The real reason Japan is better than America

[Tommy_G]

No you haven't. At what point does a stage advantage become enough to warrant banning. I need a hard rule. You haven't said anything about Delphino, and yet that can fall under the same logic you used for Brinstar. Do you intend on banning Delphino?

Your "logic" is as follows:

1. MK can shark on those stages so they give hard advantages towards him and thus should be banned.
Any stage that gives any character an unfair advantage should be banned. Any stage that takes the game away from the players and their characters should be very carefully monitored for a ban or banned altogether. I am more of a believer of the latter.
2. FD is superior because the stage doesn't have obstacles like acid that interfere with the playerAny stage that doesn't interfere with the players to the extent that it ruins the interaction between them is superior. FD is just one of them..

Yes, I think Delfino should be banned. MK and Falco have water infinites->death, D3 has the walk offs, and MK can shark (obviously on the appropriate parts of the stages.)

 

[Steam]

FD is one of the most unique stages In the game. There are more stages like rc than there are like fd.

And honestly... You can't really judge what stages give unfair advantages to characters without a preconceived notion about how good a character in question is. All pro-bans will say rc/brinstar are fine. All anti bans will say rc and brinstar are the problem.

And stage interference is something inherent to smash. Learn to adapt to the stage. It only needs to be limited when it's random and gives little to no warning or time to react.

 

[Tommy_G]

FD is one of the most unique stages In the game. There are more stages like rc than there are like fd.

And honestly... You can't really judge what stages give unfair advantages to characters without a preconceived notion about how good a character in question is. All pro-bans will say rc/brinstar are fine. All anti bans will say rc and brinstar are the problem.

Lets unban Jungle Japes then.

 

[Tesh]

I'm not interested in the rest of this thread anymore, but do you really think walkoffs and walls are only banned because of DDD or did I miss some level of sarcasm?

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm not interested in the rest of this thread anymore, but do you really think walkoffs and walls are only banned because of DDD or did I miss some level of sarcasm?

It's one of the biggest reasons.

 

[Ruuku]

its like these florida players take shifts arguing god damn

...and we're done having a discussion. Goodbye. Would the next person from Florida please step forward to take his place?

Really now? Is this where this thread is going? *shakes head*

 

[kailo34ce]

not hating on florida and i know we happen to both be from texas but for the last chunk of pages it seems to be mostly florida vs everyone else

 

[Gea]

So you're not only arguing two different points at once here, but you seem to have strayed entirely off of the path of arguing in favor of the Japanese ruleset when you consider some of the stages they have legal do have obstacles that do impact the player.

Any stage that gives any character an unfair advantage should be banned.

First, as we've said, FD can DRASTICALLY have effects on some matchups. So, as I have asked HOW DO YOU DEFINE UNFAIR ADVANTAGE? YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN ME AN ANSWER BESIDES SOMETHING VAGUE SUCH AS:

Any stage that takes the game away from the players and their characters should be carefully monitored.

This is vague and subjective.

2. FD is superior because the stage doesn't have obstacles like acid that interfere with the player.
Any stage that doesn't interfere with the players to the extent that it ruins the interaction between them is superior. FD is just one of them..

Such as? Where do you draw the line for this? Smashville has a moving platform that often has a deep impact on the match. Yoshi's Island has shyguys and the side platform. Ps1 has the windmill, you can fall through the stage, a wall appears. Lylat tilts, often giving one player a positional advantage.

Yes, I think Delfino should be banned. MK and Falco have water infinites->death, D3 has the walk offs, and MK can shark (obviously on the appropriate times)

Okay. So what do you want legal?

Really now? Is this where this thread is going? *shakes head*

You're right. I don't think everyone in Florida shares this guy's opinions. The other issue was miscommunication, apparently. I apologize for my comment.

 

[da K.I.D.]

just posting to say good lord tommy Gs logic is awful right now.

I believe the main point the OP was that america shoul d adopt the japanese ruleset if we want to beat them. and while that is painfully flawed, at least you could follow his line of thought.

Tommy seems to claim to have the same idea while at the same time saying that we need to ban delfino.

For anyone thats unsure, the last time I checked this is the japanese stagelist.

