The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Reizilla]

If we actually played more than the best 2/3 and worst 2/3 in tournament, people would know a lot more about matchups on each stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, 100% is clearly impossible.
But you can learn about 40% on your own, ask someone else for other 30% and let the other 30% on your preference/confidence/performance of your character on certain stages (even if you know the MU well).
At least that is very possible.


Also, what Shun said.

 

[fkacyan]

People need to understand their characters on each stage AND the OTHER characters on each stage before they can make a judgment about both characters fighting eachother on the stage.

Most people dont even get their own characters let alone the rest of the (relevant) cast.

 

[ぱみゅ]

People need to understand their characters on each stage AND the OTHER characters on each stage before they can make a judgment about both characters fighting eachother on the stage.

Most people dont even get their own characters let alone the rest of the (relevant) cast.

And that's what I meant earlier:

I'm pretty sure that's players' fault, and most importantly, it can be corrected simply by learning.

 

[sunshade]

A. There's no 100-0 statistic ever
B. We don't know if these unwinnable matchups would even happen because... well we haven't even tested it and already there seems to be some argument on who beats who there.
C. It doesnt matter if it fosters competitive gameplay or not since that is irrelevant to argument and is completely subjective, I'm purely proving a point that its the same as D3s cg being banned.

A. You know what I mean. 99-1, 90-10, horribly mindbogglingly difficult. Choose your number/words which you prefer the most but you know what I am saying.
B. Fair point, I will invest some time on temple beyond what I have already.
C. Again fair point, I personally think the if we want to stay truest to the game and avoid subjectivity, we need to abolish the counterpicking system, and have full stage list striking every round but thats not a fight worth fighting at the moment.



@Theo: You don't need to know the match-up perfectly on every stage to say "hmm I think brinstar is worse for my diddy when fighting metaknight than frigate is. Maybe I should ban it".

 

[fkacyan]

@Theo: You don't need to know the match-up perfectly on every stage to say "hmm I think brinstar is worse for my diddy when fighting metaknight than frigate is. Maybe I should ban it".

ThIo. It's a ****ing I. THE LETTER I.

I'm not talking about bans here, I'm talking about using FLSSing. Flossing? That's what its new name is when talked about out loud now.

FLSSing is good in theory because it leads to a true neutral, but in practice this will not happen because people don't know every stage's matchup level, and often people don't play to a matchup but rather to preference.

 

[sunshade]

So what you are saying is that the system is bad because it allows players who don't know the game as well as their opponent to be given a disadvantage?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Actually, considering FLSS, (prepare for massive theorycraft)

How relevant is character viability game one? Consider this:


FLSS with the BRC stage list at this time. It's like 15 stages? All of the currently viable characters should remain viable with it, some less, some more.

But, with a liberal stage list (like Raziek's list for the tournies he runs), which contains ~30 stages, almost no character should be viable game 1, because most characters aren't good on a lot of stages, and if your opponent has 14 strikes, they can remove all static or similar stages, while they are good on all stages, thus losing far less.

Wouldn't this decrease character viability by an extremely large amout?

/end theory

 

[ぱみゅ]

It will only hurt characters that aren't good with diverse stages (Diddy, ICs mainly).
It will buff those who are good on them, but are not on close battle (Jiggs is the first one that comes to my mind).

Also, if larger stagelists becomes a serious problem, they can be cutted down.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I disagree with that actually. Think, with 30 stages, all of the stages in the BRC list would get struck. I can't see half the cast working with that.

Cutting down to around 20 stages seem fine though

 

[fkacyan]

So what you are saying is that the system is bad because it allows players who don't know the game as well as their opponent to be given a disadvantage?

No...

I'm saying that the "benefit" of the match starting on a true neutral stage does not occur because that true neutral would not be played on, thus making the extra time expenditure over LLSSing (Limited list) not worth it.

Ideally? Best system, in theory. But if we knew enough about the game we'd just have a list of true neutrals by matchup and the striking wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i say we all start spelling his name as thEo just to troll his ***

 

[sunshade]

Most characters (even those who are generally less well rounded like the ice climbers) do better on more stages than we give them credit for. I will be using diddy kong for my example. Green stages are stages he likes, Light Blue are stages he is neutral towards, and Red are stages he hates.

