The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Trent]

lol, Thanks. That helps a lot. Should put that in the OP.

 

[Chuee]

Trent everyone's mad about losing sonic.

 

[Trent]

Eh, I see where they're coming from in banning Pictochat. It's just annoying to lose a CP, even if I don't choose the stage all the time. It was nice for an opponent to ban it against me when I didn't wanna take him there.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sonic's HA is anything but broken, but sorry espy, the people don't wanna give a character with so many disadvantages in so many MUs something that can make a differance in the MU, they are trying not give characters that were accepted as bad something that makes them good against characters that are already labeled good. they are biased to favor them in this case and that's just the way it's gonna be. however you could indeed just argue that it is equally gay to the DDD infi- oh wait. DDD's considered a good character they won't do anything to change his metagame my bad. silly me for thinking there is not character bias

at any rate though this is a small issue and i gotta say good job on at least making changes, however don't make the next topic you guys discuss sonic's HA, just leave it as legal for now (since the wording completely allows it, don't try to cover your loophole with clever wording that isn't in the rules) and instead discuss the unbanning of japes and norfair, the 7 stage starter list, and 2 stage bans. then you can discuss whatever the hell small random tactics you want.

 

[Trent]

I do feel like clarification needs to be on Sonic's Homing Attack Stall. You should put it in the rule set, if it's legal or not, and not let it open to interpretation, if it's such a hot button topic.

Also, was there going to be a clarification on intentionally losing a pool's match as well as a bracket match?

 

[ShadowLink84]

That was quite alot to read.
I'll be honest though, Espy is...pretty much correct.
Why anyone would DQ the sonic user for using the HA is pretty much stupid.

Furthermore to clarify, in all the testing I have done, I have not found ANYTHING that determines Sonic's "bounce" direction after the HA. I've tested many different distances and it just appears to be entirely random.

By the way, BRC is trolling SO SO HARD with the stagelist.
Seriously, its like I am back in NY.

 

[T-block]

SL, go to PS1, have your opponent stand on the left edge, then HA stall from the right.

I'll be very surprised if Sonic ever goes right.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

can't you just get close enough to sonic under the stage so that his homing attack has to hit you and then just tech the hit for those of you without glide? that makes him unable to recover as he is then to far away from the stage to not just shoot straight down not to mention he wouldn't even come close to recovering from the on FD if some1 did that to him. or does he just bounce off the wall still?

 

[Black Mantis]

so basically ness and lucas are unplayable now?

 

[AlphaZealot]

By the way, BRC is trolling SO SO HARD with the stagelist.
Seriously, its like I am back in NY.

The stagelist that is going to be used at, as of now, at least half the tournaments in a given weekend is a troll?

Maybe you (or others) are the troll's for suggesting a stagelist that only yourself likes and that no tournament host, much less a majority of tournament hosts, would ever agree to.

 

[Browny]

Finally home.... ugh im not reading through all this. I dont even care if the topic has moved from this.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287269

Take a look at those poll results. From 6 months ago. and not a single thing was changed AS PER USUAL.
If anyone wants to argue the definition of stalling and legality of HA, maybe go through that.

Now, the first issue.

What is the benefit of leaving the stalling rule deliberately vague to not cover homing attack. Why does a ruleset even exist, if it is entirely up to the discretion of the TO. Its not fair that a player can enter a tournament where the rules do not ban HA, yet a TO can disqualify a player for using a perfectly legitimate and beatable technique. Picking metaknight is more broken than this technique. Seriously.

