The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Sinister Slush]

eggs are items that yoshi creates and throws

Yoshi's eggs are Projectiles that have two hitboxes and does 8/9%.
The opponent cannot grab said eggs and Throw it back at Yoshi... Unlike Link's Bombs, Samus's Armor pieces, or Snakes Grenades etc.

 

[T-block]

Well I think I know.

It's the stage geography - it's dependent on where you collide with the stage.

Go to Battlefield. Homing attack at the bottom, next to the middle feature from the left side. Sonic will always go towards the edge with the first HA, then back towards the middle with the second. If you go to the right side, he always goes towards the edge twice.

I did it for six minutes... not conclusive I guess, but pretty damn convincing.

Again, if you're looking at the nature of the tech, then why haven't we targeted specific chaingrabs and infinites?

We do look at the nature of each chain grab and infinite. We deem that none of them are bannable. We say that chain grabs are fine because the opponent can not get grabbed.

However, we have already set the precedent that "don't lose the lead" is not enough to justify such tactics in circle camping.

 

[Alphicans]

If quantity isn't the issue when it comes to banning a tactic, then why haven't you banned King Dedede's infinite chaingrabs, or Marth's chaingrabs on the Psi Brats? Or how about any other techniques that more or less degenerates gameplay to focus on a certain aspect?

And I refuse to accept that MK's planking is the same thing. Was it not proven by DMG that Meta Knight planking can technically be unable to get around? How is something that could potentially be impossible for some characters to deal with comparable to something that gives the opponent ample time to attack back with no retaliation?

And if quantity doesn't matter, then why bring up the issue with the majority of the cast in one of your earlier posts (unless that was suggested by T-Block)?



Again, if you're looking at the nature of the tech, then why haven't we targeted specific chaingrabs and infinites?

Lots of these questions are easily answerable, and I am not sure why you asked them considering I already said what I believed. I don't think DDD's infinites are as bad as this HA camping. Or Marth's CG on the psi kids. No matter what the match-up is still playable. It's just really hard to work around it; no matter what these characters still have a chance at winning despite how slim it is. In the scenario I bring up, falco has 0 chance of winning.

Yes it was proven that MK's planking is unbeatable.
Sonic's HA camping is unbeatable by certain characters.

I see no difference.
EDIT: Ok clearly there is a quantity difference, but to me that doesn't REALLY matter. The game will still come to a standstill.

I talked about quantity because I figured you'd consider that sort of thing. I actually don't consider it myself. It was just a way to argue on the same terms.

 

[Suspect]

Yoshi's eggs are Projectiles that have two hitboxes and does 8/9%.
The opponent cannot grab said eggs and Throw it back at Yoshi... Unlike Link's Bombs, Samus's Armor pieces, or Snakes Grenades etc.

ok so they are like falcos lasers then.

yoshi now deserves it also.

 

[T-block]

PS1 is interesting...

On normal transformation, heading to the bottom from the right side, Sonic will always go forward and stay in place. On Grass transformation, he goes towards the edge, and then back towards the middle with the next HA. Rock is the same thing. Probably Fire and Water too, but I haven't gotten to those.

So Espy, I've just spent upwards of 15 minutes pushing B. Am I allowed to challenge your knowledge on this topic now?

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's a huge difference between Falco's Lasers and Yoshi's Egg toss.
Not quite sure on the Frame Data for Falco's Neutral B, But Yoshi's ET is easily punishable since it lasts 54 frames.
Also Falco/Diddy Kong are actually decent characters whereas Yoshi is a Terrible, But Underrated Low Tier character that earned some decent results which is possibly enough to jump him +2 spots in the next Tier list, cause Half the players who Play Polt Delta Me etc. have little to any idea on how the Matchup works.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Espy, what you are arguing about is pointless. We can tell based on both player's accounts of the incident + what I said before + continuing to watch the match after we are called over. It really isn't difficult, and you are blowing it out of proportion. I don't think a Sonic will be trying to recover for 2 minutes straight. How would he get under the stage anyway? He has a double jump and an up-b so you won't ever need to get really close to the other side since they send you quite some distance.

 

[Espy Rose]

Well I think I know.

It's the stage geography - it's dependent on where you collide with the stage.

Go to Battlefield. Homing attack at the bottom, next to the middle feature from the left side. Sonic will always go towards the edge with the first HA, then back towards the middle with the second. If you go to the right side, he always goes towards the edge twice.

I did it for six minutes... not conclusive I guess, but pretty damn convincing.

