Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Tobi_Whatever]

On another note, I think I finally found my secondary in Ike. Dunno if he is a good substitute for ZSS' weaknesses but he is fun to play and his BIG BAD SEXY
[collapse=SIZE MATTERS]disjoint[/collapse]
really helps in some matchups.

 

[pichuthedk]

Bengalz against Will. The habit of throwing out a nair/bair (that was safe-ish) but immediately and nearly always doing a defensive maneuver (like dashing away), gets easily and to an extent HEAVILY punished by every mobile character.

After "bad jumping" this is probably the next most prominent "poor ZSS habit".

Man the amount of times I've been hit by like an F-smash because I (IMO) was far to god damn slow to input dash away or the "I'm gonna jump out of this move in time" thoughts makes want to have someone roll up a newspaper and slap me on the head every time it happens, Only way I'll seem to stop this bad habit xD.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

dem grab misses
what the hell was going on

And now we see why Lylat is an awful idea against Pikachu.

 

[BatShark]

dem grab misses
what the hell was going on

And now we see why Lylat is an awful idea against Pikachu.

Dreamland, too. Entire stage is a platform for QAC purposes. Some parts of Halberd, too, I think.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Dreamland, too. Entire stage is a platform for QAC purposes. Some parts of Halberd, too, I think.

Those are fine, especially Halberd is still in our favour.
The problem with Lylat is when the stage tilts, many moves just outright miss. nSpecial, fTilt, FF uAir and zAir are even harder to land against Pikachu.

I don't get it. Nairos ZSS is beautiful, aggressive, a feast for the eyes every time you watch him and his grab game is the best I've ever seen.
Him screwing up those dSmash followups at kill percent really seems unnecessary and out of character.
JUST GO FOR THE DSPECIAL ;_;

 

[Take 5]

Sigh... Nairo could have ended this back in Winners Semis if he landed that d-smash flip kick follow-up on Duck Hunt. But ESAM is playing FANTASTIC today. Let's see what happens in Grand Finals, he just might do it!

Edit: Guess not... not understanding the Yoshi switch either XD

Congratulations to ZeRo! The skill gap is definitely closing, though.

 

[apparently fuz]

What Nairo did to Fatality was just disgusting. Jesus Christ.

And yeah, dunno what he was trying to do after d-smash against ESAM, to me it was looking like he was trying to style when he could have gotten out a confirm.

But yeah. Congrats to ZeRo.

 

[Champ Gold]

Man, I feel like Nairo is the only one that can leave a dent in ZeRo.


But man, he was so close but that combo on Fatality

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Man, I feel like Nairo is the only one that can leave a dent in ZeRo.


But man, he was so close but that combo on Fatality

Esam did better than Nairo ever did against ZeRo afaik.
Nairo did great, absolutely destroyed Fatality and did fairly well against Esam.
I'm sure he can improve with more MU training, I bet he didn't really focus on Pikachu since ZeRo is still his goal.
Pikachu is very clearly our hardest MU though.

 

[Take 5]

Is TBH5 in October the next Sm4sh national? Really itching to see ZeRo/Nairo/ESAM face off again soon...

Edit: Nvm, looks like SKTAR 4 is the next one on August 22nd. Not sure if that gives Nairo enough time to improve, but if he's generally playing better than he did today then there is hope

 

[BatShark]

I've seen that same situation happen to Nairo at least twice now. I honestly think he's just not expecting the hitconfirm, goes to plan B because he knows a late down B won't do it, and then flubs the Bair because he's trying to 'catch up'.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

From what I've heard ZeRo isn't going to SKTAR :/. I believe he told Nario on one of his streams he didn't want to go. If I find the VOD i'll confirm this, but then again he could change his mind @___@

 

[Take 5]

Hope he does go, but if not, just learned that Paragon Los Angeles is also right around the corner (September 5-6). Pretty sure all the big names are going to that.

 

[pichuthedk]

So not sure If this is reality or if this anime has literally approves of the use of Teching and Zss's custom down b shooting star flip kick. @.@

please advise I am not crazy am I?

