the secret zelda strats discussionzone

[Cosmo!]

pools were recorded, and my sets w/ macd and kels. no trail set :S

the trail set was me kicking nana off the stage immediately, then spending 2 min each time trying to kill trail's popo which was really hard actually it was a close set.

bigd went all falcon

 

[Zone]

Man, i'm sooo sad, I think the Yoshi boards is the 2nd most dead board(s) out there right now... Bowser right now leading the way... *sniffle*... Nobody can like.. see all the hard work I'm trying *sigh*... If some of you Zelda's play Yoshi, I'll play Zelda..

Pinky promise! <33

I've been practicing yoshi ;D

 

[V3ctorMan]

Wooooooooooot I love you Zone... Yoshi's the business! >>, hehe.. oh, and uhhh. yeah zelda's cool too ^^

 

[Cosmo!]

i played an hour of zelda vs jiggs with my roommate. I still don't quite understand umbreon's 5-5 rating here... I've been trying numerous strategies and they all have had only mild success.

dtilt -> utilt kills at like 90% though which is awesome, i can generally find an opening for this once a match or more.

i eventually resorted to sh double kick spam which was probably one of the most effective strategies. as long as you are slightly retreating with this its very very safe (until you run out of stage room). He would try to jump over the wall of kicks and sometimes I would fullhop double jump kick and catch him out of it.

because jiggs shield protects her feet, I found that jabbing her shield is actually probably one of the best shield pressure tactics against her (dtilt and dsmash both fail here), either that or simply waiting for a roll or a jump. if you get a shielded jab from a distance I think you are safe.

jab(blocked) -> dsmash and jab(hit) -> dash attack seem legit

let's discuss more about the jiggs matchup.

 

[Zone]

Wooooooooooot I love you Zone... Yoshi's the business! >>, hehe.. oh, and uhhh. yeah zelda's cool too ^^

Don't need to lie. Yoshi is way more boss at movement. But it's really hard for me to NOT shield lol. considering a big part of Zelda's game is shield play.

Yoshi has a scary approach too, I mean he can parry, his double jump is a mid air crouch cancel, and yoshis's aerials lead into alot of combos if landed in the right scenario. My marth friend is having problems keeping me out of his space lol.

Sorry Cosmo,

My ANYTHING vs jiggs knowledge is pretty low. All I do is try to out space, and camp my butt off. I sometimes use Up+B if jiggs is close enough to me, when they start cornering me. To get out from being forced to somewhat approach. Also as easy as shielding a B-air, into Up+B out of shield to get away. Assuming she's going to DI away from you again. If she chose to b-air, into l-cancel F-smash, Well I can't say doing a up+B is a good idea lol. So gotta be more creative than only that, or it'll get exploited. But it is something I do occasionally to keep from being cornered. I always upthrow jiggs, or back throw if I'm near the edge. (Assuming I ever get a grab which almost never happens really, unless it's out of a N-air or something at low %, whiff grab = DEAD)

I pretty much do the same thing you do cosmo, I do alot of risky things though. Like If I feel like I'm reading a puff that's trying to do a falling up-air i'll try to uptilt her, but if I'm wrong well... something much worse can happen.

 

[Cosmo!]

best stages against marth? I kept winning matches on FD which I suppose makes sense in a stange way. Dreamland is also really good.

BF/Yoshi/FoD seem bad. no clue @ weird counterpicks. dunno about stadium either, probably bad?

i just got 2nd at tourney and 1st in teams. i busted out my sheik and marth a little bit in singles which worked pretty good against falcon and falco

edit: also, my set with MacD from PoEIII

1, 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxUIRramZgc
3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwyiDWU3j38

 

[aka.carpet003]

i heard the donkey kong 64 stage was a good counterpick against Marth. apparently all the platforms ruin his game and I heard that Marth doesn't kill very well vertically. anyway I wouldn't know diddly squat because I'm really bad at this game! D:

 

[Zone]

i heard the donkey kong 64 stage was a good counterpick against Marth. apparently all the platforms ruin his game and I heard that Marth doesn't kill very well vertically. anyway I wouldn't know diddly squat because I'm really bad at this game! D:

This is probably a good stage for Marth, I mean marth normally killls off the sides or down, and the barrlel "COULD" save you, and since zelda's up+B is very long it'd be easy to land int he barrel if you needed to. Big stage, lots of room.

I'm also not sure, but you might be able to stall out time against marth by up+B'ing/moving around between the top two platforms on the sides back and forth. I should give this a try. I remember seeing a peach do something similar to Rock Crock.

