Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Shaya]

You're swerving in the air during the air dodge + you can act out with something like another jump (airdodge?) or flip jump. Or aerial.

It's not exactly a super good way to beat forward rolls (I mean it's roughly along the lines of 'maybe dash attack, but most likely forward roll is coming in as I jump')
But if you've ever down aired someone rolling into you into a back air, you know they're going to be careful rolling in again

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

You're swerving in the air during the air dodge + you can act out with something like another jump (airdodge?) or flip jump. Or aerial.

It's not exactly a super good way to beat forward rolls (I mean it's roughly along the lines of 'maybe dash attack, but most likely forward roll is coming in as I jump')
But if you've ever down aired someone rolling into you into a back air, you know they're going to be careful rolling in again

I don't think I fully understand, if I get the roll read, why air dodge in the first place?

 

[Shaya]

Because what if they dash attacked or dash faired instead?

You're right though, if I'm thinking purely roll I probably wouldn't want to jump in the first place lol.
But I like my easy single hit forward airs and silly down airs.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Because what if they dash attacked or dash faired instead?

I see, thanks. I'll try it out as soon as I'm back home.

 

[Shaya]

[i'm so edit prone lol]
I suppose here's the scenario:

I'm jumping, because I jump
oh they're moving towards me during my jump squat, I've reacted to them moving towards me but not to what they're about to do.
If I'm thinking of attempting to avoid as many options at once in this scenario, air dodge is likely my best bet. Because the lag of a roll is going to be roughly the same as my air dodge.

I suppose you could also think about it as a bait.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

[i'm so edit prone lol]
I suppose here's the scenario:

I'm jumping, because I jump
oh they're moving towards me during my jump squat, I've reacted to them moving towards me but not to what they're about to do.
If I'm thinking of attempting to avoid as many options at once in this scenario, air dodge is likely my best bet. Because the lag of a roll is going to be roughly the same as my air dodge.

I suppose you could also think about it as a bait.

Yeah I think I understood the part about option coverage. Now that you say it, I tend to jump again in those situations. One of my biggest holes in my neutral is that I retreat too much. Guess this will help a bit.

 

[hiROI]

How do yall maintain consistency in tournaments? This past month, I got 4th, 3rd, 9th, 7th, 4th, and 9th last night. We have two weeklies a week with 35-45 people at each event.

It's mind boggling knowing I can do well but not being achieving the same results every week.

 

[BatShark]

How do yall maintain consistency in tournaments? This past month, I got 4th, 3rd, 9th, 7th, 4th, and 9th last night. We have two weeklies a week with 35-45 people at each event.

It's mind boggling knowing I can do well but not being achieving the same results every week.

I have been struggling with this as well, and it often comes down to dropped sets to random players. Several weeks now I've beat the best player I happened to play that night and then lose to considerably lower-achieving players. Highly frustrating.

 

[hiROI]

I have been struggling with this as well, and it often comes down to dropped sets to random players. Several weeks now I've beat the best player I happened to play that night and then lose to considerably lower-achieving players. Highly frustrating.

Same here. When I placed third, I was taking sets and games from the top players in Central Florida and then yesterday felt off. Any tips on how to practice more effectively?

 

[David Viran]

Same here. When I placed third, I was taking sets and games from the top players in Central Florida and then yesterday felt off. Any tips on how to practice more effectively?

Practice everyday. I get destroyed by this. If you go to long not playing zss you will get destroyed.

 

[BatShark]

Practice everyday. I get destroyed by this. If you go to long not playing zss you will get destroyed.

The group of players I play with every day include well over half of NorCal's PR and I hang with them very well. They have suggested I am not properly "scrub-proofed" in response to some of my random losses. D=

 

[hiROI]

Practice everyday. I get destroyed by this. If you go to long not playing zss you will get destroyed.

My training partner @Noa. said the same thing. After this week I should be able to play more than the day of tournament. My summer classes and full time plus internship will be done (alleluia)

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Match up experience nails me to the floor, usually. "Oh, Little Mac isn't that bad, all I have to do is... OH GOD EVERYTHING HURTS." Of course, I should have just shielded more. His throws don't really lead to things pain that's worse than actually eating his ground game... but still, a good example of me getting owned by MU knowledge.

I try to play ladder matches online to get experience. Just having my hands warm helps... but then again, I've got a 3rd place finish once in a relatively weak region, so... take that with a whole shaker of salt :-p.

