The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[WindMajor]

Smashboards Mobile bro.

Will tear this thread apart later.

 

[Sage JoWii]

...So you're a scrub? Like, you don't want to increase game depth because "it's too hard"? We're the competitive community. That's simply not a valid excuse, I'm sorry. While you're at it, please reduce the game to just one matchup, because there are so many different ways to play MK, introducing extra variables like Falco or (god forbid) YOSHI into gameplay would be way, way too hard.

Waaait for ittt. Waaaaaaaiiiiitttt for ittttt.


...



...


Nice ad hominem bro .

Btw, reported.

Edit: Expanding upon levels of depth isn't making a game more competitive. Japan has 3 stages and they're plenty competitive. I play on SV 85% of the time and matches are always competitive. Juss saiyan though for anyone else wanting to link adding stages to being competitive (as if we already weren't).

 

[Gea]

Stages allow for more dynamic play without breaking the game and help avoid character dominance due to only playing on a few stages. Or do you think that Japan's strong characters that are not as prevalent here has nothing to do with their stagelist? Let me be clear by saying that a healthy stage list provides characters who would normally be stuffed a chance to play better because there are more choices for how to play a character. Rainbow cruise is a good example of this and how certain characters may flex their aerial mobility whereas if you only played on SV it would not.

 

[Exdeath]

Stages allow for more dynamic play without breaking the game and help avoid character dominance due to only playing on a few stages. Or do you think that Japan's strong characters that are not as prevalent here has nothing to do with their stagelist? Let me be clear by saying that a healthy stage list provides characters who would normally be stuffed a chance to play better because there are more choices for how to play a character. Rainbow cruise is a good example of this and how certain characters may flex their aerial mobility whereas if you only played on SV it would not.

What characters are only viable because of Rainbow Cruise?

 

[Gea]

I didn't say "only viable because of ____." I said more characters had options, whereas playing on less stages mean certain characters are more prone to dominate, especially if the stages presented are good for CGs because they are mostly static. As long as the stages don't break the game, you're heightening the skill ceiling by adding more and thinning out character based dominance due to stages.

 

[John12346]

...So you're a scrub? Like, you don't want to increase game depth because "it's too hard"? We're the competitive community. That's simply not a valid excuse, I'm sorry. While you're at it, please reduce the game to just one matchup, because there are so many different ways to play MK, introducing extra variables like Falco or (god forbid) YOSHI into gameplay would be way, way too hard.

Waaait for ittt. Waaaaaaaiiiiitttt for ittttt.


...



...


Nice ad hominem bro .

Btw, reported.

Edit: Expanding upon levels of depth isn't making a game more competitive. Japan has 3 stages and they're plenty competitive. I play on SV 85% of the time and matches are always competitive. Juss saiyan though for anyone else wanting to link adding stages to being competitive (as if we already weren't).

Nothing of what BPC said was ad hominem, nor was it reportable.

Ad hominem is basically when someone calls you stupid and uses that as a rationale for discrediting your argument. That didn't happen this time around.

He said "if you want SV as the only legal stage, then you henceforth don't support competitive depth."

 

[Exdeath]

I didn't say "only viable because of ____." I said more characters had options, whereas playing on less stages mean certain characters are more prone to dominate, especially if the stages presented are good for CGs because they are mostly static. As long as the stages don't break the game, you're heightening the skill ceiling by adding more and thinning out character based dominance due to stages.

I phrased my question terribly (what I meant didn't even come across when I re-read it haha). What I meant was what characters aren't "stuffed" when Rainbow Cruise is available as opposed to when it isn't available? When I think about it, what comes to mind is characters that are less used but generally understood to be viable (e.g. Ice Climbers and Olimar). I'm genuinely interested in who you're thinking of (although I hope that you aren't referring to Wario).

Nothing of what BPC said was ad hominem, nor was it reportable.

Ad hominem is basically when someone calls you stupid and uses that as a rationale for discrediting your argument. That didn't happen this time around.

He said "if you want SV as the only legal stage, then you henceforth don't support competitive depth."

He was referring to:

...So you're a scrub?

 

[Sage JoWii]

@Gea- Cool story bro. Larger stage list means....well I'm not sure what it means. I guess you think it's 'better' for competition. I'd like to say though, that w/ this being the only (or at the very least 'one of the few') 'fighter' game where stage plays a large factor (you could say Smash in general but Melee's crowd might beg to differ slightly), you could argue that 'better' would be limiting the stages down to non-interfering stages, per how it is in normal fighting games. The large majority of tournament goers like stages were it's PvP and that's what this Unity Ruleset was aiming to please. Aiming to please the masses.

Edit: Hey Joooohhhnnn, if you need a response, please refer to the post above me. Btw, thank you XDeath for pointing that out for him. He seemed a bit lost in the conversation he was not in.

 

[milesg2g]

Late response, but lol who cares.

No, the problem is that there are TOs who take this as word of God and refuse to think for themselves.

The starter list is the single most impacting thing about this ruleset.

Also why should I calm down? Oh wow, I'm biased against giving Ice Climbers an advantage with a ruleset. Sure this may be influenced by having mained Ganondorf for a year and a half. But we're not giving Ganondorf an advantage with a suicide rule, why the **** are we giving characters who prefer static stages to dynamic ones an advantage? It doesn't matter that you're giving more than 1 characters an advantage, you are still giving characters an advantage.

@the post just above me you better ****ing believe I'm mad about FD being a starter on a ****ing 5 STAGE STARTERLIST. I am decidedly NOT trolling.

TO's don't take this "as a word of God", you're just upset because of the little hesitation they have when it comes to switching the rules. lol. I'm not aware of you or your region, but unless a ruleset changes your regions normal placings you should just be quiet. I could see if changing the ruleset actually caused upsets, and unusual tourney play, but there hasn't even been a tourney with this ruleset yet. And tbh, I don't think it'd matter anyway. Rules only matter when people abuse them. Let me use an example for you.

The EC knows how to abuse stupid rulesets, or rulesets they don't agree with rather. We saw this @ both Whobo 3 and SiiS4 I believe. EC just ****** the **** out of player with gay rulesets, showing you how dumb the rules can be if you don't think lol.

If this doesn't happen on a local basis, meaning the rules being set don't even effect you then just be quiet lol.

