"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Tarmogoyf]

There's only one way to settle this.

WITH ROCKS

Sorry, wrong character meme.

: With a Ganon vs. Jiggs boards Wifi smashfest.

We disagree, but we're hovering around neutral, at least. So while it would be a fallacy of the middle ground to say anything conclusive from this, it suggests that maybe if all parties could see how they fare against each other in a concentrated set of matches, some beliefs closer to reality may emerge.
And we'd have more hard data to back up the number we put down.

And everyone gets matchup experience!


Come on, Ganon vs. Jiggs... it'll be fun! Put it on youtube as a playlist or something.

I loled at this. When Mister E posted it on our boards, I thought he was joking. WiFi is just for fun. It's only good for seeing others people's playstyle, not actual experience. I'll play someone if they want to, but I don't believe it's reflective of the matchup IRL, no matter who wins.

 

[Maniclysane]

Guys stop fighting! The prophecies have told us Jiggz mains and Ganon mains are to be friends! :D

But lol I'll play any Ganny mains on Wifi. I'm a bit rusty though. I've been playing too much melee xD

 

[hyperstation]

Guys stop fighting! The prophecies have told us Jiggz mains and Ganon mains are to be friends! :D

But lol I'll play any Ganny mains on Wifi. I'm a bit rusty though. I've been playing too much melee xD

LOL. 50:50 match-up, and that image explains EXACTLY why...they f*cking complete each other.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, but you didn't do it in a comedic fashion and you didn't imply that you were still completely open to the idea of a Wifi smashfest. It isn't the point, it's how you get the point across.

I thought the overexaggerated "hey!" would show that it was joking hurt feelings.

Oh well.

 

[hyperstation]

I thought the overexaggerated "hey!" would show that it was joking hurt feelings.

Oh well.

Shoulda been more like Navi the Fairy:

HEY! LISTEN!

 

[illinialex24]

Guys, as much as I love Ganondorf, I seriously don't think this matchup is in Ganon's favor at all. The one thing you need to learn is that Jigglypuff is not a bad character in Brawl.

See, the thing about Jigglypuff is she is very good at punishing Ganon. Much better at punishing than Ganon is. Now, unlike someone like Sonic, she actually has some very powerful attacks with which to punish with. She can still sorta B-air WOP and have it combo into itself. Her F-air is a good KO move at high percents, and D-air -> trip -> rest is deadly and the D-air can be very difficult to deal with if the Puff knows how to space.

She is also definitely one of the better characters at gimping Ganondorf. If she F-airs or B-airs your midair jump, it is EXTREMELY difficult to make it back to the stage.

Her F-smash is still good in Brawl. It's a slightly worse version of Kirby's, which is gay as hell and very strong.

One of the things my friend teh_spammerer has said to critique me is that "you kinda do the same thing over and over again." I pointed out he 3stocked my Ganondorf with Jiggs and like only took 3 hits. And he said "well that's cause Ganon sucks and is forced to do the same thing over and over again."

This has to be at least 6/4 in Jiggs favor. It's not a neutral matchup at all.

This. And wifi means nothing, especially when Jigglypuff is in the picture. But just in general.

It can be good for training, but as an indicator for skill it is poor. Personal experiences are a bad indicator of matchups. Wifi personal experiences are even worse.

I got beaten byK Prime on wifi. Does that mean anything matchup wise? No, he just beat me on wifi.

 

[Iwan]

Argh, noobs. Why am I always the one who has to deal with them?

Because you're a delusional player who has no idea what he's talking about.

A good jiggly puff player (Meow), would beat a good ganondorf player (insert preferred player here).

Good jigglypuffs can space aerials to the point of making them un-punishable. Bair, fair, retreat....rinse repeat. Ganondorf, once hit by one of these, is going to get hit by 2 or 3 more of them; if this happens off stage ANYWHERE, it's the loss of a stock for Gdorf. Also, Ganondorf has no way of punishing a shielded aerial from jigglypuff. Not a single one...not even an up air is quick enough to react. Upsmash is far too slow and lacking in range to punish jiggs out of shield, as is any other attack you could possibly use. Up B could work perhaps, but it wouldn't be worth the chance of missing and landing with tons of landing lag. That's asking to be rested.

-Ganondorf is an easy character to dair **** with jiggs.

-Ganondorf gets completely and utterly ***** by jiggs in the air that it's almost sad.

-A good jiggs will instantly take a stock from a ganondorf player if they get them off stage. always.

