DSF also lost to Bwett's Yoshi at WHOBO.
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The SBR's Official Position on Metaknight
- Thread starter M3D
- Start date
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memphischains
Smash hhkj'
Overswarm, you should never speak again
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Squirtle, no. He's got too many hard counters. And "overrated" isn't the right word.
However, you've sort of hit on something. As I've said before, Snake is a good character, but not amazing. He's being pushed up in rankings significantly by the very existence of MK who has a lot of fun doing horrible horrible things to his counters.
Snake thrives in the metagame MK creates.
Squirtle doesn't have the obscene spacing game Wario does.
Don't get me wrong, he's pretty good at it, but you can't count on it to save him, especially from characters like Marth.
Plus long disjointed hitboxes generally **** him.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Squirtle is so much less evolved than the other characters how do you know he won't be that good. Any character that can move like a body length in a frame with a Fair/Bair and edge guard like crazy and combo REALLY REALLY REALLY well with a guaranteed KO at like 120% is a broken character.
otg
Smash Master
m2k, can you please just play melee so we don't have to deal with this bull****? lol.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
metaknight is the metagame thats broken enough for a ban if you ask me
TP
Smash Master
That couldn't have been unintentional. There's just no way.
Anyway, I'm going to either support or oppose banning MK based on the results of Genesis. That tournament will have essentially every top player, so we'll see if MK is broken or not at that point IMO.
Snake has plenty of bad matchups, which are surpressed by the fact that Metaknight kills them all off.
Don't Dedede, Falco, Pikachu, Wario, and Olimar all have the advantage on him? Dedede has his grabs, Falco has his camp game and grabs, Pikachu has his camp game and grabs (especially with the new buffered CG that can do like 70%), Olimar can force Snake to approach, and Wario can gimp him and outspace him.
Marth actually seems like he'd have the least amount of bad matchups. I can't even think of any outside of Snake?
Snake does well because he has a winnable (NOT advantaged) matchup vs MK that doesn't rely on the MK not knowing how to fight him. If MK wasn't here...Snake's counters would develop, and their counters would develop.
EDIT: M2K, I admit I don't know that much about squirtle. What's his guaranteed KO at 120%?
Don't Dedede, Falco, Pikachu, Wario, and Olimar all have the advantage on him? Dedede has his grabs, Falco has his camp game and grabs, Pikachu has his camp game and grabs (especially with the new buffered CG that can do like 70%), Olimar can force Snake to approach, and Wario can gimp him and outspace him.
Marth actually seems like he'd have the least amount of bad matchups. I can't even think of any outside of Snake?
Snake does well because he has a winnable (NOT advantaged) matchup vs MK that doesn't rely on the MK not knowing how to fight him. If MK wasn't here...Snake's counters would develop, and their counters would develop.
EDIT: M2K, I admit I don't know that much about squirtle. What's his guaranteed KO at 120%?
I actually agree. Think of Pikachu in a MK-less world. He has the advantage on Snake, Falco, Dedede...that's a really important chunk of the top tier and would probably make him high tier in itself.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Obviously because he's not a Wartortle yet.
Anyway, I do agree that Squirtle is an amazing character. If anything, he's hindered by the other two pokemon. Even fatigued, Squirtle is still excellent with his speed, range, and priority.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
Wario gets ***** by Snake's grab releases. Snake can grab release to nair, uptilt, and I think bair. It's even, or maybe even in Snake's favor.
As for those other matchups, they're closer than everyone thinks. I'd say Snake's worst matchup is against DDD, 60-40, or maybe 55-45. All those others you named are even or 55-45 in their favor. Snake has all the tools he needs to keep it close against them.
DDD is a clear counter to Marth. Roy R vs. DSF wasn't pretty to watch
I do agree with this. DDD would certainly be one to look out for considering MK will be out of the picture. As for Falco, Pika and Olimar...they're just underplayed. Not because MK beats them, just because no-one plays them well. Well, Falco isn't as underplayed as the latter two, but he really hasn't been doing much lately at the top of tournament results. He's dropped considerably in the character rankings.
Agreed. Pikachu would definitely go higher in the tier list. Hell, he should be higher right now even with MK not banned.
Imagine the **** Anther would lay on us with MK out of the picture
DSF's always had a problem with Wario's- first Futile, then FICTION beat his Snake.
Have you ever fought either? Good luck grabbing them. I know, I've tried >_<
Better than MK, who doesn't even have one of those xD
However...Olimar, Ice Climbers, Pit (really 0.o), Falco, and Pikachu all function as Dedede counters.
Ohhh right. Still...he has the least amount of bad matchups of anyone in the top tier. (though tons of evens)DDD is a clear counter to Marth. Roy R vs. DSF wasn't pretty to watch
DEHF dominates SoCal pretty well though. But I agree that there are very few good Falcos.
*shivers*Imagine the **** Anther would lay on us with MK out of the picture
One of the worst problems with MK is what he does to the mid tier players. See...if you main a mid tier that gets ***** by a certain high tier, you just learn a secondary to deal with it. What happens if you're a mid tier that gets demolished by MK?