As far as starters go FD isn't a bad stage, you don't wanna go there ****ing strike it like wtf? lol. The stage is a neutral in other countries and will remain one in ours. If you're character blows @ the level I advise striking it and not letting it be known that you're not good @ the level so you don't get cp'd lol.

there is almost nothing wrong with FD as starter, People need to go away from this mentality.
If a character is bad on stages like BF/FD/SV than the character is bad.

^^^^^
I'm not saying all characters that suck on FD are bad, but it's a level with no hazards, or platforms. You're not upset cuz your character does bad there, you're simply upset about who you'll have to play there (Diddy or IC's. Other's possibly? lol idk)

miles, the problem with all of those issues is that if we go wrong now (which many believe we are with this ruleset), its going to be even HARDER to change anything. If MLG picks brawl back up and uses this ruleset, it likely won't change. I know this new group claims they can changes things in a heartbeat, but this group is controlled by a small group of people that likely won't listen to the reason of "the little guy".

Seriously Yikarur? How do you figure that?

I understand why people are upset, but if you act like children about it you get no where. If you want the "little guy" to be acknowledged, then simply stop acting little. Grow the hell up and address just what the hell you don't like about it. Instead of just insulting the people who are trying to make the ruleset.

The real, unfortunate and unfair part of this entire ruleset is the fact that you won't be given a sticky if you don't agree. That's messed up because sometimes people want to exp new rules or have their own. Rules their region or state is a custom to. Saying "My way or the highway" is a bit rough and that's unfair. But I understand you're trying to get a grass root ruleset for MLG.

 

[John12346]

I knew that's what you were referring to when you said ad hominem, but that's just an insult, not ad hominem; I thought I'd point it out... >___>;

Anyway, I'm pretty sure slightly-intrusive stages such as Halberd and Yoshi's Island(Brawl) are accepted in the community as competitive because such obstacles either have very little impact on gameplay, or can be dodged with a reasonable amount of skill. Plus, one could argue that adapting to different kinds of stages serves as another measure of skill.

 

[Espy Rose]

It's an insult only if BPC meant it in the derogatory sense.
I'm not gonna vouch for him, but he could've easily have been using Sirlin's definition for it: A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Basically, meaning that JoWii fails to prioritize competitive progress over personal preference.

Just a passing thought, though. I could easily be wrong.

 

[fUddO]

@Dirt, you were definitely getting over-emotional there. It sounds like Tin is ON YOUR SIDE, for the most part.

@Maharba: While FD might be balanced in some cases, for the most part it isn't. I'm sure there are also matchups that are more-or-less even on RC too.

 

[Tagxy]

Dude, if u give a pile of **** to the right person they can make it look like rainbows and butterflies. Its still **** though. Thats what you do. And since the overall public(and people in general) tend to follow the "one who sounds the best" thats why they support you. its not like they know any better. The brawl era is the era of lost common sense
thats why i wil not debate. They lost sight of/never understood the "basics"

Not everyone agrees with bpc -_- just some of the people who have time to sit around and post all day. I doubt the majority of the tournament going community agrees with his opinions.

All right, just for continuancy's sake, here's a list of things that are almost universally considered (logically almost) improvements and that stand a chance of being implemented without people going on strike:
-FD replaced by PS1/CS/DP in the 5-starter stage list
-using a 7-starter (add PS1/CS)
-(Using a 9-starter (add PS1/CS/DP/Halberd)?)
-Removing Pictochat
-Adding Japes
-(Adding Norfair, or Green Greens)

FD removed as a starter? Talk about causing a real strike...and its almost as if stage striking didnt exist . Either way your shooting yourself in the foot with this argument. I think many people would be perfectly fine with a 7-stage starter list.

And rather then removing picto or brinstar, you should be using their existence in the CPs as an argument to add more stages like japes and norfair. I can almost assure you if you have TOs remove stages before you add the ones you want, adding new stages is going to be an even bigger/impossible uphill battle.

You like to boast about how 'smart' your posts are, but when it comes to showcasing your argument in a smart way you present your case sooooo tewwibly.

Regarding a 7-stage starter stagelist, why are we using CS over PS2, Halberd, or DP as the 7th stage? Any 3 of those is better than CS. I like PS2 personally or Halberd after that, really not a fan of CS being among those 7.

 

[T-block]

This post looks weird without a title
A case for the legalization of Pictochat​

The videos being presented do not capture the whole picture

First off, let me begin by refuting all of this video "evidence" being brought to the table. These videos are entertaining, and do indeed show what Pictochat could potentially do, and a compilation can be quite convincing. However, it is important to realize that such a compilation cannot capture the frequency at which these events occur. Click the following links, one after another:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxc-I1cI1aI
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBPWHcZN0M
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-V6mYuOQ4#t=2m30s
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5sJ27yJ5x4#t=5m55s
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk1oT4HzxRQ

If I put in the effort to make a compilation out of these, it would look like a fairly convincing tool in pushing the ban of Yoshi's Island to someone unfamiliar with the stage, wouldn't it? I could probably even make a compilation of people falling through Delfino, and present it as evidence for Delfino's ban. These videos are made to appeal to your emotions - take them with a grain of salt, and do not jump to any conclusions based on them alone.

How random is Pictochat?

I firmly believe that many overestimate the actual influence of randomness on a match. Let's get some stage facts out of the way first:

• While the timing cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy, it can be predicted to within an interval of around three seconds. Generally, a drawing will appear after 6-9 seconds of blank time.
• After a drawing has appeared, it will not appear again for the rest of the match (using 8-minute time)
• It takes 9 minutes to cycle through all 27 drawings. This means that an 8-minute match will see approximately 24 drawings, while a more average 5-minute match will only see 15.

Note that the interval where a drawing could appear is only three seconds. That is not a large window, and practising on Pictochat allows you to develop a definitive feel for when that window is. This is not an unrealistic expectation - it is something that any player can achieve by practising and putting in an effort to becoming familiar with the stage. If a subpar player like me can do it, most of you can. However, I'm not going to pretend that this alone is enough to mitigate the potential effects of this stage.

Moving on, step back for a moment and consider how many factors must align in order for Pictochat to wildly screw someone over. Hazards that kill, such as Plant and Mine Cart, do not kill at unreasonable percents (typically 130%+) - if launched into the Plant at lower percents, the damage is hardly anything to cry about. Furthermore, if randomness is to be blamed, we must be talking about when the Plant first appears, and the one or two seconds afterwards - any later and both you and your opponent have had enough warning. So what has to happen in order for Plant to significanty sway a match? You must be in a certain percentage range - high enough to die, and low enough that the stock wasn't over anyways (dying at 200% to the Plant isn't the worst thing in the world); Your opponent must have you in a comprimising position, able to force you into the newly-formed hazard, and this must occur within a very specific time window - late enough for you to be hit by the hazard, but early enough that the warning was inadequate - if randomness is to be blamed. On top of all that, you must both be in a place on the stage where the hazard could not have been avoided by DI or airdodging. That is a lot of factors that must be present.