The only advantage ganondorf has in this match up is in weight, but it's not like jigglypuff has KO problems; despite popular belief jiggs KO's just fine, and can KO extremely early in off stage circumstances/gimping.

Jigglypuff combos Gdorf to the point of ridiculousness, is much much faster, can gimp ganondorf really bad (worst off stage character to play against aside from meta for Gdorf), and is asking to be rested due to his size.

this match up is in favor of jigglypuff and anyone who would argue that is either a biased Ganondorf player, or someone who doesn't know this game, the gameplay physics, and the character match ups.

I hope my opinion is of use in this thread.

SaltyKracka...go to winter smashfest. Meow is going, and there's no reason you shouldn't either. Play him there and see if it changes your opinion. It really is sad, the small amount of skilled jigglypuff players out there. But meow is an amazing player who makes you question Jiggly's placement on the tier list. Play him there and see if it changes your mind.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

This. And wifi means nothing, especially when Jigglypuff is in the picture. But just in general.

It can be good for training, but as an indicator for skill it is poor. Personal experiences are a bad indicator of matchups. Wifi personal experiences are even worse.

I got beaten byK Prime on wifi. Does that mean anything matchup wise? No, he just beat me on wifi.

lol, this person actually used this matchup thread to twist it into a john. I don't know much about these characters (other than they're fellow bottom tierers) so I'm off!

 

[Iwan]

lol, this person actually used this matchup thread to twist it into a john. I don't know much about these characters (other than they're fellow bottom tierers) so I'm off!

Online Johns isn't johning.

Totally acceptable.

 

[Swoops]

Guys, as much as I love Ganondorf, I seriously don't think this matchup is in Ganon's favor at all. The one thing you need to learn is that Jigglypuff is not a bad character in Brawl.

See, the thing about Jigglypuff is she is very good at punishing Ganon. Much better at punishing than Ganon is. Now, unlike someone like Sonic, she actually has some very powerful attacks with which to punish with. She can still sorta B-air WOP and have it combo into itself. Her F-air is a good KO move at high percents, and D-air -> trip -> rest is deadly and the D-air can be very difficult to deal with if the Puff knows how to space.

She is also definitely one of the better characters at gimping Ganondorf. If she F-airs or B-airs your midair jump, it is EXTREMELY difficult to make it back to the stage.

Her F-smash is still good in Brawl. It's a slightly worse version of Kirby's, which is gay as hell and very strong.

One of the things my friend teh_spammerer has said to critique me is that "you kinda do the same thing over and over again." I pointed out he 3stocked my Ganondorf with Jiggs and like only took 3 hits. And he said "well that's cause Ganon sucks and is forced to do the same thing over and over again."

This has to be at least 6/4 in Jiggs favor. It's not a neutral matchup at all.

See, none of us are saying that Jiggz is a bad character. In fact, I think she is extremely underrated and has a lot of potential. She has a great aerial game with great aerial control, fast aerials, attacks that flow into each other very well, surprisingly decent KO ability, pound...no one is using something like "she's a bad character" as an argument. That being said, bad character or no, that should never be something to use in a match up discussion. DK is a great character, but he gets completely ***** by DDD and has a pretty bad match up against Olimar. A good or bad character is decided by match ups, not the other way around.

I still agree that if Ganon is put off stage, it is veeery tough to get back, at least against a good jiggz. Everyone keeps talking about Jiggz amazing spacing, but no one is even paying attention to the fact that every one of Ganon's aerials with the exception of d-air in some cases will out range and out prioritize Jiggz. I'm tired of everyone dismissing it. With Jiggz short hop height and her constantly being in the air, everything she has with the exception of maybe pound gets destroyed by b-airs and u-airs. Hell if we want to pull out wild cards we can probably out range you with n-air, and plain obliterate you with f-air if we have our proper spacing. Scenario, both characters maintain spacing, Ganon wins. Jiggz can punish well with her weaving, but how is she going to punish our lagless b-airs and u-airs? If you were doing the same thing over and over then I'm pretty sure that was a player thing. No character should be forced to do the same thing.

Because you're a delusional player who has no idea what he's talking about.

A good jiggly puff player (Meow), would beat a good ganondorf player (insert preferred player here).

