The real reason Japan is better than America

[Gea]

Did the other US players have an off day too? Because the minute they met a Japanese player, they lost. Most of the top 8 was Japanese from my look.
EDIT:Could be wrong. Checking the results again.

I'm not johning for all of America, I'm saying that if you thought M2K's set with Ocean is top level American MK play you need to stop discussing anything in this topic and sit alone in a room for awhile.

Now quit putting words in my mouth or making assumptions.

 

[Life]

"Wow, Smash players ignoring all possibilities in order to arrive at a preconceived solution that just happens to support their existing ruleset opinions! Who could have possibly seen THAT coming?"

Was floating around the webs and it made me think of this thread.

 

[kailo34ce]

Um what are you talking about? Did you even read the first post of this thread? Metaknight doesn't determine anything...

I was doing some thinking, Why did America's best get bodied so hard at Apex?

We're all obviously good players.

And MK is "broken" so why would lets say Ocean's rob beat M2k's mk?


Why would Otori pretty much **** on all of our players, WITHOUT resorting to (from what i saw) a single gay tactic? (timing someone out, sharking/planking)

He didn't SEEM that much more technical than anyone from america....

But his choices.. Safe most of the time, but his reads were so accurate.

So naturally one would imagine that since, lets say as an example, someone like M2k traveled pretty much every tourny for the last 3 years LOST to people that played within their region only.

How does that make sense? What could possibly merit this?

(deleted text about stages stating his thoughts on why they should go and how it effects things in contrast to his opening point,mk)


Do you guys know WHY Ocean, not using mk, was able to beat a MK we thought to be the gayest ever, at a tourny where he was expected to play the gayest since mk was gona be banned anyway?

Because MK is an ABSOLUTELY beatable character. The only issue is that yes, he takes consecutive hard reads to punish most of his approaches/escape most of his traps. But all that means is you require a more solid use of your brain.

How can we prove this?

Ocean was a rob that was allowed to fight MK on an even playing field often. As such he was able to improve as a player, testing himself, pushing himself, LEARNING. He combined what mk exp he had, with the smarts he gained over the years and turned out to be able to outplay our "gayest"mk on a similar "even" playing field.


My point with all this: If america truelly does hope to improve and be competitors for Japan the next time we all meet, adopting a simliar ruleset might be in order.

If we only play on their stages, we'll have to be able to beat each other more strait up, using our brains.



TLDR: Japan is better because they rely more on their own skills to carry them to victory, and less on stage gimmicks. As a result they are much more equipped for fighting MK and are able to take down even our "gayest".

nope nothing to do with mk, guess i was wrong.

 

[Xaltis]

nope nothing to do with mk, guess i was wrong.

Yea you are wrong lol.

Cause all I saw was MK is ABSOLUTELY a beatable character.

 

[kailo34ce]

Yea you are wrong lol.

Cause all I saw was MK is ABSOLUTELY a beatable character.

so like the fact that mk is beatable and is the point of the stage discussion whether its otori or m2k losing or winning makes me wrong for saying mk determines everything?

ok i understand, i shouldve never said that. i was wrong. how could i ever compete with someone who posts as much as you.

honestly if youre going to imply i dont know what this discussion is when its obvious an alternative means to change brawl without banning mk, and the OP is 90% talking about mk and mk mains and STILL act like it has nothing to do with mk (which isnt even my opinion its just obvious facts) then i dont really think that you should be arguing with me, i really dont even see why you felt the need to say anything to me at all.

you still have provided no means of discussion besides "no he doesnt" and "mk is...beatable" which the first is just you disagreeing and the second isnt even relevant to what i said.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Idk where all this meta talking and USA johns are coming from. But should this not be "How can the USA step up metagames of characters for more options then what you are showing/using?"

I said what I had to say already on this topic which i don't agree with the slightist bit. it's just a big excuse to me. In stead, why not get people together that actually know their characters FULLY and discuss their options in general and in match ups. But not sit here and be all like " But my character ***** yours or your character ***** mines" The heck with that and work on improving ways to deal with that.

