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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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choknater

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choknater
IC infinite = 100:0 every matchup amirite?
No. That's not what I said.

There are characters who are even harder to grab than MK.
CG timing on MK is very easy too, and pretty much the same as Falco/G&W, so knowing the timing to that one is very useful. Pretty much all the good IC players have guaranteed death grab on MK.

MK's good strategy to avoid IC grabs is to stay on top of them and dair a lot. He definitely won't be grabbed.

A lot of MK's don't really realize that strategy though, and kinda just run into blizzards a lot.

IMO there are still ways for IC's to get past that dair spam. Running away... uair... if you're feeling lucky, Belay, hahaha.
 

powuh_of_PIE

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*sigh* I'm probably going to be ignored for being such a newbie to these boards, but here goes.

I posted this yesterday, and it's already more than 20 pages in the past. I can't remember it all, so:

I suggest a 3-6 month thread lock to give the metagame time to mature, then this thread gets moved to the SBR so they can vote. Or maybe it stays locked and they make their own. w/e THEN it gets re-released AFTER the decision so we can see how far the metagame has come and how stupid we sounded (from a future point of view of course).
 

da K.I.D.

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da K.I.D. ... Maybe I'd understand and I'd give you more credit if you were actually really good with Metaknight... but all this trying to prove an arbitrary 60:40 or 55:45 doesn't really get you anywhere. Theorybros can only go so far, and I think when the top players really do have their say, they should be considered with the greatest authority. I don't know, that's just me. Azen, Dojo, and M2K, I'm sure none of them support the MK ban.

And NOBODY SAY IT'S BECAUSE THEY PLAY MK, because it isn't. That's just dumb, and smart pros like them are not gonna defend their character just because it's good.

They defend MK by saying that it's STILL POSSIBLE for them to lose using that character, and they themselves beat other Metaknights using their secondaries.

I don't really care much if MK doesn't have a 50:50. Who has the time to think about every matchup on every stage and every situation? Sheik on Norfair is excellent against Metaknight, and I'd do it against an MK opponent simply to throw him off. Is every single MK player going to be playing at the top potential of Metaknight all the time? No. Is every MK going to know every strategy that's going to be used against them, and prevail over every single one? Of course not, because strategies are constantly being developed.

Also, matchups are subjective.
I happen to think Sheik vs Ganon is 100:0. Nobody can prove me wrong, it's an opinion.

My opinion on Metaknight's evens:
Diddy Kong
Snake
Ice Climbers (i'm probably wrong here)
Yoshi
Kirby
Dedede

There are plenty.

And how can someone prove me wrong? With theory bros?
By referencing specific matches where MK ***** those characters?
By that same logic I can go on YouTube and find matches where MK is ***** by those characters.

Seriously, that's why this debate is never gonna end.

Neither side can be proven to be true.

What we need is an SBR VOTE.
this is very disheartening, im not going to bother responding because as youve explained, not only can i not prove anything but because I havent won any tourneys that youve ever heard of (i have won tourneys at a high level though, just in a non social area) my opinion doesnt matter, dispite the repeated validity i bring to the table.

and just so you know (possibly the most invalid thing ive said in this thread)
M2K definitely strikes me as the type who knows how unbeatable MK is but says and does things to ensure he doesnt get banned. He also keeps a lot of the brokeness to himself because he doesnt want Mk to be banned himself because just as OS stated b4 its easy money.(see hylian's MK destroys GaW thread) my guess is that had he let loose on all of the ******** crap that Mk can do to people that we dont even know about yet, not only would he have absurd amounts of swagger jackers, Mk would have been way past banned by now.
yes, M2K is the best player, he came up with the idea that MK can Up-b through the turtle, but at the same time, Mk is broken enough that he CAN up b through it...

but no matter what, my opinion wont matter till i win more so im out..
 

brinboy789

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this is very disheartening, im not going to bother responding because as youve explained, not only can i not prove anything but because I havent won any tourneys that youve ever heard of (i have won tourneys at a high level though, just in a non social area) my opinion doesnt matter, dispite the repeated validity i bring to the table.

and just so you know (possibly the most invalid thing ive said in this thread)
M2K definitely strikes me as the type who knows how unbeatable MK is but says and does things to ensure he doesnt get banned. He also keeps a lot of the brokeness to himself because he doesnt want Mk to be banned himself because just as OS stated b4 its easy money.(see hylian's MK destroys GaW thread) my guess is that had he let loose on all of the ******** crap that Mk can do to people that we dont even know about yet, not only would he have absurd amounts of swagger jackers, Mk would have been way past banned by now.
yes, M2K is the best player, he came up with the idea that MK can Up-b through the turtle, but at the same time, Mk is broken enough that he CAN up b through it...

