The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Browny]

Picto banned, but brin/rc remain with a single stage ban??????

Good to see absolutely no effort was put into making a stalling rule which makes sense.

I love it how it took 2 months to change a single aspect which was widey condemned since the first minutes of this rulesets existance.

 

[BSP]

I'm on the fence with Picto now. I miss that counterpick/banned section of the recommended rulesets.

But anyway, in terms of moving forward, seems like Brinstar + RC combo with one stage ban remains a problem.

Let's see which direction we head in.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pictochat banned is something I have no problem with, but not adding Japes or Norfair in its place kinda bugs me.

Also, thanks Unity Ruleset, you've finally confirmed that Sonic's HA abuse is NOT banned with this ruleset concerning General Rule #7. I'll be sure to abuse this as much as possible now.

I'm also with BPC/Browny/John#. More starters (7 is friggin' PERFECT), more legit CPs, and 2 stage bans would be awesome.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat banned is something I have no problem with, but not adding Japes or Norfair in its place kinda bugs me.

Also, thanks Unity Ruleset, you've finally confirmed that Sonic's HA abuse is NOT banned with this ruleset concerning General Rule #7. I'll be sure to abuse this as much as possible now.

I'm also with BPC/Browny/John#. More starters (7 is friggin' PERFECT), more legit CPs, and 2 stage bans would be awesome.

!!!!? we lost picto and gained FD!!!!???

 

[Espy Rose]

Falco now weeps if he falls down one stock.

 

[Tesh]

I honestly feel the japes is a horrible stage and will just encourage all the same things that convinced the BBRRC to put a universal LGL on. You think Pit planking is boring? Try Falco/MK camping on japes all game. At least pit has the friggen knockback on his projectile.

 

[Suspect]

Dang, I was just about to pick up sonic too

darn

 

[Life]

Also, thanks Unity Ruleset, you've finally confirmed that Sonic's HA abuse is NOT banned with this ruleset concerning General Rule #7. I'll be sure to abuse this as much as possible now.

How so? I might be arguing this with M@V/Carroll in a second, but I don't understand how the rule's rewording makes HA under the stage absolutely legal. "Reaching a position where your opponent can (sort of) never reach you" is half the point of HA camping.

 

[Espy Rose]

The opponent CAN reach you though.
Every character in the game can technically reach Sonic on any level while he uses HA under the stage.

The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptible moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.
Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.

- The game is still playable
- You are not invisible
- It is not an infinite
- It is not a chain grab
- It is not uninterruptable
- Every character can reach you
- It does not prevent the game from continuing

The opponent is still in full control of their actions.

 

[Alphicans]

Why can't they just say: "Sonic's HA stall is banned"?

 

[Espy Rose]

Because it's not technically considered stalling.
We discussed this in the BBR ruleset awhile back. Calling it "Homing Attack Stall" isn't even the correct term.

You can't call a technique "stalling" if it doesn't stop or prevent conflict. Conflict is still very, very possible from every character.

 

[BSP]

By that definition, as Espy pointed out, it's not stalling

 

[Alphicans]

Ok...

Why can't they just say: "Sonic's HA camping under the stage is banned"?

>__>

If they are gonna limit edge grabs on characters that aren't MK, this should be limited too.

 

[Tesh]

If they are going to add in a direct rule like that, they need to just add Pirate Ship to the stagelist and say "camping under the rock/rudder is banned".

 

[Espy Rose]

If you want to ban Sonic's HA camping, then you'd better be prepared to ban other techniques like scrooging. There's no difference between the two.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

BPC, it isn't like stuff isn't under discussion right now. The pause/picto thing were literally decided yesterday, we are still discussion many other topics that would change things. We, as we have said before, can update it at any time.