Cool, except that even MORE characters can deal with it on Battlefield than on Final Destination or Pokemon Stadium. Not even Falco should have any problems on that stage.

We do look at the nature of each chain grab and infinite. We deem that none of them are bannable. We say that chain grabs are fine because the opponent can not get grabbed.

However, we have already set the precedent that "don't lose the lead" is not enough to justify such tactics in circle camping.

Lots of these questions are easily answerable, and I am not sure why you asked them considering I already said what I believed. I don't think DDD's infinites are as bad as this HA camping. Or Marth's CG on the psi kids. No matter what the match-up is still playable. It's just really hard to work around it; no matter what these characters still have a chance at winning despite how slim it is. In the scenario I bring up, falco has 0 chance of winning.

Yes it was proven that MK's planking is unbeatable.
Sonic's HA camping is unbeatable by certain characters.

I see no difference.

I talked about quantity because I figured you'd consider that sort of thing. I actually don't consider it myself. It was just a way to argue on the same terms.

Falco gets an entire stock to prevent this tactic from happening. It's a tactic that is only effective against certain characters on a certain level. I can't possibly see how that is a zero percent chance of winning. Especially considering the match up prior to the abuse of this tech.

I'm using quantity as an argument though. If it's not effecting enough characters (a majority, or, 26 characters), then why bother banning it in any way? In that case, there's a huge difference between MK's planking being unbeatable by EVERYONE, and Sonic's HA being "unbeatable" by a select few characters on a select few levels.

=====

And again, you guys are not answering me: What if I'm trying to recover? I most certainly wouldn't want to recover when I know I'm at a risk of getting punished, and if using an additional HA or two under the level (or an indefinite amount) to buy me some time helps, then what's the problem?

@TBlock: Certainly.
Now, how many characters can punish the movements?

@ESAM: I completely forgot that the Unity Ruleset committee doesn't give a damn about reasoning.
Silly me.

I CAN choose to recover for a whole two minutes if I feel unsafe about recovering.
And it's happened PLENTY of times to where I've had to utilize HA under the level to survive.

Why is it that I have to "deal with it" as a recovering player in a difficult situation, whereas the opponent gets a free pass just because he refused to change to a character who can deal with this without a problem?

Also, both players accounts? Are you KIDDING ME?

P1: "He's planking"
P2: "No I'm not"

What do you do now?

 

[Nike.]

What's the list of characters that can punish Sonic's HA on Final Destination?
(By this I mean characters that can hit Sonic and still recover to the ledge)

 

[Alphicans]

Ok you're right, falco doesn't have a 0 chance of winning the match. He does have a 0 chance of winning if he loses the first stock. It turns a 3 stock game into a 1 stock game. Doesn't that change the very nature of the rules presented? To me it fits "the game is no longer playable."

Also I can see a lot of characters having issues with this. Marth, GaW, fox, falco, falcon, ganon, ICs, diddy, ike, mario, bowser, DK etc.

Although I'd have to test all of this to say for certain.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Again, it is up to the TO's discretion to punish/allow specific vague instances, such as HA stall. Honestly, I would just start watching the match and do the time/% thing (Since normally, unless there are 2 Metaknights or an Ice Climbers, people are doing damage at a decent rate) because that is MY choice. If another TO wishes to just watch the match and make sure it ends soon, otherwise you will be punished, it is their right to do so. There isn't going to be a ruling on every single instance of every single thing. Asking us to do so is absurd, and you are being pretty ridiculous right now.

 

[T-block]

Okay I take it back. Started another instance of PS1 and now I'm not seeing any consistency.

It is NOT random though... something is determining it, and I'm pretty sure that we will in the future be able to control direction. 6 minutes of predictable HA'ing is too much to be coincidence. It's odd that it feels so different after starting another match though.

 

[Conviction]

Ok by epsys reasoning "any that can be defined as something due being a bad match up property" should be unbanned. Run free mk and characters with infinites.

 

[MK26]

characters with infinites are already running free

up to 300%

 

[T-block]

WAIT

IT'S DETERMINED BY THE POSITION OF YOUR OPPONENT

AZ mentioned this a while back >_>

It's not an obvious "move towards your opponent" thing... if they are close above you I'm not sure how it's decided. If they are standing a solid distance away from you though (horizontally), you will always move towards them.

