw him to you and punish him...I know, Snake should always be doing that, but I think Snake vs Olimar os probably his most defensive match...

A quick up tilt gets rid of his pikmin, and be sure to get rid of those nasty white ones.
Try to keep an eye on the pikmin line...you know his yellow ones are his best ones for aerial assaults, he will try to juggle you with those because of their disjointed hitboxes, he will save the blue ones at high percents to get throw kills, if you are high and see he has a blue one next, do not get thrown with it, and try not to get hit with it, they are killing machines in general. Know that if he has a white one next, he will probably throw it, or try to grab you with it, Olimar players will try to use each type of pikmin to their fullest potential, and the white ones are horrible for knockback and damage. The key to defeating a character, is understanding that character...you need hide in the box and spy before you assault...wow that was cheesy...

 

[abit_rusty]

I agree that this is a defensive match on Snake's part, but it can be very annoying when pikmin are latching on to you. Remember if you shield pikmin, they do not stick at all, they just fly past you.

Also nice move mentioning the pikmin types. I once played Olimar as a secondary and I know that proficient Olimars keep track of their pikmin. You can count on them to know the unique properties of each one and know how to make the best use out of that property. With that said, you can sort of predict the Olimar's action through his pikmin line. This is not set in stone obviously, because at any given moment the Oli can just throw it or use it for something else. The pikmin cycle quickly usually so you have to stay on your toes too.

 

[PKboy89]

yea, and olimar is in control of his strats, he can switch pikmin any time

 

[Cecilanius]

Heres a little info from another thread I posted in...

I don't think you should mortar slide as much against Olimar. I would only use it when he is above you. My friend used to main Olimar. He LOVES to grab every chance he can get. I would just practice jumping and jumping into air dodges. But, mostly, jumping into air dodges. Because, everyone knows that the Olimar user will think of using a fair after you jump.

I wouldn't try to do my attacks fully either. (ftilts and such) I would basically do one attack and then do an instant airdodge out of the way of the Olimar. An attack into a grab works too.

Side step dodging usually doesn't work with Olimar. His grab comes back. Thats why you should get used to using instant airdodges.

Now here's some more info...

Looking back at what I posted, side step dodging is actually pretty useful when you are at a distance away from Olimar or if you are right next to him. When you are right next to Olimar, his grab goes out and comes back. If you side step dodge, the pikmin will be past you for a little bit. You just need to use ftilts everytime you are right next to Olimar and he tries to grab. But, you need to use the side step dodge before using the ftilts. This works great when Olimar tries to grab you with white pikmin. Because, those white ones go out far.

Whenever you hit Olimar off the edge, just edgehug edgehug edgehug. Even if you think he might be able to get back on. You do not even need to do it quickly because if he tries to use Up+B, it will most likely go above you. But, if Olimar is below the stage, wait until you know when the Olimar is going to use Up+B and edgehug. I would suggest using a 180% turn of your joystick to edgehug. Its more efficient but, it is harder to do. Practice edgehugging to get used to the timing so you won't have to use a 180% turn of the joystick.


When getting pikmin thrown at you

If Olimar ever throws pikmin at you, get your side step dodging ready to use. You might need to use it a couple of times in a row. Just get used to the timing of each pikmin.

I still have trouble with the white ones every once in a while. Whenever the white ones are thrown at you, they will most likely stick to Snake's chest. An utilt can get rid of the white pikmin almost immediately.

I wouldn't take too much time trying to get pikmin off. If the Olimar player sees you trying to get them off, he will most likely run up and grab you. Take about two hits for the pikmin and get ready to instant airdodge out of the way of Olimar. Even if a pikmin is still on you.

Snake is so much heavier than Olimar, you can kill Olimar at around 100% on Battlefield by using ftilt. So getting pikmin thrown on you doesn't matter as much.


In the air

Do not try to do any aerial when you are above Olimar. The only advice that will work is to fast fall and air dodge repeatedly. Olimar's aerials have more priority because when you try to hit through Olimar's aerials, you aren't hitting Olimar, you are hitting his pikmin. So there is no use in trying to hit through the pikmin. Just DI, airdodge, fastfall, whatever you can do to get out of the way of Olimar's aerials. Heck, even using a b reversal can help out if used right.

