The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Maharba the Mystic]

oh. well thank you sir, don't take offense as after i finished typing that i slammed down 3 shots of jack to reward my efforts XD

although i purposely spellied the stuff up top like that. but no im out of any chazer so im just like, "**** it, im bitter atm, need to fincd my DP and shwish it down" but now im sad becuaes appearnlyt im out, jus finish 2 more shots tho, so now i still am thirsty

edit: im thinkin that if i make coffee, it will be a goud chaxser, or shoul d i just cahse wit h the bud light i have and drink some water aftewords.

@jon
im not gonna ignore ally, that's ignoring a statistic. thus you loginc be flawed,

also, this has nothing to do with money dude, you seaid METAGYME. if you wnana talk cash, that's a diff arguement ill back up later when im more capable. as for now, you look dumber for trying to prove a point that is irrelevent to the current arguement. you said metagame development, i shut you down, you changed subjuect embarresed. end of story

 

[sunshade]

Hello my name is Mahaba the mystic and I am an alcoholic.

I think its safe to say that smash leads people to alcohol abuse.

 

[John12346]

If I took a shot after every post I felt was rewarding to type, I'd have 0 brain cells left ^^;

Edit: Everyone make sure you've read the last post on the previous page. It took me quite a bit of time to compile it and I don't want it to go unnoticed.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

make sure you read my edit.

and sunshade, im not an alcoholic if i get drunk every once in a while, although i admit that i used to have chonic alcoholism. i was planning on drinking tonight anyways. call me an alcoholic, i don't care because at one point that was true. but watevs, im not into the whole "lets make fun of someone else's shortcomings and act higher up on the good person's tier list persay than they are"

i have a post i could link you too if you wanna know what my life is. so until then, don't judge me kid

 

[John12346]

The metagame is who we should be picking to win our matches for us. The amount of money won by a character should be a good enough representation of that, even moreso when you compare it to the character's overall usage.

Your argument against me was that a character's success is solely dependent on his or her popularity. My counter argument was that it was solely dependent on his or her tier placement. And I proved my end of the deal.

And me telling you to ignore Ally's ICs doesn't really change my argument. Outliers on a chart are supposed to be pointed out.

 

[sunshade]

If any argument is going to be made for metaknight being banned it should be that ledge based gameplay is no different than standard play and metaknight being broken on the ledge is no different than him being broken on the stage.

The ledge grab limit serves as a surgical nerf to keep him in the game however this beckons the question of "if action is mandatory, and out options are nerf him or ban him, why keep him?". From there it is simply a matter of presenting arguments that a metagame without the metaknight is a more desirable and enjoyable metagame.

 

[Spelt]

Except, the problem is that theoretically it is different. In smash there has always been a subconscious division between the stage and the ledge. Brawl blurred that division, but people still see it as they always have.

 

[John12346]

I'm not really sure what prompted that but

Yes, quite a few people I've talked with have insisted that MK's time-out abilities would be the crux of a pro-ban argument if it ever came up, rather than the monetary data or CP ability. It may be harder to argue now though since there's a universal LGL.

And of course, as you said, the aforementioned monetary and CP data would serve as the icing on the cake to show why the game would be better overall w/o him.

Anyway... what would you suggest the pro-ban side should argue about his time-out abilities now that there's a universal LGL? Would you say keeping the arguments as is would be satisfactory? Some kind of change needed? Toss some ideas around, I want to hang on to anything for the uncertain future, y'dig?

 

[Spelt]

an lgl isn't enough to stop mk from timing out.
i think redhalberd said he timed someone out at whobo with like ... 16 ledgegrabs.

 

[John12346]

Edit: nvm, redundancy

 

[sunshade]

I'm not really sure what prompted that but

Yes, quite a few people I've talked with have insisted that MK's time-out abilities would be the crux of a pro-ban argument if it ever came up, rather than the monetary data or CP ability. It may be harder to argue now though since there's a universal LGL.

And of course, as you said, the aforementioned monetary and CP data would serve as the icing on the cake to show why the game would be better overall w/o him.

Anyway... what would you suggest the pro-ban side should argue about his time-out abilities now that there's a universal LGL? Would you say keeping the arguments as is would be satisfactory? Some kind of change needed? Toss some ideas around, I want to hang on to anything for the uncertain future, y'dig?

