The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Espy Rose]

I just dislike the TO Discretion thing because that allows them to do whatever they want to the ruleset just because they feel like it, online or at the venue of a tournament.

Hell, down here, some tournament banned Meta Knight on the premise that "he's stupid," and nothing more.

 

[MK26]

That you know of.

Except I havent seen a tourney B+ replay desynch partway through because some wiseass decided to increase one character's ftilt by 1% or something

So it's either they were too subtle to get caught (and thus, too subtle to have a non-negligible effect on the matches) or it just didnt happen

Spoiler

wiseass isnt censored?

this post has been edited repeatedly

ylyl

 

[Espy Rose]

Again, it's more about the fact that it can happen and it does change the game, even though it's very minor.

Hell, tripping does that too, and it's banned. Why not prevent this altogether by banning all manipulations?

 

[MK26]

since when is tripping banned?

 

[Espy Rose]

Misworded that, sorry.
I meant the No Tripping code.

 

[MK26]

we ban all game-altering manipulations

as long as a hack doesnt change the way the game is played, and as long as it doesnt affect the players' ability to play, then its fair game
you try to hack to increase your character's ledge range, if you dont play on your wii during the tourney and dont get caught, it probably doesnt matter
you get caught, you get permabanned and ostracized from the community for being desperate enough to try to cheat at a videogame

simple as that

youre suggesting we dont implement a perfectly fine rule because soembody might try to break it...

also @browny below: bbr =/= brc

 

[Browny]

Delux knows whats up

Although I can answer the question for you. The brc wont state the rules explicitly, because that will result in HA being legal. They refuse to accept that a mid-tier character can have a tactic which destroys top/high tiers. Because in their so-called 'wisdom', they deem sonic a bad character, anything he does to break certain matchups ON CERTAIN STAGES ONLY, is therefore overpowered and bannable.

If they state HS is banned, that leaves the door wide open for scrooging to be banned, or even... Banning sonic.

 

[Browny]

No mk26, the brc is FULL of personal bias. I mean... Its the exact case. They are arguing why sonic should be limited because they think its unfair.

It DOES NOT break any written rules, its 100% character bias.

 

[Espy Rose]

MK26, are you saying that damage and knockback increases are not game altering?

 

[MK26]

posting this in a new post because it deserves it:

imo banning ha stall has a precedent in banning melee peach bomber / jiggs pound stall
use it for recovery if you want but be reasonable about it

is it character bias that caused the mbr to ban a stall in a position where the opponent couldnt reasonable expect to stop it?


@espy: no, im saying that if you change the damage or kb of a move, and a replay of the match is made, it will desynch and you will get caught

if you dont play on your own wii you will get no benefit from cheating and still risk being caught

imo nobody would go through the trouble of learning psa/good ol' hex hacks just to cheat at vbrawl

im not saying let it happen, im saying if someone wants to try, let him, then catch him, put a notice out on swf that he's a cheat, and BAM he's never going to a smashboards-run tourney ever again

 

[Espy Rose]

And if they get away with it, that's okay?
Better to prevent it 100%.

Again, the fact that the possibility is there is what the problem is. The possibility only exists BECAUSE the BBR-RC allow it to exist by allowing hacks.

But whatever.

 

[MK26]

the possibility of someone stalling with sonic's ha is still there, Espy.
Banning sonic from pressing the B button without a directional input prevents this, no?

dammit you edited your post
now this doesnt make sense

 

[Tesh]

topic is live?

 

[Espy Rose]

Except you can't stall effectively with HA, MK.
And directional input is irrelevant.

 

[MK26]

but you said you could do it for 6 minutes straight
im pretty sure that doing anything without touching the ground for 6 minutes will either seriously strain your ability to stay under the ledge grab limit or be considered stalling

(and what i meant by directional input was banning b without touching side-b/up-b/down-b)

 

[Espy Rose]

If T-Block is correct about the opponent being able to manipulate Sonic's HA based on position, then it doesn't matter if they can stall for six minutes, because the opponent has control over their trajectory.

And I see nothing wrong with trying to recover for 6 minutes.
I saw ESAM run away from Ice Climbers and cling to ledges like his life depended on it for half of a match. Looked like the same thing to me. He was just trying to get into a good position on stage, and couldn't because of constant ledge pressure.