 

[EPsilon933]

The most **** thing to ever happen against Mewtwo happened twice today against Boss's Metwo. I did a toe to uair, then half an hour later I did a triple toe to uair. ****. I will upload videos of the **** tomorrow.

That is all.

 

[Cosmo!]

my set with Kels from PoEIII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDM5DoUCooE

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is Kels CCing those upsmashes?

 

[Cosmo!]

indeed he is

i train with kels all the time, we both know the matchup

despite him CCing thru the upsmash, I still like doing it sometimes.

he banned FD because i 0-death him off of 1 grab usually nowadays

I should have won 2nd match but i did a dair instead of a fair :|

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm a big fan of your Zelda, btw.

 

[Cosmo!]

shield DI punish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iys1krZy7qg

 

[Magus420]

U-smash straight up does not function properly by default on Fox when they're on or very close to the ground, regardless of whether the game version allows them to or they even do DI it down or not. They need to actually DI up and into it for it to be able to work from near the floor, and if it's a non-DIable version they can't even do that to help you.

If they hold downwards and hard shield they end up getting shield poked 1-2 times after the first hit, while if they don't hold down and only shield by itself they will only get hit once. If they start holding down on its own by some point shortly after landing from the first hit (the landing animation itself will duck under the move for a bit but not the whole way) they will get hit once then continue to duck safely underneath the rest of the hits except for the final one, so they can shine you at any point before then.

 

[Cosmo!]

so should I simply stop using usmash against shieldpressure? would it be more viable against taller characters like falco or would it still not be effective?

if fox jumps after his shine, then gets hit while his body is in the middle of it, is that any good? or will he still fall out of it? I'm guessing this where the version difference matters, he could DI in this situation? :S

 

[Magus420]

It works well against Falco (in good game versions at least). It's mostly Fox's unusually high fall acceleration that's to blame along with his landing being low enough to duck underneath until he can act out of it.

If Fox jumps after shine and you catch him at least a decent amount off the ground the move is able to keep him in on its own pretty well. If it's a DIable version though they could most likely still escape if they hold outwards.

 

[nekokatsu]

Congrats Cosmo! i have a doubt wich version have a non DIable UP smash or putting the damage on 1.1 will do the trick? xD

Zelda vs fox... its like dash dance and hope to get a toe xD...

PD: i love the way u roll a grab... i still cant copy that strat xD

 

[TheLake]

!!!!

YOU TOOK KELS TO CRUISE!!!

Favorite zelda <3

Its official

I like it more than mows dtilts <3

 

[BigD!!!]

cosmo im going to practice falcon vs sheik, a matchup i gave up on a while back, just to beat you

then go falco on my cp's just so i can beat your zelda with him some more

your marth beat me way too bad, i'm avoiding that at all costs from now on

 

[Cosmo!]

lol ya I was surprised my day 1 sheik beat you

 

[nekokatsu]

Cosmo what u do Z vs marth and Z vs sheik...
Z vs fox its obviusly almost unwinnable xD...

 

[GKInfinity]

I'm obviously not cosmo and can't provide advice like he does, but I'll throw out my very general advice anyway.

Against sheik - spam kicks a lot (as in, more than normal). Zelda can't do much against sheik. It's a really hard matchup.

Against marth - bait attacks and punish with kicks. That's all I can suggest lol

 

[Cosmo!]

Sheik — if its somebody who doesnt main sheik, COUNTERPICKING sheik against you, transform and chaingrab them to death. get good at sheik vs sheik. If it's somebody who is actually good at sheik dittos or mains sheik and knows what to expect, then I stay zelda. I lost 1-2 against Drephen in Zelda vs Sheik, I think I could have had it but my biggest mistake was when I got a grab at the ledge, I would do a dthrow hoping for bad DI for a free kick. against high level sheik, just backthrow at the ledge every time. If sheik has to upB to the stage (cause you are grabbing the ledge), you can get another backthrow. you can kick her during her landing lag from her upB to get a kill if she's at high%. beyond that, I really don't have much advice against sheik

Marth — take him to dreamland. marth vs zelda is like marth vs samus, marth needs to keep his perfect spacing the entire match. Marth, if played perfectly, beats Zelda. so you have to force mistakes and be patient. marth has no good aerial kill move so if you can recover to the top platform, do it. lightshield after you teleport, and DI his throws down or towards the ledge. unless he hits a fsmash tipper to get an early kill, you should be living to like 150% every stock. if the marth is good, he will use a lot of grabs. The very best place you can be in this matchup, his behind him while he is shielding. from here he has awful options and you can react or follow what he does and punish it. if he is desperate for kills, he will do a lot of utilts. be aware of his kill options and avoid them. you can gimp marth at like 20% if he doesn't sweetspot, by doing CC dsmash. I'll play with CC dtilt as well and see if I can make anything out of it. I would imagine cc dtilt to dsmash could hit low and be even more effective, but I haven't tried it.

