the secret zelda strats discussionzone

[Zone]

The problem is I don't know why. Here's my best guesses

-Falcon has the best combination of weight/fallingspeed/size for Zelda to combo him

Falco and Foxes are better because you can chaingrab longer. But I agree, he's alot easier to combo than anyone lighter than him.

-DI'ing the dthrow (away, but with ~30 degrees downward) helps you escape a lot of dthrow comboes. Since Zelda is so floaty, you might land on a platform, so you can tech to help further escape hits. This idea hasn't been tested enough, but Since Nayru's Love makes her invincible from frames 4-11, you could do that after his dthrow to let Falcon pass through you and then the hitbox will hit him after he passes through you.

That is really hard to do especially on reaction everytime cuz of how fast he is. But it is a solid reason. Something that is a necessity to perfect to beat falcon. Although that Nayru's love thing I have never gotten it to work. Not once. I must be doing something wrong.

-Falcon players don't dash dance camp against Zelda. I don't know their real reasoning. Maybe their impatient to hit her? Maybe they underestimate her? I've never asked one why.

You can't generalize like that. You may be having a easy time punishing their aggressive behaviors because they think "Oh low tier that combos as easily as peach this is awesome" when you start getting leads/winning because of their behavior when they change it to camping you it's a lot harder. His camping game is better than yours, and correctly played I believe both characters need to camp each other. Zelda needs to out prioritize, while falcon needs to attack in between attacks. It's almost like a Marth vs Jiggs match. zelda being the Marth, Jiggs being the falcon. Jiggs tries to get in between marth's attacks, while Marth tries to outspace and beat out jiggs with priority from disjointed hitboxes. Once you start ****** them they'll be forced to start playing more correctly in the camp game.

-If you let Falcon be the one o approach, you can set up many walls to stop him. You can stand there and jab and let Falcon's low priority moves get out prioritized. You can throw in a random fsmash which has (about) as much disjointedness as her jab. You can dash attack at him which also has a disjointed hitbox. Basically, she has more ways of stopping Falcon than just toes. (I think this is the most key reason why Falcon is so easy)

I agree jab is nice and fsmash is nice, so is dash attack. To beat out his attacks, but if he Shields your dash attack you are dead. If he jumps at you and then double jumps to avoid your fsmash and comes down and stomps. that could also be Dead. Jab is a pretty fast spam when whiffed especially when you crouch cancel it, into another one.(It's just as laggy though if you hit with it, it seems.) But it doesn't work above you so if he jumps then double jumps wave-lands around. It makes it harder to jab him. while he waits for you to choose a uptilt/kick/ up air or something to whiff so he can punish.

I mean those are very good moves vs him I agree. But not good enough imo to say Falcon is kinda easy.

-Zelda has many ways of edgeguarding Falcon, and Falcon's recovery has limited options. Her dash attack can either push opponents straight up or straight forward. If Falcon is sent up, you may be able to full jump toe him. If he's sent straight forward, he may end up too far both horizontally and vertically to reach the stage. Alsow, when you're a little bit away from the edge where there's just enough room to allow you to dash attack, many of the Falcons I play against think they can be safe going for the edge. Not many have ever tried going for the platform above me, so I'm not shure how well getting a toe can work.
-Also, toe combo breakers.

All true, if they go above you you can kick them. But you need to be pretty precise cuz a falcon can shorten his falling trajectory(horizontally) or move it further in to avoid you. Or pull a silent spectre and edge cancel his Up+B. but yeah if he goes over the stage you technically should/could always nail him with another foot. It's just alot harder to hit him accurately. Than it is for falcon to knee you when you recover over the edge.

I've been playing several good Falcons, including Chillindude, G-Regulate, and Boss. I think what makes fighting Falcon easy is fighting the player of Falcon. When they don't know Zelda's spacing game, they're so easy to punish, much easier than any other character. Zelda has moves where her hitboxes are disjointed and they stay out there, waiting for a victim to walk into one. With Falcon's very fast mobility, It might be difficult to stop yourself when you need to.

You are definitely getting better falcon practice than me. In FL we don't really have but like 3-4 falcon mains. But I don't think they are on g-reg's level.

I think typing this response helped me put pieces together.

Good :D

 

[ChivalRuse]

Man. g-reg beating Cactuar yesterday. Pretty crazy.