Thats one of USA big problems. They scare/quit too easy to even wanna bother learning or putting in work. so they would do w/e it takes to pull of a easy win. Now playing to win is good, its competitive brawl. but look at the damage it cost. All to get some paper at a tournament. meta games screwed, options limited by players, boring game play and a salty country. Way to start off 2012 eh?

But only if these players could gather around and discuss these things about their characters. Improve meta games. find out stuff and use things they could be doing, yet, have not. Things would be so much better yea? Hmm.............

Oh wait, we do, its called the brawl back room. Seems to me you guys are wasting time not even targeting the source. A pointless discussing.

 

[PEACE7]

Amazing thread, lets get them japanese stages up in here lol

 

[TSM ZeRo]

My dude Seibrik! How have you been since Apex?

Well, I agree with your points. Japan proved that they're better players and are now the region to beat. I am going to try to implement Japan's Stagelist and Timer here on Chile, to see how it goes. Hopefully, the Chilean BBR accepts them!

Greetings!

 

[Xaltis]

so like the fact that mk is beatable and is the point of the stage discussion whether its otori or m2k losing or winning makes me wrong for saying mk determines everything?

ok i understand, i shouldve never said that. i was wrong. how could i ever compete with someone who posts as much as you.

honestly if youre going to imply i dont know what this discussion is when its obvious an alternative means to change brawl without banning mk, and the OP is 90% talking about mk and mk mains and STILL act like it has nothing to do with mk (which isnt even my opinion its just obvious facts) then i dont really think that you should be arguing with me, i really dont even see why you felt the need to say anything to me at all.

you still have provided no means of discussion besides "no he doesnt" and "mk is...beatable" which the first is just you disagreeing and the second isnt even relevant to what i said.

All I see is your on metaknight's **** and not giving good reasons at all. MK isn't the whole brawl game like you say. Like...its common sense... lol

 

[Gea]

All I see is your on metaknight's **** and not giving good reasons at all. MK isn't the whole brawl game like you say. Like...its common sense... lol

He is saying that every discussion that comes up about these rulesets and changes about the game are metaknight centric... and he's right. When rulesets come up, MK is the most influential and cited topic. Banning MK, Stages (because MK on cruise and brinstar and how he would do worse with the Japanese list), whether or not MK dominates the game after Apex, LGL (there because of MK)... Everything mentions and has to do with MK directly, and if not directly, it's thinly veiled.

You say that the OP is not about MK but the second half is entirely devoted to talking about the stage list's impact on MK and his dominance. Kalo is saying there is more to Brawl than MK, but not in this discussion, nor any others. The fact that every discussion is so MK-centric shows something is wrong with either the character or the game. That was his point.

 

[Xaltis]

He is saying that every discussion that comes up about these rulesets and changes about the game are metaknight centric... and he's right. When rulesets come up, MK is the most influential and cited topic. Banning MK, Stages (because MK on cruise and brinstar and how he would do worse with the Japanese list), whether or not MK dominates the game after Apex, LGL (there because of MK)... Everything mentions and has to do with MK directly, and if not directly, it's thinly veiled.

You say that the OP is not about MK but the second half is entirely devoted to talking about the stage list's impact on MK and his dominance. Kalo is saying there is more to Brawl than MK, but not in this discussion, nor any others. The fact that every discussion is so MK-centric shows something is wrong with either the character or the game. That was his point.

MK isn't the brawl game. The community is just restarted and the Japanese players proved that to us at Apex... XD

 

[Steam]

MK isn't the brawl game. The community is just restarted and the Japanese players proved that to us at Apex... XD

Nu uh, you're restarted!

 

[Gea]

MK isn't the brawl game. The community is just restarted and the Japanese players proved that to us at Apex... XD

... except he is still the center of focus in the community, which is the point trying to be made.

 

[kailo34ce]

they proved it by beating us with mk

 

[Xaltis]

... except he is still the center of focus in the community, which is the point trying to be made.