...you're screwed. You can't pick up anyone with an advantaged matchup- heck, you can argue you can't even find an EVEN matchup (who's even? Snake's not. Diddy's not. Wario maybe? :/ ). Short of picking up MK yourself (the logical choice), you're stuck.
Thus, you pick up MK to beat MK, and switch to MK. I've seen this happen many, many times, and have considered it myself.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Wonderful reminder as to why stating attributes in a vacuum means little, here's another: 0-deaths the entire cast!
Sure, he's got some nice attributes, but he has too many vulnerabilities to actually function well, and routinely finds it incredibly difficult to actually get inside to extercise those options.
Pretty much anyone with long disjointed hitboxes just never lets him get inside.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Marth ***** Squirtle
Just move in and out with Fairs with the occasional jab, if the Squirtle messes up they're not coming back unless they CP like...NoFair or Brinstar.
Just move in and out with Fairs with the occasional jab, if the Squirtle messes up they're not coming back unless they CP like...NoFair or Brinstar.
G&W will do better, especially as a Falco counter, but Snake and Marth still hurt him.
I dunno, he's good, top three, but definitely not Snake. His matchups aren't as overwhelmingly good as most people think; most of the "65-35" matchups on the boards can be overcome with smart play and the ability to Smash DI
Bair is a bad move. Nair is great xD
I think we'd have a Snake/Falco/Marth/G&W/Dedede top tier, personally, with Diddy, Wario, ROB, and maybe Pikachu following closely.
If anyone, I think ROB benefits most from a MK-less metagame. He has a 70-30 against MK and G&W from my understanding, and ROB mains can't counterpick MK so they usually end up switching to MK- I know several ROBs this happened to.
Take out MK, and people can second Snake/Diddy/Marth for G&W and ROB can take out Snake...the ROBs will come back.
Binx
Smash Master
LOL, again?
Just joshing, its a fun game, been playing it quite a bit lately, MK isn't so much better that he ruins the game, so he doesn't need to be banned, as far as everyone picking up MK for the ditto, thats just dumb cause a main would know the spacing better than you, it doesn't make sense to pick him up unless your doing it just cause you like him.
I'll agree he is easily the best and has no real negative matches however.
Rogue Pit
Smash Lord
What The **** Why Would You Ban Him
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Maybe you should read the past several pages...
There's a easy reason why people pick up MK over their main:
The closest matchup to even for him currently is believed to be a MK ditto since that is completely even until you factor in player skill. Even Wario or Diddy or Snake vs MK is not even before player skill, although they are close. Most people would rather lose a MK ditto, where the odds are completely even and it is player skill, instead of having some BS 65:35 or worse matchup like Rob mains and HOPING the MK player doesn't know the matchup and climbing a steep hill from the very beginning just from character choice.
Another reason people pick up MK is that he takes care of everyone's weaknesses. If you play Dedede and you are tired of another MK player or a Pikachu player or a main that counters him, then why not go MK since the matchup is easier? The new MK might not know the matchup at first, but hey even Dojo and M2K when they started out didn't understand every matchup from the get go. People are willing to lose a few with MK and eventually learn him to the point where other people would be wise to just go for a Ditto. If you play ROB and G&W's are annoying you, then pick up MK and now the G&W has the same problem you do, except now his best choice is to go for a ditto or pray that you don't understand another matchup.
If MK has no bad matchups and is broken in your eyes, then why not get rid of him? If every other character has a counter or two that is not also MK (Snake has Dedede and Wario at the very least, Marth has Dedede and Snake, Dedede has a **** load of characters that can gay him lol, etc) then why not get rid of him? I don't understand why some people believe in full that he is broken, over powered, or over the top in some form, yet apparently he's not broken ENOUGH for them. Like, SURELY if he had a 60:40 or better with every character in the game, then he would need to go, but NO we the community think he has some 55:45's so he fails the Ban Test.
I can respect someone's view point if they believe that MK is not broken at all, many people have that opinion and I respect that, but when people believe he is broken but not broken enough for a ban, it kinda ticks me off.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
of course you would you use ROB. Still doesn't make it a fair thing to do though. It completely screws all the hours dedicated people like me/dojo put into our character (like 1000 hours or so)
CO18
Smash Hero
Solution: Ban mk except allow m2k and dojo to use them lawl
meepxzero
Smash Master
i hope hes banned b4 my infinites. infinites are needed to keep up with mks style of play. And yah i agree with m2k i probably spent that much time perfecting the infinite.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
I play drums. Lawl.
Honestly, it's really nice hearing about people that already see a healthy metagame without MK, atleast in singles. Everyone has a counter and theres almost always a character that can cover that characters bad matchups. DMG really described a crazy healthy metagame. I wonder if people will bring back talk of banning MK. I think SBR threw the idea away too soon.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I never did.
Albert.