Good jigglypuffs can space aerials to the point of making them un-punishable. Bair, fair, retreat....rinse repeat. Ganondorf, once hit by one of these, is going to get hit by 2 or 3 more of them; if this happens off stage ANYWHERE, it's the loss of a stock for Gdorf. Also, Ganondorf has no way of punishing a shielded aerial from jigglypuff. Not a single one...not even an up air is quick enough to react. Upsmash is far too slow and lacking in range to punish jiggs out of shield, as is any other attack you could possibly use. Up B could work perhaps, but it wouldn't be worth the chance of missing and landing with tons of landing lag. That's asking to be rested.

-Ganondorf is an easy character to dair **** with jiggs.

-Ganondorf gets completely and utterly ***** by jiggs in the air that it's almost sad.

-A good jiggs will instantly take a stock from a ganondorf player if they get them off stage. always.

The only advantage ganondorf has in this match up is in weight, but it's not like jigglypuff has KO problems; despite popular belief jiggs KO's just fine, and can KO extremely early in off stage circumstances/gimping.

Jigglypuff combos Gdorf to the point of ridiculousness, is much much faster, can gimp ganondorf really bad (worst off stage character to play against aside from meta for Gdorf), and is asking to be rested due to his size.

this match up is in favor of jigglypuff and anyone who would argue that is either a biased Ganondorf player, or someone who doesn't know this game, the gameplay physics, and the character match ups.

I hope my opinion is of use in this thread.

SaltyKracka...go to winter smashfest. Meow is going, and there's no reason you shouldn't either. Play him there and see if it changes your opinion. It really is sad, the small amount of skilled jigglypuff players out there. But meow is an amazing player who makes you question Jiggly's placement on the tier list. Play him there and see if it changes your mind.

First off, don't call him delusional when you didn't see who he was responding to, especially when he wasn't attacking jiggly mains in particular. I'm trying to get intelligent discussion going here but all it seems like to me is Jiggly mains trying to defend their character to the death, and saying everything Jiggz can do while knowing nothing that Ganondorf can do. No one is actually trying to discuss the match up itself.

You're whole argument is Ganon is "he is teh heavy and clunky and he gets comboezed." Fantastic, your aerials are unpunishable. That doesn't mean anything if you are getting u-aired and b-aired out of your range. Ganon isn't going to sit there with his thumb up his warlock *** waiting for you to get close and hit him with an aerial. He is going to watch is range, and not let you get close at all. Jiggz has to get inside against Ganon, and it's going to be hard as hell with his range and priority.And you can't necessarily just take the hits trying to get inside, because you'll get damage from like 3 hits and be in KO range.

Well, if Jiggz actually gets inside to attack Ganon's shield, Ganon actually has a very quick shield grab (even if it may be extremely short ranged.) U-air and n-air (and b-air if you end up behind us) OoS should be quick enough as we can DI them towards you to punish any retreat you're trying. U-Air and N-air OoS are 13 and 14 frames respectively, which is definitely enough to punish with.

-How is Jigg going to connect with the d-air? Every angle she takes with the d-air can be outranged with Ganon's aerials. She short hops at us with d-air or tries to space it a bit away, she's a big floating pink target to get hit. She comes at us from above, she's still a pink target to be u-aired.

-How so? When he actually gets hit into the air? If not then Ganon's aerials completely beat out Jiggz aerials everytime.

-Pretty much agreed. Our recovery is horrible and a good jiggly should be capitalizing on it.

The weight advantage goes both ways, we destroy you pretty much starting at 70%. Besides, it's definitely not Ganondorf's only advantage.

There are not many true combos in brawl, so theoretically anybody can get out of your "combos." Meanwhile, we actually have guaranteed combos on you that can build up 21% or just plain KO you before 100%.

There you go again by basing your argument off of your views that Jigglypuff doesn't suck. No one is questioning Jiggly's potential or placement on the tier list, we're trying to discuss a match up.

I want everyone to get along and I like the little puffster, but you need to stop defending so hardand play some theory fighter.

 

[hyperstation]

Online Johns isn't johning.

Totally acceptable.

You're so wrong. Johning is Johning is Johning. That's not to say that WiFi doesn't suck, but if you John, regardless of circumstance, you're still Johning. I complain about WiFi all the time about Lag and ****, but I still always call it a John.

 

[:034:]

Kirby?

Kirby can Gonzo Combo you up to about... 60% from one grab. Don't get grabbed. Fsmash is bull****, that thing just hits way too hard. Kirby can gimp us off-stage with bairs.

We have a lot of range and power over Kirby, though. We definitely have the means to not get grabbed by Kirbs. Kirby has a pretty good aerial game, most notable bair (gimping), uair (combo's) and dair (spike). His tilts do have some range, but dtilt can outrange him.