SECONDLY

Consider the two situations, a character like Marth on the stage while MK sits on the edge spamming uair etc and him vs a sonic using HA under the stage. In both situations, the MK/Sonic have put themselves in a highly advantageous position where attempting to hit them is very risky. Marth can quite easily go after both characters and hit them but still risks a possible gimp if he messes up. So Marth has 2 options, attack them or leave them. This leaves 4 situations;

1. MK planking/scrooging - Marth does nothing
2. MK planking/scrooging - Marth attacks
3. HA under the stage - Marth does nothing
4. HA under the stage - Marth attacks

As it stands, 1 and 2 are perfectly legal while 3-4 are banworthy by a TO. Now what I want to know is how 1 and 3 are different. So different in fact, that one tactic is legal while one gives you an outright DQ. Can anyone here prove that for as long as Marth refuses to attack in situation 1 and MK keeps on planking with his aerials, this is not stalling on the MK’s behalf? I’m afraid the answer to this question cannot be situation 2 (as in Marth is creating the stall, not MK) because in that case, that would render situation 4 legal. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two. The argument that HA under the stage is done without intent of fighting and purely running down the clock is void for as long as situation 1 is legal, they are the same.

In summary, HA under the stage IS NOT STALLING IF PLANKING IS LEGAL. Since planking is legal, HA under the stage should be 100% legal and no TO can ban it.

All the BRC has to say is 1 single solitary sentence in a sub-paragraph to the stalling rule:
Sonic using HA under the stage is banned
Sonic using HA under the stage is legal

AND ALL THE WORLDS PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED.

 

[Kuro~]

But...that's not true. planking has had limits imposed on it. Cuz it directly affects gameplay and matchups. So does HA. I mean, this doesn't really affect my characters...but i feel if one is able to just HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA that it really is degenerating gameplay and there should be consequences after a certain point.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can't we wait for HA to be a problem before we discuss whether it's a problem?

I mean, power-shielding is broken in theory but we haven't banned that yet.

 

[Browny]

so put a limit on HA then.

Also grim, how about we wait for IDC to be a problem before banning it? lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Some things are obviously broken, others aren't.

HA camping isn't obviously broken.

 

[WindMajor]

I don't think IDC had to reach tournaments for us to realize that it was a problem. :/

 

[Browny]

define "problem"

was it causing tournament to be dominated by MK's abusing this tactic? Id call that a problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nope, but it would have if it was still legal.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Hey guys, I wasn't sure where to post this, but can I get some advice on hosting a tournament?

 

[WindMajor]

Problem as in potential issue. Something one we could acknowledge that could be problematic in the future, implying that it isn't problematic at the moment.

 

[Ghostbone]

so basically ness and lucas are unplayable now?

Were they ever really playable?


IDC isn't just broken in a stalling sense it's broken as an attack as well.

 

[Life]

Hey guys, I wasn't sure where to post this, but can I get some advice on hosting a tournament?

Look for the "Tournament Discussion" forum. Can't link it as I'm in a rush.

 

[etecoon]

I just dislike the TO Discretion thing because that allows them to do whatever they want to the ruleset just because they feel like it, online or at the venue of a tournament.

Hell, down here, some tournament banned Meta Knight on the premise that "he's stupid," and nothing more.

I don't really see a problem with this

in fact in the highly unlikely event that MK ever is banned nationally I'd like it to be worded like that in the official ruleset

"Meta Knight is banned because he's stupid."

 

[Browny]

The problem is, people pay an entry fee to play a tournament by the rules as they are written. If someone gets disqualified for breaking a rule that was not written, they deserve a full refund. You cant just make up rules on the spot after the entrant AND the TO both agreed to it when the money swapped hands.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He wasn't talking about that Browny, he was talking about MK being banned because he's stupid...

 

[Browny]

Yeah I know, topic wasnt live and I opened that post before 9:01

JEEZ

 

[etecoon]

actually I was talking about that, if the TO just randomly said

SIGN UP FOR DOUBLES NOW, META KNIGHT IS BANNED

I would rupture a lung laughing maniacally

I guess I can see where it would be a problem AFTER the money is collected...

 

[Black Mantis]

Were they ever really playable?


IDC isn't just broken in a stalling sense it's broken as an attack as well.

Lol they were playable it just was hard due to the grab releases. Now this infinite allowed stuff makes it impossible for them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just like how not approaching makes Zelda useless, can we ban that too guys?

Guys?

Banning infinites is silly, +1 for the Unity Ruleset.