Chain grabs will inevitably be brought up as a counter-argument. Yes, characters with chain grabs will indeed have an advantage in this regard, as they have control over their opponent for a longer period of time, and have a higher chance of hitting that window. Those who play characters with chain grabs (Falco, Pikachu, Dedede), or those who regularly play against them may see the "randomness" of this stage more often than most. However, I see no problem with such an advantage. It is along the same lines as taking an Olimar to Frigate Orpheon and hoping that the stage remains on the first side for as long as possible... or Peach going to Yoshi's Island with the hope that the platform will save her as she floats down with her Parasol.

About the effects of drawings that don't do damage, there are three that are brought up regularly: Spikes for forming a ceiling over the edge of the stage, Diagonal Line for taking away the left ledge, and Blowing for forming a solid wall. Again, let's examine how many factors must line up in order for these to significantly affect a match. For Blowing, the face must appear when a character is recovering high from the far right, and must appear within a timing window such that the character recovering cannot react in time to decide to recover low. With Spikes, the victim must be launched into a specific spot at a very specific time. With Diagonal Line it's the same - the drawing has to decide to appear within a very specific timing window in order to cause a death that can be attributed to randomness. Yes, these things do happen. I acknowledge that. But really, how often do they occur? Those of you who have played this stage often, consider how often Diagonal Line appears. Out of those times, how often does it actually take a stock?

As a quick note, take a look at how many drawings are actually potentially problematic:

• 6/27 have active hitboxes - Arrows, Cart, Fire, Missiles, Plant, Spikes
• 6/27 have temporary "walls" - Arrows, Bricks, Diagonal Line, Sailboat, Singer, Whale
• 3/27 form solid walls/ceilings that could lead to awkward recovery positions - Blowing, Diagonal Line, Spikes

This is a total of 12/27. Walls are only a problem in a few matchups, so in the majority of matchups, we have 8/27 that are potentially problematic, two of which are Fire and Blowing, which very rarely cause significant damage, so that number could easily be considered 6. Recall that an average 5-minute match will only see 15 drawings out of the 27.


Considering the rest of Brawl...

I will not dwell too long on this topic, as it has been said many times before, but it deserves mentioning. Consider Dedede's side-b. Consider Game and Watch's Judgement, Luigi's Green Missile, Peach's turnips. Consider tripping. These are all factors that we accept that have the potential to change a match due to randomness. I've heard the counter-arguments before - that these are player-initiated, that we cannot feasibly remove these, etc. - and some of them are valid points...

...but more importantly, consider the precedent we set in allowing Yoshi's Island to be starter. We allow Frigate Orpheon to be an undisputed counterpick. We rarely hear complaints about these stages when the Support Ghosts can randomly save/take stocks. A match between two close players involving Olimar on Frigate could quite possibly be decided by whether the stage decides to spend more time on the first transformation or the second. Randomness permeates Brawl, and it comes down to where we draw the line. I feel that people underestimate the randomness in other stages while overestimating the randomness in Pictochat, causing them to draw the line before Pictochat, when really the space separating Pictochat from other stages is not large enough to warrant that decision.

So, why does Pictochat seem more random than it actually is? I see two reasons; one is simply the fact that this stage can actively harm and kill players, whereas other forms of randomness do not. Frigate can sway a match in a passive, often unnoticed way. Yoshi's Island's ghosts tend to save stocks more than take, so it feels better, even though the net result of taking your stock or saving your opponent's stock is the same: in both cases the stock count is displaced from what it would have been without stage interference.

The other is confirmation bias.

A tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions ~ScienceDaily​

We see the Support Ghost on Yoshi's Island save someone twice in a match and we think "lol Yoshi's". We see the spikes appear as someone is being thrown on Pictochat and think "omg ban". Every time something unfortunate happens on this stage, people are pushed closer and closer to the ban side, because it affirms the opinion that this stage is ridiculous and anti-competitive. Step back and try to consider objectively - what is the actual impact, and how often does it occur? And then compare it to other aspects we have in Brawl.

Unfortunately, I cannot offer definitive proof, but I firmly believe that the randomness present on Pictochat is not that far out of line with what is in the rest of Brawl, and I believe that it is largely due to a player's preconceptions that most do not see it the same way.


Why include it then?

While I do not believe that this is a question that should ever be asked, I will address it. Even if you were somehow convinced by my rambling above, you might ask "But even if the randomness is acceptable, why not remove it? If randomness can be easily removed, then why not?". I am not even going to default to the tired legal-until-proven-banworthy argument here, because the benefits of including Pictochat is something I can actually address.

First of all, this is a stage that heavily rewards a player's adaptibility and stage knowledge. While I realize that some may not place as much value on these qualities, I should hope that they can still see that those who put in the effort to learn a stage should probably be rewarded.

Then, this stage has unique blastzones. The ceiling is higher than the standard Battlefield/Final Destination/Smashville height, while the sides are relatively short. Varied blastzones, in moderation, is perhaps the least intrusive way to introduce counterpicking qualities into a stage. This leads us to perhaps the most obvious benefit: that we gain an entry in our stage pool. Some characters, such as Olimar, Diddy, Falco, and Pokemon Trainer, really benefit from having this stage available. If we deem the randomness ultimately acceptable, but ban Pictochat anyways, we are robbing these characters of a strong counterpick. It should also be noted that this stage is not exceedingly strong for Meta Knight.

 

[Tagxy]

Great post. Personally a big fan of Pictochat, I think the hate is overestimated in this thread.

 

[fUddO]

I was starting to be swayed by all of the Picto-hate, even though I love the stage myself, but your post has convinced me that it belongs. Either that, or YI:B should be banned. :320:

 

[WindMajor]

Great post, T-Block.

My opinions on Pictochat have swayed once again.

 

[CT Chia]

My case on Pictochat
An excerpt from another post, so that explains if anything seems out of place or read weird on its own.​

So that's honestly only one main problem I've seen (in the videos I was analyzing prior to this post), hit or thrown off into appearing spikes and being stage spiked downwards.

