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the secret zelda strats discussionzone

Zone

Zone

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Dark Hart said:
You press Up on the Analog and CStick at the same time while in your shield, it's not technical at all.
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lol I use the side of my index finger on X, and then use Up C-stick to upsmash out of shield.

I know I'm weird, But I'm way more consistent when I do it this way for some reason.
 
ChivalRuse

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Doesn't the time it takes to reposition your hand make it not worth it? You should really JC upsmashes with up.

Edit: Although, I guess, if you were used to it, you could do it pretty fast still.
 
Zone

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ChivalRuse said:
Doesn't the time it takes to reposition your hand make it not worth it? You should really JC upsmashes with up.
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Nah I can do it fast enough. My index just slides down form Z and taps X. It's not far at all.

(Hence why I said the side of my index finger)

I'm not repositioning my hand. I'm just curling my index finger, and laying it on top of X.
 
Zone

Zone

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ChivalRuse said:
I see. That's an interesting method to say the least. :dizzy:
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I use to use Up with the joystick. But this way felt more comfortable, therefore I feel like it's more consistent. Only time I use Joystick to jump is for SHDL with fox, and to back-air out of shine. Or to jump cancel a run into a upsmash.

EDIT: I use the same Tactic for upsmash out of shield with Zelda as I do for Fox's Shine into upsmash. When I use joystick for the upsmash out of shield. I tend to up-air occasionally.
 
EPsilon933

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Captain Falcon is so easy and I'm not shure why.

Zelda can combo Captain Falcon and Captain Falcon is a tall target to toe.
 
EPsilon933

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ChivalRuse said:
Cosmo beat Rockcrock as well, iirc. What do you think of that?
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I haven't played enough Ganondorfs to have a good judgement on the matchup. I'd say it could be maybe like a 70:30 for Ganon. The Punch is just too good at spacing. And it kills her. Zelda can't recover without get hit/killed.
 
GKInfinity

GKInfinity

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ChivalRuse said:
Cosmo beat Macd at POE3.

Discuss.
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I don't think MacD is that great against zelda. I went pretty even with him the last time we played, and although I haven't seen that guy in a few months and I'm sure he's gotten better, I know he hasn't been playing too many zeldas lol. Zelda's his greatest weakness imo; exploit it.

Good **** tho cosmo. :D

@MacD if he name searches and sees this thread: Stop by modesto some time and I'll give you some good zelda experience haha

EPsilon933 said:
I haven't played enough Ganondorfs to have a good judgement on the matchup. I'd say it could be maybe like a 70:30 for Ganon. The Punch is just too good at spacing. And it kills her. Zelda can't recover without get hit/killed.
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I'd say 70:30 or worse for zelda, but then again my zelda's only subpar. I played against bizzaroflame (this guy) in a tournament pretty recently and he makes the MU seem impossible. A ganon who spaces punches well is hella hard to approach or hit with zelda, so honestly I'd just use sheik (that's a hella hard matchup for ganon anyway)
 
Zone

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when I play all of you guys, Imma use a gay character and **** :D. Cuz I know how Zelda plays, and I know how to counter it.

EDIT: I still hold true that Zelda vs Falco is pretty close to even. I would wanna say 58/42 Falco's Favor.
 
Zone

Zone

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EPsilon933 said:
I get ***** by lasers and pillars. Show me your theories.
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You wanna stay at the right distance from Falco So when you power shield his lasers, They are almost guaranteed to hit him. If he's too far away and you powershield them and he starts expecting it, he can jump over them, or even start faking lasers to punish. So you don't want to powershield them everytime. But powershielding it when it matters more, will result in a disoriented Falco, and you can start playing your cards. If you get a non-DI'd dash attack on falco around 30% You should be able to build up to atleast 85% dmg if not his DEATH. If you can knock falco off the edge should be dead as well.

