The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Yung Mei]

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lets make M2k main Ganon and somehow still beat the **** out of everyone

 

[sunshade]

And yet the legality of both stages is still questionable, because evidently people are still stupid.

The legality of yoshi island brawl is questionable? What?

Theo I know you hate randomness (I hate it to), but brawl is a game with randomness inside of it and the ability to manage inconsistency is a skill (if you don't think so go talk to competitive poker, pokemon, or outdoor sports, players).

Now obviously if randomness causes such major shifts in consistency of results that a stage becomes an inadequate method of determine the superior player, then yes stepping in and saying "this is not ok" is moderatly understandable. However things simply being random are not inherently bad enough to justify the banning of an element of the game.

Spoiler

The misspelling of your name was intentional.

 

[Tesh]

The only thing a 9 starter stagelist does is make more characters more viable. I don't want to repeat myself, but MK took 32 out of the available 80 top 16 spots, which is a percentage of 40%, while no other character even had more than 10 of those top 16 spots.

Despite the fact that a lot of different characters placed well at MLG, MK still ***** the living **** out of the circuit.

I would, however, like to point out... the fact that we DID have more diverse results is a good thing for the balance of the game as a whole, even if it doesn't solve the MK issue.

Did he **** it harder than other non MLG nationals with a conservative stagelist? Nope. Show me results from a national with a strict stagelist that has diverse results? Hell, show me a regional with 80+ players at least. If you can show me 1, I'll be surprised. If you can show me 1 for each MLG that had diverse results, your argument might actually make sense.

Its not even about "solving the mk issue". The stagelist will never be able to do that. Thats why we have LGLs, scrooging rules, IDC rules etc. The stagelist cannot and should not be designed to stop MK from ****** stuff. And MLG is solid proof that Green Greens and Norfair don't throw salt in the wound like people are claiming.

lets make M2k main Ganon and somehow still beat the **** out of everyone

lol, the truth behind this comment is undeniable. You can't just say top 8 is "just players". It still says something about viability and who can succeed with the rules and stages we have available to them. Did you see any Ganondorfs? Falcons? Zeldas? Nope. Its also not a big coincidence that MK takes the majority of the top spots most of the time. Its certainly not MK mains simply being more skilled than top mains of other characters. So if you see Sonic, ZSS, Ike, Luigi and Ness (the last 2 had some serious help) placing high, its not just the players.

 

[John12346]

Tesh, read what I said again. I agree with you that 9 starter stagelist increases diversity and viability among non-MK characters, it just doesn't solve the MK problem. x__x

 

[sunshade]

With a LGL there is no metaknight problem. 50% dominance is not nearly as horrible as people think it is.

 

[Alphicans]

It does not alternate. And yes, the shyguys are pretty ****ing bad :/.

Lol that was in response to Ripples post of Twinkie's findings

 

[John12346]

With a LGL there is no metaknight problem. 50% dominance is not nearly as horrible as people think it is.

It's actually closer to the mid 40%'s but how is that "not a problem" in a game of 36 characters? I could understand if it were closer to 20% or something, but come on, this is a bit obscene.

No other character even comes close to the dominance that MK is peddling.

 

[Alphicans]

Lots of the best players use the best character, it should come as no surprise that MK dominates the tournament scene.

John, what you're doing is FAILING TO CONSIDER A COMPARISON GROUP. If you can show that in most fighting games that the best character in the game only has a 20% dominance, then maybe you'd have a point, but at the moment you don't.

 

[Tesh]

Tesh, read what I said again. I agree with you that 9 starter stagelist increases diversity and viability among non-MK characters, it just doesn't solve the MK problem. x__x

I'm just putting the point out there because in these discussions, people always bring up how a 3 or 5 stage starter list keeps MK in line and how he would destroy brawl with norfair legal. 0 evidence of that and plenty evidence against it.

It's actually closer to 40% but how is that "not a problem" in a game of 36 characters? I could understand if it were closer to 20% or something, but come on, this is a little too obscene.

No other character even comes close to the dominance that MK is peddling.

Didn't someone (I thought it was you) have data showing that the percentage of MK mains getting money is actually lower than the percentage of Falco, Diddy Kong and Snake mains? They were all in a 20-25% range of mains actually placing in the money.

Perhaps MK gets most of the money because most of the community uses MK?

 

[sunshade]

Games have survived and been played in an enjoyable diverse competitive enviroment for over 15 years with only 4-5 characters legal. SF4 sagat had more percentage dominance then metaknight, and O.Sagat in ST did as well, storm in MvC2 was easily on more than 60% of teams.

Non perfect character balance is not a necessity. Play style diversity is, and thats why MvC2 was able to strive with so few characters, same goes for ST. SF4 I can't make a fair statement about since I personally despise the 4 series.