For all those wondering about WHY Picto was banned, it is basically this

Transformations appear in a completely random order (Aside from the fact that they can only appear once per cycle), and it can completely change matches (Such as characters recovering on left side, then a wall is created blocking the ledge, person dies). The complete unpredictability puts too much strain on the players considering how much they have to pay attention. Not only is it just a timer, but it is a "Where can this mess me up" which is pretty much everywhere. We aren't talking only about damaging hazards, but also walls, which are just as influential in a match. So yeah, basically nowhere is safe (Right ledge is safe, as is high in the air above the flames) but it is too much to keep track of at once for players to make it fair and competitively viable. And trust me, this isn't just a bunch of people that never play on Pictochat. It is my most used CP (Most people ban FD) and i know a lot about it. It is the better choice.

 

[Suspect]

What happen to that rule with MK having to grab the ledge a certain amount of times or land an attack after gliding under the stage twice?

This simple rule can stop sonics HA camping

"Sonic/MK must grab the ledge after *insert tactic here* certain amount of times*

With a LGL this will just build up how many times they grab the ledge, leading to a DQ.

edit:espy kinda ninja'd me

 

[Tesh]

This stagelist actually makes some sense now imo. Its consistent at least.

@ Suspect, its not even that simple with MK. He can fly under the stage....for a long time actually on like battlefield. He also has good "stalling mix ups" that allow him to get by an LGL pretty easily. The MK LGL really needs to come down to under 30 imo.

 

[Alphicans]

If they are going to add in a direct rule like that, they need to just add Pirate Ship to the stagelist and say "camping under the rock/rudder is banned".

I disagree with this. There are many flaws with rudder camping, and it's very ineffective the majority of the time.

If you want to ban Sonic's HA camping, then you'd better be prepared to ban other techniques like scrooging. There's no difference between the two.

Scrooging being gliding underneath SV, and landing on the platform and repeating? I wouldn't say it's the same thing, because it's not unrealistic for every character to interrupt this. Sonic's HA camping makes multiple characters useless if they fall behind. I'd consider it unplayable. Just because you can reach him doesn't mean it goes against the wording of the rule.

If the only way to hit him is to put your self at huge risk of dying, I'd say it's stalling.

 

[Espy Rose]

Stalling is defined as the Unity Ruleset defines it, Alphy.
Sonic's HA under a stage doesn't follow the definition.

Therefore, it is not stalling, and is legal.

 

[Alphicans]

And I am saying it still fits the definition. If the only way to reach someone is to kill yourself, I do not consider that "being able to reach them."

 

[Suspect]

@ Suspect, its not even that simple with MK. He can fly under the stage....for a long time actually on like battlefield. He also has good "stalling mix ups" that allow him to get by an LGL pretty easily. The MK LGL really needs to come down to under 30 imo.

Matches are like 7-8 minutes, how much time can a mk spend scrooging before he has to grab the ledge?

 

[Espy Rose]

Alphicans: Sounds like it's just a bad match up to me. PLENTY of characters can assault Sonic under the stage.
Donkey Kong risks a stock every time he has to approach Dedede.
Ganondorf risks a stock every time he makes a move vs. Ice Climbers.

It's the same thing.

Plus, it's too much of a gray area to outright ban or limit it. Sonic has nearly no control over where he moves while doing the HA. What if, say, I wanted to recover, but it's too risky to do so due to the opponent's edge pressure? I need to wait for the most opportune time to recover, and using HA several times under the level may help in that regard.

How can you say it's stalling then? I'm just trying to recover.

 

[Tesh]

I disagree with this. There are many flaws with rudder camping, and it's very ineffective the majority of the time.

same as homing attack, most of the time its useless, you literally have to be on FD (strike or ban easy fix just like mk on brinstar) for it to work on alot of characters, on sv or bf its literally useless against 90% of the cast because they can hit you

Scrooging being gliding underneath SV, and landing on the platform and repeating? I wouldn't say it's the same thing, because it's not unrealistic for every character to interrupt this. Sonic's HA camping makes multiple characters useless if they fall behind. I'd consider it unplayable. Just because you can reach him doesn't mean it goes against the wording of the rule.

If the only way to hit him is to put your self at huge risk of dying, I'd say it's stalling.

Sonic has to get a stock lead for it to work on....anyone outside of FD.

 

[Espy Rose]

In which case, the opponent would ban Final Destination.
This abuse only really works effectively on Final Destination anyways.