Starter:
FD
BF
SV

Counter:
YI:B
Defino
Lylat.

All stages give inherent advantages and disadvantages to characters, thats the nature of the game. To say that you should ban any stage that breaks some unnamed threshold of affecting gameplay means that that line of thought could be extended to the point where you cant play on ANY stage at all.

 

[kailo34ce]

The strangest thing is that FD, the stage with like no obstacles at all, is arguably diddy, ddd, pikachu, olimar, falco, and ice climbers best stages, andonly because they benefit from the opponent not being able to go anywhere.

the big unbalance in this game is another reason why "odd" stages are needed, altho the result is usually someone takign one of these high tier characters to an odd stage with mk, because mk is so great.

the variables in this game have more to do with the poor builds of characters(whether or not they have some great gimmick like the ones i listed) than stage hazards imo

 

[Tommy_G]

Well enjoy your terrible meta. FL is going to be too busy getting good to care.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The strangest thing is that FD, the stage with like no obstacles at all, is arguably diddy, ddd, pikachu, olimar, falco, and ice climbers best stages, andonly because they benefit from the opponent not being able to go anywhere.

the big unbalance in this game is another reason why "odd" stages are needed, altho the result is usually someone takign one of these high tier characters to an odd stage with mk, because mk is so great.

the variables in this game have more to do with the poor builds of characters(whether or not they have some great gimmick like the ones i listed) than stage hazards imo

You have no idea how much I loved this one post.
Also, subscribing. may or may not post later.


All I can tell from the OP is that I agree with Tuen much more than with Seibrik. Both have the same starting point, but much different ideals.

 

[DMG]

By Florida, I think you mean ESAM. That boy has some darn dedication I tell you what.

I still love Florida. REDHALBERD LOVE ME dawg, if you still play this game 1 day we shall team.

 

[-LzR-]

Tommy G just made it to Doc tier with his terrible logic.

 

[Steam]

Lets unban Jungle Japes then.

I'd have no problem with that. Lucario loves that stage :3

And there's nothing wrong with it either

 

[Akaku94]

lol.

TommyG tried to show how stupid our logic was by extending it to *gasp* making japes legal! He must have missed the part where it's NOT BROKEN.

 

[zmx]

You all are going off on a tangent. If you read the earlier posts you'd see there's a very different reasoning for a conservative stage list.

Tuen worded it the best. Let me give you a super short summary:

1. Neutrals allow players to focus on general aspects of the game that are not stage dependent.
2. By doing this players stop worrying about which stage gimmicks to exploit or what to CP and start caring about improving in general.
3. This results in better players with superior spacing, option selects and reads (aka the Japanese).\

It makes sense if you think about it. Any minute not spent as MK trying to shark Olimar on Delfino or timing him him out on RC is time spent (presumably) at actually getting better at the MU in general.

 

[Drake12]

I find this to only be a theory, with more hard evidence needing to be made. Ocean beating M2K isn't evidence enough for me.
An example I would call on would be brood beating M2K on delfino, where if you think about it brood should have no stage experience and be at a disadvantage due to it being MK and no stage experience. He was still able to win.
I think that we may be overthinking the **** and that they may just be that good from practice...stages aside.

 

[Tesh]

I find this to only be a theory, with more hard evidence needing to be made. Ocean beating M2K isn't evidence enough for me.
An example I would call on would be brood beating M2K on delfino, where if you think about it brood should have no stage experience and be at a disadvantage due to it being MK and no stage experience. He was still able to win.
I think that we may be overthinking the **** and that they may just be that good from practice...stages aside.

Wow, did you not read the thread title? Seibrik found the real reason.

 

[Drake12]

Wow, did you not read the thread title? Seibrik found the real reason.

Right, and I'm saying that I find it to be only a theory. I disagree at the moment with it being the reason why unless more facts are made. Brood can argue against it just as easily (with delfino) as ocean can argue for it.

 

[Tesh]

You are only calling it a theory because you want MK banned.

 

[zmx]

ATT:Drake

You are being trolled right now. That is all.