Random question: can sheik duck under Zelda's SH rising kick?

 

[Zone]

Man. g-reg beating Cactuar yesterday. Pretty crazy.

Random question: can sheik duck under Zelda's SH rising kick?

Yes, you can't hit her no matter how early you kick.

If fast enough you can actually hit her with down-air as you rise... but she's... CC when she ducks so.. get punished anyways.

 

[EPsilon933]

Random question: can sheik duck under Zelda's SH rising kick?

Yes, she does.

 

[Zone]

Lets keep these discussions going this is entertaining

Let's talk about shiek now :D

EDIT try this it's kinda strict timing. Do a full jump N-air and bust out a up-air before you hit the ground. Has some cool uses on shiek when she has no jumps but I almost never find the opportunity to use it. This is assuming shiek wasn't knocked away by that last hit on Nair.

 

[Magus420]

Also Game Ethics wise:

If I were to find a way to re-own a v1.0. Do you think It'd be ok for every tourney match i play I'm like "we gotta play v1.0" Or is that banned? I dunno I never thought about this. I've always played NTSC since I gave my 1.0 away.

Ideal option would be if not assigned to play the set on a specific setup, try to scout around for some that have a good version beforehand and be the 1st between you to conveniently suggest one of those TVs. Even if there's an open TV that's sucky when the good ones are in use, I'll suggest waiting a little bit to hop on one of them once they finish up. "Want to play on that TV?" or "When they get done wanna play there?" "Sure." They don't even need to know why =D

When you don't have that option most people wouldn't mind I don't think, but probably at worst you'd RPS with them for it like you would for controller port and such.

I think if you can flame cancel with Bowser it means it's good which would be really fast and easy to test, but I've seen some conflicting info about differences between 1.0 and 1.1. Some say 1.1 is not DIable like 1.0, but others say it's only 1.0. It's always been my understanding that it was only 1.0, but recently I saw this and this so now I'm not so sure.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Let's talk about shiek now :D

The Zelda vs Sheik matchup or Sheik in general?

 

[Zone]

The Zelda vs Sheik matchup or Sheik in general?

The matchup.

For instance... You know how you can downtilt shield poke sheik. if her shield widdles down a bit. You can up-air shield poke her head if you get up-air close enough to the ground :D

Ideal option would be if not assigned to play the set on a specific setup, try to scout around for some that have a good version beforehand and be the 1st between you to conveniently suggest one of those TVs. Even if there's an open TV that's sucky when the good ones are in use, I'll suggest waiting a little bit to hop on one of them once they finish up. "Want to play on that TV?" or "When they get done wanna play there?" "Sure." They don't even need to know why =D

When you don't have that option most people wouldn't mind I don't think, but probably at worst you'd RPS with them for it like you would for controller port and such.

I think if you can flame cancel with Bowser it means it's good which would be really fast and easy to test, but I've seen some conflicting info about differences between 1.0 and 1.1. Some say 1.1 is not DIable like 1.0, but others say it's only 1.0. It's always been my understanding that it was only 1.0, but recently I saw this and this so now I'm not so sure.

lol that feels kinda dirty though. Tricking them into v1.0. But hey I'm playing zelda and most of the time my opponent is a high/mid tier. So.. yeah lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik's dthrow -> slap/uair is guaranteed on Zelda, isn't it? That matchup seems like it's all about the retreating kicks (i.e., not getting grabbed). Waveland trixies seem especially crucial vs Sheik, to stay out of her clutches. SH kick -> waveland is pretty sexy.

 

[Zone]

Sheik's dthrow -> slap/uair is guaranteed on Zelda, isn't it? That matchup seems like it's all about the retreating kicks (i.e., not getting grabbed).

Yeah it's guaranteed. using whichever move depending on Zelda's DI. If zelda di's away I don't think Shiek can up-air you at lower %. But if all you really mean is shiek can follow up with nasty after grab everytime. Pretty much yes.

I think it is, Need to stay airborn more to avoid getting grabbed. But ground options aren't completely unreliable.

