The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[T-block]

I do agree with Pictochat banning to some extent. I've seen many examples but i'll use just two.

Polt Vs Denti MM, Bo3(or 5?) Pictochat, Final stock. Transformation comes up while Denti is offstage and can No longer grab the Left side of Pictochat, Instant death.
K Prime Vs Zeton, Same transformation being the reason for a whole stock being taken off with 0% given to Fox/Zeton.

There're videos of these somewhere I believe, But don't feel like searching for them...

Two examples means absolutely nothing. Not sure why you would even bring them up like that. I could show you two examples of people falling through Delfino lol

On Sonic's HA... he's untouchable by the majority of the cast (like... FD level) on PS1 as well, isn't he?

 

[Browny]

Lets talk about yoshi now

 

[Espy Rose]

T-Block: You can ALWAYS hit Sonic during his HA on any level with any character.
You can't say he's untouchable. That'd be incorrect.

 

[Alphicans]

You know what he meant lol.

Will the majority of the cast die if they try to stop sonic on ps1?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Also I was always under the impression that, if say Sonic is HA stalling, that if I just go o the edge and plank there eventually sonic will HA toward that edge and be hitable. Is this not the case? The only HA stalling videos I saw were right when Brawl was released and at least with those very early methods where you were in relation to Sonic effected where Sonic could stall.

 

[BSP]

There's "untoucahble" and then there's "touchable, but you may die"

Sonic's the second

AZ, no. Nothing you (the opponent) do will influence Sonic's direction.

 

[Suspect]

Also I was always under the impression that, if say Sonic is HA stalling, that if I just go o the edge and plank there eventually sonic will HA toward that edge and be hitable. Is this not the case? The only HA stalling videos I saw were right when Brawl was released and at least with those very early methods where you were in relation to Sonic effected where Sonic could stall.

plank the ledge and build up your lgl? lol

 

[Espy Rose]

In the same vein, Sonic has no control over his HA movement either.
And again, what if I'm trying to recover?

@Alphicans: I doubt it, but I don't think it's really been put into experimenting with.
Why learn about a tech that you'll never be able to use?

Besides, it still sounds like a bad match up to me. Sounds like people who main characters who can't handle it better pick Meta Knight or Snake or anyone else who CAN deal with it.

 

[WindMajor]

BPC, it isn't like stuff isn't under discussion right now. The pause/picto thing were literally decided yesterday, we are still discussion many other topics that would change things. We, as we have said before, can update it at any time.

For all those wondering about WHY Picto was banned, it is basically this

Transformations appear in a completely random order (Aside from the fact that they can only appear once per cycle), and it can completely change matches (Such as characters recovering on left side, then a wall is created blocking the ledge, person dies). The complete unpredictability puts too much strain on the players considering how much they have to pay attention. Not only is it just a timer, but it is a "Where can this mess me up" which is pretty much everywhere. We aren't talking only about damaging hazards, but also walls, which are just as influential in a match. So yeah, basically nowhere is safe (Right ledge is safe, as is high in the air above the flames) but it is too much to keep track of at once for players to make it fair and competitively viable. And trust me, this isn't just a bunch of people that never play on Pictochat. It is my most used CP (Most people ban FD) and i know a lot about it. It is the better choice.

The main issue with Picto for the TOs was that you could not predict transformations and in the end this was an unacceptable amount of randomness that has lead to very high profile deaths in tournament in the past.

Just wanted to say thanks for posting the official reasons here.

There's still some things that I'm concerned with about the ruleset, but I'll be more vocal about it when finals are over.

 

[T-block]

I think it's reasonable to label "not touchable without losing a stock" as untouchable. How about we not attack my choice of words, or do I really have to spell everything out?

If the majority of characters cannot touch Sonic on both Final Destination and PS1, the "just ban it" argument no longer applies.

The "don't lose the lead" defense is also garbage, as we could then legalize Summit despite the presence of a hard circle.

Trying to use it to recover, however, is an excellent point. I have seen Kuraudo use it to go under Smashville to escape an edgeguarding situation. On that note, I'm fairly sure Sonic does have some control over where he goes.

 

[Espy Rose]

No T-Block. I don't think you understand.
He has absolutely no control of the direction his HA goes.
None. Zero. Get it?

There's been scenarios where I've only needed 1 HA to recover right.
Then there's been situations where I've had to do it 7-8 times in order to position myself SAFELY and ACCURATELY to recover.
It's too unstable. All it assures us is that we stay alive under the level so long as the opponent doesn't intervene.