 

[kailo34ce]

It is obvious by now any argument agaisnt the OP will be countered with evidence that caters to the OPin theory, then quickly dismissed.

i have no opinion on ban or anti-ban but this is just another ploy to keep metaknight unbanned.

 

[Tommy_G]

I'd have no problem with that. Lucario loves that stage :3

And there's nothing wrong with it either

Maybe you can help me convince the rest of FL to unban it. I think its on the same dumb level of Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. If those are legal, Jungle Japes should be as well.


And just because all of you don't like my logic, doesn't make it wrong. I'm not going to circle argue with you because you want to nitpick on little details.
I'm not going to argue point A->point B->point C->point A because there's never "enough" evidence for you.

MK is not broken. MK should not be banned. Certain stages force characters to act in certain situations to extents that put them at too many very dangerous, disadvantageous positions. These stages take away from the game's fundamentals. Platforms and flat stages are part of the game's fundamentals because they exist everywhere. Certain characters get better on neutrals because they are better characters. They don't need to fight the stage while fighting their opponent.

Essentially:

1. Neutrals allow players to focus on general aspects of the game that are not stage dependent.
2. By doing this players stop worrying about which stage gimmicks to exploit or what to CP and start caring about improving in general.
3. This results in better players with superior spacing, option selects and reads (aka the Japanese).

If you want to call my logic bad, make some point to it then. ;-)

 

[kailo34ce]

I'm not going to argue point A->point B->point C->point A because there's never "enough" evidence for you.

If you want to call my logic bad, make some point to it then. ;-)

you do realize that the people who favor japans stage list drop the whole "not enough evidence" thing more than the people who want to leave it alone right?

you do realize that whenever you want to change something you(your side) are the ones that have to come up with actual evidence right ? and not just japan theory.

instead the opposite has been happening, people who favor japans stage list treat it as fact when it isnt, and dismiss the argument for why it isnt exactly true.

this is why your logic has been deemed "bad" no other reason.

it is backwards thinking, illogical.

this whole topic is a comparison of america and japan in theory with an imaginary line drawn at stages.

------------

any number of factors could be the reason why USA lost, including that the certain successful players were just more ready/having a better day/ BETTER PLAYERS and doing a random match on frigate doesnt take away from knowledge of a 4 year old game.

 

[Tesh]

Apex as the foundation of this whole topic is so ******** its hard to believe the OP even buys it. We didn't get slaughtered first of all. Nairo came extremely close to beating Otori and went 1-1 in sets with Nietono while 3-0ing Kakera. Rain lost to DEHF, Brood lost to Ally, Kakera lost to ESAM's pocket ICs. The results were actually so close that a different bracket could have easily played out differently.

This is just such fragile and subjective basis for cutting out a large part of whats left in the game. Its just a big john about why we lost instead of accepting that maybe the most talented players in the world aren't all from NA.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I wonder when people will admit they simply got outplayed.

 

[Tesh]

They are admitting that sort of. They are just saying they got outplayed because their opponents had access to better training.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Which was just playing on starters.................huh...........

 

[Ruuku]

Which makes me bring up this question again: when will we start worshiping the Japanese Brawl players as gods? Only gods can defeat American Brawl players.

 

[Tommy_G]

you do realize that the people who favor japans stage list drop the whole "not enough evidence" thing more than the people who want to leave it alone right?

you do realize that whenever you want to change something you(your side) are the ones that have to come up with actual evidence right ? and not just japan theory.
We are trying to tell you that your car has something wrong with it and you are trying to be the one who drives with the error anyways. We, multiple people here including the OP, gave you a myriad of reasons as to why the system is broken, but it won't affect you if you don't get over your ignorance.

instead the opposite has been happening, people who favor japans stage list treat it as fact when it isnt, and dismiss the argument for why it isnt exactly true.
If our logic isn't exactly true, prove it. You've done nothing but say "no, no, no, no, our way is better. You suck. You're stupid."

this is why your logic has been deemed "bad" no other reason.

it is backwards thinking, illogical.
Thinking coherently and for the better of the community is illogical? Damn. Innovators and inventors should put down their tools and give up their profession. We need to always keep everything the exact same way if anything is going to get better.
this whole topic is a comparison of america and japan in theory with an imaginary line drawn at stages.
It's because those stages better teach the games fundamentals. We got outplayed because they know the game better due learning the actual game and not the stupid stage gimmicks.
------------

Thoughts in green. It took reading over what you said nearly 5 times before I got somewhat of an understanding of what you meant. Sigh, grammar and sentence coherency mean nothing nowadays.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I wonder when people will admit they simply got outplayed.

this.