Kirby's smashes are a bit on the laggy side, except for fsmash. Kirby will always try to save fsmash for the last, since it hits so crazy hard. Dsmash and Usmash have some power, but also a bit more lag and less range.

Kirby is light and can get killed fairly easily... Holding on to your dash attack can turn this game around completely.

Learn to Smash DI his fsmash, god **** I hate that thing XD

 

[studly]

swoops is my freaking hero.... and omg at Iwan

 

[SaltyKracka]

First thing to do when facing a Kirby?
Learn how to chainchoke him.
Insta-win.

 

[TP]

First thing to do when facing a Kirby?
Learn how to chainchoke him.
Insta-win.

We have Dtilt, Jab, and most importantly Ftilt on him from a choke (no dash attack). Looks like it is time to pull out the Flipman>Chainchoke>Ftilt.

 

[SaltyKracka]

We have Dtilt, Jab, and most importantly Ftilt on him from a choke (no dash attack). Looks like it is time to pull out the Flipman>Chainchoke>Ftilt.

TO THE TRAINING MODE! *Runs off to train*

Oh, and TP? I've just had an idea. I propose we rename Chainchoking to Genocide Choke.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Kirby, IMO 6/4 Kirby. I personally feel this matchup is not quite as hard as vs Jigglypuff.

The matchup is in a number of ways like the Jigglypuff matchup, except Kirby is worse at approaching, but better at surviving.

Kirby has some guaranteed throw combos at low percents which are nasty, so don't get grabbed of course....

Well-timed use of DAs, F-airs, F-smashes, and Powershielding his B-air are very key in this matchup. DA, F-air, and F-smash are all able to consistently win out directly assuming you have space to get them off. Also, if he's on the ground, angle F-smash down or it might miss especially if he crouches. Powershielding his B-air speaks for itself, as if you can shut down his number one defense, you'll do well in this matchup. Powershield -> Dashgrab is very good against him if you can get it off.

Kirby is one of those characters who can consistently gimp you when you go offstage. His D-air is too much. <_<

If he ever has to Up-B to recover, spike that **********er.

If he's foolish enough to try going on the ground against you, keep in mind D-tilt outspaces him well. But....a good Kirby will usually frustrate you by floating around in the air a lot.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I have to admit I agree with 6/4, but if the Genocide Choke works out well with Kirbs, I'd definitely upgrade it to a neutral, maybe even (gasp) in Ganondorf's favor.

 

[TP]

I have to admit I agree with 6/4, but if the Genocide Choke works out well with Kirbs, I'd definitely upgrade it to a neutral, maybe even (gasp) in Ganondorf's favor.

We are NOT calling it that. Genocide either means killing many, which this does not do, or killing Geno, which Sakurai already did.

This match is 6:4 Kirby if you ask me, but I could easily be persuaded that it is worse than that. We'll see what the Kirby mains have to say. I agree with Salty that the match could potentially be much, much better if chainchoking leaves the realm of theory for greener pastures.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think that Genocide choke is quite poetic. After all, if a normal choke is a Murder choke, then repeated Murder chokes, where Ganondorf hunts you down, leaving you nothing to do and with no chance to survive, should be called the Genocide choke. No?

I'm also open to naming it the Massacre choke.

 

[kirbz]

I haven't fought many Ganons, but i know a few things:

Don't get grabbed. Never. Unless you want +50%

Kirby's approach isn't that awesome. Actually it kind of fails.

When recovering, I'd Ganoncide.

I say 60-40 due to combos, gimps, recovery, edgeguarding, and (moderate) speed for kirby, while ganon has range and power

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon has combos on Kirby too. Flame Choke -> Jab, F-tilt, D-tilt are raaaaaaaaaape....when you land them.

The great thing about this matchup is that Kirby has very little in terms of what I call direct threat. His approach is bad (meaning he rarely is ever agressive in matchups), and he doesn't have a solid means of camping at long distances where Ganon is weak at. Don't get me wrong, Kirby is also a pain to approach, but if you're trying to make a conscious effort of avoiding him, he can't actually do that much to you.

Brawl is all about patience, but this is another one of those matchups where you see it particularly emphasized for both characters. If Ganon whiffs an attack, he gets punished. However if Kirby starts getting predictable, Ganon can opt to bash through his next attack with one of his own, and trading hits is not favorable for Kirby in this matchup.