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Pictochat
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 2
Battleship Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Yoshi's island (pipes)
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's mansion
Port town aero dive
Green greens
Distant planet
Norfair
Brinstar

So, even using an over the top liberal stage list, diddy kong has 6 stages he likes, 7 he is neutral towards, and 8 he hates. If I were to guess diddy kong would most frequently end up playing on a stage like PS2, Frigate, Halberd, or Lylat.

Using the unity ruleset I think diddy, falco, and ice climbers are all going to stay good characters, slightly worse than they are now, but still very good.

No...

I'm saying that the "benefit" of the match starting on a true neutral stage does not occur because that true neutral would not be played on, thus making the extra time expenditure over LLSSing (Limited list) not worth it.

Ideally? Best system, in theory. But if we knew enough about the game we'd just have a list of true neutrals by matchup and the striking wouldn't be necessary.

The true neutral of a match-up is subjective to the players involved. If a player simply is horrible when playing on brinstar, and has a strong hatred for the stage, even if he plays metaknight he won't do as well there as a stage he favors.

Regardless I don't see how using a system which is inherently less likely to reach the true neutral is any better.

 

[T-block]

Slightly off-topic, but why does Diddy hate Luigi's Mansion? I love Diddy on LM. But I love LM in general, so... >_>

 

[Tarmogoyf]

It does look more balanced like that.

Point retracted

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, why would Diddy do bad on Mansion?

Also, he does good on Mario Bros.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy is really good on Mansion. His Up-B is one of the most damaging attacks in the game and Mansion is like the only stage you can consistently use it on.

 

[fkacyan]

Most characters (even those who are generally less well rounded like the ice climbers) do better on more stages than we give them credit for. I will be using diddy kong for my example. Green stages are stages he likes, Light Blue are stages he is neutral towards, and Red are stages he hates.

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Pictochat
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 2
Battleship Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Yoshi's island (pipes)
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's mansion
Port town aero dive
Green greens
Distant planet
Norfair
Brinstar

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

You evaluate a stage based on the matchup being played, not based on how good your character is there overall. A character's overall best stage might not be their best for a particular matchup.

 

[sunshade]

Diddy is really good on Mansion. His Up-B is one of the most damaging attacks in the game and Mansion is like the only stage you can consistently use it on.

I guess you really do learn something new everyday. I was unaware that diddy fond of mansion.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

You evaluate a stage based on the matchup being played, not based on how good your character is there overall. A character's overall best stage might not be their best for a particular matchup.

Correct, but the intention of that list was to show that linear characters like diddy wouldn't get screwed as badly as people like to say they would in FLSS.

 

[Raziek]

Just for those who were curious, 30 is WAY over-estimating the number of stages I have legal.

We're currently using 21, 7 more than the current Unity Ruleset.

Spoiler

Starter:

Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination
Halberd
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick:

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Pictochat
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Port Town Aero Dive

Additions include:

Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Port Town Aero Dive

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sounds like a fun stage list! green greens, japes, and mansion are 3 of my favorite stages

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You do have 2 stage bans, right?

 

[Orion*]

Id go back to melee first gotta be honest...

and I suck *** at that game roflmao

 

[Blacknight99923]

Diddy is really good on Mansion. His Up-B is one of the most damaging attacks in the game and Mansion is like the only stage you can consistently use it on.

I'm not by any means an expert but doesn't diddy take 10 damage every time he up Bs into the ceiling? It just seems like it isn't always worth the trade off. At the same time my knowledge of diddy isn't anywhere near that of a respectable diddy main




Also pretty much agree with orions sentiment, and most people who are from regions who don't use those stages probably agree as well.

 

[Alphicans]

All of those stages are really fun to play on. You guys are crazy.

 

[Orion*]

yes. they are fun. and I will play them like that :D

the second it turns for money, its not fun at all. because its just play like a homo and hope the stage does all the work for you

 

[sunshade]

If you don't enjoy playing like a homo then you shouldn't play brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is neutral where the match up is played with the least influence to favor either character or is it favored to a stage list where the more stage dynamic character should get an advantage?

