The real reason Japan is better than America

[kailo34ce]

also, im not saying adopt it because of mk, im just saying its a nice side bonus cuz i believe a character shouldn't be considered to be banned before all other possibilities are explored. banning a character is an absolute extreme to me..

just throwing this out there,i dont know much about japanese results because i dotn know where to find them, i only have this apex as a recent documentation to go off of, and it seemed to me like half of the japanese players who had success went mk and they have the limited stage list.

im not sure how this reflects in reality because i dont know japense results but it seems like mk may be dominant(dominant as in the bulk of the highest placing) over there even with the stage list.

this is me speculating

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tuen worded it the best. Let me give you a super short summary:

1. Neutrals allow players to focus on general aspects of the game that are not stage dependent.
2. By doing this players stop worrying about which stage gimmicks to exploit or what to CP and start caring about improving in general.
3. This results in better players with superior spacing, option selects and reads (aka the Japanese).\

It makes sense if you think about it. Any minute not spent as MK trying to shark Olimar on Delfino or timing him him out on RC is time spent (presumably) at actually getting better at the MU in general.

You missed the part where he said that if you learn all of your basics, you can addapt to new gimmicks more easily.

 

[Ruuku]

I think Seibrik trying to argue about levels of interference. He's saying that Brinstar for example, will stop a chain grab for you instead of just making it easier for you to avoid it using your move set. And it will also directly add damage to your opponent's percentage instead of just making it easier you to add it using your move set. Smashville's platform for example, does not do that.

 

[Gea]

But it can also result in a stock gain or loss because of it's positioning. Is it just about the obstacles doing direct % damage? If so, where does PS1, PS2, and Delphino fit into that equation?

I understand the general mindset, I just haven't seen anyone define what draws the lines other than "Japan's looks good to me and they are good players ergo we should... oh yeah also MK doesn't like these stages, but that isn't as important I promise"

 

[8Bitman]

I agree with this, but to an extent. I believe much of their skill comes from dedication and pride.

While Americans only play for money and fooling around.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that seeing as it is a game and people can take it as they will. But for a group of players like the Japanese, they take things like this to a whole new level. I feel we would be just as good if not better because of our population difference, if we played more seriously. It is up to the player. Like it was discovered at APEX, the Japanese do not play for money, they play for pride, and honor.


^^^ READ THIS ^^^ :3

 

[Damix91]

But it can also result in a stock gain or loss because of it's positioning. Is it just about the obstacles doing direct % damage? If so, where does PS1, PS2, and Delphino fit into that equation?

I understand the general mindset, I just haven't seen anyone define what draws the lines other than "Japan's looks good to me and they are good players ergo we should... oh yeah also MK doesn't like these stages, but that isn't as important I promise"

Should be fairly obvious. People want stages more akin to traditional fighters that also don't enhance the more abusive tactics of this game or have hazards, random or not. Most people are willing to accept platforms though. There's no line as its completely subjective but in general:

Lack of stage interference

FD- No stage interference
BF- No stage interference
SV- No stage interference

Transformations

PS1- Transformation encourage stalling because its unsafe to approach on them
PS2- Divergent game mechanics from every other stage. No-one wants a stage that changes how you play that much
Delfino- Walk off edges- enhances chaingrabbing
Castle Siege- Walk off edges- enhances chaingrabbing
Rainbow Cruise- Platform game
Frigate Orpheon- You can't hold on to one side of the edge and the flip is rather game changing at times.

They all also contain stage transformations which are more akin to a platform game than a traditional fighter. As I said its just subjective.

Hazards

Halberd- Hazards
Pictochat- Hazards
Brinstar- Hazards

Then you've got the one conservative people are willing to let slide sometimes.

YI- Shy Guys occasionally block projectiles and extend hitboxes. Also save me platforms.
LC- Stage tilts


Its quite easy to see though how Japan arrived at its stage list and how others would arrive at it too.

 

[Gea]

And yet Japan has at least one of the transformation stages legal. So no, I'm not following entirely with the list you defined.

Edit: The platform on smashville can enhance chaingrabs for several characters as well. FD certainly enhances chaingrabs when compared to most legal stages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ITT: Stage Liberalists vs. Stage Conservatives, round 48612381874694
Tonight's episode: Japanese people bodied Americans at Apex, they must be doing something right. Blame the Stagelists.

