The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

ooooh ma bad. but still, how will that help against MK? unless everybody can use it except for him >.< or it doesnt benefit him in anyway...

Because it was a character specific AT, in my example.

At this point, that's the most likely discovery that could prevent MK from needing to be banned -- that means it's also the most likely discovery that could result in him being unbanned.

My point is that if he does get banned, a situation that has changed enough for him to be unbanned is most likely to be noticed. I don't believe he will stay banned forever unless nothing changes noticably from the conditions that were in place when he got banned -- that's just not how this community that so loves to poke at everything works.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes because if you ban him, HOW will AT's or techniques develop on a banned character? if hes banned, he will be permanently banned, and that will hinder the metagame

can one of the many sonic mains in here post the video of the hacked (super)sonic?
i will use that video to disprove the theory in the quote above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZcJPrDPln0
ok here is the hacked sonic video.

now about halfway through the vid, the guy states that with this hack the super sonic transformation is permanant. but that there is a way to reverse it.
he accomplishes this feat on a tourney banned stage. but if brinboys theory was right, this never would have been figured out because that stage is banned and nobody would have ever tested the hack on that stage to begin with.

Therefore, if it is possible for this guy to test hacks on a banned stage, its just as plausible for new ATs to be tested on a banned character, because as salaboB stated, just because they are banned from tourneys does not mean that everybody completely forgets about it and never plays with said banned aspect ever again...

 

[Orb13]

This is funny 230 pages. Even if we do come to a conclusion, how would we enforce it? We're just a forum... We don't really control what TOs do.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ooooh ma bad. but still, how will that help against MK? unless everybody can use it except for him >.< or it doesnt benefit him in anyway...

Maybe it benefits people more than him but what your saying is also a argument used by the pro ban.

AT's found while MK isn't banned aren't guaranteed to hurt him. I honestly think you have nothing left in your side of the argument.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

This is funny 230 pages. Even if we do come to a conclusion, how would we enforce it? We're just a forum... We don't really control what TOs do.

Most TOs agree with what the SBR said. Plus major tournaments follow the SBR rules except for like EVO.

Basically not many will fight against it.

edit: gah double post =\ this thing slowed down a lot.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Solution to problem.

Make Smash a fully online game.

Have a team of balance testers test the hell out of the game, and patch it like every week, so crap like this doesn't happen, and we don't have to worry about junk like infinite grabs.

Until that day, you guys should just all chillax and play Smash as what it was always intended to be: a fun four player game. Street Fighter 2 (and Street Fighter 4) were balanced from the get go for tournament play, Smash wasn't, and that's why issues like this exist.

 

[brinboy789]

Maybe it benefits people more than him but what your saying is also a argument used by the pro ban.

AT's found while MK isn't banned aren't guaranteed to hurt him. I honestly think you have nothing left in your side of the argument.

you misinterpreted me again...i never said anything about benefiting him. i dont think he needs any more benefits >.< but im saying that an universal AT probably wouldnt help unban him because everybody can use it. only character specific AT's will, and if MK is banned...well...yea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZcJPrDPln0
ok here is the hacked sonic video.

now about halfway through the vid, the guy states that with this hack the super sonic transformation is permanant. but that there is a way to reverse it.
he accomplishes this feat on a tourney banned stage. but if brinboys theory was right, this never would have been figured out because that stage is banned and nobody would have ever tested the hack on that stage to begin with.

Therefore, if it is possible for this guy to test hacks on a banned stage, its just as plausible for new ATs to be tested on a banned character, because as salaboB stated, just because they are banned from tourneys does not mean that everybody completely forgets about it and never plays with said banned aspect ever again...

for the last time, i said i took back what i said about the hindering metagame part

 

[brinboy789]

Solution to problem.

Make Smash a fully online game.

Have a team of balance testers test the hell out of the game, and patch it like every week, so crap like this doesn't happen, and we don't have to worry about junk like infinite grabs.