The argument I said does not change at all with the existence of a universal ledge grab limit. You simply say the community made the wrong choice and banning is better for the community, going on the assumption that metaknight is in fact broken without a ledge grab limit.

Except, the problem is that theoretically it is different. In smash there has always been a subconscious division between the stage and the ledge. Brawl blurred that division, but people still see it as they always have.

Care to go into detail on why ledge play is any different than typical gameplay and why it should be treated as such? I literally cannot think of any reason it would be.

@maharba: It was a joke, I didn't actually mean any offense from it.

 

[Spelt]

Not particularly. I wasn't really making an argument for it, just talking about how people already perceive it.

 

[Ghostbone]

The problem with the Pro-ban argument is basically that there's no proof that a metagame without MK is better than one with him, for reasons such as character viability. (and even that's subjective)

And it's impossible to get proof of that without him actually being banned......
Though a temporary ban would work, and is what I think should be pushed for.

 

[Orion*]

oh. well thank you sir, don't take offense as after i finished typing that i slammed down 3 shots of jack to reward my efforts XD

although i purposely spellied the stuff up top like that. but no im out of any chazer so im just like, "**** it, im bitter atm, need to fincd my DP and shwish it down" but now im sad becuaes appearnlyt im out, jus finish 2 more shots tho, so now i still am thirsty

edit: im thinkin that if i make coffee, it will be a goud chaxser, or shoul d i just cahse wit h the bud light i have and drink some water aftewords.

@jon
im not gonna ignore ally, that's ignoring a statistic. thus you loginc be flawed,

also, this has nothing to do with money dude, you seaid METAGYME. if you wnana talk cash, that's a diff arguement ill back up later when im more capable. as for now, you look dumber for trying to prove a point that is irrelevent to the current arguement. you said metagame development, i shut you down, you changed subjuect embarresed. end of story

LOOOOOL ****

Care to go into detail on why ledge play is any different than typical gameplay and why it should be treated as such? I literally cannot think of any reason it would be.

Step 1: Buy a Brawl disc
Step 2: Put it in your Wii
Step 3: Go into Versus and pick any Character
Step 4: ??????

Spoiler

you should probably play a person here

????????????
Step 5: Realize that many of the fundamental rules of the game change offstage significantly

 

[Tesh]

offstage is a fundamental of the game perhaps?

you must recover

 

[Orion*]

I don't really consider something that covers such a broad range of options/topics, such as being offstage a fundamental

fundamentals = things like spacing, zoning, reads, risk reward, technical skill, teching, mindset, ect

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What you consider to be a fundamental is irrelevant, you play with what the game gives you.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@sunshade
oh no worries then man. i just took it with the wrong tone. i mean it's not like we can tell the difference between someone's joke tone of voice or serious tone of voice by reading what they type

now onto my next point.

honestly the biggest differance between a game with planking type ledge play and a game with an LGL is that planking in the long run is really gay and boring. there is nothing fun about just sitting on the ledge, doing a couple uairs, and then regrabbing the ledge for 8minutes (this is coming from a pit main mind you). i mean ya, planking for a little bit during a match is okay, but the whole game becomes ******** and dumb when the metagame is based off of who can hold the ledge longest. hell i timed out a poor wario/MK main both rounds my second pool game at whobo3, and i felt terrible about my win because it was gay (against his wario at least, MK deserves to be planked because he is so good he planks onstage ). and then i went on to have the weirdist and actually fun 3 rounds of my life against zeton because i promised myself i wouldn't just plank him and not earn my outcome.

anyways getting sidetracked. anyways, holding the ledge for 8minutes is not fun. no one likes watching it. it sure the hell doesn't prove how good you are as a player. and it makes too many characters in this game that are great due to onstage game inviable.

when you have onstage game, you have variety of options, you have combos and hard reads, you have legitimate stage CP options, you have character diversity. more characters with all of their diverse movesets and abilities and ATs actually get the chance to use them. the more character's you get to play against, the more fun you have. really the only problem is that MK is still the best with or without an lgl, and thus there isn't anywhere near as much diversity among characters as there could be. however don't take this wrong, im not pro-ban, im neutral or temb-ban but in the end i just look at MK as like the boss of the game, a challenge that i can overcome with a lot of study and struggle.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Maybe try picking up a game that isn't broken, then?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lol just notice, grim your watever thing says "low tier specialist". but you have mk next too your name. lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The irony xD

Well, I use Jigglypuff as a secondary and I can use lots of other low tiers as well, in both games.

