Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Tobi_Whatever]

Slight edit came in!

Hmm, I suppose the physical idea is you're doing the dash input correctly you just aren't taking your thumb off the stick fast enough.

What I will mention which is annoying with pivot dsmashing manually... it's really easy to do a perfect pivot turn around dsmash...
Which in itself is pretty amazing good/technical, but it's the result of inconsistency, I hate that #_#

Moral of the story maybe down tilt is the truth. I get dash forward fairs/bairs or paralyzers at medium percent (if they air dodge while you're facing backwards too early, wave bounce paralyzer for ez win), it's step forward gives it considerable range Tilt stick makes me appreciate it a lot more than I used to as when I'm down tilting from time to time accidentally still, a lot of times I go "huh, dsmashing would've been bad/got me killed" or "wow dtilt is that much faster/flat bodies are amazing".

But dTilt has so much endlag, 7 frames more compared to fTilt. It comes out 2 frames later too and if you tilt your fTilt the damage is the same. Is the range difference that significant?

 

[Shaya]

It's also a much better trajectory for us unless ftilt is hitting them into the ground (it's 60 degrees, nairs 55, ftilt will be 45).
And we also squat down to lame-crouch levels during it. So while I'd probably take flip jump nerfs for an end lag buff on it, it kinda makes sense it's riskier. Contrast to Sheik's down tilt, ours is like twice the horizontal range.

Also the tipper does 2% less (75% or so KB) damage and hence "combos" better.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'm not getting the point of full hop. Isn't the problem with short hop being that our aerials wont hit them on the ground? Full hop wouldn't change that.

 

[Shaya]

Problem with our "short hop" is how vulnerable we are while we wait to use an aerial that can hit people on the ground.
Full hopping requires characters to "jump" to punish us while we're most vulnerable instead.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I feel like that would just give them time to get underneath us and try to punish our landing.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I feel like that would just give them time to get underneath us and try to punish our landing.

Once you're falling down, you have the same commitment as with a short hop. You can do an aerial, you can jump, you can do a properly spaced aerial and you can flip jump or airdodge.
The idea is not bad, and the opponent can see the aerial coming anyway, no matter if short hop or full hop.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

That was kinda my point. All that's different is the opponent has more time to choose their option if we full hop.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That was kinda my point. All that's different is the opponent has more time to choose their option if we full hop.

No, the point is that you can't get attacked while rising, which is the biggest problem with our short hop aerials.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

But they can. They just have to jump.

 

[Shaya]

The caveat here is that we also have some of the best aerial specs, if not the best aerial specs.
The rise of our full hop is fast. Our maximum aerial mobility is crazy. Our fast fall acceleration and maximum is crazy too.

And the opponent jumping to engage you is likely under better terms than dealing with their invincible up smashes, needles, etc.

 

[Peahnuts]

Moral of the story maybe down tilt is the truth. I get dash forward fairs/bairs or paralyzers at medium percent (if they air dodge while you're facing backwards too early, wave bounce paralyzer for ez win), it's step forward gives it considerable range Tilt stick makes me appreciate it a lot more than I used to as when I'm down tilting from time to time accidentally still, a lot of times I go "huh, dsmashing would've been bad/got me killed" or "wow dtilt is that much faster/flat bodies are amazing".

Regarding what you said about dtilt, makes me think how godly zss would be if we had hitboxes that hit closer to the ground considering she's close to if not top tier already, even with her hitboxes that miss 1/4 of the cast if they're crouching/doing an action.

 

[Remzi]

Bengalz against Will. The habit of throwing out a nair/bair (that was safe-ish) but immediately and nearly always doing a defensive maneuver (like dashing away), gets easily and to an extent HEAVILY punished by every mobile character.

After "bad jumping" this is probably the next most prominent "poor ZSS habit".

Thanks Shaya, I'm gonna rewatch that set with this observation in mind.

I appreciate all the support btw guys, I terribly underperformed though. Can't wait til TBH5 to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

 

[hiROI]

Any tips on landing safely? I know that we have our double jump, zair, FF nair and DownSpecial. But what do y'all find best to land back on stage?

 

[BatShark]

Any tips on landing safely? I know that we have our double jump, zair, FF nair and DownSpecial. But what do y'all find best to land back on stage?