I played against plank in CEO first round and lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75Ob_rRm-w

The 2 matchups I hate the most are Shiek/Falcon. Next is Fox then Ganon/Marth, Pikachu then Falco/Peach. That's what I fear in difficulty. From personal experience anyways. I've had many people tell me Ganon is really bad. But my success vs him is about that equal of vs Marth.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hmm ... Zelda's spotdodge is 10 more frames than the standard. 4 Extra frames of invincibility and 5 extra frames of vulnerability. Basically only slightly inferior to Marth's spotdodge, and his is still useable. Is grab baiting a viable tactic with Zelda? Like, can you do an aerial -> buffer spotdodge such that Sheik's grab whiffs?

If so, what it the maximum punishment you can deal her for a whiffed grab at point blank range?

 

[Zone]

Hmm ... Zelda's spotdodge is 10 more frames than the standard. 4 Extra frames of invincibility and 5 extra frames of vulnerability. Basically only slightly inferior to Marth's spotdodge, and his is still useable. Is grab baiting a viable tactic with Zelda? Like, can you do an aerial -> buffer spotdodge such that Sheik's grab whiffs?

If so, what it the maximum punishment you can deal her for a whiffed grab at point blank range?

Hmmm, shiek's whiffed grab when jump cancelled has little lag. I even try triangle dodging to get in and I sometimes don't get the punishment.

But if you can manage a close dash attack at lower percents, Go for a f-tilt into turn around grab/or another dash attack. If you grab throw her up and up-air, If you dash attack go for a kick or up-air depends. If she lands on a platform try to tech chase her with a kick, or wave-land grab/dash attack. Which will lead to another hit. This is like the biggest combo I can get on her. most of the time I feel like I'm just poking her. There are a few other combos, but they are way way harder and situational to pull off.

but I don't know about hte spot dodge thing on shieks grab Chival. i'd have to test it out. I don't spot dodge often with zelda myself. if you were to spot dodge shieks grab I feel as though you'd have to spot dodge earlier. so it could end faster after her grab whiffs.

when I do spot dodge I always spam downsmash though to defend myself just after I spot ddoge.


If you can get shiek forced to have to up+B over the edge. I remember mow teaching me you could like infinitely just jump in and grab her out of her landing lag and just keep back throwing. and back throw has enough hit stun at the right% shiek has to jump and up+B again and you just keep repeating. sooner or later shiek will choose the ledge and if you pre-emptive jump over ready to grab she'll get it. so you need to be just slightly patient. Also if there is a platform... uh shiek can aim for that too so that needs to be taken into account.

 

[Zone]

Double Post I know...

Theory: What you said Chival, about attack then buffer a spot dodge. Maybe if you sweet spot the kick on the shield low enough. It gives shiek enough shield stun so when you're already spot dodging and she's trying to shield grab. That delay I mentioned earlier might be automatic. so you end ur spot dodge just in time to punish. Imma have to try it out when i can get someone to play with me.

 

[Magus420]

You'd probably at best get a d-smash or d-tilt if you get the read on the shieldgrab and get it started early enough before they grab. Not really worth the risk imo. I'd rather do kick to f-smash (beats grab, dodge, and safe on block) or low kick to d-tilt shieldpoke (beats hard shield unless they angle down).

 

[Zone]

You'd probably at best get a d-smash or d-tilt if you get the read on the shieldgrab and get it started early enough before they grab. Not really worth the risk imo. I'd rather do kick to f-smash (beats grab, dodge, and safe on block) or low kick to d-tilt shieldpoke (beats hard shield unless they angle down).

I feel like down-tilt is slow after l-cancel. Maybe It's just the animation that looks slow and I feel like it's too slow to use after a kick. But yeah I do buffer F-smash occasionally. I've never once seen someone spot dodge after I kick their shield, but hey if it covers it it covers it.

Most of the time someone spot dodges against me is if they hit MY shield, then they spot dodge waiting for a kick or something. which I love cuz I dont always try to kick asap. and if they spot dodge and I kept shielding it's a free kick.

EDIT: you're probably right Magus, I mean Shield after your kick covers all of shieks options as well, except the grab. and if F-smash beats the grab after you kick her shield as well as covering spot dodge and safe on block). Well then ****. Why even spot dodge. I think too hard sometimes.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, I was actually going to add "if for some reason they" before mentioning spotdodge but I didn't bother =P

 

[Zone]

Magus, Through deduction, I think 1.1 also lets your full Smashes work.

