The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[T-block]

I defend Pictochat. I acknowledge that randomness occurs in many places and with little warning. I still think the stage is fit for competitive play. I'm trying to say it's wrong state "if you acknowledge that randomness occurs in many places with little warning, then you must acknowledge that Pictochat is anti-competitive" - that's...quite the leap in logic.

The Green Greens comparison is interesting though... is randomness not often cited as the reason for banning Green Greens? I can't keep up with what people believe about stages nowadays lol.

 

[Tesh]

I defend Pictochat. I acknowledge that randomness occurs in many places and with little warning. I still think the stage is fit for competitive play. I'm trying to say it's wrong state "if you acknowledge that randomness occurs in many places with little warning, then you must acknowledge that Pictochat is anti-competitive" - that's...quite the leap in logic.

The Green Greens comparison is interesting though... is randomness not often cited as the reason for banning Green Greens? I can't keep up with what people believe about stages nowadays lol.

I was only saying that Pictochat defenders believe that level of random is acceptable. My point is just that if Pictochat's level of random is okay, why isn't GGs?

 

[fkacyan]

Randomness period is bad. If I had it my way any stage with randomness sans SV would be banned.

8|

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every stage is random, Thio.

EVERY stage.

 

[T-block]

I was only saying that Pictochat defenders believe that level of random is acceptable. My point is just that if Pictochat's level of random is okay, why isn't GGs?

It's not obvious which one is more "random" in terms of how drastic the effect on the match is. When MLG was first announced, everyone seemed to say Green Greens was "more" random than Pictochat.

But I agree... there's inconsistencies in the general opinion

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Those people are just plain wrong, T-Block. They are just salty because one of them has a big, strong explosion to designate it's randomness while the other is a much more subtle wall or spike.

Green Greens' randomness is isolated to two different areas which can be safely traversed if you aren't an idiot. Pictochat's randomness encompasses the entire stage.

 

[Tesh]

Every stage is random, Thio.

EVERY stage.

FD and BF are only random is a cosmetic way though right?

It's not obvious which one is more "random" in terms of how drastic the effect on the match is. When MLG was first announced, everyone seemed to say Green Greens was "more" random than Pictochat.

But I agree... there's inconsistencies in the general opinion

"everyone" was stupid then.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

BF isn't even cosmetically random, it's based on the time of day

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tesh, they are random due to where the player spawns at the start of the game.

 

[Tesh]

So 3 stage striking then? fd/bf/rc? Sounds like a nice balance actually.

@ grim, does that really matter on (nearly) symmetrical stages?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think Ghostbone told me once that Ness/Lucas' recovery works differently on the different sides of FD and BF.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm not by any means an expert but doesn't diddy take 10 damage every time he up Bs into the ceiling? It just seems like it isn't always worth the trade off. At the same time my knowledge of diddy isn't anywhere near that of a respectable diddy main

Assuming both the up-B hits and the barrel discharge hits, then Diddy deals 28 (10% for the Up-B + 18% for the barrel explosion) damage and takes 5% himself. So it is a net gain of 23% attack that even though it would technically be two hits, there is simply no way to avoid the barrel discharge on Mansion so those are guaranteed (assuming you are first hit by the up-B).

 

[fkacyan]

Every stage is random, Thio.

EVERY stage.

OK? Randomness should be limited as much as humanly possible.

 

[Tesh]

OK? Randomness should be limited as much as humanly possible.

Uh oh.....

This discussion is now about banning dashing, peach, ddd, gnw and.....well everyone with random trip rates on moves. So....I guess we should stop playing brawl.

 

[Orion*]

If you don't enjoy playing like a homo then you shouldn't play brawl.

A. i play like a complete ****** you obviously dont know me LOL
B. it has nothing to do with camping more than the stage doing the work for me instead of me having to actually fight

Jungle Japes - not homo unless you're vsing falco.
Norfair - Always a fun stage to play on. Planking isn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be, especially with an lgl.

Port Town Aero Dive - This stage is so much fun. If you're dumb and get hit by the cars, dying at like 60, then yeah this stage can be homo, but overall an enjoyable stage.

Just sayin'. These aren't all that bad.

JJ is ****ing homo I think like every match I've played there goes to time :/
also I used to main falco and just beat people FAR better than me because of it im sorry its not reasonable LOL

MK can time out most characters pretty easily on NOFAIR even with a LGL lmao, its pretty hard to approach him

PTAD i honestly never bothered to learn so idk

Every stage is random, Thio.

EVERY stage.

semantics lol

I think Ghostbone told me once that Ness/Lucas' recovery works differently on the different sides of FD and BF.

you think

good argument lol

Uh oh.....

This discussion is now about banning dashing, peach, ddd, gnw and.....well everyone with random trip rates on moves. So....I guess we should stop playing brawl.

as much as humanly possible obviously relates to what youre saying....

oh wait it doesnt lol

 

[Raziek]

Orion, unless Norfair is better than Brinstar or RC for MK, it still doesn't matter in the long run for him. (Excluding Finals rounds, however)

Also, would you mind elaborating on what makes MK particularly hard to approach on Norfair vs. any other stage?