Generally being tricky with second jump, air dodges, and Down B does the trick for me most of the time. Few characters have the speed to catch up and punish us on a well-timed flip kick. Crossing people up when you are landing in helpless works a ton for me as well, that has saved my bacon more times than I can count.

 

[J-Breeze]

So if anyone can answer, how do you play the neutral effectively? I feel like I have so much trouble trying to figure out what to do at times. Sometimes I feel like I'm just throwing out nair and zair like crazy and I get punished for it a ton.

 

[CatStache]

Coming back to the game after only playing it off and on for the past months. I'm ready to take it more seriously than before and actually put some effort into learning how to play a more advanced ZSS. The grind is on.

Also, @ Tobi_Whatever Can you direct me to your thread about combos? I can't seem to find it.

EDIT: Team Liquid Nairo HYPE!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@Nairo signed by Team Liquid? Holy ****, congratulations!
May you bring hype and fame to my favourite team in eSports history.

@ CatStache here you go

 

[pichuthedk]

@ Dr. Tuen I have noticed that there is sort of a rhythm involved when you do the pp.

Generally I found it alot easier to literally do the initial dash and then just flick the control stick in the other direction because you let go of the stick so it returns to neutral automatically.

 

[CatStache]

Zero's video about ZSS being second in the game:

Riiiiight.

 

[Ian Viola]

Zero's video about ZSS being second in the game:

Riiiiight.

Get ready to see more frauds like me then I guess lol

 

[Xelion]

Zero's video about ZSS being second in the game:

Riiiiight.

Well then, I wonder if he's going to play her now, if so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets some minor nerfs even though she's fine as is. In my opinion I feel like they should leave the game as is and buff other characters.

 

[David Viran]

Well then, I wonder if he's going to play her now, if so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets some minor nerfs even though she's fine as is. In my opinion I feel like they should leave the game as is and buff other characters.

I've seen him use her on stream before and no offense to zero but he's a lot better at fighting zss than he is at playing her. If he actually put time into her I'm sure he could get amazing with her tho.

 

[Xelion]

I've seen him use her on stream before and no offense to zero but he's a lot better at fighting zss than he is at playing her. If he actually put time into her I'm sure he could get amazing with her tho.

True, just like anyone can do with almost all the characters in this game.

 

[pichuthedk]

TFW even debuzz agrees with your take on the zss rosa MU, I always felt in my heart that we murder her in that MU.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

@ Dr. Tuen I have noticed that there is sort of a rhythm involved when you do the pp.

Generally I found it alot easier to literally do the initial dash and then just flick the control stick in the other direction because you let go of the stick so it returns to neutral automatically.

That is essentially what I am doing, it's just not happening fast enough. I just need to practice more, I usually try this for an hour... get frustrated, and work on more fundamental aspects of my gameplay. But man... I really want that PP Dsmash in my life. I'm slowly working up my ability to get reads for the dsmash, but I'm not always able to get the micro-positioning where it needs to be for the punish.

@ Shaya
Backwards jumping and air dodge short hop aerials are TOTALLY THE TRUTH. I've been having a field day with them on the ladder. Ness' dash attack whiffs if you are jumping backwards. So do a few other attacks I'm not remembering now. And cross up back airs are just really great since you are already carrying your momentum away from your foe. I don't hit them too frequently yet cause I'm super obvious about it... cause it's a new skill, and new skills are fun!

I've also been looking at short hop, air dodge, and landing into some sort of response. The delay sometimes gets people to drop their shield for a nice up tilt or boost kick.

Bah, I wish I had more time to practice!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That is essentially what I am doing, it's just not happening fast enough. I just need to practice more, I usually try this for an hour... get frustrated, and work on more fundamental aspects of my gameplay. But man... I really want that PP Dsmash in my life. I'm slowly working up my ability to get reads for the dsmash, but I'm not always able to get the micro-positioning where it needs to be for the punish.

@ Shaya
Backwards jumping and air dodge short hop aerials are TOTALLY THE TRUTH. I've been having a field day with them on the ladder. Ness' dash attack whiffs if you are jumping backwards. So do a few other attacks I'm not remembering now. And cross up back airs are just really great since you are already carrying your momentum away from your foe. I don't hit them too frequently yet cause I'm super obvious about it... cause it's a new skill, and new skills are fun!

