The real reason Japan is better than America

[ぱみゅ]

I honestly think Conservatives, Liberalists, Pro-ban and Anti-ban, etc, all are good ideals, it all depends on the way people think the game is supposed to be played.

I have always considered Brawl to be slow enough to being able to adapt to the environment without losing track of your opponent, so stage diversity and lots of gimmicks could be possible while conserving every "competitive" element (like random factors not completly decieding games).
However, MK is always an stage-legality factor. You can't analyze stages without thinking if he can break it. Sadly, 80% of the times he does.

After thousands of posts and endless discussion, there has been drawn and followed two main different paths:
-Shorten the stagelist so MK (and possibly other characters) don't have variables that might be abused, allowing more head-to-head action.
-Banning MetaKnight (the main gimmick abuser), and allow a wide stagelist with lots of gimmicks, and a much more variated and unique gameplay.

I don't think any is more right or wrong than the other one, both are very viable options, and depends completly on the player staces and beliefs about the game...

At least, that's how I feel about the matter....

Spoiler

PS. This is a very condensed version of a regular libelalist stance. Banning MK was obviously not the first option in order to allow more stages.
Stages are banned because they can be abused by many characters (permanent walls, circle camping, etc), so the same criteria can be used for MK: if he abuses a lot of stages, he should be banned. You may think that the same criteria may also involve Wario and Sonic... I'll think of a more proper wording later, pretty tired atm.

 

[Exdeath]

seibrik the FL people are blindly loyal to you lol

Of the 5 Floridians I recall posting in the past few pages (including myself), two haven't really made comments agreeing with Seibrik (Ruuku and me), two are Xaltis and Tommy G (practically one entity on many forum-related matters), and one is Seibrik.

Your generalization is foolish and grating.

The only players who immediately jump out at me as having sets being greatly affected by CPs vs. Seibrik are HRNut (Rainbow Cruise), ESAM (Castle Siege), and Big Lou (Brinstar). If you watch Seibrik's matches, he generally avoids strong CPs anyway.

Off the top of my head, the players who Seibrik would abnormally lose to or have abnormal difficulty defeating without MK are 2-D Jeff, HRNut, Red Halberd, Shaky, CO18, and Ryo.

 

[kailo34ce]

It's more of the implied :Seibrik had to use a character that you thinks gives whoever plays said character free wins in order to get to where he is now: that I thought was uncalled for.

just you assuming things is all.

 

[kailo34ce]

Of the 5 Floridians I recall posting in the past few pages (including myself), two haven't really made comments agreeing with Seibrik (Ruuku and me), two are Xaltis and Tommy G (practically one entity on many forum-related matters), and one is Seibrik.

Your generalization is foolish and grating.

The only players who immediately jump out at me as having sets being greatly affected by CPs vs. Seibrik are HRNut (Rainbow Cruise), ESAM (Castle Siege), and Big Lou (Brinstar). If you watch Seibrik's matches, he generally avoids strong CPs anyway.

Off the top of my head, the players who Seibrik would abnormally lose to or have abnormal difficulty defeating without MK are 2-D Jeff, HRNut, Red Halberd, Shaky, CO18, and Ryo.

was a joke to some other people who were discussing/talking to me on aim because for like 30 solid posts there was a different florida player arguing for seibriks side lol.

hey thanks for the info tho and im not being sarcastic, idk what ur intention was but that was exactly some of the info i was lookin for

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

fyi, i **** shaky with wario. He could attest to that.

Halberd and hrnut both lose to my wario as well. Well, halberd went even with his falco for a while, but he'd lose now since i can do the CG if for no other reason

this is all my honest opinion btw.

2-d jeff... Wario/ic is a dumb mu. its even, but dumb. Whoever gets the first hit most likely wins the match. I gota learn how reflex does it but yeah, he gives me alot of trouble without mk, and even a lil trouble with mk.

co18 and ryo i'd prolly have to use a combination of ddd and falco for. but those are prolly my hardest MU's atm.

 

[Exdeath]

hey thanks for the info tho and im not being sarcastic, idk what ur intention was but that was exactly some of the info i was lookin for

That's why I gave it.

fyi, i **** shaky with wario. He could attest to that.

Halberd and hrnut both lose to my wario as well. Well, halberd went even with his falco for a while, but he'd lose now since i can do the CG if for no other reason

this is all my honest opinion btw.

2-d jeff... Wario/ic is a dumb mu. its even, but dumb. Whoever gets the first hit most likely wins the match. I gota learn how reflex does it but yeah, he gives me alot of trouble without mk, and even a lil trouble with mk.

co18 and ryo i'd prolly have to use a combination of ddd and falco for. but those are prolly my hardest MU's atm.

I was under the impression that Shaky beat your with the last time that you met in tournament. You should probably play against HRNut/Halberd in tournament again with Wario before you say that they still lose to you.