If falco Nair's past you, and you aim your shield at him. Nayru's love out of shield to pwn him when he's behind you. It knocks him on the floor and you can space yourself correctly. Of if spaced right and expecting more stuff after his shine, just kick out of shield If he's a smart falco he'll always Tech away cuz zelda can't chase him well unless he's near an edge. He doesn't always hit the ground after Nayru's though. Especially when he's closer to 0%. If he Down airs you infront of you. Light shield to get pushed back and change to a diagnal aimed up heavy shield so you can go for a kick out of shield or something because now you spaced yourself at the right lenght to easily kick him. of course if he downtilts instead your gonna get pwned. So you gotta try and "feel" based on their style when they will use either option. But it's a dangerous game for falco to play around on your shield if you know how to play with ur shield correctly.

I don't use upsmash much, but I do use it occasionally out of shield, and I'll use it more when I realize they don't smash DI it.

If falco's holding the ledge, and he jumps over with a down air, or w/e Jump back outspace and Kick his attempt. If you're expecting lasers, Which some of them feel safe to do especially if you haven't powershielded too much. Nayru's love not only stops the lasers and reflects them but it's hitbox sets them up PERFECTLY for a gimp.

You can read about gimping fox/falco's (Even though it's fox int he thread they work for falco too) in the Zelda Tip List Thread.

Use platforms to get around lasers as well. If you're expecting him to be somewhat in the middle of the stage in roughly on a 3 platform stage, if he's there, or about to be there by the time your jump and nearly ready to wave land. wave-land at him and kick early if he's in the air lasering, Kick late, or waveland away if he's there shielding. Hell maybe you'll be lucky enough to grab him after you land. But he can react with shine out of shield if you go for the grab. Because Zelda is stupid and puts her arms out before she actually even grabs. Even though she grabs you with magic.

Please remember to mix things up. Although i'm explaining scenarios, You need to be creative based upon the moment. like I wavelanded toward them like i'm about to kick, but I instead jumped back to the edge of the platform, and wavelanded back at them again. for an additional juke of his approach.

If you keep repeating habits they will catch on.

Low percent combos starters I mean like less than 30%. You can choose to build up to 30%+ by a couple kicks, japbs or w/e you hit them with, then start your nice combos. But less than 30% you can't lead into grab easily, so N-air, Forward tilt, and psuedo combo'ing after dash attack. N-air is a little harder because it's hard to know if they will be behind you or infront of you. for you to try to go for the ultimatum and get a grab off. If you land a dash attack early, (the one where you send them off the ground straight up) You can either call a no-tech and downward aim forward tilt them, or jab right then and reset them for a grab. Or you can call a tech in place, and wait for it just a split second. Then grab him once he's finished teching. remember zelda's grab is slow so you gotta do it earlier than someone like marth. They almost always do these top options, but if they end up tech rolling away, it becomes alot harder to punish. You have to off the wall just plain guess which way really really early to catch him if he chooses to roll tech. So sometimes a quick dash dance will scare him to keep him from roll teching if you punished it once already by running after his predicted roll.

Landing a Jab on Falco:

If he's somewhat kind of far away and he's aggressive, He might fly himself at you again. If so then dash attack RIGHT after jab will set him up for a uber nice combo. Or sometimes if you dash attack early and it just pushes him back. At low % it'll just reset the scenario. You are back at the right distance if he choses to approach AGAIN after the dash attack (Not falling to the ground cuz of low%), Jab again to cover yourself. Once this scenario has happened once, next time he'll learn his lesson and probably retreat laser or shield. If he sheilds run at him and grab after jab. He'll sit there expecting a dash attack in his shield and get grabbed. One of the few times I go for grab when it's not a tech chase or a combo, is right here. Careful with the dash attack after jab though. If he shields and you chose dash attack it's punishment time. It's all about reading your opponents options. Dash attack after jab if it lands is VERY rewarding for you, If you pop them up anyways. If he shields it's very rewarding for him. especially if there are platforms and he gets a shine out of shield off. So it's a high risk game. But if you're behind these are even more necessary to catch up. So this is why you'll often see me beat somebody one match, and get 2-3 stocked another. Because I was behind I was going for a nice beating but made the wrong choice and ended up in a long nasty combo cuz of it.