 

[Alphicans]

I would like to see matches vs a falco where the sonic uses this as best as he can. I need a real visual to assess this.

 

[Tesh]

Whats to show? Just go to FD and use homing attack over and over under the stage. Then see if you can get a hitbox under there without killing yourself with any character if you want to test if they can safely beat it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

The main issue with Picto for the TOs was that you could not predict transformations and in the end this was an unacceptable amount of randomness that has lead to very high profile deaths in tournament in the past.

 

[Espy Rose]

We are unable to do that. There's no video evidence.
TOs have discriminated this technique for no reason since the dawn of Brawl.

And if Falco can't reach them, so what?

Falco having a ton of trouble against Sonic under a level is no different from King Dedede's advantage with Donkey Kong, or Marth's control over the psi brats.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i don't think sonic's HA camping under the stage is broken at all tbh. of course then again i am a pit main know for his arrow control so ill just keep sending arrows down there and then glide attack stage spike you. there, i have found a charcter who beats this tactic always

i guess everyone who couldn't handle sonic's HA planking would have to do the same thing DKs do against DDD, get a secondary or switch mains. i would suugest pit because it doesn't even matter where on the stage you are you can hit sonic under the stage always with an arrow

lol at this being an issue, if you can't beat this simple tactic because of a character flaw then get a second for reals though. i mean it's not planking, he isn't invincible, he is screwed over by plenty of stuff. snake could nikita him down there, arrows, MK, just pick one

 

[Alphicans]

Whats to show? Just go to FD and use homing attack over and over under the stage. Then see if you can get a hitbox under there without killing yourself with any character if you want to test if they can safely beat it.

FD will just get banned as stated earlier. Yeah I could test it, but I was wondering if there were any matches of this happening on BF, SV, lylat etc.

 

[Espy Rose]

No. There are no matches of this being used because TOs don't like it.
It's not even broken. It's just TOs being unreasonable and rational.

 

[T-block]

Hey AZ, do you think you could copy/paste the ruleset into the OP of this thread? Just so people can quote and get the formatting for their own threads.

 

[Browny]

Ill let you do this for me espy :3

Alphicans, ive written multiple essay posts (im talking 2000+ words) on the issue with ha and scrooging, on phone so cbf finding them but u can search my created threads to find it.

If you wanna argue this, catch up on the last years worth of reasoning. youre arguments are SERIOUSLY outdated.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I do agree with Pictochat banning to some extent. I've seen many examples but i'll use just two.

Polt Vs Denti MM, Bo3(or 5?) Pictochat, Final stock. Transformation comes up while Denti is offstage and can No longer grab the Left side of Pictochat, Instant death.
K Prime Vs Zeton, Same transformation being the reason for a whole stock being taken off with 0% given to Fox/Zeton.

There're videos of these somewhere I believe, But don't feel like searching for them...

 

[Alphicans]

I am hardly even making an argument lol.

I am actually inclined to believe the sonic mains here. If they feel the HA camping is not that great/very beatable by pretty much everyone, then I will take their word for it. I have never vs'd a sonic who did this nor have I ever seen it.

 

[Espy Rose]

And again, you haven't seen this because it was constantly under scrutiny by stubborn TOs.
Sonic mains never dared to try this because they KNEW that TOs wouldn't have any of it.

I'm sure it's effective on other levels as well, but I stand by my claim: It's a match up issue. Not a gamebreaking one.
And again, if you limit or ban this, you'll need to prepare to ban every other mechanic that hinders match ups across the board. They fall under the same concept: You're limiting a technique to alter a match up.

...not that the Unity Ruleset hasn't already done that with it's ridiculous LGL.

 

[Alphicans]

I think we will be using the unity ruleset at our tournaments, and maybe kuraudo will show me what it's all about.

 

[Suspect]

What exactly are you guys debating? HA "stall" isn't banned, so just do it or stfu. All this is because picto got banned, dont pretend like it isn't

 

[Espy Rose]

I'll gladly accept dropping Picto for HA Abuse, Suspect.

The Falco and Fox match ups suddenly became slightly less in their favor.