The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Ghostbone]

edgeguarding: high risk, high reward

ledge pressure: low risk, medium/high reward

think about it

I'm not seeing it.

Ledge pressure is more or less edgeguarding from on-stage, jumping off stage to edgeguard generally isn't high risk either. (unless you're trying to fight MK offstage but that's just a terrible idea)

 

[fkacyan]

I'm not seeing it.

Ledge pressure is more or less edgeguarding from on-stage, jumping off stage to edgeguard generally isn't high risk either. (unless you're trying to fight MK offstage but that's just a terrible idea)

Have you ever actually played Smash Brothers games

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah...I was about to wonder.

(for an actual answer and not just lol ur ********) going offstage is the ultimate risk. You are closer to the blastzone so you can hit your opponent there easier (Killing them) or hit them out of their jump. However...the same thing can be done to you. Some characters are obviously better, but it is always a risk for every character, including MK (His ****ty meteor recovery is proof).

On stage is much safer as you can eliminate ledge options by attacking or using a projectile, while giving yourself little lag to punish other get-up options. I like it :3

But yeah, you guys argue about things almost in the ruleset. People asked questions and then basically theory-crafted each other to death. If you have any questions that haven't been addressed, please ask so I can address them

Hell, do it on my aim so I don't have to have the clutter of multiple questions while I'm responding to an answer

Ercyman

 

[MK26]

all i see is they editted out the statement about actually responding to concerns.

bahahahaha

 

[sunshade]

Where are the fundamentals of brawl written in stone?

What is a fundamental to one person may not be a fundamental to another. Pierced made a gigantic article a while ago talking about the metagame and he said something along the lines of "everything is based on/revolving around the sliding shield approach"(It has been a long time since reading that post, so forgive me if I summarized that poorly). Did that gigantic post provide unquestionable proof that the sliding sheild was the fundamental aspect of gameplay in brawl? No, it was simply his educated opinion on the matter.

Saying that on stage gameplay is closer to the fundamentals than ledge play is literally nothing other than you saying "I think on stage gameplay is more skillful and I enjoy it more than ledgeplay". Claiming something to be more inline with the fundamentals is an argument entirly to opinion and does nothing to justify the banning and belittling of an entirely legitimate and often optimal method of play.

 

[Orion*]

Where are the fundamentals of brawl written in stone?

What is a fundamental to one person may not be a fundamental to another. Pierced made a gigantic article a while ago talking about the metagame and he said something along the lines of "everything is based on/revolving around the sliding shield approach"(It has been a long time since reading that post, so forgive me if I summarized that poorly). Did that gigantic post provide unquestionable proof that the sliding sheild was the fundamental aspect of gameplay in brawl? No, it was simply his educated opinion on the matter.

Saying that on stage gameplay is closer to the fundamentals than ledge play is literally nothing other than you saying "I think on stage gameplay is more skillful and I enjoy it more than ledgeplay". Claiming something to be more inline with the fundamentals is an argument entirly to opinion and does nothing to justify the banning and belittling of an entirely legitimate and often optimal method of play.

I don't think you read the post at all.... ROFLMAO like seriously

But either way, to respond to your first question/paragraph. They arent, and nothing is- nobody said that (anything being set in stone), so I don't see why you bother writing that. In fact it's quite contradicting to the underlying message of what I was saying.

You're second paragraph just tells me that you didn't interpret what I was saying at all.
Although for the record despite it being completely unrelated, my favorite aspect of smash as a series is actually offstage gameplay- and getting a gimp is the most satisfying/skillful feeling for me in the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No wonder you play MK and Marth.

~

And yeah nothing it truly written in stone for smash, I guess we did make the competitive game play ourselves after all.

 

[Orion*]

No wonder you play MK and Marth.