 

[Ripple]

lucas and ness ricochet off the right side of stages, they just stop or crash when on the left

 

[ADHD]

BF isn't even cosmetically random, it's based on the time of day

Lol, I was skimming and thought you were talking about Green Greens at first.

Then I thought, good troll, but reread it and was disappointed.

 

[Blacknight99923]

lucas and ness ricochet off the right side of stages, they just stop or crash when on the left

their still dead regardless though correct?

 

[Orion*]

Orion, unless Norfair is better than Brinstar or RC for MK, it still doesn't matter in the long run for him. (Excluding Finals rounds, however)

Also, would you mind elaborating on what makes MK particularly hard to approach on Norfair vs. any other stage?

its very matchup specific to be quite honest on that stage moreso than like brinstar or RC,

I don't really know which stage mk does better on, it depends on like the mu i guess. do you honestly need me to make a chart to figure out why he is hard to approach though lol? like mk is generally hard to approach
add 4 more ledges, a bottom platform with a wall of uairs and extra juggle opportunities, and great dair camping platforms and its pretty straight forward.

out of top tiers norfair is definitely better against wario though imo

 

[Tesh]

its humanly possible to not play brawl or ban dashing, dtilts, dairs, jabs, stale smashes, and random specials. Pretty sure fully charged smashes only on symmetrical custom stages would be non random.

ps :wolf would be top tier because his fsmash is a good alternative to dashing. But it may be banned because first hit can trip people.

 

[Alphicans]

Vertical approaches vs MK are now possible. Some characters gain a lot from being able to attack his underside. Dair camping isn't fantastic vs everyone. Also, MK has less of a grounded game, and his grounded game wrecks a lot of characters more than his air game.

You're right, it is match-up specific, but this stage is actually a good CP for some characters vs MK. The same cannot be said about brinstar.

 

[Ripple]

their still dead regardless though correct?

not all the time. lucas has a much longer recovery so if he uses up-b close to the stage on the right side and the opponent is on the ledge, while they are getting up lucas will bounce very far back off stage and die, but if he crashes on the left he has a chance of grabbing the ledge because he's right there at the ledge.

same for ness but it rarely happens because his recovery is much shorter

 

[BSP]

So if we've already got specific MK rules on other things, why not extend it to stages?

 

[Tesh]

Why do people think a diverse stagelist or start list makes MK broken? Might I remind people of the MLG circuit? Very diverse stagelist, 9 stage starter list. Sonic, ZSS, Ness, Ike placing in top 10? Toon links, Olimars and other junk in top 16?

Because MK is soooooooooooo broken with norfair legal and the possibility of Delfino game 1.

 

[John12346]

Stop using "MK didn't do well at MLG" as an argument. I calculated that **** already and he took 32 of the 80 available top 16 spots for the five MLG circuits(A percentage of 40%!). You know who came in second overall? Snake, who only took 10 of the available 80 top 16 spots(12.5%), followed by Diddy, who only took 7 of the available 80 top 16 spots(8.75%).

MK performed exceptionally at MLG. Stop saying he didn't.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

if every1 seconds pit to counter MK at norfair then he is always the one who has to approach

no but pit can out circle camp mk on this stage so as a pit main i am forced to advocate it's legality and force all of you to take up pit as a secondary to counter MK since norfair makes this possible

edit: i don't mean counter like it's all of a sudden pit has the advantage on MK at norfair, but he sure does better than any1 else does here against MK that's for sure. as the saying goes, "time you out son"

inb4some1saysimwrongandactssalty

 

[fkacyan]

Why do people think a diverse stagelist or start list makes MK broken? Might I remind people of the MLG circuit? Very diverse stagelist, 9 stage starter list. Sonic, ZSS, Ness, Ike placing in top 10? Toon links, Olimars and other junk in top 16?

Because MK is soooooooooooo broken with norfair legal and the possibility of Delfino game 1.

I wish people stopped referring to characters. In the top 8 (and maybe even top 24 at certsain tourneys) its all about the players, if any of those people had invested time in another character they'd do just as well.

Also, "banning randomness as much as humanly possible" = Ceasing to play the game because there's some randomness we can't eliminate wihtout coding changes.

That people still thinkgg YI: Brawl is legal quality, let alone a starter, baffles me.

 

[Alphicans]

Saying YI:Brawl should be banned is a bit of stretch imo. It being a starter in a 5 starter list is meh :/, but that's not because of the randomness factor.

 

[fkacyan]

Saying YI:Brawl should be banned is a bit of stretch imo. It being a starter in a 5 starter list is meh :/, but that's not because of the randomness factor.

I could pose a cogent argument as to why the ghosts are as bad if not worse than Pictochat altogether if I so chose to, but nobody would read or act on it anyways, removing the stage from the list, hell, even from starters, is too much of a new thing for most people.