Smash Master
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Second singer/keyboard?
I don't think his banworthy (yet) but that doesn't mean I don't hate his guts and wish with a fervent passion that he'd achieve that status and be banned.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
If it's the really old one, I have that up for motivation to get better. That's when I first picked it up, and I decided to put it up to constantly give myself something to look at and say "I must improve". I ahve another youtube account now iwth updated stuff, but it is seek rat.
Although NOJ found it and subscribed, WTF?
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
...I never said you did. I quoted you and responded with "I play drums, lawl." My fault. The second paragraph was replying to Dr Mario Guy.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 8,189
NM sadly has over turned its ban of MK because of Genesis, but post genesis I have to find a new fun main again. :D
Overswarm you have all of NM supporting you.
Which is like nothing.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
You seem like such a smart dude sometimes, but then you disappoint me with such horrible garbage...Praxis said:
Dedede has a slight advantage against Snake, but Snake can camp like a homo and he actually lives to higher percent and does more damage per hit, so it's perfectly winnable.
Falco doesn't have a chaingrab on Snake. Snake simply bans FD and blows himself up to 30% at the start of every stock or just stays on platforms until he's at ~30%. No more chaingrab. Now Falco must diminish kill moves like b-air and u-smash to do damage and even hit Snake and he has to work much harder to win. Snake wins on the ground easily and still maintains an advantage in living despite the ~30% handicap. Snake lives to 140-180% while Falco dies at 95-105% consistently.
Pikachu loses pretty badly without that CG... I don't know much about that match-up, but I'm thinking Snake has a way to stop that CG. Can he blow himself up to half that damage and avoid that CG? If so, it's even or still in his favour.
Wario is really debatable. I'd say it's Snake's second hardest match-up, but not a disadvantage. They just both camp a lot and Wario's fat enough to live forever and fast enough to fight within Snake's range without getting *****. Snake has an easier time scoring kills due to grab release stuff and he has a projectile to force approaches.
Olimar loses to Snake. Snake's f-tilt beats Olimar's grab because he doesn't have super armour on it. Once Snake d-throws Olimar, it's over unless the Snake messes up. Olimar's roll doesn't go anywhere.
Marth loses to MK, Snake, Dedede, R.O.B., and DK.
CO18
Smash Hero
Squirtle beats everyone. That hack should be legal. I want to 2nd squirtle.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
QFT, lmao
Btw:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229925
Look how broken MK is! The highest placing one was basically teh_spamerer Jr. and he got 4th.
The good MK players are "broken" and highly skilled because of how far MK has progressed as a character.
Step it up and you can progress another character! I'm trying with Snake, but I'm just at Mew2King's level. Sorry!
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Independent Pokemon being legal would be the best thing the Brawl Community has ever done
stingers
Smash Obsessed
LMAO Inui you're an idiot
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229419
you post some small *** tourney that mk's didn't **** in instead of posting the HUGE AS **** tourney that happened the same day LMAO
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229419
you post some small *** tourney that mk's didn't **** in instead of posting the HUGE AS **** tourney that happened the same day LMAO
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Yea i havnt been here in a while because i KNOW sbr still isnt smart enough to ban metaknight but i would like to post results of WORLD HOBO(140 players)
the top 13 make me SICK!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229419
1: M2K=meta
2: Dojo=meta
3: DSF=meta/snake/wario
4: Lee Martin=lucario/meta
5: Tyrant=meta
5: Co18=ddd
7: Domo=meta
7: Melee1=ic/meta
9: Infinity=meta
9: RoyR=marth
9: Light=meta/gw
9: Ultimate razer=snake
13: error=Olimar/ic
13: Hylian=gw
13: Dphat=meta/marth
13: Dmg=wario
and this event isnt the ONLY event to ever be dominated by metas.
Something needs to change. The counter pick system does not work as long as meta is allowed(because he cant be counter pciked). In melee, NOTHING was THIS bad.
i hope world hobo has opened sbr's eyes........however i HIGHLY doubt it. They dont do **** no matter how much people ask
the top 13 make me SICK!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229419
1: M2K=meta
2: Dojo=meta
3: DSF=meta/snake/wario
4: Lee Martin=lucario/meta
5: Tyrant=meta
5: Co18=ddd
7: Domo=meta
7: Melee1=ic/meta
9: Infinity=meta
9: RoyR=marth
9: Light=meta/gw
9: Ultimate razer=snake
13: error=Olimar/ic
13: Hylian=gw
13: Dphat=meta/marth
13: Dmg=wario
and this event isnt the ONLY event to ever be dominated by metas.
Something needs to change. The counter pick system does not work as long as meta is allowed(because he cant be counter pciked). In melee, NOTHING was THIS bad.
i hope world hobo has opened sbr's eyes........however i HIGHLY doubt it. They dont do **** no matter how much people ask
bigman40
Smash Master
Yeah....Whobo wasn't even enjoyable watching all the players CP with MK or just pick him outright to not lose.
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