Fox — move fast, get good at perfect WDing so you can maneuver fast enough to get away from bairs and space yourself better against things. you must understand his shieldpressure game completely. If you do, you will realize when the best times to bair or fair are, out of shield. If you get to high% he might get desperate and start doing dash -> upsmash. this is a good thing, shield it and punish with a kick. If he is recovering and is clearly going to pass above the ledge, stand a bit away from the ledge and dsmash him (the hitbox goes pretty high up). Good options from the ledge are ledgehop nair, ledgehop fair, waveland to shield. if you get a grab, chainthrow if there's no platform above you, upthrow to kick once he hits 60% or higher. low% upthrow to nair is what I do when there is a platform above me.. I'm not sure what good options there are when there's a platform there. if he grabs you, and you aren't near the ledge, he will do either upthrow or downthrow. DI both of these throws behind him, tech the dthrow and double jump out of the uthrow. never let fox get an easy kill on you

 

[nekokatsu]

great!, thks Cosmo, ill go to a torney next week, ill put those things in practice, i saw a video of u practicing Shield DI against fox, how u do sheild DI, when ur getting attacked doing a tilt where u wanna go, or smashing the stick? (that doesnt make u roll?).
and another Q, u grab a lot, any tips, how... cuz when i started maining Zelda again, it was a rule for me, not grabbing at all, cuz u know if press grab, and any top tier, saw that zelda is going for a grab, he could easily press Z and grab U!!!! thats the most awful part of being Zelda... xD sometimes i trow a grab and they get into the grab xD, i dont know if the times u grab are just luck, like my grabs, cuz grabbing OoS seems almost imposible cuz L-cancel exist not for our benefit xD

 

[Cosmo!]

if you smash the stick towards them while the shield is in hitlag, you will move in your shield without rolling.

grab only when you think they will shield (afraid of kick). shieldgrab is usually bad but not ALWAYS

 

[Zone]

a couple other good times to grab man are say, you wait patiently in a shield, during pressure. If you happen to seem them buffer a spot dodge after a move as a buffer, if you're close enough by reaction you can make Zelda's grab work just as the spot dodge ends by grabbing mid spot dodge on purpose. This takes quite a bit of conditioning until you're able to pull it off. Cuz if you mess up practicing it, you'll get disheartened to want to keep working at it.

Also grabbing after dash attack on falcon/fox/falco around 30% if they don't DI will usually guarantee you a free grab.

also can grab out of forward-tilt(Depends on how you aim it and how they DI)



But yeah most of your grabs will come from conditioning your opponent to shield more. Like I'll dash dance camp a marth and dash attack him between an approaching f-air. Next time He'll be more wary, and perhaps shield after he lands his f-air. then this is the time you need to call out a grab choice.

Blah you could go over options all day man. Cuz there are counters for everything.

like if you start going for the grab in between attacks, marth will start throwing out a grab or jab fast attack equivalent, where in turn now you need to perhaps run at him and crouch cancel his jab into a down-smash.

Remember to think about what your opponent might think before it happens.

I've gotten very good at placing my strategies and moves far in advance that sometimes when I play falco/falcon I feel like I'm not moving fast because my brain is thinking faster than I can act. but when I watch a video of myself. I'm like "Wow I was moving that fast?"

 

[nekokatsu]

thks!, Zone we need more videos of you!!!, if i pass to the semis, theyll tape me, till now, i havent gone that far xDDD, but i will!

 

[GKInfinity]

I'm going all zelda at a tournament in a week. Wish me luck lol

 

[Zone]

I'm going all zelda at a tournament in a week. Wish me luck lol

GL, here's to hoping you don't run into Falcon/shiek or a really good fox.

btw I'm gonna start going falco for falcon/shiek/Fox. If I fear a counterpick on Zelda I'll just switch to falco round 2.

 

[Cosmo!]

GL, here's to hoping you don't run into Falcon/shiek or a really good fox.

these are my trouble matchups as well. good falcon, good sheik, and really good fox. I want to eliminate all my secondaries except sheik so I always win in counterpick situations. sadly this still gives me no answer to fox except to get my zelda better.