Kalio didn't say he was the focus of the community. Or at least I didn't see him say that. Of course he is though. Isn't that obvious? o.o

 

[kailo34ce]

Kalio didn't say he was the focus of the community. Or at least I didn't see him say that. Of course he is though. Isn't that obvious? o.o

super cute.

 

[Xaltis]

super cute.

Um...sowway?

 

[kailo34ce]

Um...sowway?

florida always ruins my day. and im not a bot

 

[Xaltis]

florida always ruins my day. and im not a bot

Oh that was your aim lol. Thought it was another random bot thing cause my aim always gets those. Next time say who you are first. XD

 

[da K.I.D.]

I like how every single one of xaltis' opinions should apparently be obvious facts to everyone else, because they are Xaltis' opinions.

 

[Xaltis]

I like how every single one of xaltis' opinions should apparently be obvious facts to everyone else, because they are Xaltis' opinions.

But its trueeeee

 

[Tommy_G]

He is saying that every discussion that comes up about these rulesets and changes about the game are metaknight centric... and he's right. When rulesets come up, MK is the most influential and cited topic.

Jungle Japes got banned in FL because of Falco.
Any stage with a permanent walk off or wall got banned because of D3.
Stages like New Pork City and Hyrule were banned because of circle camping.

He's saying why keep stages that give a character an advantage. This character happens to be MK.

It's like if we had Hyrule legal with Fox circle camping. He's explaining how Fox's stupid gimmick strategies are preventing us from learning how to actually outplay our opponents.

The only problem with the MK one is people don't understand how terrible these stages are. The sooner people realize they give him an unfair advantage, the faster we can ban them and get on with the actual playing. It's not only because of MK either. We have stages like Shadow Moses banned because of characters like D3, so we should have stages like Brinstar banned because of MK.

Japan laughed at us for considering the MK ban. They all thought it was ridiculous because they knew how too many players simply QQ about the character rather than learning how to counter him and get better at the game itself.

 

[Gea]

He's saying why keep stages that give a character an advantage. This character happens to be MK.

Time to get rid of FD then, I hear some mountain climbers and chimps absolutely adore it there.

 

[Tommy_G]

Time to get rid of FD then, I hear some mountain climbers and chimps absolutely adore it there.

Ok....I guess I have to clarify "unfair" advantage for you then....

 

[Gea]

Please do. Please explain to me the line of what constitutes fair and unfair advantages on a stage. Also please give me specific citations on that permanent walkoffs were only banned after D3.

Edit: Do you honestly think Shadow Moses would be legal if D3 wasn't in the game?

 

[Hylian]

Ok....I guess I have to clarify "unfair" advantage for you then....

How is IC's on FD not any more unfair than MK on cp stages?

I mean, look at what happened at mlg. You see a diddy beating almost all the top mks in the nation on stages like norfair/rc/brinstar lol. If those stages gave mk a 90+% chance to win you wouldn't see that at all.

I've even beaten top mks on RC/brinstar etc.

 

[kailo34ce]

its like these florida players take shifts arguing god damn

 

[Tommy_G]

Please do. Please explain to me the line of what constitutes fair and unfair advantages on a stage. Also please give me specific citations on that permanent walkoffs were only banned after D3.

Are you serious? You expect me to dig back in the 4 years of archives to documents of people discussing the rulesets and the unfair situations back then? I was around on the game's release. They found the non-percent-reliant CG and realized its potential to infinite characters against a wall or take them off a stage and instantly banned stages with walk offs and walls, like Yoshi's Island for example.

Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise force your character to worry about the stage to an extent that allows some character to get free approaches and option selects for it. Sharking is a common problem on these stages. It gives MK a near unbeatable situation that requires the opponent to risk potentially a stock for a small amount of damage, not unlike D3's CG.

Hylian: "Almost beating" still isn't beating. One tournament also doesn't prove the meta as a whole.


FD doesn't force you to focus on the stage more than the game at hand. IC can CG on any stage. The stage shouldn't give players an unfair advantage. If a character wins on a stage like BF, SV, or FD, they deserve it.