You could play it safe and after jab, run up just a bit and retreat kick. Approaching kick will result in the same effect as dash attack if they shield. However you'll never get a nice long combo and get a lead or catch up if you keep playing it safe. If you make a mistake defending against falco, you get combo'd just as bad. But if you succeed in a OoS option, You don't get big nasty combos unless you land a un smash DI'd upsmash on him. So remember in the reverse situation Falco has the advantage so best to make use of your chance to do high damage to falco.

What I'm saying is falco has alot of opportunities to get you into some nasty combos, he combos you about as well as peach, except I believe your tech roll is like a super wavedash almost. So it's a little tougher for falco to tech chase you than most other people. But his lasers make it tough. But on the flip side your chances of getting big combos on falco are a little harder. So IMO you need to take them when you can. The risk is worth it, because in a reverse situation You won't have the luxury of uber damage out of shield unless it's a up+smash and he chose to not smash+DI it (Completely all in his control) which is never good. You do have more options than those 3 out of shield mind you, If you're far enough away you could wave dash out of shield and F-smash, ect.

Try your best to DI to the sides after Shine, when you get higher% you can kick him before he can reach you sometimes which throws them off alot.

Bah it's too hard to go into extreme Depth, Because there is So much both characters can do.

just know I've fought Shiz and got him to last stock, he 2-0'd me, but it wasn't utter dismay ****. It was like he had roughly near 0% on his last stock which is a good lead, but I consider him WAY WAY better than me.

I've also done very well against Rice's falco, a player who is also clearly better than me.

I've taken matches off ballistic's Falco, Colbol's Falco.

not to mention Taco my main practice partner plays alot of Falco, and he plays the "correct" way against me. With alot more shielding and spot dodges when he expects kicks out of shields and stuff.

Falco's that utterly ***** my Zelda so far are just Eggm. He 3 stocked me when I played him.

I have yet to play any other renowned falco players yet. But whenever it's a random falco main that's not a Huge big name. It's usually pretty bad **** on my part. normally ending in me nearly 2 stocking them everytime.

Uuaa plays fox and teams with hungry often, he switched to falco once, and he went back to fox lol.


One last big factor, You get falco off the edge, He dies. Falco knocks Zelda off the edge, She normally does not die. If she is barely making it into the stage however, It becomes easy for falco to punish if all you can do is sweet spot, and land on the ground after Up+B. which is why I think learning the spacing for edge cancel up+B's is important. If a luigi player can do it with power shot... I'd imagine we can do it with up+B.
 
Zone

Zone

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Double Post:

I could talk theory all day, but it really just comes down to you reading your opponent. and not making mistakes when they count the most. And knowledge behind what your moves do and when in conjunction to your opponents moves and when.

Epsilon tell me why you think FAlcon is easy.
 
Zone

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ChivalRuse said:
Kels CCing Cosmo's upsmashes repeatedly looked pretty frustrating.
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yes, once your opponent learns how to deal with your f-smash and up-smash You lose alot more options. So I almost always play as if I don't have those options, Just so I don't use them out of habit.

I will pop them in once in a while. especially early in a set to see if they are already good at it.

:\ I really wish the smash attacks were just guaranteed. Zelda with a half'd grab lag ATLEAST, and garanteed upsmash/fsmash would be so much more legit.

@Cosmo: Kels is getting alot better against Zelda no?

I'm scared more of my friend Taco who doesn't play fox much, than I am vs most other foxes. He smash DI's almost everytime, and just does everything so right... and gay.... Then again he knows my mind, and Zelda. So maybe I'm not random enough.
 
Zone

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Hmm, none of them Super recent. Just me vs ballistics like nearly a year ago. I always bring recording equipment to tourneys. But I get too lazy to record, I end up just playing non-recorded matches all day.

I do have some very recent of me vs ballistics, I did these just for a combo video. But I guess if you want to see them I could upload them.
 