Otherwise...

People REALLY need to learn how to play this stage, seriously.

This is a counterpick stage, meaning it favors some characters and can potentially hurt others. It is not neutral in nature, and some previous knowledge is needed to play on it properly.

This stage rewards characters
-with versatile recoveries and mobility that can adapt to different situation
-good at forcing their opponent into fewer situations
-that have strong moves that can be comboed into (that otherwise wouldn't hit often)
-that normally aren't as good at approaching

This stage hurts characters
-that are somewhat lighter
-that have restricted recoveries

Furthermore, in order to play a stage correctly one should:

-Be wary of approximately when transformations should appear
-Know every transformation and how to use each of them to your advantage
-Know how to limit your opponent's options
-Be able to react quickly and DI surprise attacks appropriately
-patience: constantly rushing in isn't always a good tactic, keep steady and observe the stage along with your opponent
-Know other tricks that are present that some may overlook being busy dealing with transformations (such as the ledges allowing DK to do his upB punish that otherwise only works on Yoshi's Island)
-Risk assessment: Know that by doing certain options, there are positives and negatives that can happen. Before you recover with Pikachu's overB in the middle of stage, first determine if it's worth the risk of doing it with spikes/missiles possibly coming up, and if you think it's not worth it, recover a different way. If you have no other way, the the opponent is limiting your options appropriately and being rewarded.


I often counterpick this stage with ROB for the following reasons.

-It's taller than normal vertically, and since ROB dies fairly early off the top, this helps keep me alive longer
-ROB has a tough time recovering to the stage, and I can use transformations to my advantage to land such as
--the tons of tiny platforms all over does wonders for my recovery making it down safely
--a large high up platform (the one with stairs)
--fire that I can purposefully hit (it only does 1 damage per hit!) if I would otherwise fall into an opponent's attack
--have the line stop my opponent from edgeguarding me
-I have neat tricks on some transformations such as on the one with spikes coming out of the ground, I can fully charge (or no charge) a gyro and shoot it right onto the tip and it bounces it high up into the air, stopping anyone from approaching me in my safe box, and it comes down later for me to catch and use
-The transformations can cut up a battle (similar to PS1 transformations), giving me time to charge my laser, and get a fully charged gyro handy
-rob is versatile enough with his upB to avoid getting gimped by the line, or falling into missiles/spikes most of the time

tons of characters have small things that aren't game breaking they can use to their advantage on this stage, and in exchange, some characters are hurt a little bit (in a not game breaking way).


--


most bad things stem from tiny one off occurences that honestly aren't so bad
a lot of people don't understand how to play the stage properly imo
most bs that happens can be avoided very easily
certain characters benefit a bit from the stage, and it hurts some others, which feels perfect for a counterpick
the stage is very different from all other legal stages, and the added diversity makes for refreshing gameplay, both for competitors and spectators
the stage can get on people's nerves if they absolutely despise stage interaction with fighting, so there are personal preference reasons to ban the stage, not just matchup reasons (which feels a lot more like how banning and counterpicking was in Melee)


so there we go, thats my take on it

 

[Bizkit047]

The chance of random effects on gameplay are not outweighed by knowledge of the stage, IMO. Comparing it to YI is also an extreme exaggeration. While the platforms are random, all the player has to do is know that in two small areas of YI there is a very small chance that the player could be saved from a gimp. It is incomparable to getting auto spiked from an invisible transition, or losing your stock because your recovery options randomly got cut in half.

 

[Tagxy]

I feel like you didnt read either post carefully since all of that was addressed very specifically. If you did see that they were addressed, theres no point repeating the argument if you dont add something new.

 

[CT Chia]

Recovery options getting cut in half is a key part about the stage I addressed, limiting options. Characters who are more versatile in such outperform them in this regard.

auto spiked from invisible (in the process of appearing) spikes is the only thing iv seen where iv been like, oh i cant argue that, but that one thing is not enough to convince me that it should be banned.

and a note about yoshis, that small area is in one of the most popular areas to be gimped or spiked, and happens on both sides of the stage.

But that's besides the point, I'm not personally trying to compare the two. A lot of my argument is actually about how unique Picto is.


Also I forgot to point out something huge in the post I had written that TBlock found from analyzing the stage a while ago,
Pictochat cycles through every transformation before showing the same transformation a second time. It takes over 8 minutes long to see every transformation, which means in one single competitive match the same transformation will now show up more than once.
This means that if a transformation appears, you can somewhat mark it off in your mind as not having to worry about it again for the rest of the match. This is HUGE for learning the stage, and aids in decreasing the random surprise factor everyone is so floored by.

 

[Spelt]

Regarding t-block's post: It doesn't really matter how often the bad transformations appear, all that matters is that they're there, and they happen. Losing a stock over a bad transformation out of what, 10 matches? Is still losing a stock completely unnecessarily which you had no control over. It wouldn't matter if you had a phone for 5 years and then lost it, because you still lost it, and that sucks no matter how long it took for it to happen.

Even if a stage is theoretically unfit for competitive play 1 out of 10 matches, it's still unfit for competitive play.

 

[Tagxy]

Regarding t-block's post: It doesn't really matter how often the bad transformations appear, all that matters is that they're there, and they happen. Losing a stock over a bad transformation out of what, 10 matches? Is still losing a stock completely unnecessarily which you had no control over. It wouldn't matter if you had a phone for 5 years and then lost it, because you still lost it, and that sucks no matter how long it took for it to happen.

Even if a stage is theoretically unfit for competitive play 1 out of 10 matches, it's still unfit for competitive play.

Items off, fox only, FD .

Really getting the sense people arent reading his post since theyre repeating things hes addressed, such a shame.

 

[T-block]

Regarding t-block's post: It doesn't really matter how often the bad transformations appear, all that matters is that they're there, and they happen. Losing a stock over a bad transformation out of what, 10 matches? Is still losing a stock completely unnecessarily which you had no control over. It wouldn't matter if you had a phone for 5 years and then lost it, because you still lost it, and that sucks no matter how long it took for it to happen.

Even if a stage is theoretically unfit for competitive play 1 out of 10 matches, it's still unfit for competitive play.

Interesting that you would say that... it doesn't matter how often they appear? Then the comparison between Yoshi's and Pictochat would truly hold, as both can change the stock count due to pure chance. The only difference between them really is frequency.

And Pictochat influences a match far far less often than 1 in 10, but obviously I can't prove that, so that's all I have to say.