 

[MK26]

80-20: Our murder punch (is that what you guys call it?) is faster than yours.

Seriously though, I'd wager its somewhere around 65-35. Based on the assumption that Ganon has a bit of a blind spot below him in the air, it shouldn't be too hard to get 2 or 3 hits in a row on him if you get him up into the air. Also, it's too easy to gimp a recovering Ganon. Ganondorf does have the range and power advantage, but too many of his moves are too laggy to take advantage of this. It's not a huge advantage but a fairly large one. 60-40 seems fair as well.

What's this about chain-choking? I'm assuming it's a techchase side-B. Sounds possible, but really based on prediction and a fair bit of luck...

And Kirby does have a poor approach. We'll either approach from the air or run --> shield. I'd assume Ganon's approach is not much to be reckoned with either. I think this may actually be a matchup where we can camp Final Cutter and get away with it

Yeah, regular advantage seems about right.

Brawl is all about patience, but this is another one of those matchups where you see it particularly emphasized for both characters. If Ganon whiffs an attack, he gets punished. However if Kirby starts getting predictable, Ganon can opt to bash through his next attack with one of his own, and trading hits is not favorable for Kirby in this matchup.

Cue Eff Tee.

 

[hyperstation]

MK26, chainchoking is not tech chasing. Tech chasing is based on prediction and successful guessing. Chainchoking is where you literally hold the opponent in a chain of side Bs ad infinitum. They can not get out until they roll to a ledge and Ganon gerudos (side Bs) them into a ledge grab. It is very difficult to do and requires that you know the every animation (roll away/DI away, roll behind/DI in, get up attack, get up/DI up) following gerudo so that you can respond very quickly and link the next choke. When done correctly it's literally inescapable. This is a very new technique for Ganon and will require a fair bit of learning and memorizing before it will start to more maliciously affect Ganon's match-ups. Be scared in 09, homie...the Dark Lord's coming for YOU.

EDIT: ...and I DARE you to camp final cutter. I'll slowwwwwly walk up, powershielding every cutter that comes my way and when I get to the little puff ball, I'll choke the f*cking life out of him. lol.

Also, the two strongest spikes in the game, DAir and DBS are below Ganon, so I wouldn't exactly call that his blind spot. For haters, yes, Ganon's DAir and DBS (in that order) ARE infact the strongest spikes. If you don't believe me, I'll link to the thread, but I'm lazy right now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can sorta get away with Final Cutter camping on anyone as long as you properly space it. But it's not very threatening at all due to the long startup. Anyone reasonably competent can powershield the projectile on reaction.

Also...Ganon's blindspot isn't so much below him. It's above and to his side. He can cover this spot with a F-air or Up-angled F-smash, which is punishable. U-smash and U-air cover this blindspot too, although the spacing of the hitboxes is a bit more situational.

Below Ganon, his D-air easily beats out most stuff below him. Ganon retracts his body a far bit when D-airing, so the range is deceptive. His D-air comes out reasonably fast too. Also, his Aerial Wizard's Foot comes out fast too, and is VERY powerful and has great priority below him, and definitely not something you want to get hit by at 80% (because it kills stuff really fast when undiminished).

The reason why this matchup is 6/4 and not worse is cause Ganon has a few attacks which can bash through Kirby's stuff, and Kirby can't really threaten Ganon with a devastating approach, and his projectile isn't very threatening either. Kirby doesn't have the same level of mixups as someone like Wario does, so his spacing game is not quite as infallible as it could be.

 

[Clai]

Kirby and Ganondorf- I main both of them

I've been using Kirby pretty much since I got the game, so I know his moveset inside and out. Too mad I can't match up my Kirby and my Ganon, but I've played my friend, who also mains Ganon, with Kirby a few times, so I know a bit what the head-to-head matchup is like.

Kirby's combo-ability is nasty. He can use practically any move he wants and incorporate it into a combo. Tilts, aerials, grabs, everything he has can work into his favor. On the ground, Kirby can try to poke with foward-airs, try to trip you with down-tilt or down-air, or just attack empty space and attempt to bait Ganondorf into attack so he can get inside and up-tilt you into any number of comboes he wants. With somebody as defensive-minded as Ganondorf, Kirby's job is to get in his space and keep it that way so Ganondorf can't use the range he has to his advantage. Also a good note, as much as we discuss Ganon's reverse up-air, Kirby can work reverse up-airs too; it's great for setting up comboes when Ganon's around 50-60%.