I've also been looking at short hop, air dodge, and landing into some sort of response. The delay sometimes gets people to drop their shield for a nice up tilt or boost kick.

Bah, I wish I had more time to practice!

Imagine if we could SHAD nair, that would be completely broken.

 

[Peahnuts]

Can't wait for people to liken her to Luigi because they're both combo heavy, despite the fact that we require so much precision and thought to get the results that we do. ngl I'm usually all for character recognition but I don't feel like ZeRo's video provides any particularly positive insight into our character. Even giving false information like a dthrow at 20% can lead into the uair>uair>upb combo or death. Not sure if he realises that the combo only works at a specific percent range and people actually DI it now.

 

[apparently fuz]

Can't wait for more and more people calling for her to be nerfed just because she's a top tier. Oh, I also read a comment about someone wanting to have a pocket ZSS. You don't 'pocket' ZSS. If you're gonna use her, you'll need to put in the time and be committed.

 

[CatStache]

I'm usually all for character recognition but I don't feel like ZeRo's video provides any particularly positive insight into our character.

Inb4 conspiracy theory that Zero wants to move all the focus off of sheik and on to ZSS, so ZSS gets nerfed instead of Sheik. Also, Nairo is his biggest competitor so he'd be killing 2 birds with one stone.

 

[pichuthedk]

Can't wait for people to liken her to Luigi because they're both combo heavy, despite the fact that we require so much precision and thought to get the results that we do. ngl I'm usually all for character recognition but I don't feel like ZeRo's video provides any particularly positive insight into our character. Even giving false information like a dthrow at 20% can lead into the uair>uair>upb combo or death. Not sure if he realises that the combo only works at a specific percent range and people actually DI it now.

Actually don't we get to like automatically kill Rob around that %? or something like 30%.
That is why Holy hates that MU xD.

 

[Xelion]

Actually don't we get to like automatically kill Rob around that %? or something like 30%.
That is why Holy hates that MU xD.

Yep I was playing with my friend, who plays ROB and I killed him around that percent with the combo.

 

[pichuthedk]

^^
and @ infiniteV115 said I quit brawl for S4 and did worse in S4.

 

[Shaya]

Imagine if we could SHAD nair, that would be completely broken.

That's why we have full hop air dodge ff nair~

@ Shaya
Backwards jumping and air dodge short hop aerials are TOTALLY THE TRUTH.

"something something" TOLD YOU SO (kinda?)

I think the three match ups we have issues with other than Sheik:
Ness, Mario and Pikachu are all likely not bad for us, it's just our margin for error against them are a lot less than other characters. Customs make some of these match ups disadvantaged for sure, but otherwise... hmm.

@Nairo
Not sure if you're up for talking about your ESAM sets here, but I'll keep the comments to primarily the first set (second set you seemed so flustered).
ESAM really knew how to punish flip jump. Like 100% success rate almost. Based NickRiddle.
A ZSS who gets punished for using flip jump is one of the most defenseless characters in the game, it's crazy, she really cannot find a way out of danger in these situations right now. It's an area we should perhaps be looking into theorizing over, because we probably crutch too hard on flip jump and have little developed for what we're meant to do without it.

Otherwise Nairo tended to out play neutral, space nairs and bairs appropriately (like maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 whiffing, which half of those got punished, it's kinda the caveat of the match up I suppose).
Nairo was also predisposed to not using shield much, tis why we love him, but against Pikachu's buttons we usually have no other option (also landing with an aerial and shielding more often forces a bit more respect out of Pika I'd say), but most of pikachu's attacks on our shield aren't safe. My theory on this match up on why it's evenish is how good our shield can be, and we tend to underrate it because we don't have the 6 frame grab, but how do characters handle our shield? A lot worse than us dealing with many character's shields I'd say, especially with well spaced actions.

Now when it comes to Mario... like, I find it so easy for Marth although ZSS has better range, frame data, etc. I've been practicing a lot against Mario CPUs lately, I hope my spacing/responses are better for the next time I do this. Full hopping is actually probably one of the "truths" in this match up, mario's dash in shield or up smash (and dash up air is disgusting) is just so spooky and our immediate choice to that being an incoming possibility tends to always be jump. But how does Mario beat us then? Playing passive and punishing us out of desperation. We probably don't need to fear getting grabbed by him as much as we do, so just like PIkachu I think we should be thinking "hold shield" a lot more often than we do. Mario's neutral is strongest in the air, and we can get blindsided to this and try to be overzealous in areas we cannot and should not be in.
Also a point of "awareness", but Mario's up smash starting behind his head. If Mario is facing backwards your next action needs to always be holding shield (after an attack or just landing/etc). I think up smash out of shield will hit us out of all of our post-landing aerial options bar shield. We shouldn't be spot dodging either.