 

[Espy Rose]

What's the list of characters that can punish Sonic's HA on Final Destination?
(By this I mean characters that can hit Sonic and still recover to the ledge)

There's not a full list, but I know for sure that on Final Destination:

Diddy Kong
Falco
Fox
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Meta Knight
Ness
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle and Charizard can just switch to Ivysaur)
ROB
Samus
Snake
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Yoshi

-can all punish and recover safely. I'm assuming that the punishment won't necessarily KO Sonic for Diddy Kong, Falco, Fox, Olimar, and Pokemon Trainer, and I'm also assuming that Sonic is DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH the stage.

If he's HA'ing closer to the edges, I feel like several other characters may be able to punish him, such as Ice Climbers (though Nana may be put in danger), Ike (maybe), Game and Watch, and Zero Suit Samus.

If Final Destination's flooring DOES influence Sonic's HA stall like PS1 does (assuming T-Block is correct), then it'd be even easier to figure out who can punish and recover safely.

And this is just Final Destination. The characters who can punish will vary from level to level. For example, I doubt many would have trouble dealing with this on Battlefield or Smashville. Hell, in that list above, there's 24 characters who handle it just fine.

Ok you're right, falco doesn't have a 0 chance of winning the match. He does have a 0 chance of winning if he loses the first stock. It turns a 3 stock game into a 1 stock game. Doesn't that change the very nature of the rules presented? To me it fits "the game is no longer playable."

Also I can see a lot of characters having issues with this. Marth, GaW, fox, falco, falcon, ganon, ICs, diddy, ike, mario, bowser, DK etc.

Although I'd have to test all of this to say for certain.

It only turns into a 1 stock game if the Falco loses the first stock, and is playing on a specific level. Sounds just like a bad match up. He should've went Meta Knight.

You'd also need to test this on multiple levels as well to ensure that a majority of the cast can't safely screw with Sonic's attacks on those levels.

=====

Then again, I completely forgot that the Unity Ruleset committee can do whatever they want whenever they want, and I didn't remember that until I read ESAM's last post, so everything I've been discussing is pretty much moot point as is.

I'm mostly done with Sonic's dealy at this point, though I'd still like to see the results of the tests.

@T-Block: Care to link me? I'd like to read it for myself.

 

[T-block]

Just this post in this very thread:

Also I was always under the impression that, if say Sonic is HA stalling, that if I just go o the edge and plank there eventually sonic will HA toward that edge and be hitable. Is this not the case? The only HA stalling videos I saw were right when Brawl was released and at least with those very early methods where you were in relation to Sonic effected where Sonic could stall.

Anyways, it's still the case that Sonic has virtually no control over where he goes. This only helps your argument if anything, right?

 

[Espy Rose]

I thought I already addressed that, T-Block.

No, that's not the case.
At least, not to my memory it is.

Test it out!

And true, it does. If the opponent does control the direction (I'm pretty damn sure they don't), then it's even EASIER to battle HA abuse.

@ESAM: Say what you want, it's totally biased against the Sonic player if they are simply reluctant to recover RIGHT THEN at that moment just because they don't want to.
I guess I should force you to get on stage vs. Ice Climbers then, right? Because what you're doing is stalling.

 

[T-block]

I'm fairly certain. I had already tested it by the time I made that post.

What clued me in was that when I started a match with an idle human as my opponent, I was seeing consistency. I saw different behaviour on Grass/Rock because of the way the terrain was lifting my opponent. When I started a match with a CPU (my wiimote turned off) the consistency was gone. Then I went back to an idle human, and sure enough, as soon as I walked from far away to on top of Sonic, he went in the other direction.

 

[Tesh]

Homing attack not important.

Sonic has lost a Counterpick. As well as Diddy Kong. We DEMAND Yoshi's Island Pipes to combat the batball and splosion man.

You have 3 days.

 

[Espy Rose]

And speaking of which, another thing I wanted to address about this silly little ruleset:

Why the HELL is no tripping not allowed, but texture hacks and music hacks are?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Why the HELL is no tripping not allowed, but texture hacks and music hacks are?

Something along the lines of, "If Tripping is off, You're basically playing another Game"

 

[Life]

Espy:

Us Sonics dash a lot (remember that one time you DDP'd and you tripped into some random smash attack?...)
Wario doesn't dash much, if at all.

Sonic gets more out of not tripping than Wario does. Therefore, game balance is altered, so why not fix Ganon's Fair, and remove planking, and oh no we're Brawl+ now. Texture/music hacks don't alter balance at all so they are fine.

Also, consistency between setups.

Honestly, I hate tripping as much as you do, but we can't really take it out without justifying lots of other crap.