And in the "untouchable" case, why not ban Dedede's chaingrab on Donkey Kong? It's the same thing.

 

[Alphicans]

I definitely disagree with that.

In DK vs DDD, DK can play the match. He can try to space as well as possible, and if he does get grabbed the infinite has a 300% cap. The match-up is still playable.

In sonic vs falco on ps1, if falco loses the lead the game is no longer playable. He is forced to either SD, or wait for the clock to run out. I see a clear difference.

Of course this is assuming sonic's HA camping is unstoppable on ps1.

 

[Browny]

lmfao, pathetic as usual.

Wahhhh its not fair that my character cant approach sonic without merely risking losing a stock because im too lazy/stupid/ignorant to pick a character or stage which renders the tactic useless.

But its 100% fair that multiple characters get 0-deathed by approaching DDD, and everyone vs ic's.

G freakin g

Counterpicks exist for a reason. If a character can not beat a tactic, thats called a BAD MATCHUP. Counterpick it or stfu.

 

[Alphicans]

Then why are we putting a lgl for MK?

You're basically setting up the debate whether or not MK should have a lgl. I don't find your argument that convincing.

 

[Overswarm]

I think it's reasonable to label "not touchable without losing a stock" as untouchable. How about we not attack my choice of words, or do I really have to spell everything out?

If the majority of characters cannot touch Sonic on both Final Destination and PS1, the "just ban it" argument no longer applies.

The "don't lose the lead" defense is also garbage, as we could then legalize Summit despite the presence of a hard circle.

Trying to use it to recover, however, is an excellent point. I have seen Kuraudo use it to go under Smashville to escape an edgeguarding situation. On that note, I'm fairly sure Sonic does have some control over where he goes.

Summit doesn't have a circle. >_>

The platform part of its circle can be removed, making it easy to chase an opponent. It's everything else in conjunction with that

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Starters | Counterpicks
Battlefield|Battleship Halberd
Final Destination|Brinstar
Lylat Cruise|Castle Siege
Smashville|Delfino Plaza
|Pokemon Stadium 1
|Pokémon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)|Frigate Orpheon
|Rainbow Cruise

 

[Overswarm]

Last weekend (5/14/11): There were eight Brawl tournaments that occurred around the country. Of those eight, five of them used the Unity Ruleset (62.5%) making it by far the most used Brawl ruleset in a single weekend, ever, and to date the most used Brawl ruleset, ever.

That still doesn't make the people making it any more or less failures.

There are more people that play Brawl FFAs with items on, but we don't really care about that, now do we?

 

[T-block]

No T-Block. I don't think you understand.
He has absolutely no control of the direction his HA goes.
None. Zero. Get it?

I'm obviously not going to argue with you here lol... I'll tell you what I saw though.

Sonic on the left side of Smashville. Two HAs hitting the bottom of the stage, and he's moving right the whole time. He gets to the other side and grabs the other ledge. Maybe he preserves his horizontal momentum or something?

Here's an interesting question: is circle camping okay? Why not?

 

[Espy Rose]

I definitely disagree with that.

In DK vs DDD, DK can play the match. He can try to space as well as possible, and if he does get grabbed the infinite has a 300% cap. The match-up is still playable.

Dedede WILL KO Donkey Kong once it reaches 300%, if they even desire to wait that long.
It's not playable for the entirety of the time the Dedede is chaingrabbing.

Both characters are still in full control of their actions in Sonic's case.

In sonic vs falco on ps1, if falco loses the lead the game is no longer playable.

Wrong. Again, they both still have full control. Falco can also STILL assault Sonic under either level with lasers.

He is forced to either SD, or wait for the clock to run out. I see a clear difference.

If Donkey Kong is losing vs. Dedede, or Ganondorf is losing vs. Ice Climbers, they must force themselves into a terrible position no better than Falco vs. Sonic, or wait for the clock to run out.

It's the same thing. Falco is being put into an unreasonable large hole just as Ganondorf and Donkey Kong are. All this is is an indication of a bad match up.

Of course this is assuming sonic's HA camping is unstoppable on ps1.

By a majority of the cast. 2/3rds, that is, which means of the 39 characters, 26 of them have to be unable to reach him.

Anyone with projectiles can reach him (except Zelda/Sheik, though on many levels they can simply jump down and assault him). Anyone with multiple jumps is fine. Pokemon Trainer is fine because he can just switch to Ivysaur.