Extra

Keep a mortar ready if you are a safe distance away from Olimar. Don't do it if you know he can grab you. It could be used as a little intimidation if its a flat stage. Use it more when you are somewhere like Battlefield. Its helped me countless of times. Because, we all know that when there are platforms, Olimar will drop down and use fair.

Keep grenades ready at anytime during the match, it could restrain Olimar's grabs. I suggest using Z to drop them from the air. Because, when Olimar sees someone in the air, he is going to use an aerial almost immediately. The grenade will explode from the first hit of an aerial even though his aerials don't pack a big punch. Just be careful where you drop them. So, you won't kill yourself.

Mines can really mess an Olimar player up. Especially if using by an edge. If they try to get back up they will jump. But, that will make Olimar float for a while. You have some time to use mortar or an utilt. I wouldn't use Nair as much because of Olimar's fair.

I would save the C4 to be used in the air. Once its almost done dropping, make it explode. I'm sure that the Olimar won't try to use an uair after almost getting hit from C4. Olimar can die at a pretty low percentage from C4. You could also place it on the ground for when Olimar is going to throw a pikmin or when he tries to grab you. Olimar gets pushed a little bit forward evertime he does each of the two. I bet no Olimar player even notices the little push from throwing pikmin or grabbing. I've killed my friend countless times because of the two.

Only use nikita when you are at a safe distance away from Olimar. I wouldn't use it when you are next to him. Don't try to hit Olimar directly. You can always just drop it near him because Olimar flys pretty far from any hit of the nikita. It usually hits Olimar off the edge, which is perfect for more edgehugging!

Getting on the edge

If Olimar hits you off the edge, just use the cypher to get over him. Once you drop, remember to use your airdodges over and over while DI'ing.

If you just grab onto the edge, hurry onto the stage by jumping into another jump. The second jump should have an airdodge combined with it. (Olimar's dair can be pretty lethal if he has the right pikmin to use.) The airdodge can help get past an uair or a bair. It'll give you some space to fight once again. I wouldn't try to roll on the stage because Olimar's smashes are instantaneous. He could use the dsmash even though you haven't rolled all the way onto the stage. Hitting him to recover could work some of the times, but, I wouldn't use it often. Jumping into an airdodge is most efficient.

End

Even though Olimar looks cute, you HAVE to be the biggest jerk to him to win. (edgehugging) His recovery is terrible. So abuse the fact that his recovery is bad. That will be Olimar's biggest downfall. You can kill Olimar by hitting him off the edge even with low percentage.

 

[Krayn]

Pretty good so far. Cant wait till u do marth.

 

[napZzz]

Walk with your ftilt and spam aaa combo. Dont feel cheap, he's the one whos broken with cheap spammy attacks.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Walk with your ftilt and spam aaa combo. Dont feel cheap, he's the one whos broken with cheap spammy attacks.

ooh that stung and I was gonna give my advice

Fine whatever. lol

Ok well, firstly, yeah don't get slide happy, otherwise I'll win easily.

Throw grenades is nice since I can throw them back and feed you to my miniones as you throw and prime them.

Basically the worst thing besides just hogging the edge is a dodged throw and nailing with all four hits on Dair.
Up tilt can lead to a Nair combo at some percents and it just kill. And if you want try and forward tilt and jab Olimar to death. I'll laugh. You can just try squat at Olimar with a forward tilt over and over but a simple purple pikmin will throw you off.

Also that combo from 0% is old and out the window.

0%-> Grab, Down throw, Forward smash, Grab, down throw, Nair and Up B. That's almost 50%. Nothing to Snake with his weight but notice I never had to use the up smash and that baby is gonna be fresh and ready once you hit 100%

Your best chance is to try and dodge a grab and attack otherwise you might as well be pikmin food.

And yes I accept that I die like a snake without a cypher if someone holds the edge.

 

[Cecilanius]

Another thing...