 

[Black Mantis]

Zelda has options which allow her to overcome that pretty easily.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Right, and that's why she's the second worst character in the game.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ness and Lucas can only be infinited by DK as far as I know.

DK taking his anger out on little kids sadly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They probably stole his banana horde.

He'd probably infinite K. Rool too if he had a -10 frame disadvantage on grab release.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

>_> This stalling stuff is ********. If it is determined by your opponent's position, they will be forced to go to the edge and help you up. If it isn't, there is no ****ing way you are going to be under there for 6 minutes. Espy, you are being ridiculous.

You guys are saying that we are biased against bad characters? Hell yeah, that is totally why we have a lower LGL on the best character in the game and why infinites characters like PT and Yoshi have are legal. You guys are ******** and you are basically complaining for no reason. Oh, so we banned Pictochat which OBVIOUSLY means we are eliminating CPs for characters while maintaining MKs CPs. If every stage was MKs best stage and other stages were terrible for MK but not competitively sound, THEY WOULDN'T BE LEGAL! We are currently discussing stages, so chill your ****ing grill. If we don't add them, we don't add them based on the conclusion it isn't competitively viable.

So please, relax. We aren't just back there going "Lololol this is hilarious everybody will get so mad and MK is amazing!" Hell, Pictochat benefits at least 4 people back there (Chibo with Rob, myself with Pika/ICs, and AZ with Diddy, Technical Chase with D3), so us banning it wasn't a matter of personal preference, but a matter of what is right/wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nice post, ESAM.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

What ESAM said. Seriously, can we stop talking about ******** crap?

 

[Trent]

>_> This stalling stuff is ********. If it is determined by your opponent's position, they will be forced to go to the edge and help you up. If it isn't, there is no ****ing way you are going to be under there for 6 minutes. Espy, you are being ridiculous.

You guys are saying that we are biased against bad characters? Hell yeah, that is totally why we have a lower LGL on the best character in the game and why infinites characters like PT and Yoshi have are legal. You guys are ******** and you are basically complaining for no reason. Oh, so we banned Pictochat which OBVIOUSLY means we are eliminating CPs for characters while maintaining MKs CPs. If every stage was MKs best stage and other stages were terrible for MK but not competitively sound, THEY WOULDN'T BE LEGAL! We are currently discussing stages, so chill your ****ing grill. If we don't add them, we don't add them based on the conclusion it isn't competitively viable.

So please, relax. We aren't just back there going "Lololol this is hilarious everybody will get so mad and MK is amazing!" Hell, Pictochat benefits at least 4 people back there (Chibo with Rob, myself with Pika/ICs, and AZ with Diddy, Technical Chase with D3), so us banning it wasn't a matter of personal preference, but a matter of what is right/wrong.

I like this post.

However, As of right now, I just want clarification. Is HA stall banned, y/n?

 

[etecoon]

people will always turn it into an MK thing until either

A) MK is banned

B) RC and or brinstar are banned

I don't see either happening any time soon but pretty much any time you take any stage out of the game and it isn't MK's best or second best stage, people will immediately act like it was intentionally done to make MK stronger regardless of how it affects everyone else

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I like this post.

However, As of right now, I just want clarification. Is HA stall banned, y/n?

If it is controlled by the player on stage, they will get them off from the bottom anyway since they are (probably) losing and want to fight. If that is the case, the point is moot.

If that isn't the case, it honestly depends. We can't say "You can do it for 30 seconds and you must land" because 1) How do you know the randomness won't force you to stay down there for more than 30 seconds, and 2) people will just go back under every 30 seconds and say "But I didn't break any rules!"

It honestly is the TO's choice at that point, only if where they go is truly random. So, the answer to your question is: maybe.

Delux, can you have people in the Smash Lab test it please?

 

[Trent]

People have tested it in the past, but it should probably be looked at again. I just know HA the bottom of the stage is sometimes a good way to keep yourself from SDing, or a way to recover if you find yourself underneath the stage.

Hopefully someone won't get DQed for using it as above.