If you don't enjoy the game I truly believe you limit yourself as far as playing it

BTW, na I mained falco before I mained MK actually, and while I reallllly love falco as a character and I also enjoy playing him, it felt to much like work in a tournament setting- and not just fun lol

edit:

Thio should say how many times I tried to gimp him with random *** characters out of greed, I think the image of me screaming "DIDDAY SPIEEEKE!!!!!" at the top of my lungs is burned in his head

 

[Lord Chair]

Going offstage is rarely risky as in risking your stock.

Best thing your opponent can do is hit you back onstage.

Oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I'm onstage again.

Ledgeguarding is only superior if edgeguarding means you're definitely giving up ledgeguarding.

kk

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Or you get stagespiked by MK.

Or MK shuttle loops, hits you with the second hit, and then gimps you.

Or he just DAirs.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i wish ganon had shuttle loop

 

[Orion*]

Going offstage is rarely risky as in risking your stock.

Best thing your opponent can do is hit you back onstage.

Oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I'm onstage again.

Ledgeguarding is only superior if edgeguarding means you're definitely giving up ledgeguarding.

kk

This depends on characters and even more importantly percents imo,

Ex, going to edgegaurd MK if youre at high percents isnt that bad in some matchups, yes he can hit you back on stage or to tech, however at low percents he can get a uair->to **** combo.

Some characters like snake though need to just get ***** lol

Also, at high percent if you do get hit, then you really are giving up ledge guarding. Other times you just overextend and then the op can switch positions with you and now youre being ledge guarded roflmao

i wish ganon had shuttle loop

I lol'd xD

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

okay i have a serious question and if the bbr-rc doesn't address it then they are leaving a hole in their ruleset.

so they have the modified set procedure for doubles listed, but they didn't list it for singles. i think that set procedure is a pretty important part of the ruleset wouldn't you guys agree? (i will be pming this to you alphazelot if i don't get a response by the end of this page)

here is my question, when someone loses a match, does the winner have to switch characters before the loser declares the stage they will be playing on? and if they don't then how is that fair to people who would normally CP a stage like RC or Brinstar that aren't MK, like pit for example? those stages are legit CPs for him unless they are allowed to switch to a pocket MK which is BS (if they have to switch before the stage is declared then ignore question 2).

 

[Raziek]

okay i have a serious question and if the bbr-rc doesn't address it then they are leaving a hole in their ruleset.

so they have the modified set procedure for doubles listed, but they didn't list it for singles. i think that set procedure is a pretty important part of the ruleset wouldn't you guys agree? (i will be pming this to you alphazelot if i don't get a response by the end of this page)

here is my question, when someone loses a match, does the winner have to switch characters before the loser declares the stage they will be playing on? and if they don't then how is that fair to people who would normally CP a stage like RC or Brinstar that aren't MK, like pit for example? those stages are legit CPs for him unless they are allowed to switch to a pocket MK which is BS (if they have to switch before the stage is declared then ignore question 2).

Traditionally, stage is chosen before the winner switches. Otherwise the other player is counterpicked by both character and stage.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

but doesn't that take away the essence of it being a counter pick? if you cp a stage and then they just counter pick your character to fit that stage then it isn't even really a counter pick. it's just screwing yourself more because you didn't know they had a pocket this or that and now instead of you having the advantage on the second round, they do which, like i said, makes it not even a counter pick. that's kinda lame tbh. i mean it's not they aren't gonna have their own CP the next round anyways so why give the winner the ability to CP on round 2? that's my opinion at least. i mean that's like CP ICs as pit to RC or brinstar just to find out they have a pocket MK, or picking YI to counter their wario just to find out they are switching to marth. maybe it's just me but i think that makes CP-ing kinda useless if they can switch characters after* the stage is chosen.

edit:
*

 

[John12346]

Double blind counterpick process, anyone?

Loser's character is announced
Then loser's stage and winner's character are announced at the same time

Just a random thought that came up. Don't put too much stock into it, because it sounds really annoying to do in actual tournament play.

 

[BSP]

MK can't get CP'd, so just have him ready, and no worries.

I've got it/finally figured it out

Main ICs. Second MK. You're fullproof.