 

[Kuro~]

Are we talking sandbag hrnut or y hrnut?

Big difference

 

[Tesh]

Iono about the Japanese MKs not resorting to a single "gay" tactic. I mean obviously against Nairo there wasn't any, but there are alot of matches where Rain and Otori just repeatedly spam tornado on Smashville/BF.

I'm sure the NA is gonna just love Metaknight if we use Japan's ruleset.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I'm sure the NA is gonna just love Metaknight if we use Japan's ruleset.

watchu mean?


and i been beating shaky's gw in recent mm's actually wit wario

 

[Gea]

He means he doesn't think people's opinion on the bat will change that much. Japan's ruleset still doesn't really settle things like planking or stalling, and while you can argue it could help out a few MUs it is unlikely any would suddenly not be in his favor.

Tesh is basically saying that the ruleset doesn't "fix" the "MK problem." You already said you had other reasons besides MK for wanting this ruleset, so it's kind of a moot point... except that your original post had a lot to say about MK.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol Rain have always been a Tornado spammer.
At Apex'10 he literally beat MikeHaze with only Tornado and Shuttle Loop.

 

[Gea]

To be fair, those are pretty fundamental moves.

 

[Tesh]

The hilarious thing is that they still need a scrooging rule. If you still have to ban tactics on the "big three", why can't we keep Delfino and Halberd legal and ban sharking? Both are JUST as easily enforceable.

And yea, I'm talking about the fact that Otori sharked Coney (though it was Coney's fault for CPing poorly) after losing on one of the "big three" and how amazing it is watching him approach with nado 8-12 times in a row.

Christ, look at Rain vs DLA. He is nado spamming a Ganondorf!! Somehow thats more skillful than what he might do to the poor guy on Delfino or Halberd?

 

[kailo34ce]

To be fair, those are pretty fundamental moves.

yeah and the only reason he knew those fundamentals was because the stage list!

 

[zmx]

Tuen if you're reading this copy and paste your initial conservative stage list argument here. I feel people are missing the point.

Anyways for those that want a liberal stage list I have a question for you all.
If MK were to be legal would you at least agree on banning brinstar and RC? Or is doing even just that too conservative for you?

I ask because I see a lot of arguments in this thread now for delfino and other semi-polar stages. But I think we have to discuss RC/Brinstar (the most widely regarded polar stages) before we think of what other stages should or should not be legal.

 

[John12346]

I think we can all agree that MK and RC/Brinstar should not be legal at the same time... like, ever.

 

[Dark.Pch]

lol Rain have always been a Tornado spammer.
At Apex'10 he literally beat MikeHaze with only Tornado and Shuttle Loop.

The hilarious thing is that they still need a scrooging rule. If you still have to ban tactics on the "big three", why can't we keep Delfino and Halberd legal and ban sharking? Both are JUST as easily enforceable.

And yea, I'm talking about the fact that Otori sharked Coney (though it was Coney's fault for CPing poorly) after losing on one of the "big three" and how amazing it is watching him approach with nado 8-12 times in a row.

Christ, look at Rain vs DLA. He is nado spamming a Ganondorf!! Somehow thats more skillful than what he might do to the poor guy on Delfino or Halberd?

Rain Nado spammed me at apex 2012 and I beat him for it.

 

[WindMajor]

Anyways for those that want a liberal stage list I have a question for you all.
If MK were to be legal would you at least agree on banning brinstar and RC? Or is doing even just that too conservative for you?

Way too conservative.

For reference, I think the Unity Ruleset is a conservative ruleset. I would be perfectly satisfied with the MLG stage list again, but ideally, I would like to see the full BBR 3.1 stage list.

 

[Kuro~]

MK+RC/brinstar=NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



Never should that combination be allowed. It makes me angry that smash let it stay for so longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

 

[kailo34ce]

one time(long ago) i had to choose between banning norfair, RC, brinstar, or corneria vs hylians GaW...... x.x

.......i lost that set.

 

[Hylian]

one time(long ago) i had to choose between banning norfair, RC, brinstar, or corneria vs hylians GaW...... x.x

.......i lost that set.

LOL those were the days.

GW+Corneria = 5x better than mk on RC or Brinstar lol.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tuen if you're reading this copy and paste your initial conservative stage list argument here. I feel people are missing the point.

I think you are missing the point.

It said people learn better on simplified scenarios and have loads of examples.
Then he said that you can use that knowledge on more complex scenarios with no problem.

Anyways for those that want a liberal stage list I have a question for you all.
If MK were to be legal would you at least agree on banning brinstar and RC? Or is doing even just that too conservative for you?

I ask because I see a lot of arguments in this thread now for delfino and other semi-polar stages. But I think we have to discuss RC/Brinstar (the most widely regarded polar stages) before we think of what other stages should or should not be legal.

If only more people accept YI:M... it's a terrible stage for MK, specially with low LGLs...