Just for you to know, even with 7 more stages than they use to play at, japanese outplayed Americans and didn't even get "stage-gayed" (sorry, it is not the best term, but the most recognizable one).

 

[kailo34ce]

Should be fairly obvious. People want stages more akin to traditional fighters that also don't enhance the more abusive tactics of this game or have hazards, random or not. Most people are willing to accept platforms though. There's no line as its completely subjective but in general:

Lack of stage interference

FD- No stage interference
BF- No stage interference
SV- No stage interference

Transformations

PS1- Transformation encourage stalling because its unsafe to approach on them
PS2- Divergent game mechanics from every other stage. No-one wants a stage that changes how you play that much
Delfino- Walk off edges- enhances chaingrabbing
Castle Siege- Walk off edges- enhances chaingrabbing
Rainbow Cruise- Platform game
Frigate Orpheon- You can't hold on to one side of the edge and the flip is rather game changing at times.

They all also contain stage transformations which are more akin to a platform game than a traditional fighter. As I said its just subjective.

Hazards

Halberd- Hazards
Pictochat- Hazards
Brinstar- Hazards

Then you've got the one conservative people are willing to let slide sometimes.

YI- Shy Guys occasionally block projectiles and extend hitboxes. Also save me platforms.
LC- Stage tilts


Its quite easy to see though how Japan arrived at its stage list and how others would arrive at it too.

then if the japanese are right about being conservative why dont we just take it one step further and make BF the only neutral and make FD(an unblanaced stage) and SV ( a moving stage) the counterpicks, then by the current speculation of the thread we would practice even more "fundamentals" and have even less things to worry about and progress faster than japan (using the logic of the OP of course)

the line can be drawn anywhere and the problem is the foundation of the argument goes directly against "fundamentals" of smash itself

 

[John12346]

Might as well take Smashville off the legal stagelist, since the platform's starting position and the balloon are random(granted, it follows 3 set trajectories, but when it appears and what trajectory it will decide to follow are random)...

 

[Life]

Complex, how do you suggest we prepare for our next encounter with japenese players? What is the best course of action? I don't believe our current practice/tourny trends will be enough.

And here's the rub.

I primarily credit two things for Japan's victory: population density and work ethic. We can't do very much about population density--what we can do is work on getting new players into high-level Brawl. As for work ethic, that's kind of an individual thing, and it's very hard to cultivate it in anyone that isn't your own children.

To be frank, I'm not sure there's a lot we can do with the community as a whole. It won't be North America that beats Japan, it will be an individual North American, you follow? Say Apex 2013 happens and the results are basically the same except, oh IDK, Ally takes first. Do we say "North America won"? Or "Canada won"? Or "Ally won?" Whose ultimate responsibility would such a victory be?

tl;dr The rules aren't the problem, we are.

 

[kailo34ce]

And here's the rub.

I primarily credit two things for Japan's victory: population density and work ethic. We can't do very much about population density--what we can do is work on getting new players into high-level Brawl. As for work ethic, that's kind of an individual thing, and it's very hard to cultivate it in anyone that isn't your own children.

To be frank, I'm not sure there's a lot we can do with the community as a whole. It won't be North America that beats Japan, it will be an individual North American, you follow? Say Apex 2013 happens and the results are basically the same except, oh IDK, Ally takes first. Do we say "North America won"? Or "Canada won"? Or "Ally won?" Whose ultimate responsibility would such a victory be?

tl;dr The rules aren't the problem, we are.

nah dude dont you understand? we only lost because we play on frigate and on frigate you dont use "fundamentals" you just press buttons until the stage flips and kills your enemy 3 times

 

[Ruuku]

And here's the rub.

I primarily credit two things for Japan's victory: population density and work ethic. We can't do very much about population density--what we can do is work on getting new players into high-level Brawl. As for work ethic, that's kind of an individual thing, and it's very hard to cultivate it in anyone that isn't your own children.

To be frank, I'm not sure there's a lot we can do with the community as a whole. It won't be North America that beats Japan, it will be an individual North American, you follow? Say Apex 2013 happens and the results are basically the same except, oh IDK, Ally takes first. Do we say "North America won"? Or "Canada won"? Or "Ally won?" Whose ultimate responsibility would such a victory be?

tl;dr The rules aren't the problem, we are.

Are you implying that there is only "America" when foreigners show up and win????