Until that day, you guys should just all chillax and play Smash as what it was always intended to be: a fun four player game. Street Fighter 2 (and Street Fighter 4) were balanced from the get go for tournament play, Smash wasn't, and that's why issues like this exist.

nintendo doesnt do patches

doubleposttyme

 

[infomon]

Arguments based on "but we might find new ATs in the future that will change everything" are dumb. Brawl has been under intense scrutiny for a long enough time that anything really significant has been found; the game is clearly simple enough that anything profound and undiscovered is extremely unlikely. We'll prolly see minor tweaks to characters and new strategies, which is to be expected as people improve at the game... but that's it.

So forget about ATs, but on the flipside, the matchup info isn't particularly certain at this point.... we need to find some real evidence that MK destroys other characters in a way that the tournament scene will devolve into 90% MK dittos without much disagreement. The tournament scene's not quite there yet, but I suppose the pro-ban side wants to preemptively stop the devolution which they see as inevitable. So give us solid reasoning that MK is dominant enough against his closest matchups that they don't stand a reasonable chance.

 

[choknater]

Synopsis of this thread:

The points have all been covered to death, and there still isn't a consensus. Basically everyone is pushing their own view with VERY strong points and counter points... but the thread sways in favor of whoever is posting the most at the moment. If it's Yuna or Dojo or AlphaZealot or someone smart, it sways toward the non-banning party. If it's da K.I.D. or Overswarm, it sways toward the banning party.

Conclusion: Topic has been beaten to death, nothing is permanent until an SBR vote takes place.

I wonder if anyone caught the not-so-subtle way I introduced my own bias, hahahaa.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

nintendo doesnt do patches

doubleposttyme

Yeah I know. They don't make balanced fighting games either.

Like I was saying, its a fun four player game. Forget about the gaming special Olympics...I mean MLG , forget about tier lists, and just play the game it was meant to be played: a fun game for you and your friends to beat the crap out of each other with your favorite Nintendo characters.

If you guys want a solid, balanced, competition ready fighting game, Street Fighter 4 is right around the corner.

 

[choknater]

Synopsis of this thread:

The points have all been covered to death, and there still isn't a consensus. Basically everyone is pushing their own view with VERY strong points and counter points... but the thread sways in favor of whoever is posting the most at the moment. If it's Yuna or Dojo or AlphaZealot or someone smart, it sways toward the non-banning party. If it's da K.I.D. or Overswarm, it sways toward the banning party.

Conclusion: Topic has been beaten to death, nothing is permanent until an SBR vote takes place.

I wonder if anyone caught the not-so-subtle way I introduced my own bias, hahahaa.

I want to repost my repost of a repost because a new page started. : )

 

[Vyse]

I still think MK unbanning certain stages could work.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yeah I know. They don't make balanced fighting games either.

Like I was saying, its a fun four player game. Forget about the gaming special Olympics...I mean MLG , forget about tier lists, and just play the game it was meant to be played: a fun game for you and your friends to beat the crap out of each other with your favorite Nintendo characters.

If you guys want a solid, balanced, competition ready fighting game, Street Fighter 4 is right around the corner.

commie...

We like playing smash competitively whats wrong with trying to balance the game our selfs even if it means banning characters? I see no real reason to forget about this besides confirming to avoid conflict.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

commie...

We like playing smash competitively whats wrong with trying to balance the game our selfs even if it means banning characters? I see no real reason to forget about this besides confirming to avoid conflict.

Nothing at all! I was joking and in my own way expressing my opinion that this game is very unbalanced. But banning Metaknight is a good idea. He's already been banned in Italy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats not necessarily true, i have personally read at least 3 posts that were nothing but:
wow i didnt think He should be banned rbe4 but after reading this thread, the ban really does make sence. also after i kill the why does Mk **** the cast arguement there wont be any other reason to say he shouldnt be banned

also, after all this work, i should at least be let into the debate room, lol.

 

[choknater]

Is SF4 good? I wanna play it.

Edit: da K.I.D. I have to be honest with you dude. Despite all the spirited effort, I don't think your arguments have the quality to suffice in justifying MK's ban. Overswarm's were much stronger. You're quite a soldier though, I'll give you that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Nothing at all! I was joking and in my own way expressing my opinion that this game is very unbalanced. But banning Metaknight is a good idea. He's already been banned in Italy.

he actually wasnt, that was just a misinformed poster, taking a quote out of context

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Edit: nvm my edit.