There is a combo my friend learned from the Olimar forums.

It goes like this, down grab, jump, fair, down grab, jump fair.

If you are at 0%. The Olimar will get you once with this combo. But, you can get out of it the next time he tries to use it. To get out of it just jump-airdodge as soon as Olimar throws you on the ground and you are in mid air.

If you don't know what I mean by jump-airdodge: Its doing a jump and immediately after using the air dodge. You need to press jump and dodge almost simultaneously. Just press the jump before you do the dodge.

 

[abit_rusty]

Good info guys, many thanks for your input.

I got a friend of mine who once mained Olimar to play me for several matches. A few general things I found out:

Olimar does better on small stages where Snake doesn't have much room to outmaneuver his pikmin and disjointed attacks. Olimar isn't slow, he can keep the pressure on an airborne Snake pretty badly, especially on small stages where he doesn't have much room to run. Once, I got combo'd by a falling nair->jab->utilt->uair->up+b with a full chain of pikmin. Bad DI on my part but sheesh that hurt.

I found I did worse on stages that I once relied on like battlefield and lylat because the platforms sort of barred me from getting inside Oli's comfort zone due to his long-reach smashes. Best thing to do on small stages, is to even the odds by limiting his mobility with mines and C4. Also, always be throwing cooked nades or leaving nades in your path, it keeps him at bay pretty well.

I did much better on FD and Smashville however, namely because the open area allowed for a great element to your advantage in this matchup, the mortar. (As you mentioned, Cecilanius). Note, not mortar sliding. Just shooting a mortar out every once in a while, or strategically, helps a ton against Olimar. The mortar provides a surprisingly good defense against Oli's ground approaches. He can't really do much besides toss a pikmin if you run behind the path of your mortar fall, unless he wants to get hit by it as it falls. He also can't grab you in the general vicinity where you did usmash because the mortar will land on him and allow you to escape. A nice trick is to mortar, shield drop a nade in place and roll backwards, then cook a nade and throw towards Oli.

This may have been just my matches, but I think nades help a lot in this matchup when used offensively. Throw and cook them more, rather than relying on grenade counters. Grenade Counter does not work consistently (I haven't gotten it to trigger at all) against Oli's fair or bair. It does work against dsmash and fsmash if you're close enough. But in general, don't allow the Oli to stay in one spot, and if he does, keep up the pressure with grenades to rack up damage.

 

[FreakoFreako]

Sorry to break the convo on Olimar, but what's the best option if the Falco uses Side B (The illusion thing)? I didn't find it under Falco portion of the post. I tried grenade dropping but it just fell on the ground and didn't explode.

 

[abit_rusty]

Sorry to break the convo on Olimar, but what's the best option if the Falco uses Side B (The illusion thing)? I didn't find it under Falco portion of the post. I tried grenade dropping but it just fell on the ground and didn't explode.

It's in the highlighted yellow portion. Or is that not what you're looking for?

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Another thing... down grab, jump, fair, down grab, jump fair.

Yeah there's a reason I never do that combo because if the opponent is smart and air dodges like you said at the beginning you just missed a move and now are gonna get hurt.

Olimar does better on small stages where Snake doesn't have much room to outmaneuver his pikmin... This may have been just my matches, but I think nades help a lot in this matchup when used offensively. Throw and cook them more, rather than relying on grenade counters...

Rusty I'm agreeing with you on the small stage being Olimar's cup of tea, but the nades I just think are trouble for Snake. I Play Snake enough, 2ndary, and throwing grenades are almost just better off not being used IMHO. Olimar will be hurling pikmin while you pull the pins and cook, plus getting one grenade to explode isn't gonna equal up the damage a latched pikmin would.

2nd part of advice, banned Luigi's Mansion. Seriously. Just don't play Olimar there. If he's in the house you better knock it out or you'll have no safety. Pillars block nades and not pikmin. Test it. Also Up smash can be done for a lot of damage by Olimar if you are in the bottom level.

I like this thread keep up the good work.