I believe zelda vs fox is unwinnable on 2 stages, DL64 and KJ64

 

[GKInfinity]

GL, here's to hoping you don't run into Falcon/shiek or a really good fox.

btw I'm gonna start going falco for falcon/shiek/Fox. If I fear a counterpick on Zelda I'll just switch to falco round 2.

Yeah, normally I'd do the same thing (except I'd use puff) but for the tourney tmw I'm just gonna see how much damage I can do using solely zelda (no sheik cop outs either lol)

I agree with cosmo though. In general, the larger the stage the harder it is for zelda to win against fox. There's laser camping for one thing, but zelda also relies on getting fox off stage and then keeping off/getting dsmash or kick gimps. She doesn't get kills off the top almost ever; 99% of the time it's off the sides. So on stages that are small like yoshi's, 1 or 2 kicks will probably get fox offstage regardless of where he is. After that, it's just edgeguarding. But on larger stages, it's harder to capitalize on your occasional hits. He'll just get away and laser camp you some more. At least, that's (generally speaking) how I view it.

 

[Zone]

these are my trouble matchups as well. good falcon, good sheik, and really good fox. I want to eliminate all my secondaries except sheik so I always win in counterpick situations. sadly this still gives me no answer to fox except to get my zelda better.

I believe zelda vs fox is unwinnable on 2 stages, DL64 and KJ64

Yeah, It does feel alot more manage-able when you're on Yoshi's story or Fountain of Dreams. Against Fox I mean.

I still have no clue what stage I like against Falcon. but I like Fountain of Dreams against shiek.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like Yoshi's is a really good Zelda stage. Kicks HURT there.

 

[Zone]

Yeah, normally I'd do the same thing (except I'd use puff) but for the tourney tmw I'm just gonna see how much damage I can do using solely zelda (no sheik cop outs either lol)

I agree with cosmo though. In general, the larger the stage the harder it is for zelda to win against fox. There's laser camping for one thing, but zelda also relies on getting fox off stage and then keeping off/getting dsmash or kick gimps. She doesn't get kills off the top almost ever; 99% of the time it's off the sides. So on stages that are small like yoshi's, 1 or 2 kicks will probably get fox offstage regardless of where he is. After that, it's just edgeguarding. But on larger stages, it's harder to capitalize on your occasional hits. He'll just get away and laser camp you some more. At least, that's (generally speaking) how I view it.

Yes I played a match where a fox was doing real good, when he camped me with lasers and baited. he got lazy or bored of camping and started approaching then I started the ****.

but yeah if you're going to go Zelda, you might as well go all Zelda haha, I mean I got Falco, My falco/Marth/Falcon/Fox would probably outplace my Zelda if I chose 1-2 to play for the tournament. I can't play them all, If I try I get mad inconsistent with all my characters, so It's best I stick to 1, or at most 2 for the tourney.

But yeah man if you say you're going Zelda stay true to the word otherwise your test to see how far you get is all for nothing.

Also, I made it out of Pools at CEO with Zelda, seeding second against Tope I was 2-0 on everyone except Tope who 2-0'd me. hence... a shiek. Then I was ment to fight like Colbol I think round 1, But Plank said something about the bracket was messed up after I told plank I made it out of pools with Zelda... then suddenly I'm round 1 vs Plank lol. I know this sounds crazy, but I woulda preferred colbol's fox over Planks Shiek. Atleast I can HARD punish a fox for a mistake, when shiek makes a mistake most I get is 2-3 hits, unless I get a really nice situational combo of something more like 4-5. Basically I think shiek is harder for the sheer fact she doesn't get punished as hard as fox does. and they are both equally gay to land a hit on.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox is broken because he can choose when to attack. Of course, against Zelda, a lot of characters have this advantage, but many of them choose not to use it. If Sheik is the same then yes you're in for a rough match. I think I have some old crappy videos of my Zelda fighting Planks Sheik in teams and I didn't do all that hot either so I feel for you.

If you think you'll perform better with another character, you should just use that character. There's no point entering a tournament to see how well you do only to handicap yourself in the bracket. I played Fox for the longest time over Zelda even though I have a better record as Zelda simply because some of her matches suck too badly. If you have a decent Falco I wouldn't play Zelda against Foxes lol

 

[nekokatsu]

guys, i got a torney and it went bad... but my zelda improved a lot, and after de torney i win a money match, to a good marth, and i win with 2 stocks, the 2 rounds!, so my zelda got compliments =), the guy who sent to loosers, was a link, it was a close match, but i didnt new what to do... he caught me in the B-air of link, and i didnt now where to DI, somebody, could tell what to do, in a Link vs Zelda match??? besides of waiting the up-B and Oos kick xD...

