![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I know, i'm just spelling it out for people using the vaguness and the lack of specifics.
I like higher stage starter systems honestly
I like higher stage starter systems honestly
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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion
- Thread starter Unity Ruleset Committee
- Start date
John12346
Smash Master
Yeah, I think we've agreed that 9 starter doesn't make MK any better or worse, but it does help increase diversity and viability among the rest of the cast.
For the last time:
Stop treating players and characters as separate entities. You can only talk about MK's performance as a character if the following things are true:
- Every character's main is equally represented in both skill and number
- Everybody always counterpicks the best stage for their character every time they get to CP
Neither of these things are ever the case. I don't know why people still talk about any tourney as if it can represent how good or bad a character is. Far too much stage and character choice is based on player preference rather than the optimal theory.
EDIT: @ ESAM: GG/Norfair are definitely in his top 3 CPs for certain MUs, and in a 2-ban system he's never gonna get Brinstar (Which isnt his best CP for all matchups) and RC (Same as Brinstar).
People don't CP GGs and Norfair with him because they're not comfortable or experienced on those stages. Most players do not play for optimal theory.
Stop treating players and characters as separate entities. You can only talk about MK's performance as a character if the following things are true:
- Every character's main is equally represented in both skill and number
- Everybody always counterpicks the best stage for their character every time they get to CP
Neither of these things are ever the case. I don't know why people still talk about any tourney as if it can represent how good or bad a character is. Far too much stage and character choice is based on player preference rather than the optimal theory.
EDIT: @ ESAM: GG/Norfair are definitely in his top 3 CPs for certain MUs, and in a 2-ban system he's never gonna get Brinstar (Which isnt his best CP for all matchups) and RC (Same as Brinstar).
People don't CP GGs and Norfair with him because they're not comfortable or experienced on those stages. Most players do not play for optimal theory.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
I love it when people point to statistics saying "40ish% of top 16 places were MK".
Last I checked, MK is mained by more players than any other character in the game.
Thus, logically, he should have more representation in the top 16.
Also, why aren't they experienced on those stages, Theo? Is it, perhaps, because they don't play on those stages? Maybe, just maybe, you could learn to play on those stages.
And outside of Pit (definitely) and maybe Bowser, I really don't see many people CPing MK to Norfair.
Seriously, get better. If you're having trouble on a stage, spend an hour or two playing solely on that stage. It's how I learned Rainbow Cruise and Pirate Ship.
Last I checked, MK is mained by more players than any other character in the game.
Thus, logically, he should have more representation in the top 16.
Also, why aren't they experienced on those stages, Theo? Is it, perhaps, because they don't play on those stages? Maybe, just maybe, you could learn to play on those stages.
And outside of Pit (definitely) and maybe Bowser, I really don't see many people CPing MK to Norfair.
Seriously, get better. If you're having trouble on a stage, spend an hour or two playing solely on that stage. It's how I learned Rainbow Cruise and Pirate Ship.
John12346
Smash Master
Dirt, that's not a good argument(the first three lines)
If 20% of the community used Mario(that's the percentage of the community currently using MK) at MLG, and MK suddenly received w/e %age of usage Mario currently has in 2011 for MLG, would you seriously expect Mario to get anywhere near the placings MK got at MLG?
If MK wasn't a good character, he wouldn't have placed so high that many times, regardless of representation.
If 20% of the community used Mario(that's the percentage of the community currently using MK) at MLG, and MK suddenly received w/e %age of usage Mario currently has in 2011 for MLG, would you seriously expect Mario to get anywhere near the placings MK got at MLG?
If MK wasn't a good character, he wouldn't have placed so high that many times, regardless of representation.
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
my best guess would be the small blastzones?
edit: even then it's MU dependent
edit: even then it's MU dependent
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
@John Yes.
If Mario's metagame were as advanced as MKs, then I would honestly answer yes. However, more players means a more advanced metagame, the anomaly of course being Diddy Kong, who has the most advanced metagame at present, followed by Metaknight. Characters with severe underrepresentation will have less advanced metagames as a result.
If Mario's metagame were as advanced as MKs, then I would honestly answer yes. However, more players means a more advanced metagame, the anomaly of course being Diddy Kong, who has the most advanced metagame at present, followed by Metaknight. Characters with severe underrepresentation will have less advanced metagames as a result.
Which greatly hinders his gimping ability/makes his recovery pretty meaningless?
Though I guess shuttle loop would be buffed....
John12346
Smash Master
Okay, so no other character has their metagames developed to their peak, considering that we've both discussed the game and its characters down to the most minute details, coupled with the fact that we've been able to determine hitbox sizes, durations, trajectories, frame advantages, etc through hacking and PSA?
How are you gonna convince anyone of that?