I mean that 2nd thread you linked has phanna as the thread maker talking about his version 1.1

Well in that plank match of me vs him. We were on Phanna's Set up that he recorded and uploaded.

And upon close observation. I don't think plank smash DI'd any hits. And I think he even tried but it failed. Cuz I almost connected a F-smash into a Kick on him lol. and I'm pretty sure he was trying to smash DI out of it and it woulda normally worked but, It was probably phanna's 1.1.

 

[TheManaLord]

I have an AR and both versions I'll test thoroughly tomorrow.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Double Post I know...

Theory: What you said Chival, about attack then buffer a spot dodge. Maybe if you sweet spot the kick on the shield low enough. It gives shiek enough shield stun so when you're already spot dodging and she's trying to shield grab. That delay I mentioned earlier might be automatic. so you end ur spot dodge just in time to punish. Imma have to try it out when i can get someone to play with me.

You'd probably at best get a d-smash or d-tilt if you get the read on the shieldgrab and get it started early enough before they grab. Not really worth the risk imo. I'd rather do kick to f-smash (beats grab, dodge, and safe on block) or low kick to d-tilt shieldpoke (beats hard shield unless they angle down).

I was referring to situations when Sheik is wavedance fishing for grabs, waiting for you to whiff a falling kick, when spotdodge might have some utililty. Sometimes it's worthwhile to throw out the kick, instead of wavelanding back to certain safety, because people occasionally misspace and get kicked anyway. If you in fact whiff, make sure that you fastfall, l-cancel, and spotdodge in anticipation of the grab. Here are a couple examples (I used Marth as an example because his spotdodge has roughly the same properties as Zelda's, and Marth's fair is analagous to Zelda's kicks):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypr6ByUcuSU#t=0m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypr6ByUcuSU#t=1m19s

 

[Magus420]

There's no damage staling in develop mode. They'd have hitlag and be DIable in any version you check that way since they'd never do less than 1 damage. Just play normally and compare hitting someone with Samus' up-b. In good versions Samus will move smoothly upward at the same speed regardless of whether she's hitting someone or doing it against nothing (no added hitlag). In bad versions it's noticeably slower and clunky when hitting someone compared to hitting nothing.

Actually, in the debug menu you should be able to just change the 'Scale' of Zelda's size to less than 1.00 so it'd always do less than 1 damage despite not being able to stale, and still be able to confirm using develop mode's frame advance that way.

 

[Cosmo!]

POEIII was amazing, I got 5th. 80 man tournament

I got 1st seed in my pool, beating a marth 2-1, peach 2-0, falco 2-0, losing to a falcon 1-2. 3 way tie puts me as 1st seed

In bracket I beat Wife (fox), then Dope (falco), then I lost to BigD (falcon), beat Trail (ice climbers), d-mac (fox), rock crock (ganon), mac d (peach), lost to Kels (fox).

EPsilon I disagree, I think falcon is easily one of the worst matchups for zelda, but maybe I am bad at it.

This idea hasn't been tested enough, but Since Nayru's Love makes her invincible from frames 4-11, you could do that after his dthrow to let Falcon pass through you and then the hitbox will hit him after he passes through you.

LOL at this, if it actually works that is hilarious. how many frames does the airdodge take to go invincible? the problem with this vs the airdodge is that the airdodge lets you move back first which buys you a tiny bit of time.

-Falcon players don't dash dance camp against Zelda. I don't know their real reasoning. Maybe their impatient to hit her? Maybe they underestimate her? I've never asked one why.

sounds to me like your opponents are doing that matchup all wrong. falcon can bait zelda 10 times better than zelda can bait him, which wins him the matchup singlehandedly (I would say they punish eachother about the same)

 

[TheManaLord]

falcon is one of the hardest for zelda i agree. if you play a top level falcon you have 0 chance. his uair is literally too good and he has many ways to get you up there

 

[EPsilon933]

sounds to me like your opponents are doing that matchup all wrong. falcon can bait zelda 10 times better than zelda can bait him, which wins him the matchup singlehandedly (I would say they punish eachother about the same)

Maybe Falcons in MD/VA don't dash dance camp, or at least don't try to camp a Zelda? I know in theory Falcon ***** Zelda, but when you factor in the player, the player might not dash dance or camp for I don't know what reason. I've only played MD/VA Falcons so I don't know if this is like a MD/VA Falcon thing.