Suddenly, Sonic can't do the same thing?

Besides, recovering for 6 minutes sums up most characters' match up with Meta Knight.

 

[T-block]

As far as I can see from my somewhat limited testing today, Final Destination is the only place where Sonic's HA could be problematic. It might be due to the shape of the bottom of the stage (combination of geography and opponent's location?).

I know now that it is certainly not a threat on BF/SV/PS1 though.

 

[Espy Rose]

Thanks for the effort, T-Block.
But they have the conch.

 

[MK26]

back to the melee analogy: i dont think anybody ever defended peach bomber stalling by saying that he was just using it to recover
afaik thats a pretty subjective rule that hasnt gone challenged in 10 years so...
i think the same logic applies here

@t-block: maybe HA acts differently whether it bounces off walls or ceilings?

 

[Alphicans]

Hmm I see, the person on stage can control where sonic goes. Then I guess there is nothing to really argue.

 

[Espy Rose]

MK: If you're trying to recover with Peach Bomber, wouldn't you be rising?
As in, getting closer to the ledge so that your opponent can harm you?

And can't that be done on parts of the level that are easy to access for characters?

 

[T-block]

back to the melee analogy: i dont think anybody ever defended peach bomber stalling by saying that he was just using it to recover
afaik thats a pretty subjective rule that hasnt gone challenged in 10 years so...
i think the same logic applies here

@t-block: maybe HA acts differently whether it bounces off walls or ceilings?

Appeal to tradition? Just because it's gone unchallenged doesn't make it right. In any case, no one was against Peach Bomber being used to gain height, or to stall recovery once or twice. Issues arose when it was being used to stall the match. We can apply the same logic here, except that now it seems like HA can't even be used to stall the match lol

Nah, walls/ceiling shouldn't matter... I didn't see any distinction from my testing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wait wait wait.... Noone knew that The opponent can control where Sonic goes while he's using HA under the stage?
I found this out Day 1 of brawl... Infact. When I was still playing Wi-Fi there were Sonic's who tried using this same tactic so I just jumped as high as I could so Sonic could eventually HA Downwards instead of trying to home in on Me.

 

[T-block]

Wait wait wait.... Noone knew that The opponent can control where Sonic goes while he's using HA under the stage?
I found this out Day 1 of brawl... Infact. When I was still playing Wi-Fi there were Sonic's who tried using this same tactic so I just jumped as high as I could so Sonic could eventually HA Downwards instead of trying to home in on Me.

Except this doesn't work lol. You're mis-remembering.

The opponent's position only matters horizontally.

 

[Scatz]

IIRC, couldn't Sonic keep the HA going if he was close enough to the stage so that the second he moves, he bounces into the stage?

 

[MK26]

@espy: you can move up, or you can pause a tiny bit so that you stay at roughly the same level each time you use the bomber
and the problem arises from doing so in a position below where your opponent can expect to recover if he jumps down to attack you
or even to keep yourself alive (say, under FoD) until the end of the match from a position where you otherwise would not have a chance to recover

"stop stalling"
"but i'm recovering, not stalling"
"you keep falling back down to where you were"
"im not that good at recovering"

subjective rule? yes. worked fine? yes. can be modified to work fine in brawl? i think so.

@t-block: kinda an appeal to tradition, but not 'since it's gone unchallenged, it must be right'...if the arguments that applied to peach bomber/pound stall apply to HA 'stall', then theres no reason not to remove the quotation marks and ban the tactic (which appears to only be the case on fd now?)

facing towards edge/facing inward?

 

[Espy Rose]

Peach Bomber can only move in one direction to recover. It's easier to make the judgment call in that case.

 

[T-block]

IIRC, couldn't Sonic keep the HA going if he was close enough to the stage so that the second he moves, he bounces into the stage?

Nope. After he collides with the stage, he moves left, right, or not at all before he can use HA again (up to 1/5 of Battlefield I'd say).