but no matter what, my opinion wont matter till i win more so im out..
well olimar is broken enough to whistle through any attack...
*marth final smash*
*olimar whistle*
*marth fails*
 

salaboB

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well olimar is broken enough to whistle through any attack...
*marth final smash*
*olimar whistle*
*marth fails*
I think you need to learn what broken means. Btw, you said any attack -- can he whistle through the tornado?
 

ice-

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I play a ****ing land and tap it for mana in every format of Magic, except for Vintage where I play several Moxen and a Black Lotus. It's the same game.

I attack the opposing player until I win the game in both doubles and singles. It's the same game.

:/

You missed my point.

I am just saying that saying a deck isn't "universally" broken and trying to compare that to an advancing metagame doesn't really work as more or less the "rules"are different in each format. Each format ends up being defined by a certain type of deck and thus each format is warps and evolves based on that. In Kamigawa gifts, in Time Spiral teachings, in old extended dredge, in legacy thresh, vintage Yawgs Will. I believe Metaknight is this factor for Brawl, and it will be up to the players to decided whether it is a negative effect or a positive.

fyi, affinity deck was banned from standard due to dropping attendance at fnm's and larger standard tournaments, not really b/c it was broken. The only card that was really broken got banned long before, Skullclamp. edit: and aether vial

Also, Affinity was never broken in Extended b/c there has always been a deck at least one turn faster than it(Medalion Desire, Dredge, TEPS,)
and do to a larger card pool that hate cards are much better(Deed, Energy Flux, etc).
 

Master Raven

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I see a lot of people complaining about MK's lack of disadvantageous matchups, but honestly, I think we need to look beyond that. Yun and Old Sagat come to mind and they aren't banned (OSagat is soft-banned in Japan but eh).
 

CR4SH

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I see a lot of people complaining about MK's lack of disadvantageous matchups, but honestly, I think we need to look beyond that. Yun and Old Sagat come to mind and they aren't banned (OSagat is soft-banned in Japan but eh).
It's not his lack of disadvantaged matchups, it's his lack of even matchups.

I don't think meta should be banned, I just think that arguing against this point is invalid.
 

AlexX

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It's not his lack of disadvantaged matchups, it's his lack of even matchups.

I don't think meta should be banned, I just think that arguing against this point is invalid.
But Yun doesn't have any even matchups, either. I believe Ken is supposedly the only one, but even that is debated.

Xianghua in Soul Calibur is also in the same boat. No disadvantage, few to no neutrals, yet she's perfectly legal.
 

salaboB

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But Yun doesn't have any even matchups, either. I believe Ken is supposedly the only one, but even that is debated.

Xianghua in Soul Calibur is also in the same boat. No disadvantage, few to no neutrals, yet she's perfectly legal.
Different games. Different match durations, different capability to punish for mistakes, different impact for having a slight advantage. Lack of stages greatly impacting character ability to compare that aspect to (MK doesn't really have bad stages the way everyone else in the game does, too.) Different numbers of top-end players.

So here's what MK has: Not only is he neutral -> better against everyone, he's neutral -> better on every stage. That's an advantage that nobody else can claim, I believe not even Marth if MK is gone.

Yes, you can say everything I listed isn't a reason to not look at banning MK -- but it doesn't matter if it won't work, the point of a ban is to improve this game's tournament community and longevity, not Soul Caliber's tournament community.
 

Lee Martin

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i MAIN mk well used to. and even i want him banned. not only is he way too good. with infinite priority but he literally makes the game not fun and unenjoyable. i almost feel bad when i use him bc i realize how cheap he is. he's kind of like.. easy money. but thats not what brawl should be about. the game would be a lot funner AND fairer without him. i am one of the top Mk players and i have many more points that i want to post but in the backroom. i dont feel like getting flamed but idk why i dont have backroom access. This character needs to be banned for good.

-Lee Martin.
 

Irow

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Anyone who doesn't want Metaknight banned is a filthy communist.

Where's McCarthy when you need him.
Lies, everybody that's wants him banned is a dirty, rotten, godless communist.

Make everything more equal? Take out the top, so the bottom may flourish?