May I point you over to the Character Boards? Or are you gonna tell me they've been slacking?
Character ability is going to shine through representation. Seriously.
How are you gonna convince anyone of that?
May I point you over to the Character Boards? Or are you gonna tell me they've been slacking?
Character ability is going to shine through representation. Seriously.
Generally speaking, most boards are more interested in character or situation-specific gimmicks rather than general understanding of the way their character functions.
John12346
Smash Master
Isn't that what the "How to play (character)," "Matchup," and "Q&A" threads inherent in each character-specific board are for, though?
I seriously can't really see any character below MK placing as well as him if the character was given the same amount of popularity as him.
I seriously can't really see any character below MK placing as well as him if the character was given the same amount of popularity as him.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
dat utsuho :O
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Pretty much past basic understanding of the game there isnt much to learn from them so yeah lol
its all very 2 dimensional
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
It's good for MK because it's good for anyone who has the lead, and MK is pretty good at getting this.
Otherwise, yeah it sucks for him
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
MK isn't good at getting the lead, lol. He's good at maintaining a lead, but he is only slightly above average at getting it in the first place.
John12346
Smash Master
But what about his ground game mixups between tilts and grabs? Tornado? dsfsgfdgh
Although I will admit that MK can have a bit of trouble getting the percent lead back, because of his semi-low damaging moves, but he definitely doesn't have trouble getting the first few hits in for an early lead.
Although, a lot of this is compensated by those low percent kills and gimps. ASL probably kills at 0% by the ledge on GGs >.<;
Although I will admit that MK can have a bit of trouble getting the percent lead back, because of his semi-low damaging moves, but he definitely doesn't have trouble getting the first few hits in for an early lead.
Although, a lot of this is compensated by those low percent kills and gimps. ASL probably kills at 0% by the ledge on GGs >.<;
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Snake: Versatile projectile (grenades), fast long-range, strong tilts.
Diddy Kong: Versatile projectile (bananas).
Falco: Spammable projectile (lasers).
These are 3 top tier characters that are better at getting the lead than MK is.
Diddy Kong: Versatile projectile (bananas).
Falco: Spammable projectile (lasers).
These are 3 top tier characters that are better at getting the lead than MK is.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
John12346
Smash Master
On an uneven, platformed stage like GGs?
Also all of those things are defeated on a starter stage by planking/air camping/standing on a platform.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Who cares about starter stages? I thought we were talking about GG here...
John12346
Smash Master
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Yes, especially on a stage like GG.
John12346
Smash Master
If MK's standing on one of the side platforms, Diddy can't get in close for banana combos, Snake has really bad issues shield-cancelling grenades directly above MK, and Falco's lasers won't even hit, unless he's standing on the other side of the stage.
Plus, the blocks WILL get in the way of a lot of different types of spam.
And approaching MK from above is hell
Plus, the blocks WILL get in the way of a lot of different types of spam.
And approaching MK from above is hell
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You aren't supposed to approach, lol, you're supposed to rain **** down on him.
And you know the blocks are really easy to destroy, right?
And you know the blocks are really easy to destroy, right?
John12346
Smash Master
Falco can't rain lasers downwards(although how cool would it be if he could?).
Diddy's bananas will net 4% per hit. He can't continue approaching on the offchance the banana misses or gets shielded.
Snake, admittedly, has ways to pressure MK via C4 and Grenades, but that's what scroooooging is for...
Diddy's bananas will net 4% per hit. He can't continue approaching on the offchance the banana misses or gets shielded.
Snake, admittedly, has ways to pressure MK via C4 and Grenades, but that's what scroooooging is for...
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Meh, not getting into a theorycraft debate. We are both right depending on who's point of view you look at it from, cool?
John12346
Smash Master
Indeed, I was about to say that >.<;
We should go back to talking about how awesome the 9-starter stagelist is and why the BBRRC hasn't picked up on it yet.
We should go back to talking about how awesome the 9-starter stagelist is and why the BBRRC hasn't picked up on it yet.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Falco in optimal play will probably get a lead first because MK doesnt want to get CGed. However past that, on a stage like GGs I don't really feel like falco is optimally suited to fight mk there. He gains a lot more from the blocks, and gets more damage per hit based on followups past CG percents, and on that stage falco will have to actually interact a lot more than lets say FD.
Diddy cant just throw bananas, this isnt 2008. if you throw a banana at me i will either, A. airdodge throw it away, B catch it with an air, or C powershield it. Then guess what... Its mine LOOOL
Yes I do realize the advantages diddy has anyway, or the fact that he has the initial control but youre acting like its a mindless projectile, which only works at mid level play at best :<
Diddy can kinda mindless shoot peanuts because its shield cancel ability but on GGs I dont see it doing that much in comparison to any other stage, in fact because of the blocks- less.
