The timer?

[F A N G]

Brawl also has less stocks than melee, so having the same timer still gives more time per stock anyway

 

[Kaffei]

I'd like that

@F A N G: Melee doesn't have characters that have 6 jumps + a glide

 

[F A N G]

I'd like that

@F A N G: Melee doesn't have characters that have 6 jumps + a glide

That's true, but there are plenty of melee characters have the capability to time out without that.

I'm not even sure what's being argued here, this is what I've seen in this thread:

Time-outs are undesirable > There's nothing wrong with time-outs > Melee and Brawl should have different timers because they're different paced games.

What's the argument for more time?

 

[ADHD]

Less than one percent of the games at MLG went to time.

At what event? All of them, or Dallas?

That's true, but there are plenty of melee characters have the capability to time out without that.

I'm not even sure what's being argued here this is what I've seen in this thread:

Time-outs are undesirable > There's nothing wrong with time-outs > Melee and Brawl should have different timers because they're different paced games.

What's the argument for more time?

Metaknight's capacity for timing out players in the set Brawl timer now is very high, and not even stage-dependent. If you are satisfied with Metaknight's time-out wins ending with both players having two stocks (my argument for time refers mostly to Metaknight), then you can have a problem with this idea, but otherwise, I feel his air abilities are quite abusive.

 

[-Ran]

Every event except Orlando.

 

[F A N G]

At what event? All of them, or Dallas?



Metaknight's capacity for timing out players in the set Brawl timer now is very high, and not even stage-dependent. If you are satisfied with Metaknight's time-out wins ending with both players having two stocks (my argument for time refers mostly to Metaknight), then you can have a problem with this idea, but otherwise, I feel his air abilities are quite abusive.

No, I agree with an extra minute or two to the current timer, but I don't agree with the "melee is a faster game, so brawl needs to have a different timer"

There are different reasons

 

[ADHD]

No, I agree with an extra minute or two to the current timer, but I don't agree with the "melrr is a faster game, so brawl needs to have a different timer"

There are different reasons

Oh, because of the relationship between moves and time within the games. For example, in melee, you could do more actions within a set of seconds than in brawl. Since brawl is slower, to get the same affect, we'd have tweak the timer a little bit longer. I don't see any melee recorded videos of timeouts at all, but there are multiple for brawl due to this bad transition. I can't believe until now the timer subject is being rediscussed by only one person.

 

[napZzz]

add in the 10 minute timer and change nothing else and chances are no timeouts will happen, its too much work. Even if its 2 people camping the **** out of each other its hard enough to go to 8 minutes without some form of planking/air camping...let alone 10

shorter time makes less sense than adding more time...think about it. Like lets say we just take off a minute or two, all that does is make timeouts easier and more viable...its not hard to figure out

I feel like a large portion of the brawl community is lazy and would rather theorycraft all day than try something new, hence why none of the better ideas on here never get tried out or given a fair chance

quote me and be like hurrr nappy if you say its hard enough to hit 8 why does it matter? Because adding in the harmless 2 minutes just ensures time outs wont happen...except i'm sure m2k will find a way -_-

 

[King~]

i agree that the timer should be upped to 10

there have been some melee timeouts aswell, just nowhere near as many

for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg&playnext=1&list=PLBDF43D2D0341E480

 

[Jeapie]

,.

Ey Orion , smash soon?
Fernandez and me are not playing at all ;o

 

[WindMajor]

Oh, because of the relationship between moves and time within the games. For example, in melee, you could do more actions within a set of seconds than in brawl. Since brawl is slower, to get the same affect, we'd have tweak the timer a little bit longer.

Alternatively, you can make the matches shorter instead of making the timer longer.

 

[Orion*]

Ey Orion , smash soon?
Fernandez and me are not playing at all ;o

Wednesday and Thursday I'm free :D
when do you have work??
This next weekend my dad is coming from NY to visit so I will be busy friday-sunday, but after that I have like nothing to do (done with class // exams)

edit: @twinkie

you could... (and I know this sounds awful argument wise LMAO) but I seriously doubt the smash community would change from 3 stocks after using it so long. It really works out pretty well, and while the timer could be improved it's not detrimental enough to make such a drastic change IMO. Adding 2 minutes is much easier than lets say, 1 or 2 stock games with 4-6 minute timers.