Magus420

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CCing? Fox doesn't really get lifted into the u-smash from the ground in the first place unless he's directly ontop of Zelda because of his fallspeed and height when he lands. They get hit, land, then the landing animation ducks under the following hits until they can get the shield up. You're not CCing it.

You don't need to be good to DI out of u-smash in DIable versions. You can just hold to a side and most will escape. If it's not DIable they can't do anything and is pretty much guaranteed with a couple exceptions like the Fox one.
 
Zone

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Magus420 said:
CCing? Fox doesn't really get lifted into the u-smash from the ground in the first place unless he's directly ontop of Zelda because of his fallspeed and height when he lands. They get hit, land, then the landing animation ducks under the following hits until they can get the shield up. You're not CCing it.

You don't need to be good to DI out of u-smash in DIable versions. You can just hold to a side and most will escape. If it's not DIable they can't do anything and is pretty much guaranteed with a couple exceptions like the Fox one.
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I should ask my cousins in korea to mail me back v1.0 :(

Also magus I don't mean good at it. I mean some people just don't DI left or right after upsmash >.> and I get it off more than 4-5 times a match. They obviously don't know what they are doing and i'll keep taking advantage of it.

By good I mean, if they already know what to do when I upsmash. I won't bother with it, almost ever.


Big EDIT: Maybe those guys that fall for it 3-5 times. I was playing on v1.0 w/o realizing it >.>


Also Game Ethics wise:

If I were to find a way to re-own a v1.0. Do you think It'd be ok for every tourney match i play I'm like "we gotta play v1.0" Or is that banned? I dunno I never thought about this. I've always played NTSC since I gave my 1.0 away.
 
EPsilon933

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Zone said:
Epsilon tell me why you think FAlcon is easy.
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The problem is I don't know why. Here's my best guesses

-Falcon has the best combination of weight/fallingspeed/size for Zelda to combo him
-DI'ing the dthrow (away, but with ~30 degrees downward) helps you escape a lot of dthrow comboes. Since Zelda is so floaty, you might land on a platform, so you can tech to help further escape hits. This idea hasn't been tested enough, but Since Nayru's Love makes her invincible from frames 4-11, you could do that after his dthrow to let Falcon pass through you and then the hitbox will hit him after he passes through you.
-Falcon players don't dash dance camp against Zelda. I don't know their real reasoning. Maybe their impatient to hit her? Maybe they underestimate her? I've never asked one why.
-If you let Falcon be the one o approach, you can set up many walls to stop him. You can stand there and jab and let Falcon's low priority moves get out prioritized. You can throw in a random fsmash which has (about) as much disjointedness as her jab. You can dash attack at him which also has a disjointed hitbox. Basically, she has more ways of stopping Falcon than just toes. (I think this is the most key reason why Falcon is so easy)
-Zelda has many ways of edgeguarding Falcon, and Falcon's recovery has limited options. Her dash attack can either push opponents straight up or straight forward. If Falcon is sent up, you may be able to full jump toe him. If he's sent straight forward, he may end up too far both horizontally and vertically to reach the stage. Alsow, when you're a little bit away from the edge where there's just enough room to allow you to dash attack, many of the Falcons I play against think they can be safe going for the edge. Not many have ever tried going for the platform above me, so I'm not shure how well getting a toe can work.
-Also, toe combo breakers.

I've been playing several good Falcons, including Chillindude, G-Regulate, and Boss. I think what makes fighting Falcon easy is fighting the player of Falcon. When they don't know Zelda's spacing game, they're so easy to punish, much easier than any other character. Zelda has moves where her hitboxes are disjointed and they stay out there, waiting for a victim to walk into one. With Falcon's very fast mobility, It might be difficult to stop yourself when you need to.

I think typing this response helped me put pieces together.
 
EPsilon933

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Zone said:
Also Game Ethics wise:

If I were to find a way to re-own a v1.0. Do you think It'd be ok for every tourney match i play I'm like "we gotta play v1.0" Or is that banned? I dunno I never thought about this. I've always played NTSC since I gave my 1.0 away.
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Ask them if they're fine with letting you have a buff. If they agree, no one can be at fault for anything.
 
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