In the air, it depends on what zone you want to talk about. The optimal space for both Ganondorf and Kirby is directly below the other one. Ganondorf's up-air has great range and Kirby's down-air's start-up is too much to prevent Ganondorf from striking him. Kirby's up-air, however, is amazing at juggling; I love just whacking the opponent with up-air after up-air and Ganondorf is vulerable to this because he doesn't have an instant down-air that would interrupt the juggling. The sweetspot of Kirby's back-air is at the tip, and it also has a sourspot, so watch out when Kirby uses that move. With the exception of directly below him, Ganondorf is pretty well-protected in his other aerial zones, so a battle in the air will come out pretty nicely for Ganon.

Some of the above posters already said about Kirby's offstage advantage, so I won't go too much into detail. Just watch out for the tip of Kirby's back-air, because that sends Ganon near horizontally (while if Kirby's back-air hits Ganon near Kirby's body, Ganon can DI that up and it won't hurt him too bad). If Kirby is on the stage and Ganon has to recover vertically, just keep in mind that Kirby can use down-angled foward tilts and foward smashes and hit you before you grab the ledge. It's certainly gloomy when Ganondorf has to recover.

Kirby's specials aren't too much to write about. Murder Punch isn't nearly as manly when Kirby uses it, Final Cutter can be powershielded and disregarded (but the move itself can spike you, so watch for that), and the Stone has a lot of startup, but comes down fast, so think twice before following up your attacks if Kirby is above you. I never use grounded hammers, but aerial hammers can be compared to Ganon's foward-air in terms of power and start-up. Aerial hammers are loads better than grounded hammers, but are also more prone to shieldgrabs.

Final points- Kirby can punish Ganondorf (well, everybody can punish Ganondorf), but Ganondorf can punish back. HARD. Once Ganondorf has the proper momentum, Kirby's going to have a really, really hard time breaking through it. If you want numbers, the Kirby boards have the matchup, I believe, at 60-40 in Kirby's favor. With Kirby's starting grab game and off-stage advantage, I think this number is right. However, I am starting to incline that it should be around 55-45, but that's only if we're certain that we can get around some of Kirby's shenanigans such as the previously described grab game.

 

[fromundaman]

I don't have much time to post this, so I'll just make one point. MK26, we pretty much get infinited by the chain choke until the Ganon player messes up. (Twilight Prince made me find this one out the hard way...)

 

[MK26]

I don't have much time to post this, so I'll just make one point. MK26, we pretty much get infinited by the chain choke until the Ganon player messes up. (Twilight Prince made me find this one out the hard way...)

Seriously? It's not escapable? This is confusing...it's a techchase, no?

**** i know so little about Ganon.

 

[hyperstation]

If we're able to get chainchoking to a point where you're getting 7, 8, 9 chokes in a row, a few things will happen. First of all, the Gonzo combo won't be quite as nasty anymore. Kirby deals us about 60% damage without being able to escape, and then the first time we get the puffball in our grasp, we chainchoke him and level the playing field. Secondly, since Kirby's pretty light, it should be noted that chainchoking refreshes stale moves. That means we're gonna have all of our kill moves fresh after a long chain. Normally stale kill moves like DAir, DTilt, and iDA are now completely fresh again and Kirby will be dying at lower and lower percentages.

I don't feel totally comfortable incorporating chainchoking into discussions yet because it's still very new and we need a lot of work before we get consistent enough with it, but theoretically, it can change the numbers of certain match-ups drastically. It's an exciting time for Ganon.

Seriously? It's not escapable? This is confusing...it's a techchase, no?

**** i know so little about Ganon.

It's okay, the tech is new. It's not tech chasing. This is a truly inescapable combo based on reading the animations of the character you're choking and responding to them faster than they regain control of their character. There's a thread on it which is very active right now if you're interested.

 

[MK26]

But then what prevents the person being choked from just doing their regular get-up animation and doing a quick tilt? Sure, you can easily shield-grab that, but the chain is broken.

 

[SaltyKracka]

But then what prevents the person being choked from just doing their regular get-up animation and doing a quick tilt? Sure, you can easily shield-grab that, but the chain is broken.

Because we can either choke or stomp you out of your regular get up animation before you can do anything else?

 

[Swoops]

But then what prevents the person being choked from just doing their regular get-up animation and doing a quick tilt? Sure, you can easily shield-grab that, but the chain is broken.

You can choke the lag on regular get up before the opponent is able to do anything...theoretically.