 

[Cecilanius]

Thanks, Dr.Hyde for patching some of our tips up. Its good to get advice from someone who actually mains both players.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

No Problem, I appreciate this thread as much as anyone here. Although I don't post much about snake I like reading most of the threads.

Besides I know Olimar is a possible counter for some people but sometimes Olimar gets destroyed because of the Mortar. Watch one of the rematches with DSF and he just mortar spams and wins. No offense to DSF I just like Mr.X and Futile better.

 

[abit_rusty]

Hm yes I see your point on the nades, but I thought only red ones can nullify them? If you just time your shield well or else just hop over the pikmin, nades are still a good way to rack up damage on him. Plus the Oli isn't just going to let the nade blow him up, stalling his pikmin spam (and possibly killing pikmin around him). I guess I just seem to find latched pikmin less of a threat than leaving myself open when approaching and getting punished bad, maybe it's just me. I mean you can't really rely as much on mortars on small stages w/ platforms.

 

[PKboy89]

The nades still help, if he throws a pikmin and they collide, it still sets up a wall between you, and Olimar, and it still puts pressure on him.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Just stopping by and doing a little reading. I haven't necessarily picked up Snake (though I am thinking about it to counter Metaknight), but I do second Olimar.

Just from my observations in the grenade department, another noteworthy thing is that if Olimar is using Pikmin Toss, and you throw your grenade, the Pikmin is going to hit the grenade and stop it, most likely causing it to explode on yourself.

I've found that Snakes who want to use grenades against Olimar just end up hurting themselves more. My two cents is if you have a Pikmin Toss spammy Olimar, Mortar Slide.

It will knock the Pikmin off of you and although the mortar may be eaten up by Pikmin and therefore not hit Olimar, chances are you will still hit him with either the dash or the placing of the mortar on the ground. Olimar does not want to be in the air so it puts you in a good position.

 

[abit_rusty]

Just stopping by and doing a little reading. I haven't necessarily picked up Snake (though I am thinking about it to counter Metaknight), but I do second Olimar.

Just from my observations in the grenade department, another noteworthy thing is that if Olimar is using Pikmin Toss, and you throw your grenade, the Pikmin is going to hit the grenade and stop it, most likely causing it to explode on yourself.

I've found that Snakes who want to use grenades against Olimar just end up hurting themselves more. My two cents is if you have a Pikmin Toss spammy Olimar, Mortar Slide.

It will knock the Pikmin off of you and although the mortar may be eaten up by Pikmin and therefore not hit Olimar, chances are you will still hit him with either the dash or the placing of the mortar on the ground. Olimar does not want to be in the air so it puts you in a good position.

Hm yes that's logical to mortar slide if he's pikmin-throw happy, but if he's short hop throwing them he's got no lag as he lands so he can intercept with a grab. Still, good advice.

So far it seems that any thing that has needed to be said about Olimar has, it's unfortunate that we don't have more Snakes who have a good deal of experience against him; I will edit it in the future if there's more response. Anyway, I'll start writing Olimar's summary soon, and perhaps we can move right along.

 

[Azgner]

hmm, i was wondering, the pikimin are killed(or at least knocked away) when they are hit by an attack right?
so maybe, by holding A, you could avoid being hit by the pikimin(unless they hit your leg or something) and force olimar to approach. and if he insists in keeping his distance, you can throw a grenade at him when he stops to pick up more pikimin. just a theory, never tested it though.

 

[abit_rusty]

hmm, i was wondering, the pikimin are killed(or at least knocked away) when they are hit by an attack right?
so maybe, by holding A, you could avoid being hit by the pikimin(unless they hit your leg or something) and force olimar to approach. and if he insists in keeping his distance, you can throw a grenade at him when he stops to pick up more pikimin. just a theory, never tested it though.

I tested this. It works somewhat consistently. The thing is, you have to continuously hit and hold A (you can't just hold A because each pikmin stops a rapid jab once it hits it). However, at times the pikmin can fly over your head and latch onto your back, or even your ankles..don't ask me how but that's what happened. So, yea you could sort of stop pikmin throw spam but sometimes the pikmin get through. You do accumulate damage in this way but it's slow over time unless a white one gets a hold of you.