 

[Gea]

Are you serious? You expect me to dig back in the 4 years of archives to documents of people discussing the rulesets and the unfair situations back then? I was around on the game's release. They found the non-percent-reliant CG and realized its potential to infinite characters against a wall or take them off a stage and instantly banned stages with walk offs and walls, like Yoshi's Island for example.

Actually they figured out that you can do silly infinites with a lot of characters due to walls. Walk-offs are banned because people can and will camp the blastzones with a stock lead. You know, resulting in a stock loss at like 0%, kind of why Mushroomy Kingdom was banned.

So yes, I am serious. Those stages were not banned to curb the tactics of a single character.

Edit: You obviously don't understand that the lack of platforms has as big of, if not more of an impact on the game than MK being able to shark on a stage.

 

[Tommy_G]

Actually they figured out that you can do silly infinites with a lot of characters due to walls. Walk-offs are banned because people can and will camp the blastzones with a stock lead. You know, resulting in a stock loss at like 0%, kind of why Mushroomy Kingdom was banned.

So yes, I am serious. Those stages were not banned to curb the tactics of a single character.

I believe Shadow Moses would not be banned if D3 wasn't in the game.

Other characters might have wall gimmicks, but they require certain reads against a wall. It's to the extent that if you get hit by it, you deserve it, except for D3. He has the best grab in the game and combos from anywhere into the wall infinite assuming hes facing a wall....and there are walls on both sides of the stage.

 

[kailo34ce]

I believe Shadow Moses would not be banned if D3 wasn't in the game.

Other characters might have wall gimmicks, but they require certain reads against a wall. It's to the extent that if you get hit by it, you deserve it, except for D3. He has the best grab in the game and combos from anywhere into the wall infinite assuming hes facing a wall....and there are walls on both sides of the stage.

you know there was a game(s) before brawl where they banned walkoffs like yoshi island and stages with walkoffs and some of the stages were exactly the same but yet none of the characters were the same.

 

[Gea]

I believe Shadow Moses would not be banned if D3 wasn't in the game.

...and we're done having a discussion. Goodbye. Would the next person from Florida please step forward to take his place?

 

[Tommy_G]

...and we're done having a discussion. Goodbye. Would the next person from Florida please step forward to take his place?

Smart move. It's best if you back down when you don't have a legitimate argument against my case instead of making yourself look like an idiot.


Kailo: They banned walk offs and walls in Melee because of easy setups into infinite combos that take you off the stage or infinitely put up against a wall. D3 is the only character that has this in Brawl. IC has an infinite on every stage so they are not included.


Edit: You obviously don't understand that the lack of platforms has as big of, if not more of an impact on the game than MK being able to shark on a stage.
Edit: Adding platforms doesn't force a player to move or act due to the platform. The stage doesn't force the game away from the characters by adding platforms. The characters don't have to battle the stage and their opponent simultaneously.

 

[Gea]

Edit: Adding platforms doesn't force a player to move or act due to the platform. The stage doesn't force the game away from the characters by adding platforms. The characters don't have to battle the stage and their opponent simultaneously.

1. You mean the reduction of platforms. FD has none. And I would argue that a player definitely plays differently because of platforms being on a stage.

2. We were not discussing players vs the stage, we were discussing stages impacting gameplay by giving characters advantages over others. FD gives certain characters strong advantages over others.

You still have yet to draw that line for me. In fact, you ignored my question entirely. Well, I take that back-- you told me about sharking, which isn't answering my question, but stating your opinion on why you think Brinstar is too good for MK (what about Halberd? Delphino?) All you've done is (incorrectly) cite why some stages were banned. Walkoff stages in Melee were banned even before drillshine infinites were popular. Hmm I wonder why... Oh right. Also, Corneria stayed legal up until a couple of years ago (fin and all) in Melee and was ultimately gotten rid of for other reasons than the fin. D3 is not the only character who can do nasty things against walls in Brawl.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian: "Almost beating" still isn't beating. One tournament also doesn't prove the meta as a whole.

.