 

[Dark.Pch]

Complex, how do you suggest we prepare for our next encounter with japenese players? What is the best course of action? I don't believe our current practice/tourny trends will be enough.

- Stop *****cing about match ups on how you can't do this or that or how bad it is.

- Stop *****ing about how certain characters are not tourny playable or how bad they are. You really think this BS is gonna give the character special abilities and make matches better? When you picked up that character, you knew the reward and risk of playing them. So to complain about them is just.....ugh.......stupid.

- Get off the mentality of playing to win. Play to learn. You can't win **** if you don't learn anything. take a hint.

- Stop trying to be like the japanese with stages. They learn their own way. learn your way.

- accept you got outplayed and learn from mistakes. Finding excuses will kill everything and you won't learn, just have that dumb USA pride that seriously needs to die.

- in friendlies with a friend for practice, but yourself in dangerous situations in the match up that you get put in alot intournies and figure out ways around it. This can also go to practice SDI. OoS options with certain attacks, edge guarding. Don't waste time playing friendlies or be at smashfest showing off infront of people thinking you hawt **** and don't wanna lose/get off the TV.

- explore character options, mix and match ****. Do things you would never think of doing, think outside the box. be creative with who you use. Lay off the basic stuff with them we gone seen for yeeeeeeeeeeeeears. it gets old. also boring as hell (which is not really important)

With people doing this often, we will have a better america.

 

[Life]

And here I was expecting to get ignored like usual.

lessthanthreeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

nah man, i've pretty much read like every single post in this thread



/dies

 

[kailo34ce]

nah man, i've pretty much read like every single post in this thread



/dies

if this thread in all honesty was your attempt to help the community grow and etc then i think your heart was in the right place but you kinda jumped the gun

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

to be honest it was to help, but i also drank alot of coffee that morning so i just kinda... went on a rant


a rant i still believe in mind you, but i'm not at all close minded to others P.O.V's

 

[Gea]

to be honest it was to help, but i also drank alot of coffee that morning so i just kinda... went on a rant


a rant i still believe in mind you, but i'm not at all close minded to others P.O.V's

I just think if the stagelist is reduced, it needs to be done:

1. On our own terms. That's why I adamantly ask everyone here for it what their criteria for banning a stage is and advocate going through the stage list instead of just adopting Japan's ruleset. Consistency would be nice.

2. For the right reasons. Nerfing Metaknight shouldn't be one of those reasons. I understand this wasn't your intention, but some of the supporters sure see it as the compromise to keep MK. In fact, if MK remains banned, does it affect the proposed stage list change? If so... eh...

3. Without Apex in our minds. A knee-jerk reaction isn't anyone's solution to getting better at this game. One tournament isn't a good sample size, and like mentioned above, even if the community decides a smaller stagelist would be superior for the game, it should not and does not have to happen under the notion that Japan's list is what made them good players.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i still stand by the fact that any stage with blatent interferance deserves a ban.


weather u think sv is included or not is a debate in itself.

every other stage (asside from bf and fd) have obvious interference/transformation that i believe to hinder competative play

 

[kailo34ce]

seibrik the FL people are blindly loyal to you lol

hey whens the last time you won a tournament with mk/whens the last time u won a tournament without mk.

just curious. you win tourneys right i heard you were good

 

[IhaveSonar]

We seem to have run into the quintessential fact of ANY competitive game, whether it be smash, chess, football, or anything else:

No amount of gimmickry or cutting corners will replace basic skills.

Having more stages in the game is more fun, but promotes cheap tactics and provides shortcuts to winning. Since there is a lot of money on the line at American tournaments, people will naturally go for the money and do whatever they can to win. Oftentimes, winning is simply a matter of picking a good CP stage. Thus, having skill becomes less of a necessity to win in the current American metagame.

And, of course, when more skilled players come along, they will take advantage of this lack of skill and exploit us.

There's nothing wrong with having more stages legal or playing for money, but the natural side effect is the "cheap" metagame we have. We either have to accept it as it is, get more skilled, or force ourselves to get more skilled by adopting the big 3 stages.