 

[Jeapie]

Work on Thursday nothing on Wednesday :D
awesome that your dad will be visiting you from all the way over there

 

[Kaffei]

add in the 10 minute timer and change nothing else and chances are no timeouts will happen, its too much work. Even if its 2 people camping the **** out of each other its hard enough to go to 8 minutes without some form of planking/air camping...let alone 10

shorter time makes less sense than adding more time...think about it. Like lets say we just take off a minute or two, all that does is make timeouts easier and more viable...its not hard to figure out

I feel like a large portion of the brawl community is lazy and would rather theorycraft all day than try something new, hence why none of the better ideas on here never get tried out or given a fair chance

quote me and be like hurrr nappy if you say its hard enough to hit 8 why does it matter? Because adding in the harmless 2 minutes just ensures time outs wont happen...except i'm sure m2k will find a way -_-

Well M2K has been saying forever to make the timer 10 minutes instead of 8. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Laem]

Japan does it.
They're Asian.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have yet to see a logical answer to the following.

Why should the timer be increased to 10 minutes, when overall, less than 1% of all matches resulted in a time out.

If timeouts are obviously not a problem, why are we attempting to remove them again?
In fact, I have some ideas.


1. In the event a match goes to time, the person with the least "cheap" character will automatically win the set.
This ensures matches go by quickly, and we do not have to endure dreaded time outs since someone is playing cheap.


2. In the event a match goes to time, both players will proceed to take turns slapping each other. The first to quit loses the set.


3. Ban Metaknight.
Now before everyone goes "WOMG MK BANNER"
My defense is, If the community is willing to place a ledgegrab limit upon the MK player, despite the fact there is no clear and easy method of keeping track of the number of ledge grabs, then it is being unreasonable to the MK player as well as his opponent who cannot be expected to keep track.

My second defense to this is similar to the first If the community is willing to go to such drastic measures, then one might as well ban the character

My third and best defense is Stop being stupid, time outs aren't an issue int he first place, so why try to nerf something that isn't even an issue in the first place? Oh wait unless you are Meatknight.


tl;dr: I say we go with option 2. It's funny, people will cheer, and its just as intelligent as an lgl.

 

[san.]

The time is too short.

How many matches ended under 2 minutes? Even 1 minute? You also have to take into consideration deaths because one character had to unsafely rush the other as the time is dwindling. All of a sudden, that "less than 1%" becomes much more significant than you imagined.

%s can also be very misleading: How many occurred after like the 3rd or 4th rounds, as you get farther along in the tournament?

We have imperfect time decision methods, and we can't get any better than what we have. All previous alternatives proposed were shot down- rematch (which is an artificial but worse extension of the timer) is obviously worse than what we have.

I believe the key lies in the average time it takes for a match, how much time we give for each stock. I believe the average match is around 5 minutes. Making the timer 2x that isn't much of a stretch. It's reasonable to give 3mins+ for each stock.

Since currently a low percent of matches actually reach that 8minutes, bringing it to 10 minutes would only help, and not noticeably raise the duration of a tournament.

 

[tekkie]

in before ten pages of *****ing and theory.

throw a tournament with a 10 minute limit.

 

[Kuro~]

I still don't see why ppl think having a trial period is such a bad idea? I agree with RB, and orion. We need to get it to be at a national as well though. For best data collection.

Normal campy matches like TKD vs tyrantt on delfino shouldn't be going to time. The fight requires the campiness but it shouldn't be going to time. I vote for 10minute timer. At least testing it out.

Florida don't time ppl out yo. We use da Fl swag to win sets.

Edit: San covered many of my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Kaffei]

I have yet to see a logical answer to the following.

Why should the timer be increased to 10 minutes, when overall, less than 1% of all matches resulted in a time out.

If timeouts are obviously not a problem, why are we attempting to remove them again?
In fact, I have some ideas.


1. In the event a match goes to time, the person with the least "cheap" character will automatically win the set.
This ensures matches go by quickly, and we do not have to endure dreaded time outs since someone is playing cheap.


2. In the event a match goes to time, both players will proceed to take turns slapping each other. The first to quit loses the set.