It also doesn't help that she has her hair tied up in a pony tail

 

[Champ Gold]

So not sure If this is reality or if this anime has literally approves of the use of Teching and Zss's custom down b shooting star flip kick. @.@

please advise I am not crazy am I?

It also doesn't help that she has her hair tied up in a pony tail

You're not. Everyone loves Fate/Stay Night especially with Rin

 

[David Viran]

Congrats to @Nairo for placing 3rd at smashcon and congrats to @ Dakpo for placing 2nd at EGL.

 

[Tito Maas]

So a while back I made a post about a mixup that can lead into Boost Kick--grab release to jab to UpB--and I mentioned how on the grab release, characters release at different distances and for example, with Ganondorf you can jab to UpB pretty easily but characters like Pit and Captain Falcon will release far back enough that you won't be able to jab or UpB without missing entirely.

The release points are based on traction, which can be noted by dash lag animation among other things. The longer a character's dash lag animation, the further away he/she will release on grab release. For example, Luigi will go the furthest away. According to SmashWiki, Lucario has the most traction so he should release the closest of any character. Ganondorf has the 6th most which explains why he always releases so closely. Hope this helps!

 

[Dakpo]

Congrats to @Nairo for placing 3rd at smashcon and congrats to @ Dakpo for placing 2nd at EGL.

thanks ^__^ vids will be up soon

 

[Tito Maas]

Bengalz against Will. The habit of throwing out a nair/bair (that was safe-ish) but immediately and nearly always doing a defensive maneuver (like dashing away), gets easily and to an extent HEAVILY punished by every mobile character.

After "bad jumping" this is probably the next most prominent "poor ZSS habit".

Can you break down "bad jumping" and briefly explain some of the other "poor ZSS habits" to me? I'm a new ZSS user and though the potential is off the charts, I have a harder time approaching and handling the neutral game with her than my friends who main her. I'm sure I'm guilty if a lot of these bad ZSS habits, but that of course comes with inexperience.

I feel like I don't really know how to be aggressive with ZSS and play more defensively as a result, but I know that's absolutely not the way to play as her for optimal results.

 

[Shaya]

Some characters have "quintessential" habits I suppose.
In Brawl, Marth was similar in terms of "the jump", as was how he was going to land (single timing for power shielding his fair). Having such specific play patterns with certain timings comes back to haunt players breaking through mid level (and will be what "better" players will eventually start to learn as part of how to deal with a match up and be able to produce ugly things).
So with Marth it was important to vary timings, alternate with neutral air, or fast fall land instead. Or dtilt/dancing blade/shield more and punish people trying to punish a jump you didn't make.

In Smash 4/ZSS' case, they develop overtime. Seemingly optimal game plans that will basically never go punished unless people are thinking 2-3 steps ahead (i.e. bridging reaction: "react that they're landing with nair" with anticipation [dash forward here and expect them to dash/roll away]).
When you look at how ZSS can mix it up with not dashing away is pretty risky actually, jab, up tilt or ftilt are fast but can be punished shielded close pretty hard, so in reality dashing away is still one of the best choices to take, but you need to be ready for the opponent knowing that's your best choice.

I would say the "three" habits are
1. Bad jumping: the predisposition to always think you need to be in the air to be effective (must nair, bair, etc ASAPASAP), when if an opponent is on top of you this is a terrible terrible choice. Similar to the preceding paragraph, if you're going to make this "choice" you need to be ready for them trying to punish it; at this time it's air dodge, jump, down-b, yolo aerial. As a point of interest, down-b started early from a jump can be acted out of before touching the ground. But realistically instead of thinking "jump anyway, air dodge, then try to hit them coz they'll get baited", you should be thinking "shield... roll away, jab, ftilt, ANYTHING ELSE".