 

[sunshade]

I will agree that the line is terribly programmed but saying pictochat should be banned exclusively for that reason is like saying castle siege should be banned because on occasion you will fall through the stage.

 

[Gea]

@Gea- Cool story bro. Larger stage list means....well I'm not sure what it means. I guess you think it's 'better' for competition. I'd like to say though, that w/ this being the only (or at the very least 'one of the few') 'fighter' game where stage plays a large factor (you could say Smash in general but Melee's crowd might beg to differ slightly), you could argue that 'better' would be limiting the stages down to non-interfering stages, per how it is in normal fighting games. The large majority of tournament goers like stages were it's PvP and that's what this Unity Ruleset was aiming to please. Aiming to please the masses.

But that's wrong. Comparing Smash to other fighting games isn't logical. You don't have a clear % of KO, and stage dynamics will always play an important role no matter how limited you make the stage list. You are just allowing those stages a more pronounced effect. If you played on FD every time all you are doing is skewing the characters more and more. This isn't street fighter. I agree there is a line that needs to be drawn with what stages should be allowed, but your argument is nothing more than "I am speaking for all smashers when I say..."

Unity Ruleset wasn't aimed to please. It was aimed to have a standard ruleset for Brawl by making compromises (aka no one is happy about the changes) since Brawl's ruleset is so controversial. I don't see a ton of pleased people in this thread, nor in my region. They are still going to attend tournaments and deal with the ruleset, but it's obvious this is far from a perfect ruleset and it's creation is not well defined to the end user.

I will agree that the line is terribly programmed but saying pictochat should be banned exclusively for that reason is like saying castle siege should be banned because on occasion you will fall through the stage.

No, you can clearly see the transformation before you are able to fall through, are you not? Though I agree both Yoshi's and Frigate can lead to stock changes based on total luck. I don't think Picto is a fair stage, but I do like the stage for what it offers minus the DEATHLINE.

 

[Spelt]

Interesting that you would say that... it doesn't matter how often they appear? Then the comparison between Yoshi's and Pictochat would truly hold, as both can change the stock count due to pure chance. The only difference between them really is frequency.

Yes but you can't really consider it a hazard since it helps the person in question, like you said there's a difference between a positive influence and a negative influence. Just because they both "change the stock count" doesn't really mean they should be looked at as equals.

I've also never really thought of YI as a neutral.

And Pictochat influences a match far far less often than 1 in 10, but obviously I can't prove that, so that's all I have to say.

It was just an example. My main point was that you're kind of just going "Oh, this stage is okay most of the time", which seems pretty backwards to me.

 

[Conviction]

Wow I'm just going back and forth on these things, the arguments in here are now starting to get somewhere.

 

[T-block]

The chance of random effects on gameplay are not outweighed by knowledge of the stage, IMO. Comparing it to YI is also an extreme exaggeration. While the platforms are random, all the player has to do is know that in two small areas of YI there is a very small chance that the player could be saved from a gimp. It is incomparable to getting auto spiked from an invisible transition, or losing your stock because your recovery options randomly got cut in half.

Again, the chance of being auto-spiked by an invisible transition is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the chances of the ghost on Yoshi's Island saving someone. It's just that seeing a character spiked like that is so appalling we immediately deem in unacceptable, when it really doesn't happen that often.

Yes but you can't really consider it a hazard since it helps the person in question, like you said there's a difference between a positive influence and a negative influence. Just because they both "change the stock count" doesn't really mean they should be look at as equals.

I've also never really thought of YI as a neutral.



It was just an example. My main point was that you're kind of just going "Oh, this stage is okay most of the time", which seems pretty backwards to me.

Did you watch the videos I linked? The platform can lead to kills as well, not just saves. I have seen Lucas/Ness have their recoveries eaten by this platform SO many times it's not even funny anymore. I honestly don't see the difference between my opponent gaining a stock and me losing one. If I had to choose one, it's not obvious which one is better =\

If saying "it's okay most of the time" is not legitimate, we really shouldn't be playing this game. Dashing is okay most of the time. Yoshi's Island is okay most of the time, but I've played in a doubles match where one team gets saved from low-mid percent gimps THREE TIMES, while the other team did not get saved once, even though the opportunities were there. Is that really okay?

 

[MK26]

This post looks weird without a title​

lol'd

A case for the legalization of Pictochat​

:/'d

The videos being presented do not capture the whole picture

First off, let me begin by refuting all of this video "evidence" being brought to the table. These videos are entertaining, and do indeed show what Pictochat could potentially do, and a compilation can be quite convincing. However, it is important to realize that such a compilation cannot capture the frequency at which these events occur. Click the following links, one after another: (snip)

Of course compilations are nice, but why do I need to show you a compilation when I can show you a single match, at that elusive 'top of the metagame', where the players still can't handle all of the hazards. May I direct you to a post I made and reposted, both times without a response:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAydvCDSWk&t=13m29s

Legitimate uses of Picto's hazards in this matchup:

15:23 - piranha is chilling there and Razer rolls right into a grab-uthrow-bonus damage. Certainly preventable.

16:59 - this one is borderline...Ally did make the mistake of up-b'ing into the missile, but he didnt really have many options in the situation. 45%+stock that probably was preventable, but really had no business taking place.

Stupid Picto bull:

14:29 - Ally misses a pivot grab that couldve led to something, but mightve led to nothing. One second later, Razer begins a nair and the spikes immediately show up. Without any possible way of predicting or preventing this, Ally gets a free extra 20%, Razer's nade blows up, and Ally punishes for the stock. Good job on Ally's part for recognizing his options, but a fair amount of dumb luck factored into getting that kill.

15:33 - Razer blows up his C4 to land, but note that Ally wouldve jumped into the flame regardless of whether or not the C4 hit him. In total it's only about 5% extra damage, but Ally loses every shred of momentum he had thanks to the RNG.

17:18 - basically the stage going trolololol at Ally's attempt to chase...and yes, the damage that the stage prevents from happening is just as important as the damage it causes. No prediction/prevention possible. The transformation is stalled out and the situation goes back to neutral.

17:37 - initially I was going to disagree, but looking back at the video, this is in fact another case of Picto randomly screwing a player over. An interesting mindgame scenario turns into the game for Ally; as the cart started getting drawn in after the first grab, Razer had no chance at prediction, and if your only options are 'airdodge into/attack the guy planning on shieldgrabbing once you do' and 'jump into the path of the rapidly approaching deadly hazard', there really isn't much of a choice in the end.