Snake sucks
No because I actually play the game, LOOOOL
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Top 20 in Australia, not trying to boast at all (that's hardly boasting and you'd probably destroy me), but I definitely play the game.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Your point of view seems to be inferior because your understanding of the game is suboptimal.
Cool?
You can say different perspectives are equally justified because both have a legitimate reasoning. Your reasoning is objectively flawed, hence that argument doesn't make a lot of sense.
Cool?
You can say different perspectives are equally justified because both have a legitimate reasoning. Your reasoning is objectively flawed, hence that argument doesn't make a lot of sense.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
how do you have two characters next to your name wtf!???
then how come when i read your theory craft it never looks optimal >.>
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
they added a melee char post bit thing check the about me section in your profile son.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
U so late to the party
My dude Orion late as hell.
If you want you can have double ICs, that would actually make a lot of sense.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
ummmmm....... gotta say something here. i main pit. in america, pit is currently near the top of c-tier. he has little to no representation, yet the character as a whole is acknowledged as 2 things, under developed/studied, and we directly correlate it to him being UNDER USED here in the america. now look at japan, this character has been studied, has a lot of representation, and is currently FOURTH on their tier list.
so tell me again how knowledge of the character and popularity/use is not in any way connected again man. you can't possibly say that a metagame is based on a flawed "HOW TO PLAY" guide of people with little representation and top level players. because it is incredibly dumb not to think that representation and metagame are not correlated. you think that frame data, hitboxes, and trajectory etc are what makes a character's metagame? you are wrong. it is how all of that listed stuff is APPLIED IN GAME TO IT'S MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. in fact, ill admit that our character's boards are currently working our ***** off trying to advance pit's metagame but due to the LACK OF PLAYERS (high calibur or not) we are struggling with testing and tourney application and such.
for example, right now we currently have TWO, high level solo (for the most part) pit mains in the US. we have esca, who doesn't actually own brawl, but is so good that when he goes to tourneys he places top 20 with pit no matter what (referance whobo3, and the HOBOs he can attend.) he got second seed in ally's pool btw, only next to ally himself. and in doubles esca is king, look him up with illmatic.
the other top level solo pit main, is koolaid. koolaid just dropped MK recently to achieve his goal of keeping the title of best pit main, and because he found mk to be boring whereas he can actually feel and enjoy using pit. now, koolaid has not used pit in tourney for MONTHS (nearly a year), and just took third with pit at a tourney on saturday.
there you have it, ALL of the top level pit mains (im excluding japan but those guys are so legit). me and the other pits are trying to catch up, but with so little representation, and just those two able to ACTUALLY GO TO TOURNIES let alone PLACE WELL, you can see how our metagame lacks in comparison to diddy kong, metaknight, snake, and ICs.
now on the topic of GGs: (that's right, this post keeps going)
stop talking as if snake, diddy, and flack-oh are the only guys who can be used as an example to fight MK at this stage. pit's got arrow control, i can hit any1 on any part of any stage, with as many arrows as i need to force the approac. DDD could infinite MK here (not too sure but this is not the point). olimar can camp the sides hard on MK and get earlier kills on him. hell luigi is even viable(ish) here as he can get kills on MK at like 60% here.
@any1 *****ing that no1 has experiance at this stage, you suck balls if you can't take the initiative to look in advance what stages are legal that you don't know and practice on them. THAT'S WHY I LEARNED TO PLAY ON THIS STAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. and after that i went to the tourney, and while im not gonna lie i only got like 13/20 (and this was back in norcal mind you), it was because i knew how to play the people who CP'd it not expecting people to know how to abuse it with their character. (gotta say as a sidenote, pit+GGs=very happy maha)
so there you go peeps, i don't really care if you try and say im not as good as you are or watevs, money match me if you think im bad as opposed to not being able to attend many tournies.
10get@me*****es
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
DDD can't infinite MK here. MK hits the ground before the regrab an happen... Unless I'm missing something.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
sure, pick the only thing that i even said im not sure about to critisize. SoUndS GHUud 2 mIe m@n
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I actually agree with most of your post.
John12346
Smash Master
Alright, here's a nice counter-argument...
First, this chart. Read it. It compares (percentage of money won/popularity) vs. tier placement. That spike that goes above even MK are the Ice Climbers, which are horribly skewed by Ally's results, but ignore that for now.
X axis is tier placement.
Y axis is (average percentage of money won - the final column of my chart in Ripple's thread/number of times the character has been used in tournament).
In your scenario, if popularity was the only deciding factor on how much money a character is capable of winning, this chart should be showing more of a straight line. But as you can clearly see, it has a negative correlation, decreasing as you go further and further down the tier list.
That good enough for you?