 

[Spelt]

a larger starter list wouldn't make more characters viable lol.
if characters aren't considered viable in the current stage list than a possibly slightly more favorable 1st game isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

[Tesh]

Game 1 is the most important game of the set.

 

[Alphicans]

a larger starter list wouldn't make more characters viable lol.
if characters aren't considered viable in the current stage list than a possibly slightly more favorable 1st game isn't going to make much of a difference.

Watering down the difference between stages...

Game 1 is the most important game of the set.

Yup.

 

[Ripple]

saying storm is on over 60% of teams in mvc2 is really dumb considering there are only 5-8 viable characters and you have a team of 3

 

[T-block]

I could pose a cogent argument as to why the ghosts are as bad if not worse than Pictochat altogether if I so chose to, but nobody would read or act on it anyways, removing the stage from the list, hell, even from starters, is too much of a new thing for most people.

I've tried. As you predicted, no one will listen to you =)

YI:B should be a starter even in a 5 list. the ghosts aren't random, the platform tilting is though. which has little to no affect on gameplay whatsoever.

You made me flip out >=(

That is more than random enough. The timing window is huge (it takes much less than four seconds to free fall to your death) and which side it appears on is random.

 

[Spelt]

it's not like a 9 starter stage list is going to add in norfair or RC.
we're talking about relatively simple stages here.

 

[Tesh]

Random platform tilting can screw you up. Accidentally platform canceling can leave you defenseless when you intended to put a hitbox out. Still far more isolated than Pictochat **** blocking you with walls, platforms and ceilings.

 

[Ripple]

I've tried. As you predicted, no one will listen to you =)



You made me flip out >=(

That is more than random enough. The timing window is huge (it takes much less than four seconds to free fall to your death) and which side it appears on is random.

how can you defend pictochat and yet hate YI?

 

[Spelt]

He's just arguing about it on principle.

 

[sunshade]

how can you defend pictochat and yet hate YI?

I think he was talking about how he compares pictochat's randomness to yoshi's island and how nobody thinks of it as a valid example.

 

[T-block]

how can you defend pictochat and yet hate YI?

I don't hate YI lol... well, I do hate it, but I don't push for its ban or anything.

A starter list that aims to minimize random stage influence has absolutely NO reason to have YI though.

 

[Ripple]

but like I said, the actual influence of YI is minimal

 

[John12346]

Ouch, that honestly felt like a cross-over combination. D:

Although the three of you made essentially the same argument; the fact that lots of people use MK guarantees he'll generally place higher. I'll just bring up my points as best I can, then...

First off, MK has the second highest (money won/number of times used) ratio so far in 2011, only losing to Ice Climbers. However, for some reason, the Ice Climbers have been used a relatively low amount of times compared to the rest of the high tiers, so the data in their case has too low of a sample size and therefore is too blocky to draw any conclusions from. Time will sort this issue out by itself.

Secondly, we have over 120 different MK users who have placed in the money so far, while no other character has broken 50 yet. The data on it's own is enough to suggest that this many MK users are placing high simply because MK is that good of a character. Now, you're going to say, "This is a result of MK being used a lot," but when you take (number of users placing in the money/number of times this character has been used), MK wins.

And lastly, to address the "45% isn't an issue business," you have to remember that in other games where high percentages as that wouldn't even cause people to bat an eye, there are far less viable characters to work with, making a 60% of winnings for one character seem fine in the face of a game where only 6 or 7 characters are used. Ya'll proved it yourselves with the MLG results. Brawl is a game with a significantly larger cast of viable characters, and in the face of that, even a lower percentage of winnings at ~45% can be considered unreasonable by the game's standards.

It's all just food for thought. Take it as you will.

 

[T-block]

Ripple, I really don't see how you can say this is minimal lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk1oT4HzxRQ

 

[John12346]

I think the question we should really be asking when it comes to random stages is, "Does it consistently **** people over in tourney matches, or is it a rare/situational occurrence?"

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you all are crazy if you think YI ghosts are too random. you know what makes them not random enough to matter? THE FACT THAT NO MATTER WHICH SIDE YOU ARE ON, THEY ARE ALWAYS GONNA BE IN JUST THAT ONE FINITE AREA!!!!!! ghosts are set to pop up in a set area, if you can't work around that, then you are a scrub. it doesn't matter if they appear only every 12ish seconds on either side, you the player needs to account the exact location of where they pop up and if you are going for a gimp or whatever, have better placement.

also, the platform tilt is so slow and able to be accounted for that calling it random is pathetic. iirc isn't based on who stood where ever on it and their weight?

 

[Spelt]

Ripple, I really don't see how you can say this is minimal lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk1oT4HzxRQ

You said like a week ago posting videos like this for pictochat was a horrible argument...

besides, that marth could've made it back to the stage at anytime by just up b'ing.