By the way, what is Kirby's guaranteed combo up till 60%?

 

[TP]

I don't have much time to post this, so I'll just make one point. MK26, we pretty much get infinited by the chain choke until the Ganon player messes up. (Twilight Prince made me find this one out the hard way...)

I was NOT chainchoking on Wifi. It is impossible. That was regular tech chasing.


It is an interesting subject, whether or not we should include chainchoking in matchup discussions. It has literally never been done in a real match, as far as I know, for more than 2 or 3 chokes. However, it exists. I think it should not affect the matchup numbers yet. If or when we reach a point where it is the real deal, we can readdress the characters it affects briefly and give them a mini update. Until then, it is unfair to say "If there was a Ganon main who is better than any real Ganon main, or if we had a time machine and ourselves a few months from now played you, we would have the advantage."

 

[SaltyKracka]

Until then, it is unfair to say "If there was a Ganon main who is better than any real Ganon main

Technically, that is, in fact, the case. Matchup discussions involve the top of the current metagame, and chainchoking is included in that. After all, most of this stuff is theoretical in the first place, so theoretical players are needed as well.

 

[MK26]

You can choke the lag on regular get up before the opponent is able to do anything...theoretically.

By the way, what is Kirby's guaranteed combo up till 60%?

Well...technically it's only guaranteed up to 38%...but it's guaranteed.

Fthrow u-air reverse u-tilt b-air --> 38%
Chase, regrab upon landing, dthrow, chase... can rack quickly

 

[adumbrodeus]

I was NOT chainchoking on Wifi. It is impossible. That was regular tech chasing.


It is an interesting subject, whether or not we should include chainchoking in matchup discussions. It has literally never been done in a real match, as far as I know, for more than 2 or 3 chokes. However, it exists. I think it should not affect the matchup numbers yet. If or when we reach a point where it is the real deal, we can readdress the characters it affects briefly and give them a mini update. Until then, it is unfair to say "If there was a Ganon main who is better than any real Ganon main, or if we had a time machine and ourselves a few months from now played you, we would have the advantage."

Actually no, match-ups aren't about any particular player, they're about the character.


And in order to understand how the characters fair, the top of the current metagame is taken, not whether or not anyone can actually do it.


*works on chainchoking*

I've actually been trying to see if we can do the snake thing, because he infinites with his downthrow on smaller platforms. Maybe we can too, because it's same basic idea.

 

[Iwan]

See, none of us are saying that Jiggz is a bad character. In fact, I think she is extremely underrated and has a lot of potential. She has a great aerial game with great aerial control, fast aerials, attacks that flow into each other very well, surprisingly decent KO ability, pound...no one is using something like "she's a bad character" as an argument. That being said, bad character or no, that should never be something to use in a match up discussion. DK is a great character, but he gets completely ***** by DDD and has a pretty bad match up against Olimar. A good or bad character is decided by match ups, not the other way around.

I still agree that if Ganon is put off stage, it is veeery tough to get back, at least against a good jiggz. Everyone keeps talking about Jiggz amazing spacing, but no one is even paying attention to the fact that every one of Ganon's aerials with the exception of d-air in some cases will out range and out prioritize Jiggz. I'm tired of everyone dismissing it. With Jiggz short hop height and her constantly being in the air, everything she has with the exception of maybe pound gets destroyed by b-airs and u-airs. Hell if we want to pull out wild cards we can probably out range you with n-air, and plain obliterate you with f-air if we have our proper spacing. Scenario, both characters maintain spacing, Ganon wins. Jiggz can punish well with her weaving, but how is she going to punish our lagless b-airs and u-airs? If you were doing the same thing over and over then I'm pretty sure that was a player thing. No character should be forced to do the same thing.



First off, don't call him delusional when you didn't see who he was responding to, especially when he wasn't attacking jiggly mains in particular. I'm trying to get intelligent discussion going here but all it seems like to me is Jiggly mains trying to defend their character to the death, and saying everything Jiggz can do while knowing nothing that Ganondorf can do. No one is actually trying to discuss the match up itself.

You're whole argument is Ganon is "he is teh heavy and clunky and he gets comboezed." Fantastic, your aerials are unpunishable. That doesn't mean anything if you are getting u-aired and b-aired out of your range. Ganon isn't going to sit there with his thumb up his warlock *** waiting for you to get close and hit him with an aerial. He is going to watch is range, and not let you get close at all. Jiggz has to get inside against Ganon, and it's going to be hard as hell with his range and priority.And you can't necessarily just take the hits trying to get inside, because you'll get damage from like 3 hits and be in KO range.