2. Grabs: "play passive until the grab comes and react to it with a forward roll and kill them". Harsh reality.

3. Attack -> Defense pattern. I mean, it's probably not fair to call it a ZSS only habit, it definitely wouldn't be. This is such a well understood smash bros habit (at least from the brawl meta) that against any competent Brawl player if they realise this is what you're doing, they're likely going to bop you. Basically you're landing with an aerial, something that should be safe and generally cannot be challenged by most of the cast, then what do you do? Dash or roll away. You're at a frame disadvantage from the aerial no matter what, but not enough for a guaranteed punish, but if they take the "hard escape" read (it's actually quite reactable once you get used to it) they're very likely going to be ahead of you on your action with enough time to punish, and they're going to do so without fear because a lot of players don't ever not do this; when a few attacks, maybe a yolo smash, will scare the living daylights out of them into not always going for this. This one binary difference in game play choices forces a major upgrade of necessary respect for an opponent at all levels.
Anyway, why I feel I know this well is because I'm 1 of 2 ZSS in my region and I've never lost to them in tournament. I've told them this after every set too. It's a hard thing to shift, and it's easy to fall back into.
Someone gave me the same advice at some point in Brawl too and I shortly after never lost to that person in tournament again. I still would probably do something passive/defensive, I just would be paying attention to them trying to punish it and win out a lot more often [in Marth's case it was bull **** because of 1 frame invincibility up-b lol]

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Say @ Shaya is it possible to ever catch you playing on stream somewhere, preferably in a tourney?

 

[Shaya]

Poverty internet (for streaming) myself although I've wanted to (I mean, I kinda could at really low quality? lol)

None of our tournaments here generally are able to stream for the same reason.
Australia is poverty internet country.

In other news, I think I'm definitely keen for permanent tilt stick on ZSS. Easy walking up tilts and down tilts really have their merits, ZSS' smash attacks are all "traps" anyway so you're usually thinking about it well in advance, and the fact that you can fast fall retreating neutral air (somewhat finicky, but landing with uair or bair 'accidentally' isn't that terrible usually) with it is soooo good.
And I can perfect pivot down smash anyway.
Only downer being you can't up or down angle your forward tilts with it... WHY!?!?

For Marth it's a similar deal, I think the overall benefits weigh up to using tilt stick being better, but easy fsmash out of shield/landing is the only let down.

Some of my other characters probably still prefer smash stick over all (Falco).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Poverty internet (for streaming) myself although I've wanted to (I mean, I kinda could at really low quality? lol)

None of our tournaments here generally are able to stream for the same reason.
Australia is poverty internet country.

In other news, I think I'm definitely keen for permanent tilt stick on ZSS. Easy walking up tilts and down tilts really have their merits, ZSS' smash attacks are all "traps" anyway so you're usually thinking about it well in advance, and the fact that you can fast fall retreating neutral air (somewhat finicky, but landing with uair or bair 'accidentally' isn't that terrible usually) with it is soooo good.
And I can perfect pivot down smash anyway.
Only downer being you can't up or down angle your forward tilts with it... WHY!?!?

For Marth it's a similar deal, I think the overall benefits weigh up to using tilt stick being better, but easy fsmash out of shield/landing is the only let down.

Some of my other characters probably still prefer smash stick over all (Falco).

You're giving me flashbacks to yesterday when I was fighting my Pikachu friend. Every second sTilt punish attempt failed because I CAN'T HIT THAT DAMN RODENT GODDAMN C STICK START TILTING.
My c stick nAir is getting better (and I agree, it's beautiful) but I'm still too stupid to do PP dSmash.

 

[Shaya]

The trick is that technically you can perfect perfect without resetting the stick to neutral.
Holding up or down is fine as long as it reaches neutral horizontally.

Muscle memory for me with this stuff usually just comes around 'naturally', eventually. I practiced perfect pivot down tilts with Marth in Brawl (and failed mostly) at some point but then picked up Smash 4 and was magically able to perfect pivot straight away. Already had double sticking for getting tilts.
The only problem is that I think I'll be arthritis pro sometime soon

The difference here is that you only needed to lightly hold down to get the game to register smash stick down as a tilt. I need to 'smash' down now.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The trick is that technically you can perfect perfect without resetting the stick to neutral.
Holding up or down is fine as long as it reaches neutral horizontally.