 

[Gea]

i still stand by the fact that any stage with blatent interferance deserves a ban.


weather u think sv is included or not is a debate in itself.

every other stage (asside from bf and fd) have obvious interference/transformation that i believe to hinder competative play

Then you want a stage list even smaller than the Japanese use. Which is fine, other players definitely share your opinion on this. Many have for all of the Smash games. I favor a large stage list for other reasons (if it isn't broken, don't ban it, but it's a bit more complex than that obviously), but you have a rule and you definitely seem to want to adhere to that.

However do you feel like the community is ready for such a dramatic shift in stages? Would this new stagelist still require rules such as LGL?

 

[kailo34ce]

No amount of gimmickry or cutting corners will replace basic skills.

ok well u made a decent point but ima just say :

you know the reason why alot of people dont play/like brawl is because its full of gimmicks and a general lack of skill right? (compared to some other "competitive" games

i think if you asked someone who isnt a fan of brawl why they dont like it they wouldnt start naming stages.

this is just from personal experience, i could be wrong

i think IF the game needs an overhaul to get it to basic skills, its not banning the stages, i mean even if japan beat us maybe they have likle madnatory smash classes or eat a special breakfast or something, i know these examples are absurd but i mean you could point out anything for the argument

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i can win tournies in fl with or without mk


im gona be dropping mk from my character list except maybe against ddd if my falco fails or w.e. we'll see.

gona be using mostly wario


and im gona be hosting tournies (that apparently a large % of fl is interested in) adhering to japan like rules.

there will still be an apex similar lgl
all infs. will be banned
and only stages allowed will be the big three

no banning stages, just start on random, and CP to your liking accordingly.


I just hope to see a varying top 5 (character wise) between tournies with rules consisting of these.

i think if theres a large variability in results even with such static rules, it shows potential for the ruleset being "fair" or "balanced"

 

[kailo34ce]

no banning stages, just start on random, and CP to your liking accordingly.

FD makes that scary

 

[Ruuku]

seibrik the FL people are blindly loyal to you lol

This is seriously "starting" to get dumb.

 

[Damix91]

And yet Japan has at least one of the transformation stages legal. So no, I'm not following entirely with the list you defined.

Edit: The platform on smashville can enhance chaingrabs for several characters as well. FD certainly enhances chaingrabs when compared to most legal stages.

Not really understanding you. Japan has FD, SV and BF legal in Numbara and WestSmash, their main tournament series. The other stages were legal for Apex rehearsal tournaments getting ready for going to the US. I think more like D3 chaingrabbing people from anywhere into the blastzones and such. For those stages I also quoted a general dislike and lack of respect people have for transformation stages.

then if the japanese are right about being conservative why dont we just take it one step further and make BF the only neutral and make FD(an unblanaced stage) and SV ( a moving stage) the counterpicks, then by the current speculation of the thread we would practice even more "fundamentals" and have even less things to worry about and progress faster than japan (using the logic of the OP of course)

the line can be drawn anywhere and the problem is the foundation of the argument goes directly against "fundamentals" of smash itself

I didn't state whether Japan were right or wrong, just typed out an obvious train of thought of those who would veer towards the conservative Japanese stagelist. I don't understand your FD comment. Its just a simple flat stage. Doesn't matter who is good or bad. You can't design a stagelist designed on balance, that's silly and assumes a stagnant metagame. You make a stagelist designed to enhance or reduce the mechanics you want at the forefront of your game. I said in the post you quoted it's completely subjective so you're agreeing with me when you said the 'line can be drawn anywhere'.

P.S What exactly are the fundamentals of Smash?

 

[kailo34ce]

This is seriously "starting" to get dumb.

you again lol. rawr

(deleted text)
P.S What exactly are the fundamentals of Smash?

idk man i keep saying a bunch of mouth garbage, that post i think was me using the "pro japan stagelist" logic which i dont even realyl care about

also at ur P.S. question: i knoowwww loooooooool it is why i keep saying "fundamentals" i think they mean spacing and punishing and blocking but either way its just a lame term to use as a reason for absurd things like why japan beat us in doubles even tho they dont play doubles

 

[Dr. Tuen]

i can win tournies in fl with or without mk


im gona be dropping mk from my character list except maybe against ddd if my falco fails or w.e. we'll see.

gona be using mostly wario


and im gona be hosting tournies (that apparently a large % of fl is interested in) adhering to japan like rules.

there will still be an apex similar lgl
all infs. will be banned
and only stages allowed will be the big three

no banning stages, just start on random, and CP to your liking accordingly.