Well, if Jiggz actually gets inside to attack Ganon's shield, Ganon actually has a very quick shield grab (even if it may be extremely short ranged.) U-air and n-air (and b-air if you end up behind us) OoS should be quick enough as we can DI them towards you to punish any retreat you're trying. U-Air and N-air OoS are 13 and 14 frames respectively, which is definitely enough to punish with.

-How is Jigg going to connect with the d-air? Every angle she takes with the d-air can be outranged with Ganon's aerials. She short hops at us with d-air or tries to space it a bit away, she's a big floating pink target to get hit. She comes at us from above, she's still a pink target to be u-aired.

-How so? When he actually gets hit into the air? If not then Ganon's aerials completely beat out Jiggz aerials everytime.

-Pretty much agreed. Our recovery is horrible and a good jiggly should be capitalizing on it.

The weight advantage goes both ways, we destroy you pretty much starting at 70%. Besides, it's definitely not Ganondorf's only advantage.

There are not many true combos in brawl, so theoretically anybody can get out of your "combos." Meanwhile, we actually have guaranteed combos on you that can build up 21% or just plain KO you before 100%.

There you go again by basing your argument off of your views that Jigglypuff doesn't suck. No one is questioning Jiggly's potential or placement on the tier list, we're trying to discuss a match up.

I want everyone to get along and I like the little puffster, but you need to stop defending so hardand play some theory fighter.

1: I mean Peach

2: I secondary Ganondorf

I know what ganondorf is capable of, and I 100 percent did not base my views off of jigglypuff "not sucking". I based it off of the two characters, what their individual traits as characters are, and which character has an advantage at the absolute highest level of play

And at the highest level of play, a ganondorf would not have a neutral match up with jigglypuff. It would be a favorable match up for jigglypuff. Just how favorable is open for argument.

Dair is really easy to hit ganondorf with. As a player do you ever spot dodge? If so, you'll get daired a few times in a match. And getting daired isn't a big deal with most characters, but with ganondorf's size it's easy to footstool combo him, not to mention it's even easier to rest him since dair causes tripping. Everytime? No. Fairly often? Yes.

When I made my original post in this thread, I did use some theory fighter. If anything I should be biased towards ganondorf, but as someone who knows the character, I can say without hesitation that jigglypuff has an advantage against ganondorf at high levels of play. Without question. And tournament players, hosts, and people who take home money playing this game would agree with me.

I'm not biased; I've never touched jigglypuff but once, and I'm terrible with jiggs. I just know, however, that if an amazing jigglypuff player played an amazing ganondorf player, the jigglypuff would have the advantage.

If M2K learned how to play ganondorf flawlessly, and learned how to play jigglypuff flawlesslyl....M2K's jigglypuff would beat M2K's ganondorf, because in this particular match up, ganondorf has less things going for him than jigglypuff does. That's my opinion, from an unbiased point of view.

Take from it what you will homie, no need to agree, just stating what I strongly believe to be correct information.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

2: I secondary Ganondorf

I know what ganondorf is capable of, and I 100 percent did not base my views off of jigglypuff "not sucking". I based it off of the two characters, what their individual traits as characters are, and which character has an advantage at the absolute highest level of play

You know what Ganon's capable of? I don't believe that. Only a couple Ganon mains can use him at his highest level of play, and apparently you second him.

 

[hyperstation]

You know what Ganon's capable of? I don't believe that. Only a couple Ganon mains can use him at his highest level of play, and apparently you second him.

This is quoted for SOOOO much truth. IWAN, unless you're spending as much time effing with Ganon as me, Kosk, Swoops, Kalm, FD, Z1GMA or a few other seriously meta Ganons, don't act impervious to suggestion. We know and can do sh*t with Ganon that you didn't know existed outside of your dreams. That's not gloating, that's just fact.

 

[fromundaman]

I was NOT chainchoking on Wifi. It is impossible. That was regular tech chasing.

Heh, I thought you were, since it seemed you backed up to the same place every time, and no matter what I did (roll away, towards, get up, etc.) you had time to react to and adapt to what I did (since your choke seemed to reach all the way to me if I rolled away.). Maybe I was messing up then, but I remember the only way I was getting out of it was by laying there a few seconds to throw you off (and that eventually earned me some Dtilts instead >.<