Muscle memory for me with this stuff usually just comes around 'naturally', eventually. I practiced perfect pivot down tilts with Marth in Brawl (and failed mostly) at some point but then picked up Smash 4 and was magically able to perfect pivot straight away. Already had double sticking for getting tilts.
The only problem is that I think I'll be arthritis pro sometime soon

The difference here is that you only needed to lightly hold down to get the game to register smash stick down as a tilt. I need to 'smash' down now.

So you're telling me it's possible to do a super fast + motion that would result in a PP dSmash?
I wish I was at home right now.

 

[Shaya]

Something like that.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Something like that.

Will test this this evening and blame you for my shortcomings and incompetence.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Just found out something interesting.
If you pivot fTilt out of run, you can actually do a high or low fTilt with the c stick Not that it's very useful since you can do pivot fTilt super easy with a, but it's still kinda strange.

 

[Shaya]

I may have just noticed that last night. But wifi and c-stick inputs are all sorts of strange.

 

[Ian Viola]

Can someone give me a general idea of how ZSS is supposed to work? I'm trying to pick her up due to limits to Brawler in the current metagame.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Shaya pls
Shaya
I can't do the PP dSmash stuff
send help
Come over please and show me
like literally

Can someone give me a general idea of how ZSS is supposed to work? I'm trying to pick her up due to limits to Brawler in the current metagame.

It basically boils down to spacing (SPACING! ALL THE TIME!) with nAir/bAir/zAir, getting in grabs without missing every second time and a heavy advantage state with lots of combos and percentages to learn. If you do the right things at the right moments, you get super early kills. If you miss a grab at higher percent, you're dead. If your spacing is off you're dead too.

 

[Shaya]

Try just doing it slower then.
If after a perfect pivot you wait and do nothing for a moment first, you're probably surprisingly close to doing it right.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Try just doing it slower then.
If after a perfect pivot you wait and do nothing for a moment first, you're probably surprisingly close to doing it right.

Well doing a PP is not the problem, the not resetting to neutral position part is.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Haha, you people and your perfect pivots... I can't even do those! I always get the running animation as she moves backwards. Bleh. Not to mention trying to PP Dsmash. Or even PP Dsmash with a tilt stick. >.>

Also, Anther's Ladder matches are all I can fit in here and there as I near graduation. I've started to notice... our rising aerial options are pretty terrible. I've had a few peach players shut me down by just hanging out and waiting for the short hop. Obviously, I could also stand to be less predictable, but it forced me to realize how weak the rise on our short hop is.

 

[Shaya]

I was doing that at first (unrelated to perfect pivoting, was using it as a feint dash mix up lol) Tuen and then I heard in some video explaining it
"if you're getting this that means you're just need to let go of the stick mere moments earlier!"

voila. Instantly easy perfect pivots.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I've started to notice... our rising aerial options are pretty terrible. I've had a few peach players shut me down by just hanging out and waiting for the short hop. Obviously, I could also stand to be less predictable, but it forced me to realize how weak the rise on our short hop is.

Literally our biggest problem in the Neutral right after our ****ty grab.

 

[Shaya]

Promoting these ideas for it:
Full hopping: we can double aerial everything, reach higher aerial speeds both horizontally and vertically from fast falls. We also have like the fastest rising jump, why not?
Air Dodging on the rise: we're only exposed 2 frames before and 5 frames after the air dodge, we finish it with 8 frames left before we land (less if we fast fall, maybe risky for the ac?), so we can bair 'perfectly', up air (can fast fall slightly after starting it), first hit of fair, or down air (which can be started at any point in the air for yolo goodness). We can also down-b which exposes us for another 2 frames and we can act before we land (only jumping available or very tight window of when you can still kick)

Also a tidbit, but you should always be trying to jump 'backwards' rather than forwards as they have different animations.
A forward jump's animations leaves your legs exposed towards the ground for a long time as she curls herself into a BALL head down forwards, as she comes out of it she exposes her legs front and down immediately (doesn't happen in a short hop usually).