There really isnt any underlying deep seated uncovered issues to this.

They practiced harder, and they played better. Stop trying to over analyse things and just leave it at that. If stages really have that much of an impact on what ever a certain person feels that it takes to get better, do whatever you feel you have to do to get better. but the concept that there is only one way to get better and people will fail if they dont concede to your opinion on how to get better is just trash reasoning.

get better and do it your way, and let others get better their way.

 

[kailo34ce]

Thoughts in green. It took reading over what you said nearly 5 times before I got somewhat of an understanding of what you meant. Sigh, grammar and sentence coherency mean nothing nowadays.

my native language is espanol and i try my best to speak english on english speaking forums thankyou for insulting me. ill get to why you just answered everything incorrectly in a moment

 

[Drake12]

ATT:Drake

You are being trolled right now. That is all.

Lolol, I was about to take it seriously...although I don't see why me being pro ban or anti ban really makes a difference.

It is obvious by now any argument agaisnt the OP will be countered with evidence that caters to the OPin theory, then quickly dismissed.

i have no opinion on ban or anti-ban but this is just another ploy to keep metaknight unbanned.

I'm not disregarding the concept, but just because Japan came first place doesn't equal their stagelist making them better. I just think they need to make more hard evidence then one or two circumstances if they wanna use this as something mildly valid.

 

[kailo34ce]

I'm not disregarding the concept, but just because Japan came first place doesn't equal their stagelist making them better. I just think they need to make more hard evidence then one or two circumstances if they wanna use this as something mildly valid.

well tommy g kinda left me brain-dead atm but if you read back to what hylian said a few pages ago, the argument is completely invalid (using their logic at least) which is citing individual circumstances and not looking at any other variables other than the outcome of specific sets.



Anyway @ Tommy

We are trying to tell you that your car has something wrong with it and you are trying to be the one who drives with the error anyways. We, multiple people here including the OP, gave you a myriad of reasons as to why the system is broken, but it won't affect you if you don't get over your ignorance.

is the car the ruleset? or is it the game in general? or is it american mindset or players? i am confused to what this scenario has to do with anything besides making a point with an extreme example and unjustified insulting.but either way there are more factors in the japan vs NA battle than the stages and basing it off stages is what is you(your groups) job to defend, anyone who says "no etc" is probably saying it because the japan stagelist side of the argument is repeating something invalid

If our logic isn't exactly true, prove it. You've done nothing but say "no, no, no, no, our way is better. You suck. You're stupid."

Actually i personally havent done anything like that, and i never said any side was better than the other, if other people did then ok, but still, the stage list making japan better isnt a proven fact, it is the theory in question, its like the bible, someone wrote a bunch of events that people believe as fact and say hey prove us wrong, even if it is proven wrong they still defend it because its what they believe, when its obviously just a tool used for comfort along with other speculation,just like this thread

Thinking coherently and for the better of the community is illogical?
bias comment that shows that nothing i am saying is valid to you and you wont ever change your mind or even realize why your logic isnt correct

Damn. Innovators and inventors should put down their tools and give up their profession. We need to always keep everything the exact same way if anything is going to get better.
again this has little to do with the topic in question, "inventing" that is. but anyway. keeping things our own way or.....copying someone else.....inventing...hmmm yep im pretty sure thats the exact opposite. "backwards logic " comes to mind

It's because those stages better teach the games fundamentals.
if thats true ,which is the topic in question and the only evidence for it being true has already been countered countless times. then we already play on them all the time so cool. we have amazing smash players and a wider range of talent at brawl even tho we may or may not have the "best" player

We got outplayed because they know the game better due learning the actual game and not the stupid stage gimmicks.

robs and olimars and snakes camp under BF platforms, FD is a big gimmick fest obviously because character gimmicks like CGs abused on the stage, smashville you will see people pick vs ddd and just sit on the platform the whole time.

the game is full of character gimmicks in most matchups and on every stage. stages like rc open up characters who can abuse bf and fd against lower tier characters, knowing gimmicks is knowing brawl

 

[Life]

"Wow, Smash players ignoring all possibilities in order to arrive at a preconceived solution that just happens to support their existing ruleset opinions! Who could have possibly seen THAT coming?"