For those that have to physically assault him? Wait for the HA to trickle over to the edge of the stage, and punish him.

I severely doubt that 26 characters can't stop it.

 

[T-block]

OS, Summit has a circle -_-

The platform disappearing makes the circle smaller and easier to run, but it is still there. The rest of the stage's features aren't even that bad.

 

[Espy Rose]

T-Block, that Sonic was very fortunate.
Realize that it's your single experience versus my knowledge and experiences.

I don't like to say that often, but in this case, you simply don't understand how HA works.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

[*]The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptible moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.

You guys need to learn to read. It says SUCH AS, as in those aren't the only instances that are considered stalling. That is why the wording wasn't even necessary to change in the first place with DeLux's stupid stuff. A TO knows when somebody is stalling, and they have the ultimate decision to call it out.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's all fine and good, ESAM.

Except Sonic's HA isn't considered stalling.

 

[T-block]

I realize that. My post was asking for an explanation more than it was challenging yours. Stop being so aggressive ._.

I would still like to know why a hard circle is bannable though. Couldn't Marth-Sonic on Spear Pillar just be considered a bad matchup?

 

[Alphicans]

Dedede WILL KO Donkey Kong once it reaches 300%, if they even desire to wait that long.
It's not playable for the entirety of the time the Dedede is chaingrabbing.

Both characters are still in full control of their actions in Sonic's case.



Wrong. Again, they both still have full control. Falco can also STILL assault Sonic under either level with lasers.



If Donkey Kong is losing vs. Dedede, or Ganondorf is losing vs. Ice Climbers, they must force themselves into a terrible position no better than Falco vs. Sonic, or wait for the clock to run out.

It's the same thing. Falco is being put into an unreasonable large hole just as Ganondorf and Donkey Kong are. All this is is an indication of a bad match up.



By a majority of the cast. 2/3rds, that is, which means of the 39 characters, 26 of them have to be unable to reach him.

Anyone with projectiles can reach him (except Zelda/Sheik, though on many levels they can simply jump down and assault him). Anyone with multiple jumps is fine. Pokemon Trainer is fine because he can just switch to Ivysaur.

For those that have to physically assault him? Wait for the HA to trickle over to the edge of the stage, and punish him.

I severely doubt that 26 characters can't stop it.

If sonic has a stock lead, falco cannot win the match. Period. If this is an indication of a bad match-up, then everyone should suck it up vs MK and allow no lgl.

Seriously, where do we draw the line? I see DK vs DDD and ganon vs ICs far more playable than falco (or ANY character that has troubles vs HA) vs sonic on ps1/any other stages that might do this.

 

[Espy Rose]

Except circle camping is more universal. This is a single character with a weak, uncontrollable, unreliable technique that doesn't even work against most of the cast unless he gets that stock lead.
Then again, I don't know much concerning circle camping, to be honest. I can't really talk about it.

@Alphy: You tell ME where we draw the line.
Because I see no distinction. I don't see Ganon vs. ICs or DK vs. DDD as any more or less playable as Falco vs. Sonic.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Espy, L2P and stop trying to ruin the game scrub.

:D

 

[Life]

Hey guuuuuuuuys. You know what time it is?

One-stock food time!

HA "stall" (and most non-quotation-mark stalls) are nearly useless under it. And then we could get to talking about Japes instead of debating an obscure Sonic tactic. Kapeesh?

As for HA: Falco's darn good at getting the lead in the first place. Think MK.

 

[Alphicans]

Except circle camping is more universal. This is a single character with a weak, uncontrollable, unreliable technique that doesn't even work against most of the cast unless he gets that stock lead.
Then again, I don't know much concerning circle camping, to be honest. I can't really talk about it.

@Alphy: You tell ME where we draw the line.
Because I see no distinction. I don't see Ganon vs. ICs or DK vs. DDD as any more or less playable as Falco vs. Sonic.

I draw the line at MK's planking, which is virtually the same thing as sonic's HA camping on certain stages vs certain characters. You can argue that it doesn't effect as many characters as MK's planking, but I will ask why does that even matter?

 

[T-block]

Except circle camping is more universal. This is a single character with a weak, uncontrollable, unreliable technique that doesn't even work against most of the cast unless he gets that stock lead.
Then again, I don't know much concerning circle camping, to be honest. I can't really talk about it.

@Alphy: You tell ME where we draw the line.
Because I see no distinction.

What's not to know? You lose the lead you lose the match because you can't touch your opponent.