 

[Raziek]

but doesn't that take away the essence of it being a counter pick? if you cp a stage and then they just counter pick your character to fit that stage then it isn't even really a counter pick. it's just screwing yourself more because you didn't know they had a pocket this or that and now instead of you having the advantage on the second round, they do which, like i said, makes it not even a counter pick. that's kinda lame tbh. i mean it's not they aren't gonna have their own CP the next round anyways so why give the winner the ability to CP on round 2? that's my opinion at least. i mean that's like CP ICs as pit to RC or brinstar just to find out they have a pocket MK, or picking YI to counter their wario just to find out they are switching to marth. maybe it's just me but i think that makes CP-ing kinda useless if they can switch characters after* the stage is chosen.

edit:
*

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

If you play multiple characters, you have earned the advantage known as "universal stage coverage".

 

[C.J.]

@John, I would prefer the reverse.
Loser's stage is chosen, then the characters are announced simultaneously.

CPing a stage is important, sure, but, do you really wanna let the winner CP his character to beat the loser's chosen character?

 

[Raziek]

If you announce the stage, it's extremely easy to guess who the loser is going to use.

That's also just going to result in more MK.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

If you play multiple characters, you have earned the advantage known as "universal stage coverage".

while i agree that this is a true statement, you gotta admit the fact that they get to chose their character afterwords takes away from it being a counter pick. i mean ya then the loser gets to pick their character but then that takes away the whole point of them CPing that stage unless they planned on the opponent switching and set it up so that they would switch to their second on the stage they chose, but honestly how do account for seconds besides just always going MK? takes away from diversity imo.

of course like i said that's just my opinion.

 

[Raziek]

Well, we've got several options for the order.

Stage, Winner, Loser (Currently used)
Stage, Loser, Winner
Winner, Loser, Stage
Winner, Stage, Loser
Loser, Stage, Winner
Loser, Winner, Stage

Of those only one is viable.

#2 isn't an option because the winner can character CP the loser.
#3 & 4 are no good because they give the loser a DOUBLE CP.
#5 & 6 have the same problem of letting the winner CP the loser.

If you bring double-blinds into the picture, things can change somewhat.

Picking the stage first then double-blinding basically makes it useless as a CP, since the stage CP is negated by seeing it, and the character CP is gone.

Double blinding characters THEN doing the stage could be worth considering, my only concern is that MK is still broken in that case. People would pick MK no matter what, since if the loser goes MK & the winner DOESN'T, they give em the ****.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i don't see what's wrong with a double CP.

but i like adding blinds too.

oh well, i guess the system is just gonna force everyone to have pocket MKs in order to not get CPd on their own CP just like always. but whatevs i guess, it's not like any1 else thinks that we should be forced to stay with the character we start with on a blind pick. even though i think it's fair, i know people whose character's have hard cp character's wouldn't find it fair. screw it it's brawl ill just except what ever and go have fun at a tourney even if some of the rules irk me a bit.

 

[Raziek]

The problem with a double CP is you essentially negate the point of having counterpicks, since they become virtually impossible to lose.

The point of a counterpick is to see if a clear victor can be determined by one of the opponents besting the other on favorable territory.

If you can beat your opponent on a starter (relatively even ground), and either their or your CP, you're declared the winner. If it gets to the point that you can't lose your CP, then only Game 1 matters.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think Raziek basically answered it for me...

 

[fkacyan]

The problem with a double CP is you essentially negate the point of having counterpicks, since they become virtually impossible to lose.

The point of a counterpick is to see if a clear victor can be determined by one of the opponents besting the other on favorable territory.

If you can beat your opponent on a starter (relatively even ground), and either their or your CP, you're declared the winner. If it gets to the point that you can't lose your CP, then only Game 1 matters.

Game 1 still has far too much weight.

Double-blind on each pick is superior IMO.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

yes, yes he did. thx for the summary. never really thought about the whole CP process like that, i just thought it was supposed to make it your advantage round 2. makes way more sense from that perspective tho

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Double-blind on each pick gets rid of most of the legal stages, Thio.