Was floating around the webs and it made me think of this thread.

Reposting this to make a point. It's directed at all of us. You will find in Apex's results whatever you want to find.

If you advocate a restrictive stagelist, Japan wins because of their "superior" stagelist.

If you're more like, well, me:

Spoiler

1. Apex is only one point of data and doesn't necessarily reflect a trend (Brood did well at the previous Apex, but that just means Brood is good, not necessarily all of Japan)

2. Ignoring #1, Japan didn't even really destroy us that hard. They sent over their best, we sent our best, it was a fairly decent mix getting to the end of the bracket. Japan came out on top, but it wasn't really severe enough to indicate anything.

3. Ignoring #1 and #2, Europe's stagelist(/s) is (/are generally) not only more restrictive than America's, but also pretty much the same list used at Apex; nevertheless, they did poorly compared to NA/Japan. (Or did I just miss something?) If the "easier training on more-static stages" logic held, Europe performed well below expectations. A European winning Melee just makes the point clearer.

4. Apex occurred just as the MK ban is becoming standard. I'll let others speculate as to what this means exactly, but it's another shift between Apex's meta and everyone else's.

5. Japan has other reasons to perform well, such as a high population density making practice easier, the whole work ethic thing, or Japan just having really hard games (which I'm going to call "the Beatmania Effect").

6. Japan sent their top players. We sent a wide range of ours. Of course they're going to look OP'd.

tl;dr There's just way too many factors to consider before we declare stages the problem, especially when the people doing the declaring already support that change for other reasons.

It's called "confirmation bias".

Spoiler

If you want to call out the irony of me talking about confirmation bias while defending my pre-existing opinions against a new event, fine, but you missed the point.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Complex, how do you suggest we prepare for our next encounter with japenese players? What is the best course of action? I don't believe our current practice/tourny trends will be enough.


btw for the record, mk asside, i think stages with any kind of hazard/variable directly interfering with gameplay should be banned in general.

it just so happens if you do ban those stages for competative play in general, mk is on a much more balanced playing field. Not saying he's broken to begin with, but he's obviously the best. Having the big three only closes the gap so more characters can compete with him.

 

[Gea]

it just so happens if you do ban those stages for competative play in general, mk is on a much more balanced playing field. Not saying he's broken to begin with, but he's obviously the best. Having the big three only closes the gap so more characters can compete with him.

So you're saying that the ruleset should be adopted because of Metaknight?

Edit: And Seibrik, many stages in the Japanese list have variables that interfere with gameplay. Smashville has one that is pretty damn important. Where do those fall? Because otherwise you're looking for a two-stage list.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

how does the smashville platform "interfere"? its pretty constant, but thats just my opinion. i'm open to debate on this stage.


also, im not saying adopt it because of mk, im just saying its a nice side bonus cuz i believe a character shouldn't be considered to be banned before all other possibilities are explored. banning a character is an absolute extreme to me.


and im not worried about mk being banned for personal reasons, i plan on using wario more regardless of that situation, i just don't believe it's right.

 

[Gea]

There are lots of obstacles on stages that interfere and have a deep impact on a match that are constant. To take a previously mentioned stage, jungle japes does nothing randomly at all. It is just as regular as Smashville. But even if smashville isn't drastic enough for you, what about things like Yoshi's Island? That is certainly legal and has factors that cannot be predicted by the players that can have impacts on the match. The platform that rises can save you or get you killed, the tilt of the middle platform is pretty important. Shyguys can delay hits.

Smashville's platform's position can save someone recovering or get them killed. Sure, a player can easily see where it is going to be, but that doesn't mean they aren't often lucky that the time they got hit off was also the time the platform happened to be on one side or the other.