 

[Orion*]

What you consider to be a fundamental is irrelevant, you play with what the game gives you.

Fundamental- Definition
"of, involving, or comprising a foundation; basic"

Foundations or basics in brawl, or any other fighting game.
"things like spacing, zoning, reads, risk reward, technical skill, teching, mindset, ect"

Why edge guarding isnt a part of that

A. It isn't a foundation (it is made of many of the things I listed above)
B. It's not very basic. Even at high/top level play you don't see many top players edgeguarding properly, optimally and efficiently.
C. Not needed to win against high level players, as it is an optional tactic and for some characters probably not a good idea.

Many people in fact ignore edgeguarding altogether and stick to just making optimal ledge pressure onstage due to the high risk reward scenario unless they have a hard read. This is a perfectly fine strategy
However if you removed a fundamental aspect from any high or top level players game, they probably would fall. Imagine if Ally/M2K didnt space, zone, read, realize risk reward, have tech skill, mindset, missed techs, ect. all of those would drastically change how they place.

However you don't see Ally or Anti, jumping offstage to go for superman gimps like m2k.... (In fact I remember atomsk told me other than maybe throwing out a super safe shadow loop he ignores it in the ditto) Why? Because edge pressure is also a legitimate strategy and just tacking on consistent damage from getting your opponent in a bad position is great.
Fundamentals, foundations, basic/core gameplay are essentially the roots of what we develop ourselves in. Can edgeguarding be a key strategy in a players game? Yes, of course. But that can relate to anything, I might say spamming ganondorfs fair is my main focus..

So no Grim. Its not what I personally believe, and it's not me ignoring what the game gives me, in fact it's me trying to do the opposite. I try and take every little thing the game gives me, and take it as far as I personally can in it's potential.
These are core aspects in pretty much every fighting game, and before you continue to spout more more information and be completely headstrong in it I would sincerely respect it if you tried cutting the time you post in half, and using it to go past just playing the game. But really delving deep into playing it and look past the 2 dimensional surface glass that you do.

To end this rant,

If you ever meet me irl I'm generally a pretty nice person, and even feeling like I have to be rude to other members of the community is quite frustrating (even if it's online), so this is in no way a disrespect to your personal character.
But on these forums you are a Complete ****. I am absolutely tired of reading pretty much everything you post because its literally like arguing with someone stuck so hard in their faith they don't care if you wave Jesus in front of their eyes. I really feel like you don't even care or know anything, you just argue a point for the sake of arguing.

I don't really care if you respond to this or not either. You don't need to, because I'm blocking you.

-Orion

P.S. This is not just relative to this post, but more torwards you as a poster in general. Feel free to contact me on aim or something though

PokeOrion@aol.com

 

[Orion*]

crashboards

10 char

 

[Tesh]

Doesn't the ledge grab count for each Ice Climber that grabs the ledge? So......ICs have a 25 LGL right? So I can time out ICs as long as I get some decent edgeguarding in now and then? 25 is super low. ICs have a horrible ledge game, they should be given a much higher LGL. There is no imbalance of risk for a planking ICs.

 

[Ripple]

Doesn't the ledge grab count for each Ice Climber that grabs the ledge? So......ICs have a 25 LGL right? So I can time out ICs as long as I get some decent edgeguarding in now and then? 25 is super low. ICs have a horrible ledge game, they should be given a much higher LGL. There is no imbalance of risk for a planking ICs.

end game stats only count what popo did

 

[Tesh]

Really? Why have I always seen rules with higher LGLs for Ice Climbers specifically? Didn't MLG have like 45 for everyone, 35 for norfair and 60 for ICs?

Weird.

 

[Ripple]

Really? Why have I always seen rules with higher LGLs for Ice Climbers specifically? Didn't MLG have like 45 for everyone, 35 for norfair and 60 for ICs?