 

[fkacyan]

Double-blind on each pick gets rid of most of the legal stages, Thio.

How so?

All that means is you don't know what character the other person is playing. You can still make a logical guess, and despite that I know you're gonna say LOLPOCKETMK if you're not complete trash somebody's pocket MK won't be beating you on any stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh wait, didn't read what you were saying properly. Nevermind.

 

[Tesh]

Double blind counterpicking sounds like it would be....MK tbh.

Imagine I lose game 1, then I CP Delfino Plaza.
Now what? My opponent could go DDD or MK, but I don't know which. If he goes DDD, my Snake, Diddy, Marth etc. are all at major risk. If he goes MK, my Falco (seriously what is he going to do about sharking) or other non CGables still wind up on a good MK stage.

The way it works now, you get to pick a stage you want and then you get to see our opponent's character. You still have a chance to CP your own character change to gain an advantage.

This adds the MK layer of CPing to competitive play. From personal experience, my 2 best stages to CP people to with Sonic are Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise. But, its kind of counterproductive to go there if my opponent has a pocket MK. So, I am challenged again to find a CP that will help my character regardless of my opponent's strengths.

The MK layer of CPing encourages people to CP towards their character's strong points, not their opponent's weak points.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I've got it/finally figured it out

Main ICs. Second MK. You're fullproof.

I'm just foolproof!?!??!

(it's better the other way around IMO)

 

[Orion*]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

If you play multiple characters, you have earned the advantage known as "universal stage coverage".

Cool. But you have to worry about the matchups also

Double blind counterpicking sounds like it would be....MK tbh.

Imagine I lose game 1, then I CP Delfino Plaza.
Now what? My opponent could go DDD or MK, but I don't know which. If he goes DDD, my Snake, Diddy, Marth etc. are all at major risk. If he goes MK, my Falco (seriously what is he going to do about sharking) or other non CGables still wind up on a good MK stage.

I don't see why he wouldnt go MK without the double blind in that situation.... >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

I hardly think a double blind encourages people to go MK.

Wouldn't someone be more likely to go MK if their opponent can character counter-pick them rather than if their opponent doesn't know exactly who the character they're choosing is?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Why run the risk of being CPed at all? Ever?

Yeah, MK absolutely gets better on constant double blind.

Spoiler

or when you do anything because he's MK lol

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

actually he gets worse because he'd constantly be against his worst match up..... HIMSELF

 

[Orion*]

I hardly think a double blind encourages people to go MK.

Wouldn't someone be more likely to go MK if their opponent can character counter-pick them rather than if their opponent doesn't know exactly who the character they're choosing is?

Thats what I would think but it seems stage dependent as well

 

[fkacyan]

Double blind counterpicking sounds like it would be....MK tbh.

Imagine I lose game 1, then I CP Delfino Plaza.
Now what? My opponent could go DDD or MK, but I don't know which. If he goes DDD, my Snake, Diddy, Marth etc. are all at major risk. If he goes MK, my Falco (seriously what is he going to do about sharking) or other non CGables still wind up on a good MK stage.

The way it works now, you get to pick a stage you want and then you get to see our opponent's character. You still have a chance to CP your own character change to gain an advantage.

This adds the MK layer of CPing to competitive play. From personal experience, my 2 best stages to CP people to with Sonic are Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise. But, its kind of counterproductive to go there if my opponent has a pocket MK. So, I am challenged again to find a CP that will help my character regardless of my opponent's strengths.

The MK layer of CPing encourages people to CP towards their character's strong points, not their opponent's weak points.

If your character loses to a character somebody barely plays, your character isn't tourney viable anyways.

 

[Tesh]

Pocket characters are barely played?

Anyway as Mystic pointed out, if we all just man up and main MK, the game would be pretty balanced and fair (with a reasonable LGL and IDC banned).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Almost 20% of the Metagame is Meta Knight, We'll get there by the time it's been 5 years since the games release.