A backwards jump has her legs briefly (much shorter than forward) in front of her before she does a back flipping motion that FLATTENS (>>>> BALL) her body, and as she comes around BENDS her lags (RATHER THAN BECOMING A BALL) to flatten herself, still angled upwards head and then keeps one knee bent and mostly flat as she returns to 'neutral'.

The backwards jump gives you noticeably better evasive properties (for grounded opponents). A lot of the "melee" characters have this (at least I know Falco does). But in both situations the 'center' of your body is going to be the centre of your body when you start an attack or another animation. So where your legs are 1 frame before and where they are a frame later can be quite drastic. Oh and your hurtboxes are definitely where your body are.

something something Marth thing as well I talked about in brawl except it's only on his mid air backwards jump. Both of ZSS' mid air jumps curl her into a ball, which is good because it exposes us less before we up air.

If you've never looked at them closely before you should

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Promoting these ideas for it:
Full hopping
Air Dodging on the rise!

Also a tidbit, but you should always be trying to jump 'backwards' rather than forwards as they have different animations.
A forward jump's animations leaves your legs exposed towards the ground for a long time as she curls herself into a BALL head down forwards, as she comes out of it she exposes her legs front and down immediately (doesn't happen in a short hop usually).

A backwards jump has her legs briefly (much shorter than forward) in front of her before she does a back flipping motion that FLATTENS (>>>> BALL) her body, and as she comes around BENDS her lags (RATHER THAN BECOMING A BALL) to flatten herself, still angled upwards head and then keeps one knee bent and mostly flat as she returns to 'neutral'.

The backwards jump gives you noticeably better evasive properties (for grounded opponents). A lot of the "melee" characters have this (at least I know Falco does). But in both situations the 'center' of your body is going to be the centre of your body when you start an attack or another animation. So where your legs are 1 frame before and where they are a frame later can be quite drastic. Oh and your hurtboxes are definitely where your body are.

something something Marth thing as well I talked about in brawl except it's only on his mid air backwards jump. Both of ZSS' mid air jumps curl her into a ball, which is good because it exposes us less before we up air.

If you've never looked at them closely before you should

I'll have to check this all out. I've read up a little on the melee body positions... stuff. But I didn't get that far into the game for it to be useful for me. But nowadays, research and theory tidbits are my favorite thing, so this'll be fun!

I was doing that at first (unrelated to perfect pivoting, was using it as a feint dash mix up lol) Tuen and then I heard in some video explaining it
"if you're getting this that means you're just need to let go of the stick mere moments earlier!"

voila. Instantly easy perfect pivots.

As for this, I'm already slamming the stick left than right as fast as I can and letting the stick slip out my thumb. Not sure how I can go faster, outside not going all the way on the second directional input...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

As for this, I'm already slamming the stick left than right as fast as I can and letting the stick slip out my thumb. Not sure how I can go faster, outside not going all the way on the second directional input...

You need to slam it even

Also (RAR) SH airdodge bAir is one of my new best friends.
Thanks Shaya.

 

[Shaya]

Slight edit came in!

Hmm, I suppose the physical idea is you're doing the dash input correctly you just aren't taking your thumb off the stick fast enough.

What I will mention which is annoying with pivot dsmashing manually... it's really easy to do a perfect pivot turn around dsmash...
Which in itself is pretty amazing good/technical, but it's the result of inconsistency, I hate that #_#

Moral of the story maybe down tilt is the truth. I get dash forward fairs/bairs or paralyzers at medium percent (if they air dodge while you're facing backwards too early, wave bounce paralyzer for ez win), it's step forward gives it considerable range Tilt stick makes me appreciate it a lot more than I used to as when I'm down tilting from time to time accidentally still, a lot of times I go "huh, dsmashing would've been bad/got me killed" or "wow dtilt is that much faster/flat bodies are amazing".