===

In most cases randomness can be handled, but Picto's particular brand of unpredictable and unpreventable (one by itself is usually ok) at the same time is, imo, way too much for competitive play. I'm not one to say that the match wouldve ended similarly on a different stage, but it's pretty safe to say that the route taken to get to the finish would certainly require much less dodging around and stepping in bull****.

That's one match. With more than enough unpredictable, unpreventable randomness for its own compilation.

How random is Pictochat?

I firmly believe that many overestimate the actual influence of randomness on a match. Let's get some stage facts out of the way first:

• While the timing cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy, it can be predicted to within an interval of around three seconds. Generally, a drawing will appear after 6-9 seconds of blank time.
• After a drawing has appeared, it will not appear again for the rest of the match (using 8-minute time)
• It takes 9 minutes to cycle through all 27 drawings. This means that an 8-minute match will see approximately 24 drawings, while a more average 5-minute match will only see 15.

Note that the interval where a drawing could appear is only three seconds. That is not a large window, and practising on Pictochat allows you to develop a definitive feel for when that window is. This is not an unrealistic expectation - it is something that any player can achieve by practising and putting in an effort to becoming familiar with the stage. If a subpar player like me can do it, most of you can. However, I'm not going to pretend that this alone is enough to mitigate the potential effects of this stage.

The problem with the transformations isn't their moderate level of irregularity, but rather their absolute lack of predictability. Of course, if a game is going to time and you've managed to keep track of every transformation selected so far, you can get a feel for the (presumably) one or two that you still have to look out for. But until that point, it's unreasonable to expect the player to be prepared to adapt to every potentially dangerous or interfering hazard the stage has to throw at you (which by your own count down below starts at one dozen) and still focus on attacking one's opponent.

Going back to the video above, at least twice Ally was stymied by the stage when attempting an aerial juggle on Razer. Do you expect him to simply stop moving and stay in the 'safe zone' on the possibility that moving will do damage to him? What if it transforms instead to a stage that would've drastically cut Razer's options instead (like, say, the mine cart? oh wait...), and he loses the opportunity to punish because he stayed safe when the RNG would've collaborated with him on taking a risk? Very few stages are random on a macro scale, and Picto can't be counted among them, but the point that I'll keep coming back to is that, even when knowing when something will happen, you have no clue or advance warning of what that something will be (unpredictable), and no real way of assuring you stay unharmed by its effects (unpreventable).

Moving on, step back for a moment and consider how many factors must align in order for Pictochat to wildly screw someone over. Hazards that kill, such as Plant and Mine Cart, do not kill at unreasonable percents (typically 130%+) - if launched into the Plant at lower percents, the damage is hardly anything to cry about. Furthermore, if randomness is to be blamed, we must be talking about when the Plant first appears, and the one or two seconds afterwards - any later and both you and your opponent have had enough warning. So what has to happen in order for Plant to significanty sway a match? You must be in a certain percentage range - high enough to die, and low enough that the stock wasn't over anyways (dying at 200% to the Plant isn't the worst thing in the world); Your opponent must have you in a comprimising position, able to force you into the newly-formed hazard, and this must occur within a very specific time window - late enough for you to be hit by the hazard, but early enough that the warning was inadequate - if randomness is to be blamed. On top of all that, you must both be in a place on the stage where the hazard could not have been avoided by DI or airdodging. That is a lot of factors that must be present.

That's certainly a lot of factors, but note that in my video breakdown above the piranha plant example was the only hazard that I said was unequivocally the player's fault for getting hit by. It's the others (jumping into a hazard, jumping into a wall/ceiling, getting grabbed right as a hazard appears so that you had no way to realize you were in danger but your opponent still gets bonus damage) that irk me. The plant is relatively tame as far as the hazards go. The more subtle effects of the stage, like being denied a punish rather than being granted a bonus, get overlooked but are just as important in deciding the outcome of the match.

Chain grabs will inevitably be brought up as a counter-argument. Yes, characters with chain grabs will indeed have an advantage in this regard, as they have control over their opponent for a longer period of time, and have a higher chance of hitting that window. Those who play characters with chain grabs (Falco, Pikachu, Dedede), or those who regularly play against them may see the "randomness" of this stage more often than most. However, I see no problem with such an advantage. It is along the same lines as taking an Olimar to Frigate Orpheon and hoping that the stage remains on the first side for as long as possible... or Peach going to Yoshi's Island with the hope that the platform will save her as she floats down with her Parasol.

I don't disagree with this.

About the effects of drawings that don't do damage, there are three that are brought up regularly: Spikes for forming a ceiling over the edge of the stage, Diagonal Line for taking away the left ledge, and Blowing for forming a solid wall. Again, let's examine how many factors must line up in order for these to significantly affect a match. For Blowing, the face must appear when a character is recovering high from the far right, and must appear within a timing window such that the character recovering cannot react in time to decide to recover low. With Spikes, the victim must be launched into a specific spot at a very specific time. With Diagonal Line it's the same - the drawing has to decide to appear within a very specific timing window in order to cause a death that can be attributed to randomness. Yes, these things do happen. I acknowledge that. But really, how often do they occur? Those of you who have played this stage often, consider how often Diagonal Line appears. Out of those times, how often does it actually take a stock?

Focusing solely on whether the transformations take stocks discounts the less drastic but still important situations of the hazards causing or preventing damage on a whim, as well as the even more subtle momentum shifts that occur. I've never even seen the blowing face gimp a recovery, but I most certainly have seen the game made nearly unplayable by its wind. Also, the character further to the right gets a substantial positional advantage for no good reason. It's certainly unreasonable to try to stay to the right of your opponent for the sake of one drawing, but when it happens, it happens.

Once the > spikes are in play, they're not a problem; it's simply the unpredictable/unpreventable aspect again. Back to the video. Maybe Razer shouldn't've naired at that specific time. Maybe he thought the grenade in his hand would protect him from anything Ally could throw at him - which it could. Unfortunately, it couldn't really protect him from everything Ally could throw him at - including the < spikes that just so happened to show up. A risky but safe position ended up costing Razer the stock. Go figure.

The Picasso line really is indefensible. Like all other non-hitbox stage collisions, it is 'there' before you can see it. Unlike any others (besides the springs, which offer an alternate recovery method for most) it takes away your ledge. Without any warning. I'd like to say 'it's unreasonable to expect...' again, but the fact of the matter is that it'll take your stock if you even go so far as to consider underestimating it.