3. Ban Metaknight.
Now before everyone goes "WOMG MK BANNER"
My defense is, If the community is willing to place a ledgegrab limit upon the MK player, despite the fact there is no clear and easy method of keeping track of the number of ledge grabs, then it is being unreasonable to the MK player as well as his opponent who cannot be expected to keep track.

My second defense to this is similar to the first If the community is willing to go to such drastic measures, then one might as well ban the character

My third and best defense is Stop being stupid, time outs aren't an issue int he first place, so why try to nerf something that isn't even an issue in the first place? Oh wait unless you are Meatknight.


tl;dr: I say we go with option 2. It's funny, people will cheer, and its just as intelligent as an lgl.

Number 2 killed me LMAO

 

[Judo777]

I have yet to see a logical answer to the following.

Why should the timer be increased to 10 minutes, when overall, less than 1% of all matches resulted in a time out.

If timeouts are obviously not a problem, why are we attempting to remove them again?
In fact, I have some ideas.


1. In the event a match goes to time, the person with the least "cheap" character will automatically win the set.
This ensures matches go by quickly, and we do not have to endure dreaded time outs since someone is playing cheap.


2. In the event a match goes to time, both players will proceed to take turns slapping each other. The first to quit loses the set.


3. Ban Metaknight.
Now before everyone goes "WOMG MK BANNER"
My defense is, If the community is willing to place a ledgegrab limit upon the MK player, despite the fact there is no clear and easy method of keeping track of the number of ledge grabs, then it is being unreasonable to the MK player as well as his opponent who cannot be expected to keep track.

My second defense to this is similar to the first If the community is willing to go to such drastic measures, then one might as well ban the character

My third and best defense is Stop being stupid, time outs aren't an issue int he first place, so why try to nerf something that isn't even an issue in the first place? Oh wait unless you are Meatknight.


tl;dr: I say we go with option 2. It's funny, people will cheer, and its just as intelligent as an lgl.

To enforce rule number 1 I suggest we make a tier list of "cheapness." The BBR has work to do!!!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Isn't increasing the timer to reduce the number of time-outs a little like making murder legal to reduce the amount of people sentenced to life in prison, or reducing test score requirements to make more students look literate?

Anymore, I'm not even sure if Melee's format is working in Brawl. We stole Melee's rules and assumed they would translate without really considering how the game is played or how it's different.

Step back for a second and think about time-outs. It's been said before that time-outs aren't inherently good or bad. Time-outs happen in every competitive fighter, even Melee. Some characters are better than others at running the clock in every game. The isn't isn't really with the fact that the clock ran out, but how the clock ran out and what role you had in being timed out. Were you timed out because you made a mistake? Were you out-played? In many instances where a played is timed out, we see that they were simply not playing well after the initial waves of unrest settle. See: RichBrown vs. Will or Dapuffster vs. Plank.

But what about time-outs where we simply couldn't stop it from happening? To most of the community, that's either a problem we can address with a proper rule set or a character deficiency.

The reality is that increasing the timer by 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 10 minutes or whatever isn't going to stop Meta Knight from outright avoiding combat as much as possible for 8 minutes, which is what the problem is anyway. Are we prepared to say "OK, you can do it for 8 minutes, but can you do it for 10? 12? 27?"

I think a format change is long overdue, something like 2 stocks with 4 or 5 minutes. We can mess with it to decide which one works best, but also, if we want to really address the problem, Meta Knight has to go. That's a prerequisite for anything that makes these undesirable time-outs less pervasive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Less than one percent of the games at MLG went to time.

I participated in two of them (in the same set, too), and it wasn't because I was aiming for it. :/

 

[Player-1]

Did they count quitting right before the time went out a time out?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The issue isn't really time-outs so much as the threat of a time-out. We play a certain way to avoid it, or rather, we play a certain way to avoid a certain type of time-out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did they count quitting right before the time went out a time out?

Probably, but, like san said, the fact that matches often end in the last ten seconds because one player has to put himself in a bad position in order to even have a chance to win due to losing toward the end probably means that the number of matches that were timed out is probably much higher than the data would suggest.