Except ThumbsWayUp. Somehow I've yet to play him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Thumbs dash dance camps harder than any Falcon in the world.

 

[Winston]

Which MD/VA falcon players are you talking about? G-reg? Wenbo? If it's a player worse than Wenbo I don't think it'd be accurate to form matchup opinions based on playing them.

 

[AXE 09]

Hey guys. Just dropping in to say COSMO *****!!!!!! XD

I watched you a little bit on the live stream for POE3 and I was sooooooo impressed lol. PLEASE keep playing zelda. You're an inspiration

 

[V3ctorMan]

OMG, Like Axe dropping by giving props to COSMO, good sh** on the livestream! you ****!! Keep it up, I want Vids... OMG low Tiers!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've been playing several good Falcons, including Chillindude, G-Regulate, and Boss. I think what makes fighting Falcon easy is fighting the player of Falcon.

They're doing it wrong. Which isn't really uncommon for Falcon players.

 

[Deleted member]

good **** cosmo, mad props.

I consider Zelda vs Fox/Falcon/Sheik unwinnable. Any match after those isn't nearly as bad.

 

[Cosmo!]

here's my thoughts on matchups right now (not ordered within the groups)

2:8
fox, falcon, sheik

3:7
marth, falco, jiggs

4:6
peach, ganon, pikachu

5:5
doc, samus, ic

i have not played other matchups enough to formulate a real opinion

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Sheik doesn't DI your U-throw at low percent it combos to Nair.

If she DIs it behind you, it combos to kick.

If she DIs in front of you, I don't remember if it combos or not. I think it might combo to U-tilt at like 0 but I don't remember.

Sheik is hard to grab, though, so this probably doesn't matter.

 

[Deleted member]

here's my thoughts on matchups right now (not ordered within the groups)

2:8
fox, falcon, sheik

3:7
marth, falco, jiggs

4:6
peach, ganon, pikachu

5:5
doc, samus, ic

i have not played other matchups enough to formulate a real opinion

I think Zelda beats doc samus and ICs outright. I'd probably put fox falcon sheik as 0:10 or 1:9. jiggs is probably also 5:5, she's not that hard to fight at all. You just have to block really well.

 

[Cosmo!]

does anybody know what frame dtilt hitbox comes out on?

i think knowing when to do kick -> dsmash vs kick -> dtilt on a shield is the next step I need to add to my game. I've been using dsmash almost exclusively after a kick on their shield, because it is so fast and can interrupt shieldgrabs and OoS attacks in many cases. the problem is if they simply keep shielding, dsmash will not poke, so dtilt is the key here.

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-tilt = frame 5.

 

[Cosmo!]

perfect. this makes me ask the question: when would dsmash be better than dtilt during shieldpressure? have I been using the wrong move all this time?

i suppose dsmash will hit jumps a lot more often than dtilt and might be better as an attack at both very low and very high %s

(edit: reason being because I figure at mid%, dtilt will do those really really wacky stun combos which i still have yet to get used to and utilize properly)

 

[ChivalRuse]

In this video, not 100% sure, but dtilt looks like it has a tad bit more range than dsmash. In other words, if it does in fact have more range, you can space it on shield from farther away, leaving you more or less safe. Dtilt's SAF is frame 30, while Dsmash's is 32. Also, if you do happen to get a shield stab with dtilt/interrupt a jump or grab, it usually combos into whatever you want it to (including dsmash).

 

[TheLake]

HOLY **** COSMO!

HAARD HOMO FOR YOU BOY

Beating trail? sooo good

did big d go falcon on you both games?

and d tilt raaapes

sheik is impossible

falcon can make you look like a joke

and fox is a *****

 

[V3ctorMan]

Man, i'm sooo sad, I think the Yoshi boards is the 2nd most dead board(s) out there right now... Bowser right now leading the way... *sniffle*... Nobody can like.. see all the hard work I'm trying *sigh*... If some of you Zelda's play Yoshi, I'll play Zelda..

Pinky promise! <33

 

[GKInfinity]

Yeah I'm impressed that you beat trail too cosmo. Do you know which of your sets were recorded? I'm pretty sure some Poe3 vids are up already but I haven't checked any of them

 

[TheLake]

Ill play yoshi

and ****!

RAAAPE!