Simply put, until Picasso shows up, it is NOT SAFE to recover to the left ledge when there isn't a drawing on-screen. The simple chance that it'll show up means you're pressing your luck every time you go for that left ledge. Regardless of how often it actually ends up happening (and it will happen less if people understand the left ledge isn't safe), the possibility means your only option at prevention is by not going for the ledge. Period. I don't have to go into how bad the line is after it's actually finished drawing because it pales in comparison to what losing that ledge means.

As a quick note, take a look at how many drawings are actually potentially problematic:

• 6/27 have active hitboxes - Arrows, Cart, Fire, Missiles, Plant, Spikes
• 6/27 have temporary "walls" - Arrows, Bricks, Diagonal Line, Sailboat, Singer, Whale
• 3/27 form solid walls/ceilings that could lead to awkward recovery positions - Blowing, Diagonal Line, Spikes

This is a total of 12/27. Walls are only a problem in a few matchups, so in the majority of matchups, we have 8/27 that are potentially problematic, two of which are Fire and Blowing, which very rarely cause significant damage, so that number could easily be considered 6. Recall that an average 5-minute match will only see 15 drawings out of the 27.

Noted above. Walls are only a positive problem (that is, actively increasing damage) in a few matchups, but they are a negative one in every single one. Again, the video above (geez, it's such a great example!): Ally is going for a punish, but he gets amusingly boxed in, giving Razer a free chance to land and resetting the momentum to 0. Walls aren't always an unavoidable problem. Walls that don't warn you that they're going to happen are, for the most part. Not to mention that these walls can be attacked through, almost with impunity. If someone decides to go on the offensive from inside the whale or the sailboat, there's really nothing you can do besides shield or eat a few ledge grabs while you wait. Not necessarily that painful, but they still have the capacity to ruin your momentum if the get drawn in at the wrong time.

Considering the rest of Brawl...

I will not dwell too long on this topic, as it has been said many times before, but it deserves mentioning. Consider Dedede's side-b. Consider Game and Watch's Judgement, Luigi's Green Missile, Peach's turnips. Consider tripping. These are all factors that we accept that have the potential to change a match due to randomness. I've heard the counter-arguments before - that these are player-initiated, that we cannot feasibly remove these, etc. - and some of them are valid points...

...but more importantly, consider the precedent we set in allowing Yoshi's Island to be starter. We allow Frigate Orpheon to be an undisputed counterpick. We rarely hear complaints about these stages when the Support Ghosts can randomly save/take stocks. A match between two close players involving Olimar on Frigate could quite possibly be decided by whether the stage decides to spend more time on the first transformation or the second. Randomness permeates Brawl, and it comes down to where we draw the line. I feel that people underestimate the randomness in other stages while overestimating the randomness in Pictochat, causing them to draw the line before Pictochat, when really the space separating Pictochat from other stages is not large enough to warrant that decision.

Two words: Unpredictable. Unpreventable. It's safe to assume that the support ghosts will show up more than a few times in each YI match. You only have to consider one of those places at a time. If it shows up, it shows up in the same spot every time. A perceptive dying character can try to get himself saved by this. A perceptive attacker knows that on YI, the stock is not over until his opponent has hit the blastzone. A perceptive recoverer will know where not to initiate his recovery. Unlike Picto, it is reasonable to expect the Support Ghost to come up every time, and it is reasonable to be able to react to it.

It is not reasonable to take every Picto hazard and non-hazard into account when making a decision on whether or not you should jump 7 seconds after the last one was erased. To think 'if I recover very high, I risk the blowing face, but if I recover somewhat high there's the missile to worry about, and if I recover low I could get stopped by the side of the spring'. By the time you've made the decision, your opponent has already jumped offstage and gimped you. On YI, the question is 'might the support ghost come up?' and the answer is 'yes'. Then 'what do I do if it does?' and the answer varies based on the scenario, but is still reasonable to consider.

Cp'ing Frigate vs. Olimar is a coin flip. Unless it's your best cp by far, it's not a coin flip worth taking for either side.

So, why does Pictochat seem more random than it actually is? I see two reasons; one is simply the fact that this stage can actively harm and kill players, whereas other forms of randomness do not. Frigate can sway a match in a passive, often unnoticed way. Yoshi's Island's ghosts tend to save stocks more than take, so it feels better, even though the net result of taking your stock or saving your opponent's stock is the same: in both cases the stock count is displaced from what it would have been without stage interference.

The other is confirmation bias.

A tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions ~ScienceDaily​

(snip)

The video. The video the video the video. Ally got all three of his kills off of hazards. He also got screwed over by them. Unpredictable and unpreventable. I'm repeating myself. Not to mention the more subtle momentum-killing and damage-preventing factors that Pictochat possess in addition to its deadliness.

Why include it then?

While I do not believe that this is a question that should ever be asked, I will address it. Even if you were somehow convinced by my rambling above, you might ask "But even if the randomness is acceptable, why not remove it? If randomness can be easily removed, then why not?". I am not even going to default to the tired legal-until-proven-banworthy argument here, because the benefits of including Pictochat is something I can actually address.

First of all, this is a stage that heavily rewards a player's adaptibility and stage knowledge. While I realize that some may not place as much value on these qualities, I should hope that they can still see that those who put in the effort to learn a stage should probably be rewarded.

Then, this stage has unique blastzones. The ceiling is higher than the standard Battlefield/Final Destination/Smashville height, while the sides are relatively short. Varied blastzones, in moderation, is perhaps the least intrusive way to introduce counterpicking qualities into a stage. This leads us to perhaps the most obvious benefit: that we gain an entry in our stage pool. Some characters, such as Olimar, Diddy, Falco, and Pokemon Trainer, really benefit from having this stage available. If we deem the randomness ultimately acceptable, but ban Pictochat anyways, we are robbing these characters of a strong counterpick. It should also be noted that this stage is not exceedingly strong for Meta Knight.

It heavily rewards adaptability and stage knowledge, but it also heavily rewards blind luck. Unpre...you get the point. You know which other stages reward stage knowledge? Cruise. Japes. Norfair. Greens. Frigate. Lylat. Delfino. The list goes on. And Japes has essentially the same blastzone configuration as Picto, but is even taller. Anything else separate Japes from Picto? Yes - Japes is predictable.

 

[T-block]

I will watch the vid once I get home from work.

 

[Deleted member]

Awesome post, T-Block.