 

[-Ran]

Two stock, eight minutes. Reduces time outs drastically and speeds up tournaments. Should at the very least, be the standard for pools.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Did they count quitting right before the time went out a time out?

No, we didn't. We didn't technically mark anything for "time-out," actually. I just manually added that data by checking to see if a game had both players with stock/percent remaining at the end of the game, and marking "yes" or "no" accordingly.

 

[AlphaZealot]

28/3,589 = .0078, so slightly less than 1%, which though really overstates it I think, it is better to look at it like 3,561 matches were completed in the time limit, and 28 were not.

 

[Tesh]

Numbers prove sooooooooooo much. M2K didn't time out Coney, but that match includes all of the problems being discussed here. Its not hard to find a match that WOULD go to time, if the person about to lose wasn't forced to rush down recklessly to try to do something.

 

[Judo777]

Numbers prove sooooooooooo much. M2K didn't time out Coney, but that match includes all of the problems being discussed here. Its not hard to find a match that WOULD go to time, if the person about to lose wasn't forced to rush down recklessly to try to do something.

I was about to say this. Every time the threat of time out is present it almost always results in a hasty and reckless approach. This can be the difference maker in a match.

 

[Toneh]

I also vote for the 10 min timer.

Ask the TO's if they're willing to do it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've timed out ALSM's Toon Link on FD... In friendlies. I'd be completely fine with atleast an extra minute, since even a character like Yoshi can time out some characters. Just half the time most of us would rather get the match over with rather than camp the entire match.

Why does it surprise you that a character with a massive double jump, versatile projectile and insane aerial mobility can time characters out?

3. Ban Metaknight.
Now before everyone goes "WOMG MK BANNER"
My defense is, If the community is willing to place a ledgegrab limit upon the MK player, despite the fact there is no clear and easy method of keeping track of the number of ledge grabs, then it is being unreasonable to the MK player as well as his opponent who cannot be expected to keep track.

Now, I don't know about other Meta Knight players, I might just be the cream of the crop in terms of intelligence (unlikely)... But I count every time I grab the ledge just fine, that's a really weak argument imo.

 

[Tesh]

this seriously happened to me when i clicked this thread

i think it means something

 

[Kuro~]

I seriously don't understand WHY people are bashing this idea. The above reasons are more towards WHY it needs to be happening. So many matches are getting TOO close to time. It shouldn't be like that. A player should feel like he is comfortable enough to approach the situation correctly and intelligently. Which isn't the case many times cuz of an 8 min melee standard timer...

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

this seriously happened to me when i clicked this thread

i think it means something

Smashboards:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I seriously don't understand WHY people are bashing this idea. The above reasons are more towards WHY it needs to be happening. So many matches are getting TOO close to time. It shouldn't be like that. A player should feel like he is comfortable enough to approach the situation correctly and intelligently. Which isn't the case many times cuz of an 8 min melee standard timer...

Like I said earlier:

Increasing the timer to reduce the number of time-outs is like reducing test score minimums to make more kids literate.

 

[King Funk]

I was about to say this. Every time the threat of time out is present it almost always results in a hasty and reckless approach. This can be the difference maker in a match.

Would be more interesting to know how many matches out of those reach 7 minutes.

 

[ADHD]

Supermodel from paris, this is SMASH. We set the ruleset subjectively, because we can't test many things objectively in a non-competitive purposed game.

Too many theorycrafters analyze things so critically that their arguments become unrealistic. I can think of a number of tournaments sets that ended with even both players having their last stocks (when that shouldn't have been the case-they should have finished) merely because the time was too short.

Now let me ask you, would you rather support a game in which the ending occurs because of one player losing all their stocks, or a game in which the ending occurs abruptly with a time-out? We actually set the grade curve in that comparison, and it's not as if players are like the illiterate with reading and cannot play Brawl..

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd rather ban MK and lower the timer and/or stock.

I also really play this game. Just FYI.

I guess my point is just that raising the timer to 10 minutes while not a terrible idea isn't suddenly going to make MK less gay or make him or his time-outs less powerful, we're just going to be asking MK's players to come up with bigger better strategies to time you out. How much wasted time are you willing to bet on this strategy actually making time-outs less viable, anyway? If MK can do it for 8 minutes, he can do it for 10.