So why does it matter that circle camping is more universal? Isn't this an arbitrary distinction? Shouldn't we be looking at the nature of the technique itself, rather than how widespread the use of this technique could potentially be?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Espy, L2P and stop trying to ruin the game scrub.

:D

Not quite sure why I laughed sarcastically at such an Arrogant post such as this...

Hey guuuuuuuuys. You know what time it is?

One-stock food time!

HA "stall" (and most non-quotation-mark stalls) are nearly useless under it. And then we could get to talking about Japes instead of debating an obscure Sonic tactic. Kapeesh?

As for HA: Falco's darn good at getting the lead in the first place. Think MK.

Even with this HA tech being allowed now, I really don't see this being a Game-Breaking Stalling tactic that'd be unstoppable to the point of needing to ban it.
Besides, characters like Falco and Diddy deserve it.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Not quite sure why I laughed sarcastically at such an Arrogant post such as this...


Even with this HA tech being allowed now, I really don't see this being a Game-Breaking Stalling tactic that'd be unstoppable to the point of needing to ban it.
Besides, characters like Falco and Diddy deserve it.

Cuz I'm NEO, everyone laughs when I post.


You ain't know?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Again, it is under the TOs discretion Espy. If you are under there for 30 seconds then come up, I see no problem. However, if you remain there for several minutes, your opponent can pause, and gaging time vs %s, we can see if you were stalling. If you are decreed stalling (It is impossible to make a 100% fool-proof definition) then you will be penalized as the TO sees fit.

 

[Suspect]

Who are you to justify what a character deserves Slush?

 

[Espy Rose]

I draw the line at MK's planking, which is virtually the same thing as sonic's HA camping on certain stages vs certain characters. You can argue that it doesn't effect as many characters as MK's planking, but I will ask why does that even matter?

If quantity isn't the issue when it comes to banning a tactic, then why haven't you banned King Dedede's infinite chaingrabs, or Marth's chaingrabs on the Psi Brats? Or how about any other techniques that more or less degenerates gameplay to focus on a certain aspect?

And I refuse to accept that MK's planking is the same thing. Was it not proven by DMG that Meta Knight planking can technically be unable to get around? How is something that could potentially be impossible for some characters to deal with comparable to something that gives the opponent ample time to attack back with no retaliation?

And if quantity doesn't matter, then why bring up the issue with the majority of the cast in one of your earlier posts (unless that was suggested by T-Block)?

What's not to know? You lose the lead you lose the match because you can't touch your opponent.

So why does it matter that circle camping is more universal? Isn't this an arbitrary distinction? Shouldn't we be looking at the nature of the technique itself, rather than how widespread the use of this technique could potentially be?

Again, if you're looking at the nature of the tech, then why haven't we targeted specific chaingrabs and infinites?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Who are you to justify what a character deserves Slush?

Just a random Unnamed Yoshi main with mediocre knowledge of Brawl, I just don't see the fun in CG'ing/Using lasers all day in most of Falco's Matchups, while being able to create items anytime the Player pleases despite them being banned in tournaments.

 

[Espy Rose]

Again, it is under the TOs discretion Espy. If you are under there for 30 seconds then come up, I see no problem. However, if you remain there for several minutes, your opponent can pause, and gaging time vs %s, we can see if you were stalling. If you are decreed stalling (It is impossible to make a 100% fool-proof definition) then you will be penalized as the TO sees fit.

What if I'm trying to recover, and the opponent isn't giving me that opportunity?
What if I have pausing turned off?

And you can't say that time vs. % = stalling. That's ridiculous. What if we just didn't attack each other at all and stayed on the opposite ends of the map?
Hell, I can let my opponent hit me a bit, then just stay away from him long enough, then call over a TO and say that he was stalling. According to your time vs. %, he would technically be stalling.

Again, you can't "decree" this as stalling. It doesn't fall under that definition. It's too vague.

And again for emphasis: What. If. I'm. Trying. To. Recover?

 

[Suspect]

eggs are items that yoshi creates and throws

 

[T-block]

Espy, what is it that determines which way Sonic goes?

 

[Espy Rose]

No one knows, T-Block.
We've tried to figure out any way to influence the direction since '08, and so far we haven't found one.

Reverse HA'ing doesn't work. Momentum doesn't seem to effect it in any way since HA kills all of Sonic's momentum the moment it's used (which the exception of knockback). Releasing it early doesn't work.

You're free to test it yourself, but as far as I've seen and learned, it just decides to go whatever way it feels like going.