Nothing at all! I was joking and in my own way expressing my opinion that this game is very unbalanced. But banning Metaknight is a good idea. He's already been banned in Italy.

In that case lolz. and I think that was just a poll in the end that italy took but he wasn't really banned. How ever he has been banned in 4 tournaments in dallas and hobo 12.

My worse nightmare is that the top 10 are nothing but MK dittos at WHOBO. I know then he would be ban worthy but that tournament would be ruined for me

thats not necessarily true, i have personally read at least 3 posts that were nothing but:
wow i didnt think He should be banned rbe4 but after reading this thread, the ban really does make sence. also after i kill the why does Mk **** the cast arguement there wont be any other reason to say he shouldnt be banned

also, after all this work, i should at least be let into the debate room, lol.

Well this summer you where able to get in by just aplying idk if its still that way but its usually just a lot of debate on religion. Every other thread dies in like 2 pages of posts while those go on more than the banning MK topic.

 

[choknater]

And religious debates never get anywhere.

 

[Grunt]

I asked to join months ago and didn't even get a response.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So forget about ATs, but on the flipside, the matchup info isn't particularly certain at this point.... we need to find some real evidence that MK destroys other characters in a way that the tournament scene will devolve into 90% MK dittos without much disagreement. The tournament scene's not quite there yet, but I suppose the pro-ban side wants to preemptively stop the devolution which they see as inevitable. So give us solid reasoning that MK is dominant enough against his closest matchups that they don't stand a reasonable chance.

basically the way I see it we dont have to.
if we prove that he 70-30s every character except for like 2, than thats bannably broken
but i like what yuna said a while back.
in this situation all we have to do is prove that MK has the advantage (not a **** matchup just a noticable advantage) on the entire cast. if we prove that Mk has better than a 50-50 match than everybody in the game, than logically it only makes sence to play metaknight, even if its just 60-40. if he always, ALWAYS has the advantage, everyone will end up playing metaknight, because nobody wants to walk into a match knowing that they are at a disadvantage.
and if everyone is playing meta, he gets banned, its simple logic, soooo...

from now on, all I want people to do is give us people that they think go even with MK, and we will explain why that character is at a disadvantage.
because at the base level...
MK has advantage versus every other character= a banned metaknight

EDIT: my arguements were just as strong as OS's, its just that at times, i piggybacked off of what he said, which may give the idea that i cant debate on my own...lol

EDIT2: because of my religious backround, i enjoy debating on religion, its just that it works better on a 1 on 1 basis rather than a lot of people talking at once

 

[Johnknight1]

Arguments based on "but we might find new ATs in the future that will change everything" are dumb. Brawl has been under intense scrutiny for a long enough time that anything really significant has been found;

If that is true then how come a Melee technique was found POST-BRAWL'S RELEASE!?!?!?

I win...at something. FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!

Many Brawl techniques are being found STILL, and even if we run out of new techniques, strategic development is far from anywhere near it's meta game "end". That aside, we're barely in the tunnel in terms of Brawl's AT meta game, so what makes you think the light is so near if we're just now seeing it for the first time with Melee=???

This is funny 230 pages. Even if we do come to a conclusion, how would we enforce it? We're just a forum... We don't really control what TOs do.

We'd sway most big name tournies, but many would rebel so...it could go fairly good, or it could turn bad. REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BAD!

"But things have to get worse before they can get better."

 

[Grunt]

Originally Posted by choknater
Synopsis of this thread:

The points have all been covered to death, and there still isn't a consensus. Basically everyone is pushing their own view with VERY strong points and counter points... but the thread sways in favor of whoever is posting the most at the moment. If it's Yuna or Dojo or AlphaZealot or someone smart, it sways toward the non-banning party. If it's da K.I.D. or Overswarm, it sways toward the banning party.

Conclusion: Topic has been beaten to death, nothing is permanent until an SBR vote takes place.

I wonder if anyone caught the not-so-subtle way I introduced my own bias, hahahaa.

quoting a repost of a repost

 

[da K.I.D.]

If that is true then how come a Melee technique was found POST-BRAWL'S RELEASE!?!?!?