Also, while doing these tests I concluded a few ways to shake off latched pikmin:

-Up-tilt. It clears all pikmin off of you, and usually kills them. The problem lies in the stale move property, in that it can drastically reduce utilt's killing power.

-Jab. It clears all the pikmin in front of you and on your feet, but it doesn't get rid of pikmin on the shoulder or head. It usually only knocks them away and does not kill them.

-Grenade. This is the interesting one. Simply pull out a nade and shield immediately. The pikmin hitting you will trigger it and kill all of them. The problem is, red ones are immune to this.

Of course you can shake off pikmin with other attacks but I think these are the quickest/safest to use.

 

[Azrealdnt]

Can the next one be Wario?

 

[Cecilanius]

Can the next one be Wario?

Wario

Wario

*Ties headband around eyes as tightly as he can*

 

[DanGR]

LOL^ I'd put that in my sig, but it's too big. ^_^

 

[Kashakunaki]

hmm, i was wondering, the pikimin are killed(or at least knocked away) when they are hit by an attack right?
so maybe, by holding A, you could avoid being hit by the pikimin(unless they hit your leg or something) and force olimar to approach. and if he insists in keeping his distance, you can throw a grenade at him when he stops to pick up more pikimin. just a theory, never tested it though.

It takes Olimar a little over a second to pluck all six Pikmin. No way you're pulling a gernade, cooking it (or not), and hitting him with one.

Olimar's tend to be patient. You usually won't force a Pikmin Toss spammy Olimar to approach. If I had a Snake fighting me doing what you just mention, I'd have to stop myself from laughing. Olimar will win that camp battle hands down.

Hm yes that's logical to mortar slide if he's pikmin-throw happy, but if he's short hop throwing them he's got no lag as he lands so he can intercept with a grab. Still, good advice.

So far it seems that any thing that has needed to be said about Olimar has, it's unfortunate that we don't have more Snakes who have a good deal of experience against him; I will edit it in the future if there's more response. Anyway, I'll start writing Olimar's summary soon, and perhaps we can move right along.

In regards to your first paragraph, that's just something you'd have to deal with. It's not like, "Short hop Pikmin Toss Pikmin on Snake forcing him to Mortar Slide. This will give you a grab," is a solid strategy echoed throughout the Olimar community. No, if that happened it would because that Olimar player just thought to do it at the time. If they do it again, then think of a different approach.

I tested this. It works somewhat consistently. The thing is, you have to continuously hit and hold A (you can't just hold A because each pikmin stops a rapid jab once it hits it). However, at times the pikmin can fly over your head and latch onto your back, or even your ankles..don't ask me how but that's what happened. So, yea you could sort of stop pikmin throw spam but sometimes the pikmin get through. You do accumulate damage in this way but it's slow over time unless a white one gets a hold of you.

Also, while doing these tests I concluded a few ways to shake off latched pikmin:

-Up-tilt. It clears all pikmin off of you, and usually kills them. The problem lies in the stale move property, in that it can drastically reduce utilt's killing power.

-Jab. It clears all the pikmin in front of you and on your feet, but it doesn't get rid of pikmin on the shoulder or head. It usually only knocks them away and does not kill them.

-Grenade. This is the interesting one. Simply pull out a nade and shield immediately. The pikmin hitting you will trigger it and kill all of them. The problem is, red ones are immune to this.

Of course you can shake off pikmin with other attacks but I think these are the quickest/safest to use.

I'd actually recommend not worrying about Pikmin being thrown on to you (unless they are white). They do some damage (again, unless they are white) but it isn't lethal. Olimar players want you to sit there and try to out camp them. Also, a lot of players will throw Pikmin in hopes you will try to shake them off, and then punish you during your lag.

For example, I will Pikmin Toss two or so Pikmin at you, then run at you. You're going to Up Tilt to get the Pikmin off, but during that time I've grabbed you. Congratulations, you stopped the annoying Pikmin and now are going to get grab comboed like a *****.