 

[Tesh]

How can you even enforce that? Is someone going to john that "omg I would have won that match if he had tripped some". .......I guess that reasonable. Perhaps its the slippery slope? If we allow an omission of one random factor, does that allow for the removal of other random effects? Like dtilt/ftilt trips? Or Turnips? Judgement?


InCom thats not true. Thats a playstyle issue. Not an actually difference in characters. I can dash very little as Sonic if I want. I can dash alot with Jigglypuff. Fixing Ganon's Fair actually improve a single option for a single character. Not a single option universally.

 

[T-block]

Bah, Final Destination is weird though... not nearly as predictable as PS1. Meh... I think HA under the stage should be legal now (I never was really against it, although I guess that wasn't clear), if only to test and see whether it is truly bannable.

Tripping does change the balance of the game, as InCom said. There's also the logistic issue of making sure each Wii is equipped with the code. Otherwise some stations are better than others, and things get messy.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Espy, what you are arguing about is pointless. We can tell based on both player's accounts of the incident + what I said before + continuing to watch the match after we are called over. It really isn't difficult, and you are blowing it out of proportion. I don't think a Sonic will be trying to recover for 2 minutes straight. How would he get under the stage anyway? He has a double jump and an up-b so you won't ever need to get really close to the other side since they send you quite some distance.

Again, it is up to the TO's discretion to punish/allow specific vague instances, such as HA stall. Honestly, I would just start watching the match and do the time/% thing (Since normally, unless there are 2 Metaknights or an Ice Climbers, people are doing damage at a decent rate) because that is MY choice. If another TO wishes to just watch the match and make sure it ends soon, otherwise you will be punished, it is their right to do so. There isn't going to be a ruling on every single instance of every single thing. Asking us to do so is absurd, and you are being pretty ridiculous right now.

Basically all this.

Why the HELL is no tripping not allowed, but texture hacks and music hacks are?

Preferably there would be no texture/music hacks either, but barring those completely is pretty hard when you need Wii's to run a tournament. What makes tripping different is because it is a complete change to how characters operate, whereas texture hacks and music hacks are cosmetic changes.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm not concerned with the balances that tripping makes or breaks, it's something else:

Can't people SNEAK IN certain cheats (increased damage or knockback) with their texture/music hacks? It doesn't even have to be something major. Just subtle changes to attacks that sway matches in a certain character's favor one way or another.

I mean, as long as you are allowing hacks at all, you are putting people at risk.

@AZ: Good to confirm that the committee fully supports banning things with prejudice.
@TBlock: Well, it looks like the taboo behind the tech isn't going to let us test it out anyways, since the BBR-RC doesn't even feel the need to test it.

This is awful.

 

[Tesh]

If uniformity is an issue, you should note that it SUCKS to play doubles on a super small TV. It also sucks if MK has a friggen tophat on for some reason. But just like tripping/ no tripping, you can request a different station right? Just make it so that no player can refuse a match on a standard unhacked wii?

 

[MK26]

Somebody poke holes in this addendum (besides the obvious "too subjective"):

Any strategy that prevents both players from receiving damage over an extended period of time (length of which is up to the TO's discretion), including but not limited to infinitely repeatable non-damaging release chain grabs and maintaining an offstage position that the opponent's character would have trouble recovering from without one's intervention, is considered stalling. In other words, an action or set of actions that completely incapacitates one character without reaching the 300% stalling limit, or could take the game from its start to its time limit without resulting in either player taking damage, still falls under the stalling rule.

@espy: you either have a negligible benefit or a high risk of getting caught
unless you're playing every game in the tournament on your own wii lol

 

[T-block]

That actually brings up something I've been thinking about.

Are PT/ZeldaSheik players allowed to request a different station if the Wii they are assigned to loads characters particularly slowly?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Good to confirm that the committee fully supports banning things with prejudice.

Umm, no? ESAM isn't even saying it is banned per-say, but if you get stuck under the stage and stay under homing attacking for the next 6 minutes under the fake-excuse of "I'm trying to recover!", you are going to get DQd by most of the TOs I'd bet.

But hey, if you want to label the BBR-RC as having a prejudice than you are basically labeling every single TO and tournament (well over a 1,000 in the last 3 years) as having a prejudice since the HA stall has been explicitly banned at most tournaments SINCE THE FIRST MONTH OF THE GAME. So, basically, get real, stop crying over something that has been a common standard and commonly accepted at used at 95%+ of all tournaments since 2 months after the games release. You are wasting your time to trying to somehow slipperly slope the HA stall argument to D3/etc.

Are PT/ZeldaSheik players allowed to request a different station if the Wii they are assigned to loads characters particularly slowly?