That seems like communism to me.
 

Lee Martin

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it seems like something that would make smash noobs quit bc of one character. or people realizing that he Can NOT be beat and thus learning mk. if he isnt banned 80% of players will use Mk. it wont even be super sword bros. just super mk brothers or something dumb.
 

Irow

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No.

I'm a strong, strong capitalist.

Be the best I can by using every dirty, cheap trick (or character) I can.

And step on the weak while I'm at it for my own wealth.
 

da K.I.D.

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this is very disheartening, im not going to bother responding because as youve explained, not only can i not prove anything but because I havent won any tourneys that youve ever heard of (i have won tourneys at a high level though, just in a non social area) my opinion doesnt matter, dispite the repeated validity i bring to the table.

but no matter what, my opinion wont matter till i win more so im out..
i MAIN mk well used to. and even i want him banned. not only is he way too good. with infinite priority but he literally makes the game not fun and unenjoyable. i almost feel bad when i use him bc i realize how cheap he is. he's kind of like.. easy money. but thats not what brawl should be about. the game would be a lot funner AND fairer without him. i am one of the top Mk players and i have many more points that i want to post but in the backroom. i dont feel like getting flamed but idk why i dont have backroom access. This character needs to be banned for good.

-Lee Martin.
it seems like something that would make smash noobs quit bc of one character. or people realizing that he Can NOT be beat and thus learning mk. if he isnt banned 80% of players will use Mk. it wont even be super sword bros. just super mk brothers or something dumb.
listen to this guy because he wins more than i do


Super NadoLoop Bros.
 

hotgarbage

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Xianghua in Soul Calibur is also in the same boat. No disadvantage, few to no neutrals, yet she's perfectly legal.
Soul Calibur and SSBB are two completely different games and you're comparing two different situations; you can't draw an analogy like that. Analogies are so misused in this thread <______>.
 

Yuna

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I skipped the past 12 pages that cropped up during my absence because I'm tired and don't have the time to read them all. No doubt the thread hasn't progressed much since. If anybody feels like there's something in there I should take a look at, PM me.

Soul Calibur and SSBB are two completely different games and you're comparing two different situations; you can't draw an analogy like that. Analogies are so misused in this thread <______>.
Whyt not?! Why the hell not?!

"He has no disadvantageous matchups" - "Well, neither do Yun and Xianghua." - "Oh, it's a different game."

So just because it's different fighting game, there is no comparison?! What's the logic in that?! What the hell makes Smash so special that No disadvantageous match-ups in Smash = Auto-Ban when it's not the same for other games?!

What's so special about Smash?

You can argue that his match-ups are too good but to call for a ban merely because he enjoys no disadvantageous match-ups and then go "This is Smash!" when people bring up other games is, well, I won't say it, but you know what I mean.

it seems like something that would make smash noobs quit bc of one character. or people realizing that he Can NOT be beat and thus learning mk. if he isnt banned 80% of players will use Mk. it wont even be super sword bros. just super mk brothers or something dumb.
Smash n00bs quitting = Not our problem. N00bs quit for all kinds of reasons. If we allowed items, one jillion n00bs would choose to play Smash because they love items. Should we make items a tournament standard because of it?

People "realizing he cannot be beat" = He cannot be beat. People can think he cannot be beat. As long as it's not true, then it doesn't matter.

It doesn't even matter if people flock to him because of this belief if it isn't true. However, if it is true that he "cannot be beat" (reasonably), then he needs to be banned.
 

Yuna

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this is very disheartening, im not going to bother responding because as youve explained, not only can i not prove anything but because I havent won any tourneys that youve ever heard of (i have won tourneys at a high level though, just in a non social area) my opinion doesnt matter, dispite the repeated validity i bring to the table.
You think they're valid. Many do not. While many in this thread think your post are valid because they agree with you, we think they're not valid because, um, we've played the game, read up on the theory, know our Smash and fighting game history and know what constitutes a need for a ban.

You repeatedly use arguments that I repeatedly dash (you use some that I do not) followed by you ignoring me as if I'd never said anything or debating me as if I'm wrong without even checking up on the facts.

Also, you also go "In my opinion" about a lot of things in which your opinion does not matter. Why should we listen to you when the Smash world at large (especially those of high regard (knowledge, not just skill)) disagree?!

Why should we take your word for, say, Sonic's prowess when tons of other people (especially those that matter) disagree?