I win.

lol

that technique was found out years ago, its just that it was so point less and useless, that it just got named recently. did you even read the thread about it?

i think that means you lose

 

[brinboy789]

Synopsis of this thread:

The points have all been covered to death, and there still isn't a consensus. Basically everyone is pushing their own view with VERY strong points and counter points... but the thread sways in favor of whoever is posting the most at the moment. If it's Yuna or Dojo or AlphaZealot or someone smart, it sways toward the non-banning party. If it's da K.I.D. or Overswarm, it sways toward the banning party.

Conclusion: Topic has been beaten to death, nothing is permanent until an SBR vote takes place.

I wonder if anyone caught the not-so-subtle way I introduced my own bias, hahahaa.

^ = conclusion of thread.
i don think any argument is gonna do anything until we get to hear what the SBR says.

poor topic i didnt mean too

 

[da K.I.D.]

from now on, all I want people to do is give us people that they think go even with MK, and we will explain why that character is at a disadvantage.
because at the base level...
MK has advantage versus every other character= a banned metaknight

back to what you people are supposed to be doing

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If that is true then how come a Melee technique was found POST-BRAWL'S RELEASE!?!?!?

I win...at something. FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!

Many Brawl techniques are being found STILL, and even if we run out of new techniques, strategic development is far from anywhere near it's meta game "end". That aside, we're barely in the tunnel in terms of Brawl's AT meta game, so what makes you think the light is so near if we're just now seeing it for the first time with Melee=???



We'd sway most big name tournies, but many would rebel so...it could go fairly good, or it could turn bad. REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BAD!

"But things have to get worse before they can get better."

That wasn actually discovered years ago when shiek was still top tier but it just had some light shined upon when brawl came out. Other people have brought this up already so you don't win and the reason "we might find At's" doesn't work is because there is no way of knowing if we actually will and there is no grantee that more AT's = less broken MK.

 

[Grunt]

MK goes even with MK
NVM
MKboards says it's 45/55 MK's favor.

 

[GenesisJLS]

 

[NeoCrono]

Is SF4 good? I wanna play it.

it is REALLY good, they have it in china town in NY (Chinatown fair arcade)
I took a trip to play today, it cost $1 to play though lol. I'm gonna main as akuma lol.

 

[choknater]

da K.I.D. ... Maybe I'd understand and I'd give you more credit if you were actually really good with Metaknight... but all this trying to prove an arbitrary 60:40 or 55:45 doesn't really get you anywhere. Theorybros can only go so far, and I think when the top players really do have their say, they should be considered with the greatest authority. I don't know, that's just me. Azen, Dojo, and M2K, I'm sure none of them support the MK ban.

And NOBODY SAY IT'S BECAUSE THEY PLAY MK, because it isn't. That's just dumb, and smart pros like them are not gonna defend their character just because it's good.

They defend MK by saying that it's STILL POSSIBLE for them to lose using that character, and they themselves beat other Metaknights using their secondaries.

I don't really care much if MK doesn't have a 50:50. Who has the time to think about every matchup on every stage and every situation? Sheik on Norfair is excellent against Metaknight, and I'd do it against an MK opponent simply to throw him off. Is every single MK player going to be playing at the top potential of Metaknight all the time? No. Is every MK going to know every strategy that's going to be used against them, and prevail over every single one? Of course not, because strategies are constantly being developed.

Also, matchups are subjective.
I happen to think Sheik vs Ganon is 100:0. Nobody can prove me wrong, it's an opinion.

My opinion on Metaknight's evens:
Diddy Kong
Snake
Ice Climbers (i'm probably wrong here)
Yoshi
Kirby
Dedede

There are plenty.

And how can someone prove me wrong? With theory bros?
By referencing specific matches where MK ***** those characters?
By that same logic I can go on YouTube and find matches where MK is ***** by those characters.

Seriously, that's why this debate is never gonna end.

Neither side can be proven to be true.

What we need is an SBR VOTE.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

MK goes even with MK
NVM
MKboards says it's 45/55 MK's favor.

This is true 1st controller port has the priority advantage.

edit: SF4 got sakuraied though its slower now.

 

[DRaGZ]

MetaKnight's been banned in Japan? Aw shnapps.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Edit: I hadn't read the end of the thread before I finished this post, but this applies to your argument about him never being unbanned too, brinboy.