 

[Ripple]

YI:B should be a starter even in a 5 list. the ghosts aren't random, the platform tilting is though. which has little to no affect on gameplay whatsoever.

 

[fkacyan]

the ghosts aren't random,

***** what

Qualify this with data.

 

[Alphicans]

Yes, I would very much like to see this.

Thio, there has been plenty of debate about YI:Brawl and pictochat lol.

 

[fkacyan]

Yes, I would very much like to see this.

Thio, there has been plenty of debate about YI:Brawl and pictochat lol.

And yet the legality of both stages is still questionable, because evidently people are still stupid.

 

[Ripple]

Spoiler

Support Ghost Times: Run 1
10 minute timer

Split 1: 00:09:49 (748)
Split 2: 00:09:39 (317)
Split 3: 00:09:26 (750)
Split 4: 00:09:17 (49)
Split 5: 00:09:08 (183)
Split 6: 00:08:59 (448)
Split 7: 00:08:49 (883)
Split 8: 00:08:41 (15)
Split 9: 00:08:26 (115)
Split 10: 00:08:13 (517)
Split 11: 00:08:02 (516)
Split 12: 00:07:52 (383)
Split 13: 00:07:39 (449)
Split 14: 00:07:28 (682)
Split 15: 00:07:16 (482)
Split 16: 00:07:04 (250)
Split 17: 00:06:49 (982)
Split 18: 00:06:38 (916)
Split 19: 00:06:27 (482)
Split 20: 00:06:15 (383)
Split 21: 00:06:07 (83)
Split 22: 00:05:55 (217)
Split 23: 00:05:44 (615)
Split 24: 00:05:33 (417)
Split 25: 00:05:24 (281)
Split 26: 00:05:10 (148)
Split 27: 00:04:57 (915)
Split 28: 00:04:46 (448)
Split 29: 00:04:35 (849)
Split 30: 00:04:24 (581)
Split 31: 00:04:09 (581)
Split 32: 00:03:57 (683)
Split 33: 00:03:43 (550)
Split 34: 00:03:32 (615)
Split 35: 00:03:20 (915)
Split 36: 00:03:07 (715)
Split 37: 00:02:53 (583)
Split 38: 00:02:41 (981)
Split 39: 00:02:31 (649)
Split 40: 00:02:19 (548)
Split 41: 00:02:07 (616)
Split 42: 00:01:56 (816)
Split 43: 00:01:43 (683)
Split 44: 00:01:32 (450)
Split 45: 00:01:21 (50)
Split 46: 00:01:12 (83)
Split 47: 00:01:01 (517)
Split 48: 00:00:53 (82)
Split 49: 00:00:39 (83)
Split 50: 00:00:30 (317)
Split 51: 00:00:18 (750)
Split 52: 00:00:07 (916)

Conclusion: The range is usually from 10 seconds to 14 seconds. You could probably just assume that every 12 seconds or so, the support ghost will appear. However, you would have to note that the times can go offset by two seconds on either side.

.

there you go

edit: he did mention the the ghosts COULD BE random on which side they pop up on, but in my experience it just alternates

 

[fkacyan]

there you go

Inconclusive data that shows thiere is still heavy variance. What about the distribution of which side it appears on?

Any data on shyguys, btw? Hitbox extenders are god-tier in this game, it's one of the main reasons Brinstar is so good for many charcater (in addition to the small hitzones)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Stop using "MK didn't do well at MLG" as an argument. I calculated that **** already and he took 32 of the 80 available top 16 spots for the five MLG circuits(A percentage of 40%!). You know who came in second overall? Snake, who only took 10 of the available 80 top 16 spots(12.5%), followed by Diddy, who only took 7 of the available 80 top 16 spots(8.75%).

MK performed exceptionally at MLG. Stop saying he didn't.

Comparing to most other nationals he didn't perform AS well, even with the supposedly broken stage list for him. Hell, even if it is the same, the stage list had nothing to do with it since it is THE SAME as with a more conservative stage list, still proving that GG and Norfair aren't broken for MK. They aren't broken for anybody.

 

[fkacyan]

i wish people stopped referring to characters. In the top 8 (and maybe even top 24 at certsain tourneys) its all about the players, if any of those people had invested time in another character they'd do just as well.

8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8|

 

[Tesh]

Okay guys, show me a national with a strict stagelist that "nerfs" mk with 3 or 5 stage list striking that had more diverse results than the MLG series.

 

[John12346]

The only thing a 9 starter stagelist does is make more characters more viable. I don't want to repeat myself, but MK took 32 out of the available 80 top 16 spots, which is a percentage of 40%, while no other character even had more than 10 of those top 16 spots.

Despite the fact that a lot of different characters placed well at MLG, MK still ***** the living **** out of the circuit.

I would, however, like to point out... the fact that we DID have more diverse results is a good thing for the balance of the game as a whole, even if it doesn't solve the MK issue.