If Olimar is spamming Pikmin throw, just approach him intelligently. Often times you will knock off the Pikmin or majorly reduce their damage by simply engaging Olimar. By doing so you don't leave yourself open for attack, go on the offensive, and minimize the effective of the toss. Gg.

Hope that helps.

 

[Barbeque]

you gave DK 5 stars and Pikachu only 4?

wtf...

 

[abit_rusty]

you gave DK 5 stars and Pikachu only 4?

wtf...

So do you disagree with both ratings or just pikachu? A mere "wtf" doesn't help me see your side, and this is a discussion thread after all.

I rated pikachu lower because he simply does not have as great of an approach game against Snake compared to DK. You can fend his thunder jolts off with jab, and grenade counter any QAC'd aerials. DK's got ftilt, downb, bair, dtilt, all hard to punish. DK has a much better off stage edgegaurding game, better KO moves, and can gimp snake very easily. If you play carefully against a pika and not let him overwhelm you with fast attacks, it's not as tough as DK. If you want to argue your side feel free, just make it more coherent than a simple disagreeing remark.

I've played and beaten one of the best (if not, the best) pika in the midwest if you're doubting my experience.

 

[PKboy89]

yea, I find dk much harder, close combat wise, dk out ranges pikachu and juggles snake much better then pikachu I think...with his crazy uptilt and deadly up smash...once you cancel out pikachu's camping properties he isn't that hard I think. With DK have 3 meteor smashes that can all be used in different ways and very unpredictable sometimes, and with snake's recovery, dk is a deadly force when it comes to offstage combat.

 

[Azgner]

It takes Olimar a little over a second to pluck all six Pikmin. No way you're pulling a gernade, cooking it (or not), and hitting him with one.

Olimar's tend to be patient. You usually won't force a Pikmin Toss spammy Olimar to approach. If I had a Snake fighting me doing what you just mention, I'd have to stop myself from laughing. Olimar will win that camp battle hands down.



In regards to your first paragraph, that's just something you'd have to deal with. It's not like, "Short hop Pikmin Toss Pikmin on Snake forcing him to Mortar Slide. This will give you a grab," is a solid strategy echoed throughout the Olimar community. No, if that happened it would because that Olimar player just thought to do it at the time. If they do it again, then think of a different approach.



I'd actually recommend not worrying about Pikmin being thrown on to you (unless they are white). They do some damage (again, unless they are white) but it isn't lethal. Olimar players want you to sit there and try to out camp them. Also, a lot of players will throw Pikmin in hopes you will try to shake them off, and then punish you during your lag.

For example, I will Pikmin Toss two or so Pikmin at you, then run at you. You're going to Up Tilt to get the Pikmin off, but during that time I've grabbed you. Congratulations, you stopped the annoying Pikmin and now are going to get grab comboed like a *****.

If Olimar is spamming Pikmin throw, just approach him intelligently. Often times you will knock off the Pikmin or majorly reduce their damage by simply engaging Olimar. By doing so you don't leave yourself open for attack, go on the offensive, and minimize the effective of the toss. Gg.

Hope that helps.

well, it does ^^
anyway, the next one can be wario or metaknight?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Small tip on Olimar, given chance always play on a stage with platforms as it degrades Olimar's game quite the bit. An Olimar on FD is much worse then an Olimar on Battlefield.

 

[abit_rusty]

I've updated this with the Olimar summary.

Also, I agree that the next match-up should be Wario or Meta.

Wario does surprisingly well against Snake, then again this is coming from me who uses Wario to counter Snake lol. I myself have never played against a good Wario.

There's two sides to the Metaknight standoff. Many say he's an easy match-up because he's light and grenade countering takes care of everything. I've played all sort of MK's, and I say that a smart metaknight won't get fooled by grenade counters so easily. He'll often go for the VERY nicely-ranged dashing grab to get Snake airborne and go for far-offstage kills, especially with shuttle loop. Good MK's do not make themselves predictable with fair/tornado spam either. He's expected to be high on the tier list for a reason.

Thoughts? If not decided soon I'll make my choice.