I just hope to see a varying top 5 (character wise) between tournies with rules consisting of these.

i think if theres a large variability in results even with such static rules, it shows potential for the ruleset being "fair" or "balanced"

I don't think infinites are banned in Japan...

 

[Gea]

Not really understanding you. Japan has FD, SV and BF legal in Numbara and WestSmash, their main tournament series.

Ah, the most recent lists posted here and there had 3 CP stages.

 

[-LzR-]

And while you are arguing, the Japanese are still practicing as hard as ever. You will never be as good as them

 

[da K.I.D.]

you full of crap seibrik, youll go back to the bat. they all do.

 

[Tommy_G]

Seibrik played Wario 85% of his matches at Apex, so I guess that means he's full of crap.

Kailo: You are more of a condescending piece of **** for saying: "hey whens the last time you won a tournament with mk/whens the last time u won a tournament without mk" than I was for calling out your completely butchered "English" posts. I didn't even mean to insult you either. I shouldn't need to read something that many times in order to make sense of it because the sentence structure doesn't follow certain rules. Please never post here again as you have clearly proven you have nothing good to say.

 

[kailo34ce]

Seibrik played Wario 85% of his matches at Apex, so I guess that means he's full of crap.

Kailo: You are more of a condescending piece of **** for saying: "hey whens the last time you won a tournament with mk/whens the last time u won a tournament without mk" than I was for calling out your completely butchered "English" posts. I didn't even mean to insult you either. I shouldn't need to read something that many times in order to make sense of it because the sentence structure doesn't follow certain rules. Please never post here again as you have clearly proven you have nothing good to say.

thats weird cuz like 5 other people agreed with me during the argument.

and honestly, i ask seibrik that because i wanted to follow up with " do you think you couldve won the (enter name of tourney he won with mk) even without all the CP stages on?"

because i believe mentioning he is talented enough to win under any condition is valid enough of an agument to continue the current discussion

i heard he was good but i was unsure because florida has esam and other talented players

but if you are just going to come out and insult me for asking him a simple question then ok.

as for my replies to seibrik on this thread (and the posts referring to a player fund for him to come to texas in the houston thread) i believe i have shown seibrik common decency and respect.


and yes my English is not perfect thankyou for reminding me, i would stop posting until i get it perfect like everyone else but to be honest this is my best form of practicing. i overlooked the part of the rules where it said "you must use perfect grammar to post on these forums".

 

[da K.I.D.]

Seibrik played Wario 85% of his matches at Apex, so I guess that means he's full of crap.

thats exactly what it means. because who did he play the other 15%?

also, calling out someone who speaks spanish as a first language on their grammar in english in an attempt to discredit their argument is a douchebag move dude...

 

[Cassio]

This thread has gotten really annoying to read. People cant say anything without it being tied back to MK legalization as if theres some sort of vast anti-ban conspiracy. I swear sometimes I feel like Im reading truthers. Im pretty sure everything worth being said was in the first ten pages at most.

I still dont even understand why people are arguing against people using this ruleset. Just let people do what they want, no ones forcing anyone into anything

Spoiler

except the URC

.

 

[kailo34ce]

This thread has gotten really annoying to read. People cant say anything without it being tied back to MK legalization as if theres some sort of vast anti-ban conspiracy. I swear sometimes I feel like Im reading truthers. Im pretty sure everything worth being said was in the first ten pages at most.

I still dont even understand why people are arguing against people using this ruleset. Just let people do what they want, no ones forcing anyone into anything

Spoiler

except the URC

.

you do realize this is a discussion thread right?

you do realize 90% of the OP was referring to MK and MK mains at apex right?

and in reference to how we should consider to mimic Japans ruleset so that we play Brawl more efficiently, which means keeping mk unbanned (Like the Japanese ruleset)

 

[Cassio]

I said MK legalization. Itd feel more like a discussion if certain people stopped acting like conspiracy theorists as if the only reason anyone would ever want to change the ruleset is to legalize MK.

 

[Tommy_G]

thats weird cuz like 5 other people agreed with me during the argument.

and honestly, i ask seibrik that because i wanted to follow up with " do you think you couldve won the (enter name of tourney he won with mk) even without all the CP stages on?"

It's more of the implied :Seibrik had to use a character that you thinks gives whoever plays said character free wins in order to get to where he is now: that I thought was uncalled for.