Huh? Who did he "almost beat"? He dropped one game the entire tournament and it was to esam. He beat tyrant 3-0 on Norfair/Brinstar/starter. This has happened at several other tournaments as well. Not to mention espy/X beating all the top mks on their counterpicks as well. What top mks always win on their counterpicks against other top players? Should I point out Razer 2 stocking M2K on delphino? Or Brood beating M2K on counterpicks? Neitono beating ally on Frigate? There are PLENTY of examples of people beating our top mk players on their counterpick stages you are just choosing to ignore that information out of either ignorance or bias.

Sorry, but I've been to all these tournaments and seen the top mk players lose on counterpicks quite frequently. Your speculation holds nothing to that.

 

[kailo34ce]

Smart move. It's best if you back down when you don't have a legitimate argument against my case instead of making yourself look like an idiot.

welp so far everyone thinks ur wrong and u just dismiss every argument given to you so i guess thats how you win an argument, shadow moses lol

@hylian not to mention prob the most famous one when ally beat m2k on delphino with snake way back when aaapeeexx

 

[Tommy_G]

1. You mean the reduction of platforms. FD has none. And I would argue that a player definitely plays differently because of platforms being on a stage.

2. We were not discussing players vs the stage, we were discussing stages impacting gameplay by giving characters advantages over others. FD gives certain characters strong advantages over others.
How is "stages impacting gameplay" not a different way of saying certain characters have to fight the stage while trying to fight their opponents? FD does nothing throughout the course of the match that alters the game and forces the players to act.
You still have yet to draw that line for me. In fact, you ignored my question entirely. Well, I take that back-- you told me about sharking, which isn't answering my question, but stating your opinion on why you think Brinstar is too good for MK (what about Halberd? Delphino?) All you've done is (incorrectly) cite why some stages were banned. Walkoff stages in Melee were banned even before drillshine infinites were popular. Hmm I wonder why... Oh right. Also, Corneria stayed legal up until a couple of years ago (fin and all) in Melee and was ultimately gotten rid of for other reasons than the fin. D3 is not the only character who can do nasty things against walls in Brawl.

Just because you don't like my logic, doesn't mean its wrong. Until you prove me wrong, I have answered your questions with enough evidence to overturn your statements. If you need anything more, you're going to have to request it, unless it's a completely ridiculous request. I'm not going to circle argue with you like all of you pro-bans love to do until things like MK's ban happen.


Hylian: I was referring to when you said this: "You see a diddy beating almost all the top mks in the nation on stages like norfair/rc/brinstar lol."


The argument in the OP is those core stages forces the players to deal with who their playing instead of the gimmicks of the different stages. These other stages force characters to have to deal with the stage in some form or another and that has the possibility of altering the game. It's harder to learn the fundamentals, reading skills, and basic spacing tools of the game by playing on these gimmicky stages.

 

[Xaltis]

its like these florida players take shifts arguing god damn

Hey its your fault for not saying the right thing why I argued with you. = P

 

[Gea]

Just because you don't like my logic, doesn't mean its wrong. Until you prove me wrong, I have answered your questions with enough evidence to overturn your statements. If you need anything more, you're going to have to request it, unless it's a completely ridiculous request.

No you haven't. At what point does a stage advantage become enough to warrant banning. I need a hard rule. You haven't said anything about Delphino, and yet that can fall under the same logic you used for Brinstar. Do you intend on banning Delphino?

Your "logic" is as follows:

1. MK can shark on those stages so they give hard advantages towards him and thus should be banned.
2. FD is superior because the stage doesn't have obstacles like acid that interfere with the player.

 

[kailo34ce]

all i know is out of all the characters in the game,for over 10% of them i(and im sure others) ban the same stage, FD, i personally ban it vs olimar falco icies diddy and ddd and maybe other randoms because i use woof. thats a pretty large margin for a "fair" stage

every stage in the game is usually better for one character over another, and in FDs case it has absolutely no hazards and is one of the biggests problems in the game(well when u use a crappy char like me), it gives characters the same advantages as sharking and while those characters arent unbeatable there, you have to fight the stage as well.

Hey its your fault for not saying the right thing why I argued with you. = P

...yep np >.>