@espy: you can move up, or you can pause a tiny bit so that you stay at roughly the same level each time you use the bomber
and the problem arises from doing so in a position below where your opponent can expect to recover if he jumps down to attack you
or even to keep yourself alive (say, under FoD) until the end of the match from a position where you otherwise would not have a chance to recover

"stop stalling"
"but i'm recovering, not stalling"
"you keep falling back down to where you were"
"im not that good at recovering"

subjective rule? yes. worked fine? yes. can be modified to work fine in brawl? i think so.

@t-block: kinda an appeal to tradition, but not 'since it's gone unchallenged, it must be right'...if the arguments that applied to peach bomber/pound stall apply to HA 'stall', then theres no reason to remove the quotation marks and ban the tactic (which appears to only be the case on fd now?)

facing towards edge/facing inward?

Direction facing does not matter.

Not sure what we're arguing anymore... I think we can treat Sonic's HA like a Melee Peach Bomber that cannot be used to stall the match. Even on FD, it looks like he will pop out of one side eventually even if your opponent were trying to keep you under for some reason (oddly enough, when I moved to the left side on FD, Sonic tended to pop out the right side =\).

 

[Espy Rose]

The argument was null once TO discretion was mentioned, T-Block.
So we're arguing for no real reason.

 

[MK26]

@espy: you can move up, or you can pause a tiny bit so that you stay at roughly the same level each time you use the bomber
and the problem arises from doing so in a position below where your opponent can expect to recover if he jumps down to attack you
or even to keep yourself alive (say, under FoD) until the end of the match from a position where you otherwise would not have a chance to recover

"stop stalling"
"but i'm recovering, not stalling"
"you keep falling back down to where you were"
"im not that good at recovering"

subjective rule? yes. worked fine? yes. can be modified to work fine in brawl? i think so.

@t-block: kinda an appeal to tradition, but not 'since it's gone unchallenged, it must be right'...if the arguments that applied to peach bomber/pound stall apply to HA 'stall', then theres no reason not to remove the quotation marks and ban the tactic (which appears to only be the case on fd now?)

facing towards edge/facing inward?

note the 'if'...judging by what im hearing from t-block, it can't actually be used to stall (against a knowing opponent on any stage but fd, and due to randomness on fd)...and thus isnt a stall...and thus shouldnt be banned

 

[DeLux]

I'll direct the Lab to make it a testing priority if you guys feel it warrants it in determining if a ban is merited.

 

[T-block]

The argument was null once TO discretion was mentioned, T-Block.
So we're arguing for no real reason.

Nothing wrong with that =x I find this all pretty interesting.

note the 'if'...judging by what im hearing from t-block, it can't actually be used to stall (against a knowing opponent on any stage but fd, and due to randomness on fd)...and thus isnt a stall...and thus shouldnt be banned

Then yes, I'd agree. Those are my conclusions from all this at the moment.

I'll direct the Lab to make it a testing priority if you guys feel it warrants it in determining if a ban is merited.

I'm making a thread right now actually.

 

[DeLux]

it would be faster if you started discussing it on skype as well

 

[Espy Rose]

Well yeah, it's interesting, T-Block.
But I came with the intention to change a ruling, not to chat.

 

[DeLux]

The argument was null once TO discretion was mentioned, T-Block.
So we're arguing for no real reason.

This is the huge normative issue that I see with the rulesset. Sometimes it can't be avoided and TO discretion as a form of arbitration has to exist within the construct of the rules. However, to intentionally place it when the goal is to remove bias from region to region, TO to TO, person to person, it's an issue on a normative level.

 

[Trent]

So. Pictochat is banned, yet Rainbow Cruise is legal.
Why does MK get so many counter picks, but Sonic gets none?

Also, all the effort I put into learning a stage is now obsolete, is there a specific post that states why Pictochat is banned? I don't feel like surfing through pages of text.

 

[WindMajor]

For you, Trent: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12721609&postcount=1889

 

[MK26]

not to mention the right ledge isnt even safe if you get the wrong kind of spring showing up rofl

 

[Trent]

For you, Trent: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12721609&postcount=1889

Thanks. I'm still over it though. Is there also a post or anything that highlights the changes between the 2 rule sets?

 

[WindMajor]

Once again, Trent: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12719528&postcount=1806

@Alphazealot Mind putting the change log in the OP?