 

[Xaltis]

Know the story of Will and his fight for the Jungle!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13962493#post13962493

 

[Steam]

I think you are missing the point.

It said people learn better on simplified scenarios and have loads of examples.
Then he said that you can use that knowledge on more complex scenarios with no problem.



If only more people accept YI:M... it's a terrible stage for MK, specially with low LGLs...

I kinda think olimar is untouchable on the right slope... Lol.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I kinda think olimar is untouchable on the left slope... Lol.

fixed.
Still, is not any better for Olimar than Rainbow Cruise for MK.

 

[OverLade]

By Florida, I think you mean ESAM. That boy has some darn dedication I tell you what.

I still love Florida. REDHALBERD LOVE ME dawg, if you still play this game 1 day we shall team.

<3<3<3<3

Btw completely ignore anything anyone from FL in here posts. These people have no clue how to analyze the game and it's better to just assume they're trolling. Not joking.

DIPPPPP

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

lade, your from florida, hence ur post must than be trolling




CHEESE DIPPPP

 

[Steam]

fixed.
Still, is not any better for Olimar than Rainbow Cruise for MK.

Now that I think about it, he's dumb all over that stage... Way better than mk on rainbow IMO...

 

[DMG]

And you're from Florida too Seibrik, so I guess the OP is a fraud too...

COOL WHIP

Btw you know MK beats Olimar on that stage right? Olimar's grabs follow the slopes, which means you can Tornado/hit his shield and retreat back if he's camping a slope. If he's camping right next to the slope, you have the same mixup game as a regular stage, but you can choose other ways to limit him. You can get rid of blocks to open up approaches/get rid of Olimar Usmashing or comboing people into them, kill the middle blocks to trap him on that side/force ugly rolls if you get in, etc.

Saying Olimar is god on that stage is like saying ROB is the best character on Mansion lol.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Now that I think about it, he's dumb all over that stage... Way better than mk on rainbow IMO...

His gameplay is very dumb no matter the stage. A lot of characters have it impossible hard against him anyway.
Best strategy against left-camping Olimar is to jump over him and attack from offstage or, if you ledge options are good enough, airdodge, grab it and act from there. If your character can't do it, and don't have a good aerial approach game, he's probably bad against Olimar to begin with.
Right-camper (and pretty much anywhere on slopes) Olimar is beaten with attack>fastall. You'll slide and poke it well with no problem, but slide distances may vary from char to char.

 

[C.J.]

I resent that Halzy =(

 

[Steam]

His gameplay is very dumb no matter the stage. A lot of characters have it impossible hard against him anyway.
Best strategy against left-camping Olimar is to jump over him and attack from offstage or, if you ledge options are good enough, airdodge, grab it and act from there. If your character can't do it, and don't have a good aerial approach game, he's probably bad against Olimar to begin with.
Right-camper (and pretty much anywhere on slopes) Olimar is beaten with attack>fastall. You'll slide and poke it well with no problem, but slide distances may vary from char to char.

Camping the walk off also seems really stupid to try to beat :/

 

[Tesh]

Camping the walkoff sort of works, but if the other character has a good fast fall or a projectile (pretty much everyone?) its not gonna do anything.

His grab is really just too slow and the fact that he can't grab armor an aerial means there are things he will probably never have a chance of punishing from that position.

Still pretty good having a stage where you can't get gimped as Oli.

 

[DMG]

And the fact that his grab TRAVELS the slope. You can hit him/his shield right in front of his face in the air, and when he goes to grab the Pikmin will travel down the slope. Which impacts his ability to be "gay" at walkoff camping.

 

[Tesh]

Its pretty risky for him. I'm pretty sure you can fast fall a greater distance than what his grab can cover. Especially if we are talking about characters that don't suck at aerial approaches.

Off the top of my head, I can't even think of a character that can't easily pressure him with projectiles or safe retreating aerials. I really think Olimar is better off just being amazing in the center of the stage being super hard to kill and killing early off the top.

 

[DMG]

He also gets Usmash traps near the center if you hit the bottom of the upper blocks. So yeah that would be the best spot for him in most cases. Either way, this is not Olimar's RC or Brinstar if you will.

 

[Exdeath]

<3<3<3<3

Btw completely ignore anything anyone from FL in here posts. These people have no clue how to analyze the game and it's better to just assume they're trolling. Not joking.

DIPPPPP

 

[Ruuku]

<3<3<3<3

Btw completely ignore anything anyone from FL in here posts. These people have no clue how to analyze the game and it's better to just assume they're trolling. Not joking.

DIPPPPP

To be fair, my first post was completely serious.

 

[BlueSamsara]

It's probably since Japanese Players are Asian, and blind people's other senses are enhanced. They "feel" the game, rather than see it.

 

[Doc King]

This might be a small reason, but Japan had more experience with Brawl since it was out earlier in Japan than in America.