 

[T-block]

I did not lol

They effectively show the possibilities - what COULD happen. The videos of Pictochat are legitimate evidence that silly things can happen. They do not give an accurate representation of how OFTEN something happens, and Ripple's post, in my opinion, was one that could be refuted by showing possibilities.

 

[Ripple]

I don't doubt possibilities. but really t-block? linking 1 video? I disapprove.

I could show you ness getting ****ed over by SV's balloon

 

[sunshade]

I think we need to either accept that randomness is universally bad (and go the way of thio) or accept that randomness is part of the game and that we will simply have to deal with it on occasion.

 

[Alphicans]

T-block had a post that showcased multiple videos.

I don't see how the number of videos shown matters anyways. It's either you think frequency is important or not. If you think it is, videos don't prove/disprove anything. If you don't think frequency matters, one video should be enough to prove your point.

 

[Spelt]

I did not lol

They effectively show the possibilities - what COULD happen. The videos of Pictochat are legitimate evidence that silly things can happen. They do not give an accurate representation of how OFTEN something happens, and Ripple's post, in my opinion, was one that could be refuted by showing possibilities.

Your post was talking about frequency...
As well as the one you were replying too.

 

[T-block]

I don't doubt possibilities. but really t-block? linking 1 video? I disapprove.

I could show you ness getting ****ed over by SV's balloon

Your post was talking about frequency...
As well as the one you were replying too.

Now that I re-read it, I guess it was.

Sorry Ripple, I read your post as a "even when it does affect the match, it doesn't change much" type thing for some reason. My bad.

I still maintain that on a fundamental level, the only difference between YI:B and Pictochat in terms of randomness is how OFTEN the stages sway matches.

 

[Ripple]

I hate black or white decisions. no gray area allowed, even though that's how we all function

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

*sigh* and here we go with the mental masturbation again... Anyone wanna bring up mario bros? Metaknight is not going anywhere. Even if you could get a few TOs to agree, it would completely dash the unity ruleset to pieces.

FD and BF are only random is a cosmetic way though right?


"everyone" was stupid then.

Crawldashing, ness/lucas recovery, a few other things.

Why do people think a diverse stagelist or start list makes MK broken? Might I remind people of the MLG circuit? Very diverse stagelist, 9 stage starter list. Sonic, ZSS, Ness, Ike placing in top 10? Toon links, Olimars and other junk in top 16?

Because MK is soooooooooooo broken with norfair legal and the possibility of Delfino game 1.

Seriously, I can't stress this enough. MLG had a ****ing amazing stagelist for MK. What happened? MK did worse there than he did in ages. IIRC, Amazing Ampharos had some great insights into this...

Every bit of data I've seen suggests that, contrary to most arguments, Meta Knight is fairly agnostic to the stage list. Last I checked he was somewhere in-between 1/3 and 1/2 of the metagame which is fairly region independent so the stage lists really aren't doing much to change his totally individual performance. What they do seem to do is change how the other charaters do. A narrow stage list, from what I've seen, concentrates the remainder of the metagame in the hands of a few characters whereas a broader stage list spreads it out a lot more. The narrower list has the advantage that the next few best characters compared to Meta Knight will look more favorable, but the broader list has more diversity. The results of the MLG events should back this up very nicely really.

An analogy that should maybe make it clear is this. Consider that the cast of Brawl is a family. Meta Knight is the father, and all the other characters are the kids. Daddy Meta Knight takes a pie that is to be shared among the family, cuts it in half, and takes half for himself. None of the kids can say anything about this since he's daddy Meta Knight, but they can decide how to divide up the pie among the rest of them. One plan is for the oldest kid, Snake, to take half of the remaining pie, for the next oldest twins Diddy and Falco to take pretty big slices, and for most of the younger kids to just get crumbs. This means when comparing pie pieces, the oldest kids don't look that bad compared to big daddy Meta Knight. Another plan is to divide the remaining pie as evenly as possible, which isn't really that evenly given that you are trying to divide half of a pie 35 ways which is actually really hard if anyone has ever tried it but does allow for a lot of the kids to be pretty close in the amount of pie they have. Of course, little Ganondorf is allergic to pie no matter what.

This is in no way an argument relating to MK banning, and we aren't going to go there. I'm just putting out there my observation that MK doesn't really seem to care what the stage list is and does awesomely to about the same degree on all of them; it's all those other characters that care.

 

[Spelt]

AA was majorly overthinking that.
MK didn't do that well in MLG because people weren't used to the weird stages so people didn't use them because they weren't comfortable.
and MK's have been subconsciously cping RC/brinstar for auto-wins for so long why would they do anything else?

i would elaborate, but that's more thinking than i would like to do at this hour.