Now with Ness, well despite what ZeRo said I do currently think this is a solid "poor match up". Ness can definitely win with only grabs and the fact that we have to start being afraid to do anything near him by 100% EVEN CENTRE STAGE is a joke. Ness legitimately wins because of the stupid risk/reward involved with a character who only needs grab to win. We can't hold shield and be on parity (at worse) like a lot of the other complicated high tiers. Despite this, we destroy him when he's doing anything but mid-range shield holding and dash grab. Not sure what we're meant to do here tbh, perhaps side-b because of his poor mobility is a possibility (the move is good against the likes of Kirby because of his mobility) to not have as much risk in trying to pressure him as we do otherwise.

I usually like "hard match ups" that I can chalk up as still feasibly in our favour (in one area or another that can be exploited to win, not necessarily +1ing/etc) because of what us "outplaying" entails and how evenly we can run in neutral playing with a bit more passiveness.
Ness is probably the single sore thumb to my ZSS/Marth duo, but I'd still likely opt for Marth right now. Pika/Mario on the other hand seem pretty EZ at a glance with Marth atm, but I'd still prefer conquering them with ZSS.

---

Oh and until I see it developing better otherwise, I think Olimar is probably our only other bona fide "counter". But that's completely fine in my eyes. I was an oli match up expert in Brawl so I hope an opportunity comes for me to develop ideas for it in the future.

 

[Peahnuts]

Actually don't we get to like automatically kill Rob around that %? or something like 30%.
That is why Holy hates that MU xD.

Oh yeah I think rob and likely a few of the heavies are more or less stuck if we grab them at 30-40% unless we completely **** up ahahah. If it's on halberd or the side of smashville etc then yes it is indeed death.

 

[Xelion]

Oh yeah I think rob and likely a few of the heavies are more or less stuck if we grab them at 30-40% unless we completely **** up ahahah. If it's on halberd or the side of smashville etc then yes it is indeed death.

I main Ike, so would you say it would be better to go to ZSS dittos than play against ZSS as Ike? The only reason I'm asking is because Ike is like borderline heavy weight and mid weight.
EDIT: I never really play against other ZSS players, at least ones that are good.

 

[Peahnuts]

I main Ike, so would you say it would be better to go to ZSS dittos than play against ZSS as Ike? The only reason I'm asking is because Ike is like borderline heavy weight and mid weight.
EDIT: I never really play against other ZSS players, at least ones that are good.

I think Ike would probably be classified under the regular characters in terms of ease to boost kick. Mainly because the other heavies get stuck because of their huge hitboxes where as Ike's more Marth/Falcon sized, just with a huge disjoint. Not saying it's easy to DI out of as Ike, but if you're more confident in your Ike I'd stick to that then a less-polished ZSS. Take advantage of your huge range and punishes.

 

[infiniteV115]

^^
and @ infiniteV115 said I quit brawl for S4 and did worse in S4.

You were ranked at Brawl at some point whereas you've only made HM for S4. Also didn't you lose to that random Rosa at Gameswap

 

[Shaya]

You were ranked at Brawl at some point whereas you've only made HM for S4. Also didn't you lose to that random Rosa at Gameswap

You're better in smash4 than you ever were at brawl.
SUCKER.

 

[NickRiddle]

What happened to these boards while I took my SWF hiatus?

Also, if you get grabbed at 20% and die to uairx2 > Boost Kick, you're really really bad at this game and should probably stop playing it and contemplate life... I hate it when people spread misinformation about characters they don't know about...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What happened to these boards while I took my SWF hiatus?

Also, if you get grabbed at 20% and die to uairx2 > Boost Kick, you're really really bad at this game and should probably stop playing it and contemplate life... I hate it when people spread misinformation about characters they don't know about...

You would need to wait for the ZSS to FF after the first uAir to even get hit by the second.
But that's just one complaint about his video.