vs marth, is totally winnable, u have to wait for the F smash, and not get grabbed xD, and of course kick him in between the F air... xD

 

[GKInfinity]

I'm MMing a link tmw after a tourney actually. I sort of know the matchup. Just play really patient. Nayrus projectiles if you're at a safe distance where he can't take advantage of your ending lag. A lot of his attacks have lag as well though, so watch for grabs, uair/dair, ect and space kicks. Link isn't that fast so he can't overwhelm zelda like most of the high tier characters can, so the matchup isn't that bad. Idk, it's not a matchup I play all that much either though. I'll see what I can learn from playing him tmw and give you some more advice later

 

[Zone]

guys, i got a torney and it went bad... but my zelda improved a lot, and after de torney i win a money match, to a good marth, and i win with 2 stocks, the 2 rounds!, so my zelda got compliments =), the guy who sent to loosers, was a link, it was a close match, but i didnt new what to do... he caught me in the B-air of link, and i didnt now where to DI, somebody, could tell what to do, in a Link vs Zelda match??? besides of waiting the up-B and Oos kick xD...

vs marth, is totally winnable, u have to wait for the F smash, and not get grabbed xD, and of course kick him in between the F air... xD

don't think your safe just because you spaced yourself on his shield. link can shield grab you from far away, remember that.

I wouldn't nayru's love his projectiles even if you are far away, but that's only because I'm pretty good at powershielding, and it's far less punishable. I'd suggest wavelanding and getting a platform stage to get around his projectile game. he's got a good game above you if he's got a bomb. So don't throw out an attack when he's above you when he's got a bomb blindlessly. Unless you're sure it's going to hit. You should always get a free toe if you shield his up+B. you can jump out of shield after the first hit and don't need to wait for it to finish.

The distance from link you want to be at is roughtly where marth would want to be. Close enough he'd be scared to pull out a bomb, but far away enough he can't get you easily while you are retreat footing/dashdacing around. Link is alot like zelda in the sense their moves come out fast but end slow. However link can chain his attacks together better than Zelda can. Don't be intimidated by projectile spam and start rushing him. He wants you to do that, you need to stay patient in that marth range I spoke of earlier. Just wait for a mistake while throwing up shields. maybe even try to proc his grab and spot dodge in place while in shield. and get yourself a free kick. I have some really old matches of me vs a link... let me see if I can look at it.

EDIT; after watching that ridiculously old match, I'm pretty sure you can buffer a spot dodge if you suspect a shield grab after you forward smash his shield. Also don't jab his shield... I got shield grabbed almost everytime. Maybe I coulda jumped before it happened or spot dodge... but it looked like he got me. Also... up+B(while he's recovering), you can beat it with a jump nayru's love. apprently from what I understand the hitboxes are slightly closer to the ground if you jump just before you nayru's. So using your invincibility you can knock link out of his Up+B. You can also just hold the edge and down air him out of his up+B, you outrange him from agove. you also outrange him with a kick. Probably best to just kick :D

Fox is broken because he can choose when to attack. Of course, against Zelda, a lot of characters have this advantage, but many of them choose not to use it. If Sheik is the same then yes you're in for a rough match. I think I have some old crappy videos of my Zelda fighting Planks Sheik in teams and I didn't do all that hot either so I feel for you.

If you think you'll perform better with another character, you should just use that character. There's no point entering a tournament to see how well you do only to handicap yourself in the bracket. I played Fox for the longest time over Zelda even though I have a better record as Zelda simply because some of her matches suck too badly. If you have a decent Falco I wouldn't play Zelda against Foxes lol

lol, I know I just sometimes Feel like I can get lucky and the fox will approach me relentlessly if I don't know who he is, and I can punish him hard for throwing out moves alot. But yeah, if they are willing to play correctly, I should just play falco. Although my falco is not on par with lambchops and dr.peepee... yet :D, but against a falcon/shiek/fox my falco would definitely preform alot better than my Zelda.

My plank vs zelda match wasn't too rough. I don't remember fully but I think they were both 1 stocks, low %. first one might've been two stock. but yeah if I can't even win on my counterpick as Zelda vs Shiek, bleh. I shoulda went Falco on plank, and ignored my word to go all Zelda.

Tope played against me alot better I think he 3 stocked me and 2 stocked me in pools.

 

[Deleted member]

from experience I can tell you that plank is a lot scarier to fight against as zelda when he's teaming with PC chris, and PC feels like doing 1000% and gets 6 KOs per match lmao.