This is a good point. One that we already address in Conduct Rule #10

Players may request that any texture, stage, or other hacks be disabled during a tournament set. If this is unable to be done, they may switch to a different setup if available.

 

[T-block]

I don't see how that is addressed. This does not involve any hacks at all. Some Wiis have disc readers that load characters slower than others, making PT's change time take much longer (which can be a huuuuuuge disadvantage if the difference in time is long).

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ohh, I thought you meant as a result of a hack. That would probably be up to the individual TO running a tournament as it would be impossible to tell if a wii is like that until the situation already arises. Shrug. That might be something we could talk about though.

 

[Espy Rose]

If you actually took the time to READ, AZ, you'd see that that's not my only argument.

And I feel that I should argue against anything if I feel it is wrong. That's how the current ruleset's been developed anyways. How long it's been considered an acceptable standard makes no difference. Don't act like there aren't other rules that haven't been changed since the game's beginning. If I feel like I could try to change it, I will do so. But again, trying to get the BBR-RC to consider this is fruitless since you're basically just saying "deal with it".

That just means that I need to make my arguments more solid.

Oh, and trust me, I have no problem calling every TO in the nation prejudiced. Especially if it's true.

It's also silly to call "I'm trying to recover for 6 minutes" fake without consideration.
It's entirely possible.

And lol @ Capitalizing my name. I got a kick outta it

=====

@MK26: But that doesn't address the problem, really.
Wiis can still be hacked with subtle changes that aren't readily easy to detect. Regardless of the severity of the change, we shouldn't give players the opportunity.

 

[Life]

InCom thats not true. Thats a playstyle issue. Not an actually difference in characters. I can dash very little as Sonic if I want. I can dash alot with Jigglypuff. Fixing Ganon's Fair actually improve a single option for a single character. Not a single option universally.

Question.

Is any given character's dash better than any other given character's dash?

And if you say no, I'm going to tiers-don-exits you so fast Sonic wouldn't even be able to blink. Lessthanthree.

And if you say yes, then you admit, in brief, that I am right.

I win no matter which route you choose.

Also, dash dancing. It's nerfed in Brawl, but if some characters can use it better than others, and you suddenly aren't taking a massive risk by using it--game balance is altered.

Espy: methinks they're getting nervous because you aren't that guy that lost to a Lucas and so they can't shut you down for it.

 

[MK26]

what about your situation is going to change at 0:59 left on the clock that stayed the same between 7:00 and 1:00

and the same exact argument was brought up in the early Brawl+ days...people were apprehensive about others being able to change the codes in ways that would give them an advantage, but in the end, even with money on the line, nobody bothered to try to cheat

 

[Espy Rose]

But the possibility of it happening is STILL there, MK.
Banning ALL game manipulations prevents this, doesn't it?

 

[DeLux]

Don't take this the wrong way:

I've seen a lot of arguing that "X element being bannable will be determined by a reason at the TO's discretion" or something along those lines.

For example:
"Repeated Homing Attack under the ledge is bannable because it's stalling at the TO's discretion"
Previously: "Non Infinite Chaing grab is bannable because it's considered stalling at the TO's discretion"

What's the point of having a universal rulesset if everything is at the TO's discretion? I thought the point of a Universal rulesset was to remove regional/TO/human bias so we all play on an objective playing field.

Don't get me wrong, certain things like venue security and stuff should fall in TO discretion. But things that affect metgame/tactics/gameplay really shouldn't be at the TO's discretion, if the spirit of a universal rulesset is to be honored.

 

[Keitaro]

and the same exact argument was brought up in the early Brawl+ days...people were apprehensive about others being able to change the codes in ways that would give them an advantage, but in the end, even with money on the line, nobody bothered to try to cheat

That you know of.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Don't take this the wrong way:

I've seen a lot of arguing that "X element being bannable will be determined by a reason at the TO's discretion" or something along those lines.

For example:
"Repeated Homing Attack under the ledge is bannable because it's stalling at the TO's discretion"
Previously: "Non Infinite Chaing grab is bannable because it's considered stalling at the TO's discretion"

What's the point of having a universal rulesset if everything is at the TO's discretion? I thought the point of a Universal rulesset was to remove regional/TO/human bias so we all play on an objective playing field.

Don't get me wrong, certain things like venue security and stuff should fall in TO discretion. But things that effect metgame/tactics/gameplay really shouldn't be, if the spirit of a universal rulesset is to be honored.

Basically this... I literally waited for quite awhile till someone finally pointed this out.