What part of my point made it sound like M2K would have to play MK to find out if an AT worked against him?

First, some random person of whatever skill level discovers an AT for a character that lets them break the normal spacings. It gets used at a few tournaments, and someone from the boards notices and posts about it. This provides that character a method of hitting people harder and from farther away than they could before. Someone tries it out against thier friends' Meta Knight, and the Meta Knight can't break through it. They post on the boards about this result. Better players test it, find it still works. Now the top level players might take a look at it, to see if this could be used to argue for unbanning their character.

So, what part of this chain falls apart? What do I have wrong, that this AT wouldn't be discovered and eventually applied to MK if he's banned? The AT would be found. The AT would eventually catch the boards' attention (And if it wouldn't, it wouldn't whether MK is banned or not) The AT would get tested against MK by some random board members, and found successful -- this is because people will not just forget MK. Then, if it is found successful, the higher players will check it out because there will be rumblings about unbanning MK because he finally has a counter.

Explain the flaw in my reasoning please, because you're insisting it has one.

...

That's the 10000 to 1 odds I'm talking about in case you didn't get that.

A technique with that dramatic effect has a reasonable chance of being tested against MK just because it's so dramatic.



The issue is, odds are, it's not going to be something like that which shifts the balance. It's going to be a number of minute things, including all the things that I mentioned previously, which would have the end result of moving things against MK.


That's where your reasoning breaks down, it only works for the least likely case that changes MK's status.

 

[NeoCrono]

SF4 got sakuraied though its slower now.

Ummmmm, I would beg to differ. It plays pretty fast lol, go to Chinatown and play it lol. (bring $1 and be prepared to wait in line forever!!!!)

 

[Grunt]

Ice Climbers (i'm probably wrong here)

IC infinite = 100:0 every matchup amirite?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

da K.I.D. ... Maybe I'd understand and I'd give you more credit if you were actually really good with Metaknight... but all this trying to prove an arbitrary 60:40 or 55:45 doesn't really get you anywhere. Theorybros can only go so far, and I think when the top players really do have their say, they should be considered with the greatest authority. I don't know, that's just me. Azen, Dojo, and M2K, I'm sure none of them support the MK ban.

And NOBODY SAY IT'S BECAUSE THEY PLAY MK, because it isn't. That's just dumb, and smart pros like them are not gonna defend their character just because it's good.

They defend MK by saying that it's STILL POSSIBLE for them to lose using that character, and they themselves beat other Metaknights using their secondaries.

I don't really care much if MK doesn't have a 50:50. Who has the time to think about every matchup on every stage and every situation? Sheik on Norfair is excellent against Metaknight, and I'd do it against an MK opponent simply to throw him off. Is every single MK player going to be playing at the top potential of Metaknight all the time? No. Is every MK going to know every strategy that's going to be used against them, and prevail over every single one? Of course not, because strategies are constantly being developed.

Also, matchups are subjective.
I happen to think Sheik vs Ganon is 100:0. Nobody can prove me wrong, it's an opinion.

My opinion on Metaknight's evens:
Diddy Kong
Snake
Ice Climbers (i'm probably wrong here)
Yoshi
Kirby
Dedede

There are plenty.

And how can someone prove me wrong? With theory bros?
By referencing specific matches where MK ***** those characters?
By that same logic I can go on YouTube and find matches where MK is ***** by those characters.

Seriously, that's why this debate is never gonna end.

Neither side can be proven to be true.

What we need is an SBR VOTE.

M2k and Dojo don't have secondaries. Azen couldn't beat lee Martin's MK with his actual main. I know he said hes the only one who does it but an MK still forced him to go MK or loose. I'm not to sure they are against the ban either.

MK does great on orphean many people have said that he has no bad stages even people that don't want him banned.

100:0 can easily be proven wrong if you play 100 matches against ganon and loose even 1 of them then your wrong.

Well at least you posted a list getting late so can't reply to it =\.

 

[DRaGZ]

Yes, Zangief's combos into throws are ridiculous now in SF4.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ummmmm, I would beg to differ. It plays pretty fast lol, go to Chinatown and play it lol. (bring $1 and be prepared to wait in line forever!!!!)

I played it at planet zero in hobo 11.