Weird.

no they didn't, at least I never heard or saw that

and you have it backwards with everyone and norfair

 

[Ghostbone]

Soo....Unless I'm misunderstanding this.

Orion is saying ledge/off-stage play should be treated differently from typical gameplay because it's not a fundamental part of gameplay, it's just made up of the fundamental aspects of gameplay.

But that is the exact same as on-stage play.

I'm confused.

 

[fkacyan]

Soo....Unless I'm misunderstanding this.

Orion is saying ledge/off-stage play should be treated differently from typical gameplay because it's not a fundamental part of gameplay, it's just made up of the fundamental aspects of gameplay.

But that is the exact same as on-stage play.

I'm confused.

Off-stage gameplay should only occur when you're dominating on-stage gameplay.

 

[Ghostbone]

Off-stage gameplay should only occur when you're dominating on-stage gameplay.

Ok

Justification?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

fundamental- definition
"of, involving, or comprising a foundation; basic"

foundations or basics in brawl, or any other fighting game.
"things like spacing, zoning, reads, risk reward, technical skill, teching, mindset, ect"

why edge guarding isnt a part of that

a. It isn't a foundation (it is made of many of the things i listed above)
b. It's not very basic. Even at high/top level play you don't see many top players edgeguarding properly, optimally and efficiently.
C. Not needed to win against high level players, as it is an optional tactic and for some characters probably not a good idea.

Many people in fact ignore edgeguarding altogether and stick to just making optimal ledge pressure onstage due to the high risk reward scenario unless they have a hard read. This is a perfectly fine strategy
however if you removed a fundamental aspect from any high or top level players game, they probably would fall. Imagine if ally/m2k didnt space, zone, read, realize risk reward, have tech skill, mindset, missed techs, ect. All of those would drastically change how they place.

However you don't see ally or anti, jumping offstage to go for superman gimps like m2k.... (in fact i remember atomsk told me other than maybe throwing out a super safe shadow loop he ignores it in the ditto) why? Because edge pressure is also a legitimate strategy and just tacking on consistent damage from getting your opponent in a bad position is great.
Fundamentals, foundations, basic/core gameplay are essentially the roots of what we develop ourselves in. Can edgeguarding be a key strategy in a players game? Yes, of course. But that can relate to anything, i might say spamming ganondorfs fair is my main focus..

So no grim. Its not what i personally believe, and it's not me ignoring what the game gives me, in fact it's me trying to do the opposite. I try and take every little thing the game gives me, and take it as far as i personally can in it's potential.
These are core aspects in pretty much every fighting game, and before you continue to spout more more information and be completely headstrong in it i would sincerely respect it if you tried cutting the time you post in half, and using it to go past just playing the game. But really delving deep into playing it and look past the 2 dimensional surface glass that you do.

To end this rant,

if you ever meet me irl i'm generally a pretty nice person, and even feeling like i have to be rude to other members of the community is quite frustrating (even if it's online), so this is in no way a disrespect to your personal character.
But on these forums you are a complete ****. I am absolutely tired of reading pretty much everything you post because its literally like arguing with someone stuck so hard in their faith they don't care if you wave jesus in front of their eyes. I really feel like you don't even care or know anything, you just argue a point for the sake of arguing.

I don't really care if you respond to this or not either. You don't need to, because i'm blocking you.

-orion

p.s. This is not just relative to this post, but more torwards you as a poster in general. Feel free to contact me on aim or something though

pokeorion@aol.com

...


...


...


Have my babies

 

[Lord Chair]

Suck more black phallus, Cadet.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LOL chair, there aren't many around me... I live in like the whitest places ever. One of my buds is like 9 inches, is that close enough?

 

[Life]

BPC has confused me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sexually? That happens to a lot of my friends...


ANYWAYS. Where were we beforehand? Was there anything worthwhile being discussed at all?

 

[Lord Chair]

iirc it was something about trolling an entire community

 

[clowsui]

Ok

Justification?

edgeguarding: high risk, high reward

ledge pressure: low risk, medium/high reward

think about it

 

[BSP]

Anyone else wonder why there isn't a copy of the ruleset in the OP?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

because the link to this thread is in the ruleset i guess. idk why not tho

 

[Tesh]

All I see is they editted out the statement about actually responding to concerns.