Also, I fully agree with Tagxy that banning Pictochat is going to make legalizing Norfair and Japes pretty damn difficult.

 

[san.]

I hate Pictochat once I actually LEARNED how to play the stage properly. Believe me, my character is actually pretty good here. I will post more once I read the wall of texts.

 

[Ripple]

I like how every non "national level" TO hates this stage list and starter options. EVERYONE

so apparently only our national TOs are competent and we're all missing something that makes us realize FD is starter material

 

[BSP]

I'm catching up right now, but the amount of people that think FD is a totally fair stage is staggering and I can't believe we are STILL discussing this. The word "neutral" has been twisted so much to mean "static" now, even though it's clearly not the case.


Looking at the pictochat post now.

 

[Raziek]

Yeah yeah I know what the rule is All I'm suggesting is that it is worded more clearly.

It's a really stupid rule though... why the **** does Ganon arbitrarily lose 50% of the time if he LANDS a move? He directly loses the game because he successfully lands an attack. How ******** is that? The programming on Ganoncide is obviously faulty if the game RANDOMLY decides whether Ganon wins or not, based on COMPLETELY arbitrary criteria.

Ganon does the same exact animation for Ganoncide EVERY single time. Whether he wins or loses isn't even character-specific. How can the BBR-RC possibly think that deciding the outcome of a match in a COMPLETELY arbitary fashion is competitively viable?

You say that it's unfair to arbitrarily award the win to one player for using a suicide move. Well here's the thing: IT'S NOT ARBITRARY. There is direct evidence that the programming on Ganoncide is broken: the fact that ganonciding arbitrarily results in one of two outcomes, instead of just one outcome every time.

If the game was designed so that Ganon loses 100% of the time he ganoncides, instead of just 50%, THEN it would be arbitrary to award him the win or the 1-stock rematch, because it's not randomly decided. Ganon knows that he'll lose if he ganoncides.

If the game awarded Ganon a win with some characters but a loss with other characters, due to the size of the opponent's hurtbox, then it would be ALSO arbitrary to award Ganon the win/rematch every time, since the Ganon actually has a way of knowing whether or not the Ganoncide will award him the win or not based on the character he's fighting.

However, the way it is now, Ganon players literally have NO way of knowing whether or not a Ganoncide will make them lose or not. It's completely random, due to faulty programming. THIS is the reason that making a rule that gives Ganon ONE result for ganonciding is NOT arbitrary. Deciding a match completely based on randomness is not competitively viable.

Hell, making a rule that says Ganon LOSES every time he ganoncides is more fair than the current rule. At least it's not based on arbitrary factors.

That wouldn't be the right thing to do though, because Ganon's hurtbox is clearly farther from the blast zone than his opponent's hurtbox during the Ganoncide animation. That's why Ganon should win, or at least bring it to sudden death.


edit: did I use the word ARBITRARY enough? it's because the BBR-RC rule is ARBITRARY

Someone probably already got to this, but a coding error is still no excuse.

Ganon's fair is supposed to auto-cancel. Do we implement a rule where your opponent has to let him finish his endlag first because it isn't fair?

Random outcome is a risk of using the move. See: Gordos, Turnips, Judgement.

 

[Reizilla]

Again, the chance of being auto-spiked by an invisible transition is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the chances of the ghost on Yoshi's Island saving someone. It's just that seeing a character spiked like that is so appalling we immediately deem in unacceptable, when it really doesn't happen that often.

It doesn't matter whether it happens often or not, the difference is whether you're able to do something about it or not. On Yoshi's, from those videos you linked, first one, the Metaknight player should have been aware of the time and the chance for the ghost, stayed in position, then shuttle looped the lag. Problem solved. Whereas, on Picto, it's irrational to say, well, let me just not get hit ever because there's a chance a random transformation might cost me my stock.

Yoshi's, there are things you can do to prepare (see the DK vid, calculated risk) or prevent (what the MK should have done). On Picto, these options (don't get hit) are much more impractical.

I like how every non "national level" TO hates this stage list and starter options. EVERYONE

so apparently only our national TOs are competent and we're all missing something that makes us realize FD is starter material

Yes, it's because they have superior intelligence. Definitely not because they happen to live in the most populated areas of the most populated regions.

 

[Raziek]

lolmeatriding. Nothing wrong with seconding a call for logic. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are making claims or implying things that they simply cannot back up at all. I'm just asking you guys to think about it for a minute. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 7 starters or 9 starters, as long as they do their job (which they do, almost regardless of what you put in them) of providing an unbiased starting ground for a matchup. There is, however, something very wrong with creating a starter list that can allow various characters to force you onto their best stages, and then backing it up with nothing more solid than "well we want to start on a static stage", without any form of justification for that statement.

Edit: Thank you alphicans


also, another thing. I suppose it's best not to bring up stuff like this, but i wasn't the only member of the stages forum who was quite frankly outraged that we were, well, completely ignored. On almost every issue.

We showed again and again why fd is a lousy starter, at least when you have 5 starters. You did not listen.
We showed again and again why larger starter lists (7+) are better. You did not listen.
We showed again and again why picto should be banned. You did not listen.
We showed why two stage bans is a really good idea, at least to the extent that only one stage ban with both rc and brinstar legal should be reevaluated in favor of looking into multiple stage bans (most out of country people are fairly irked about this one, tbh, and i don't blame them). You did not listen.

So... Then the thread comes around, and what do we have? People complaining about picto. People complaining about rc/brinstar. People complaining about fd. Geez, you'd think we might be on to something here...

Look, as much as you (tos, players, whatever) hate to admit it, the stage discussion forums are important. We find **** out, we really think about the stagelist, and we get **** done that otherwise would not get done. We try very hard to make this community more competitive and less willing to ban anything on knee-jerk reaction, and we try to get people to think about this stuff. And we get ignored. But as much as you hate to admit it, we know what we are talking about. We're, for the most part, the people who know the very most about the brawl stagelist and how it should develop to push this game in the right direction. And we're sick and tired of getting snubbed. And i think that it's really justified at this point. I mean, for ****'s sake, i personally went around and talked to each and every to on this list about starters, and i got most of you to agree that fd was a lousy move in a 5-starter stagelist. What changed? I mean, i know alex is one of the most obstinate opponents of liberal starter or stagelists, but he's gone... Who's pushing this agenda?

quoted for truth and justice

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^So you are now against this ruleset as well?

 

[MK26]

Edited my big Picto counter-post.

go read it.