M2K definitely strikes me as the type who knows how unbeatable MK is but says and does things to ensure he doesnt get banned.
Ban MK? He'll just go for the next logical step; D3 + Marth. He already knows how to play both.

He also keeps a lot of the brokeness to himself because he doesnt want Mk to be banned himself because just as OS stated b4 its easy money.(see hylian's MK destroys GaW thread)
How the hell would he do this? If he doesn't use it, then he can't win using it. If he does, Smashboard Whiners R' Us would be all over it the second he did it.

my guess is that had he let loose on all of the ******** crap that Mk can do to people that we dont even know about yet, not only would he have absurd amounts of swagger jackers, Mk would have been way past banned by now.
What is this magical "******** crap"? Has he let it all lose yet? Is he still holding back? Has he let it all lose yet and we still haven't banned him? So the logic is: Had we known what we know now before, he'd be soooooo banned right now but at this moment, there's still doubt because it came in increments?

Also, baseless speculation, all of it!

but no matter what, my opinion wont matter till i win more so im out..
No, your opinion won't matter 'til you actually show yourself knowledgeable. I haven't actually won a major American tournament, but a lot of people respect me for being knowledgeable (not one of the most but at least more than most people) about Smash. I'm not even the best in my tiny country of residence (Sweden).

But you know what? I read... a lot. I can memorize tons of theory. I read on SWF, I talk to actual people, I know some of the best Smashers in the world.

You don't have to be one of the best players to debate Smash. You just have to be one of the most knowledgeable ones. And the fact that you've said some highly erroneous things in this thread shows that you clearly aren't one of the most knowledgeable.

So why we should just take your word for it is beyond me. That's quite arrogant, even. "All of SWF is wrong. My take on this and that is right!"
 

da K.I.D.

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I skipped the past 12 pages that cropped up during my absence because I'm tired and don't have the time to read them all. No doubt the thread hasn't progressed much since. If anybody feels like there's something in there I should take a look at, PM me.


Whyt not?! Why the hell not?!

"He has no disadvantageous matchups" - "Well, neither do Yun and Xianghua." - "Oh, it's a different game."

So just because it's different fighting game, there is no comparison?! What's the logic in that?! What the hell makes Smash so special that No disadvantageous match-ups in Smash = Auto-Ban when it's not the same for other games?!

What's so special about Smash?

You can argue that his match-ups are too good but to call for a ban merely because he enjoys no disadvantageous match-ups and then go "This is Smash!" when people bring up other games is, well, I won't say it, but you know what I mean.
this part is true and i agree, but you have said yourself that if its proven that he has no EVEN matches than THAT would qualify for a ban, because you said your self that if he 60-40s everybody else in the game, (which is highly plausible) that even you would have to take a second look at the issue
Smash n00bs quitting = Not our problem. N00bs quit for all kinds of reasons. If we allowed items, one jillion n00bs would choose to play Smash because they love items. Should we make items a tournament standard because of it?

People "realizing he cannot be beat" = He cannot be beat. People can think he cannot be beat. As long as it's not true, then it doesn't matter.

It doesn't even matter if people flock to him because of this belief if it isn't true. However, if it is true that he "cannot be beat" (reasonably), then he needs to be banned.
actually noobs quitting DOES = our problem. think of this
if some random decently skilled DK/ROB user goes to a tourney with M2K, Azen, DSF, Plank, and Omni there, do you think he expects to win? of course not, but he still goes, because he thinks that anybody that beats him is just a better player,, and he has no qualms about losing to a better player, because he can get better on his own, and possibly do better against them next time.
but if he goes to that tourney and gets beat by 16 different MKs and begins to think that Mk is too good, hes basically faced with 2 options
1. Play MK
2. Quit the game
now neither of these options seems that horrible but suppose you make 90% of tourney-goers make this decision.
both of which are detrimental because with option 1 they are just adding to the problem because at that point 90% of people are playing MK, and thats killing the competitive scene.
and with option 2, tourney attendance goes down to eventual point where its not worth the money feasibly to have the tournaments, and than the competitive scene dies.
and keep in mind, all of this happened because people "thought" that MK was OP.
come on yuna. "perception is reality" youre smart enough to know that.
so basically this is going to boil down to what has already happened in my area,
rochester used to have 30+ man tourneys every other week.
now, were lucky if we can get enough people for it to count in ankokus list (16) and 4-5 of the top 8 all use MK.
that is no bueno yuna...
 
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