 

[Champ Gold]

Match up experience nails me to the floor, usually. "Oh, Little Mac isn't that bad, all I have to do is... OH GOD EVERYTHING HURTS." Of course, I should have just shielded more. His throws don't really lead to things pain that's worse than actually eating his ground game... but still, a good example of me getting owned by MU knowledge.

I try to play ladder matches online to get experience. Just having my hands warm helps... but then again, I've got a 3rd place finish once in a relatively weak region, so... take that with a whole shaker of salt :-p.

Mac have a few setups for throws.

DThrow into FAir into FSmash is possible. Plus it doesn't help that Side-B can ignore her teather grab. If you're smart, don't worry about gimping him since a smart Mac won't even let that happen, getting him in the air whether it's off stage or above, especially baiting out air dodges and punishing.

 

[Take 5]

A friendly reminder to not jump into s***:

Full disclosure: this Samus had great spacing and bodied me 4-2 in friendlies XD

P.S. Will have limited internet access this weekend. Best of luck to Nairo at Smash Con. *lifts arms to lend energy for ZeRo-defeating Spirit Bomb*

P.P.S. Watched the EE interview with ZeRo. He's a good guy.

 

[Darklink401]

I've been wanting to pick up ZSS as a secondary for some time, and I have to agree with what people say. The only thing that's holding her back from being best in the game is her grab.

Looking for ways around that, I found out that ff upair can actually combo into a variety of things, including another upair to up B, which can kill Sheik around 50% or so.

I know that grab beats shield and upair doesn't, but this seems like a pretty good punish option, since you can also get bair and fair out of it.

Or am I totally off my rocker? XDD

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@VaBengal watching you on stream right now, you're beautiful to look at.
And your ZSS is pretty good too.
Cheering for you here, good luck.

 

[Shaya]

Bengalz almost lost first game. Don't go to battlefield

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

And now Nairo ****** that poor bowser
Stylemeter 1337%

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Those pocket ZSS' make me sad.
One CP's her against Pikachu out of all characters.
The next one screws up the BnB combo by going for uSpecial after the first uAir at the right percent.

 

[Shaya]

"Zero Suit Samus" is a mindless braindead win button. Nerf everything.
Is unfortunately a growing tide. Jesus

 

[David Viran]

A lot of people are thinking nowadays that if your character is considered top tier it's because they're easy to play.

 

[Darklink401]

A lot of people are thinking nowadays that if your character is considered top tier it's because they're easy to play.

I think ZSS has a stigma that she IS very formulaic tho.

 

[Shaya]

I think ZSS has a stigma that she IS very formulaic tho.

yeah sure, on wifi...
paralyzer -> dash grab, right?
Mashing down b kick?

I have not watched a single good tournament level ZSS be "formulaic" more so than any other character.
(Considering how much work she has to put into dealing with shields and handling a very 'bad' short hop).

 

[Shaya]

Bengalz against Will. The habit of throwing out a nair/bair (that was safe-ish) but immediately and nearly always doing a defensive maneuver (like dashing away), gets easily and to an extent HEAVILY punished by every mobile character.

After "bad jumping" this is probably the next most prominent "poor ZSS habit".

 

[Darklink401]

yeah sure, on wifi...
paralyzer -> dash grab, right?
Mashing down b kick?

I have not watched a single good tournament level ZSS be "formulaic" more so than any other character.
(Considering how much work she has to put into dealing with shields and handling a very 'bad' short hop).

also upair upair up B XD

Nairo's ZSS is absolutely sexy tho.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

What's wrong with ZSS' short hop?

 

[Shaya]

What's wrong with ZSS' short hop?

If we swapped it with Falcos or Sheiks, ZSS would be a near unstoppable demon. Sh nair would hit grounded opponents on the rise and land afterwards during this (think sh fair from Marth hitting grounded opponents). Sh Zair on the rise would be capable of zoning characters at Mario height or greater and would likely not just be a comparative to Falco Brawl Laser (as is very common) but arguably better.
She can't really aerial on the rise against basically everyone, her short hop gives her no benefits beyond being the fastest way to be able to input a landing aerial.
She can't defend herself on the rise of said short hop other than air dodge (although this is good/maybe all that's needed).
Her auto cancels don't fit with her short hops either, I believe sh rising ff fair will have landing lag.

Only up air can be acted out of before landing from a rising aerial as well.