 

[John12346]

Actually, if MK was banned, I couldn't see the Unity Ruleset changing much, if at all. What do you mean?
.
.
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Also 32 out of 80 available top 16 places for all 5 MLGs where no other character got above 10 of them speaks lengths about MK, if you ask me... especially when you couple it with Spelt's reasoning.
.
.
.
And ugh how many times do I have to repeat myself? My goal isn't to convince a few TOs to ban MK. Hell, my goal isn't even to get MK banned. My aim is to get the community poll up with the proper voter filter in place and have the BBRRC accept the result. I want to know what the true results of the poll would've been if they weren't horribly skewed by alternate accounts.

And considering all of the new information we've found about MK, both good and bad, alongside the fact we're in an era of ruleset change and discussion, now is the PERFECT time to go in with guns blazing.

If MK gets banned as a result of my actions, I only consider that a fringe benefit.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So...people are saying that the stage list is AMAZING for MK...even though...his results were the same with the MLG stagelist as they were with, let's say, #####, Whobo, and the like which had more conservative stage lists, yet he is amazing on them?

Let me impart on you fellows some knowledge. I'm gonna use a normal conservative stagelist and MLG stagelist and show where MK will probably be going.

Conservative:

Starter:
FD
BF
SV
YI
Lylat

MK is probably gonna strike SV and FD, so realistically he is going either BF or YI.

Counterpick:
Halberd
Frigate
PS1
RC
Brinstar
Delfino
Castle Siege

MK will ban FD most of the time. His opponent will take him to either PS1, Castle Siege, or SV (Probably not SV due to scrooging).

The opponent is going to ban either RC or Brinstar, and MK will go to the other one. IN a finals set, the other CP would be Frigate or Delfino, most likely.


MLG
Starter:
FD
SV
YI
PS1
BF
Lylat
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino

So MK is probably gonna strike Castle Siege, FD, SV, and PS1
His opponent will strike Lylat and Delfino for sure, then probably BF and Halberd.

So...they start on YI which was still the other choice for the 5 stage starter list

CPs:
Brinstar
RC
Frigate
Norfair
GG
Pictochat
PS2

MK will probably ban FD/Picto, and his opponent will CP him to either FD, Picto, or PS1 (No scrooging son).

His opponent is going to ban either RC or Brinstar, and MK will CP to the other one. IN a finals set, he will still probably go to Frigate or Delfino, as they are both better stages for him than Norfair.


Is there a difference in how powerful MK is on his CPs?
NO! He will CP to the same stages ANYWAY since Norfair/GG aren't his top 3 CPs.

Is there a difference in how powerful MK is on the neutrals?
No. Yoshis, depending on the MU, can be slightly worse or better for MK.

MK doesn't do any better with or without those stages.


Does the opponent do better with Counterpicking?
YES! He has more options since now you have additional flat levels (At least adding Picto) which MK doesn't thrive on. PS1 is a good option either way, but adding Pictochat helps tremendously.

Does the opponent do better with more neutrals?
Again, character dependent, but with more options he is bound to either do better or just as good as the 5 stage starter list.

 

[Orion*]

Vertical approaches vs MK are now possible. Some characters gain a lot from being able to attack his underside. Dair camping isn't fantastic vs everyone. Also, MK has less of a grounded game, and his grounded game wrecks a lot of characters more than his air game.

You're right, it is match-up specific, but this stage is actually a good CP for some characters vs MK. The same cannot be said about brinstar.

why is mk letting you get underneath him if you are a character that even has the jump speed / options to get past dairs

as for MLG

i honestly dont care about the results looking at it outside of a player perspective because... well lag LOL

I think he was talking about how he compares pictochat's randomness to yoshi's island and how nobody thinks of it as a valid example.

It's not...

you all are crazy if you think YI ghosts are too random. you know what makes them not random enough to matter? THE FACT THAT NO MATTER WHICH SIDE YOU ARE ON, THEY ARE ALWAYS GONNA BE IN JUST THAT ONE FINITE AREA!!!!!! ghosts are set to pop up in a set area, if you can't work around that, then you are a scrub. it doesn't matter if they appear only every 12ish seconds on either side, you the player needs to account the exact location of where they pop up and if you are going for a gimp or whatever, have better placement.

also, the platform tilt is so slow and able to be accounted for that calling it random is pathetic. iirc isn't based on who stood where ever on it and their weight?

Thank you. Gotta agree with you on this XD

Comparing random lol platform to RAWR SPIKE is pretty stupid imo

I think we need to either accept that randomness is universally bad (and go the way of thio) or accept that randomness is part of the game and that we will simply have to deal with it on occasion.

I hate black or white decisions.

This was my feelings to sunshades post ^^^


....tbqh the more I spend time in this discussion the more I just want FD/BF/SV rules >_>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ESAM: yeah, that's kind of the point we're getting at.