 

[Alphicans]

Luigi's Mansion - Ok, can be pretty homo.
Pirate Ship - Can be homo if you can rudder camp, but besides that, this stage is fun to play on. Not many other homo tactics
Jungle Japes - not homo unless you're vsing falco.
Norfair - Always a fun stage to play on. Planking isn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be, especially with an lgl.
Green Greens - Can be homo with the bombs and ****, but overall a good stage, and tests strategic positioning
Distant Planet - VERY HOMO. I'll give you this one.
Port Town Aero Dive - This stage is so much fun. If you're dumb and get hit by the cars, dying at like 60, then yeah this stage can be homo, but overall an enjoyable stage.

Just sayin'. These aren't all that bad.

 

[T-block]

Out of curiosity, do people think Pictochat is worse for randomness than Green Greens? x.x

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Luigi's Mansion - Ok, can be pretty homo.
Pirate Ship - Can be homo if you can rudder camp, but besides that, this stage is fun to play on. Not many other homo tactics
Jungle Japes - not homo unless you're vsing falco.
Norfair - Always a fun stage to play on. Planking isn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be, especially with an lgl.
Green Greens - Can be homo with the bombs and ****, but overall a good stage, and tests strategic positioning
Distant Planet - VERY HOMO. I'll give you this one.
Port Town Aero Dive - This stage is so much fun. If you're dumb and get hit by the cars, dying at like 60, then yeah this stage can be homo, but overall an enjoyable stage.

Just sayin'. These aren't all that bad.

on a scale of 1-right, you are correct. yes you have exceeded the scale.

*throws down smoke and disapears*

 

[Tesh]

http://youtu.be/yPxim3HxBnQ

4:55

what's this?

see my comment on da vid

This should be consistent, considering they are on a timer. Any time someone puts you into that position you should be able to do with that Diddy Kong did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMRBuUffU8w almost right?

Out of curiosity, do people think Pictochat is worse for randomness than Green Greens? x.x

This is something I have been wondering about Green Greens. Every defender of Pictochat will claim that you should be able to plan for sudden appearances all over the stage with no warning, but when it comes to Green Greens, its unreasonable to prepare for sudden changes in TWO spots with an effect that should NEVER EVER kill below 120 with good DI. Green Greens is only slightly less predictable than YI:Brawl.

I don't think people will accept stages like Green Greens or YIipes or Distant Planet because of DDD though. And people thought MK killed diversity and depth.

 

[T-block]

I'm a defender of Pictochat, and I don't claim that =x

But yeah, I've definitely seen a lot of inconsistency when it comes to judging randomness (not from everyone, so don't jump on me for that statement).

 

[Tesh]

I'm a defender of Pictochat, and I don't claim that =x

But yeah, I've definitely seen a lot of inconsistency when it comes to judging randomness (not from everyone, so don't jump on me for that statement).

What could your stance on Pictochat possibly be if you don't maintain that the level of random is okay?

 

[Raziek]

You do have 2 stage bans, right?

Yes, I forgot to mention that.

 

[T-block]

Every defender of Pictochat will claim that you should be able to plan for sudden appearances all over the stage with no warning

I'm a defender of Pictochat, and I don't claim that =x

What could your stance on Pictochat possibly be if you don't maintain that the level of random is okay?

I never said that lol. You speaking with the assumption that "sudden appearances all over the stage with no warning" equates to randomness that is not "okay". My stance on Pictochat is that it lies within the acceptable limit of randomness, as determined by the precedent set in our treatment of other stages.

 

[Tesh]

Ok, thats not subjective. Pictochat DOES have random events that occur everywhere and defenders of Pictochat feel that its okay.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

IMO, the problem is that picto is more random (than GGs), but usually doesn't have as big an effect as the randomness of GGs

But I absolutely despise GGs to the point that I can't be objective about it so...........

 

[T-block]

Yes... again, I don't see how that does not align with what I said.

 

[Tesh]

Yes... again, I don't see how that does not align with what I said.

You said you aren't one of "those" pictochat defenders. How can you not be? You either think that what the stage is fit or not fit for competitive play.

Also with decent DI, Green Greens won't really ever have an effect worse than what Pictochat can do. And if we factor in bad DI...well *points to vid of wario dying from a missle at 26%*. Green Greens random factor is also FAR more predictable as far as locations and effects. If you plan around the possibility of one random event there, you don't get screwed over by another like on Picto.