 

[David Viran]

Noooooooo @VaBengal

 

[Shaya]

That was really unfortunate to see. Bengalz figured out the match up but made one crucial error
Our weight really is a huge factor to how well we do lol.

 

[David Viran]

I think he could have survived with DI too. Oh well you lose and learn.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Her auto cancels don't fit with her short hops either, I believe sh rising ff fair will have landing lag.

Fair does auto cancel actually.

 

[David Viran]

Fair does auto cancel actually.

Can confirm it does but barley.

 

[Shaya]

Fair does auto cancel actually.

Fast fall doesn't seem so?

I did say FF didn't I? That isn't confusing in context right?
And unless I'm failing hard with holding L to frame advance, she cannot auto cancel rising fast fall fair on short hop.

 

[David Viran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo

Bruh stage spiking with bair looking more legit.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

My bad, I'm blind.

 

[Champ Gold]

Hey quick question, is D-throw the only useful throw for ZSS or are there anymore usefull stuff like B-Throw

 

[Shaya]

So I just got around to trying tilt stick... maybe this is worth it.
@ Tobi_Whatever , you lied to me though, Analog down + attack stick down doesn't give me a SMASH ATTACK .

But I'm already remembering much better aerial control habits from Brawl... I guess I'm bad at flicking the c-stick lol.
But yeah, the easy up airs out of shield is something special.

I can perfect pivot down smash "manually" still, I suppose I can get used to pivot fsmashes with this too (something I've been working on lately, Fsmash is pretty huge range and not as risky as going for the grab).

Anyway our short hop is, if I'm counting correctly, 38 frames in length (that or 39). You can sh rising up air and get forward air just to barely not come out (the leg kick actually happens but the move isn't out until the next frame/won't hit anything).
And that 38 frame period matches up with sh rising air dodge into back air just coming out, while neutral air cannot.

And tilt stick still auto buffs fast falls if the analog stick is held down?
The thought came up before and this stuff kinda confirms it. Attack Stick has been made for competitive players while artificially limiting those who use the smash attack for the fact that they can smash easy.... meh.
And if I can learn to consistently c-stick neutral airs i'll be smitten.

 

[Shaya]

Hey quick question, is D-throw the only useful throw for ZSS or are there anymore usefull stuff like B-Throw

Long (into the future) answer: No.
Fthrow/Bthrow are the same trajectory, similar end lag and do have similar follow ups although Fthrow ones are more finicky (they usually won't show up as combos, but they aren't as avoidable as we thought) and don't last as long as the growth is higher.
(for example, bthrow dash attack shows up at a combo at 0%, fthrow dash attack shows up as one from 40%, doesn't last until 50%, bthrow DA will stop true comboing at around 50-60%).

Short answer: yes
It has the least amount of lag, sends them up, basically always has a guaranteed follow up (up air or fair).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I just got around to trying tilt stick... maybe this is worth it.
@ Tobi_Whatever , you lied to me though, Analog down + attack stick down doesn't give me a SMASH ATTACK .

But I'm already remembering much better aerial control habits from Brawl... I guess I'm bad at flicking the c-stick lol.
But yeah, the easy up airs out of shield is something special.

I can perfect pivot down smash "manually" still, I suppose I can get used to pivot fsmashes with this too (something I've been working on lately, Fsmash is pretty huge range and not as risky as going for the grab).

Anyway our short hop is, if I'm counting correctly, 38 frames in length (that or 39). You can sh rising up air and get forward air just to barely not come out (the leg kick actually happens but the move isn't out until the next frame/won't hit anything).
And that 38 frame period matches up with sh rising air dodge into back air just coming out, while neutral air cannot.

And tilt stick still auto buffs fast falls if the analog stick is held down?
The thought came up before and this stuff kinda confirms it. Attack Stick has been made for competitive players while artificially limiting those who use the smash attack for the fact that they can smash easy.... meh.
And if I can learn to consistently c-stick neutral airs i'll be smitten.

Yeah sorry for that, now that you say it, I actually remember me talking about buffering dash attacks with direction + c stick because direction + a can easily result in a smash attack, which makes the analogue + attack stick = smash theory impossible.

Spoiler

you participated in that conversation though, YOU COULD HAVE REMEMBERED TOO

Also adding to the throw stuff, bThrow is basically our ultimate super not so secret clutch throw because of bThrow > dSpecial kick spike, which combos at the right percentages if the opponent doesn't DI down.