The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[cutter]

I've got a discard deck myself, Duels vs me take ages, and you still lose.

HAH, I forgot about Deliquent Duo; thanks for making a broken version of Hymn to Tourach Konami -_-

@ laki: Psychatog is a borderline broken card because it ends a game in one attack, but it's not as good as it used to be. Now there's split-second cards like Sudden Shock and Sudden Death.

 

[laki]

I wonder what the ratio is between people who play Magic, Yugioh, and Pokemon on SWF is cause they it seems conversations about these games pop up alot. And if this gets a reply, it should prolly be the last cause we are spamming the thread.

Relevant things to say...
Meta is broken. Ban him.

 

[Zankoku]

Let's play a game of tying my signature banner, Magic the Gathering, and Meta Knight all together in one post.

Arcbound Ravager was not exactly a broken card, and neither was the deck Ravager Affinity. During the Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard there were at least two other decks to compete with it. It was, however, by far the top aggro deck in the metagame, beating out even Goblins.
Then Onslaught rotated out and Kamigawa came in. Kamigawa kind of sucked. It was filled with mediocre to generally terrible cards, with only a few situationally good gems here and there. And so, in an environment where you had a choice between a bunch of bad cards that might be good, and Mirrodin.... people chose Mirrodin. Ravager Affinity and Tooth and Nail ruled, Tooth and Nail only because it used green and so had direct access to artifact hate.

However, in Legacy and even Extended, Ravager Affinity is not the dominating force. Thus proving that it was not a universally broken deck archetype, but simply a powerful deck that was a step above everything else in a relatively weak card pool of Kamigawa.

Meta Knight is a dominating force, to the point that characters unable to deal with Meta Knight to at least some extent are simply not a viable tournament choice if you want to place above dead last. Similar to Ravager Affinity, he is a step above a large portion of the cast, each of which is supported only by one or two actual high-level tournament players, compared to Meta Knight's player base of Mew2King, Lee Martin, Plank, DSF, and InfernalOmni. The character Meta Knight is not exactly broken, but he's been taken to a level far above and beyond at least 3/4 of the rest of the characters.

It's also worth noting that Wizards intiially tried to simply remove what appeared to be a vital part of Ravager Affinity rather than outright ban it from Standard - the card, Skullclamp. It didn't work.

 

[XienZo]

Hmmm... so you're saying MK partially good because more Pros play him?

Well, we have the:
"MK is too good only because so many pros use him"
and
"MK shouldn't be banned because there are still tons of pros who can beat him"

I don't think both can be right at the same time...

 

[laki]

Thanks for trying to inform me cutter but I do still keep up with competitive magic. When i said Mr. teeth was
broken, I was referring to in vintage were they decided to unrestrict gush to see what happened. Sure enough at the next big vintage tournament, everyone was playing Gush-Atog and not only did they re-restrict gush they also restricted merchant scroll, brainstorm(;-, and ponder(WTF SERIOUSLY!?) Though sudden shock did keep psychatog in check before people started playing counterbalance top(which interestingly enough was one of the factors in getting sensei's divining top banned recently)

 

[Zankoku]

I'm saying there's no way to prove exactly how good Meta Knight actually is compared to the rest of the cast because the rest of the cast has so little support, and the way things are going it can conceivably only get worse from here. It's disheartening, to say the least, but it does mean that Meta Knight cannot be banned just yet.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Ankoku. That post was pretty epic.

And stop lying to everyone. Everybody know that your more than just an ordinary magician.

 

[XienZo]

Thanks for trying to inform me cutter but I do still keep up with competitive magic. When i said Mr. teeth was
broken, I was referring to in vintage were they decided to unrestrict gush to see what happened. Sure enough at the next big vintage tournament, everyone was playing Gush-Atog and not only did they re-restrict gush they also restricted merchant scroll, brainstorm(;-, and ponder(WTF SERIOUSLY!?) Though sudden shock did keep psychatog in check before people started playing counterbalance top(which interestingly enough was one of the factors in getting sensei's divining top banned recently)

and thus, this proves that MK should be/not be banned because....

 

[Zankoku]

@Ankoku. That post was pretty epic.

And stop lying to everyone. Everybody know that your more than just an ordinary magician.

I'm potentially a cat.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm not sure that enough metagame exists in any competitive game, much less Brawl, to overcome Metaknight's obvious strengths.

I mean seriously. "Meta"game? "Meta"knight? Clearly broken.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^So you're a Druid?

And yeah, I agree that we can't ban Metaknight yet, because we still don't know for sure how the characters fare against him. I mean come on, apparently MK shuts down G&W now? When did that start happening?

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01416/

Sonic music is topsteak tier.

 

[AlexX]

I'm curious as to why comparing MK to Garchomp is deemed as stupid. He was very similar:

Garchomp (MK) was a very OP Pokemon (character). Garchomp could easily be brought in, could set up, and could sweep an entire team. If your team (character) was unprepared for Garchomp (3/4 of the cast of Brawl) you had a very good chance of losing the battle. Even if your team was prepared for Chomp (The 1/4 that stands a chance) he still had a very good chance of beating your team unless you completely outplayed your opponent (higher skill level). Chomp had no hard counters, only soft counters, and even then you would need multiple guys to take him out (A lamb to take one for the team, someone to activate the Yache, someone to take him out).

This made it so every team had to pretty much pack a wall with an ice move to break the Yache and, essentially, an ice sharder. It overcentralized, and took a ****e on the game's competitive aspect.

Tell me how this is a bad comparison.

It's a bad comparison because even with a 4x weakness, Garchomp was still fully capable of taking ice attacks and hitting the one dealing them for supereffective damage. Its moveset allowed it to use pretty much any major type (making prediction difficult), it could shrug off just about anything, and could easily level a whole team if you didn't at least have a decent amount of your team build up specifically to fight it.

Meanwhile, MK can be beaten by even those with a 6-4 disadvantage, because it's only a slight advantage on MK's part. Heck, I've seen some Ikes beat decent MKs before (take THAT Ike haters...), so a "soft counter" is hardly necissary. Garchomp, however, is incapable of losing to anything without a good ice move, and single-handedly destroyed the viability of a very large amount of otherwise perfectly viable pokemon (such as Magnezone, Lucario, Electrivire, etc.). MK doesn't do that, because nobody he makes unviable would suddenly become viable if he were out of the picture. Bad characters in Brawl are just that... bad.

EDIT: Holy crap this thread moves fast!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

don't ya think banning a character is too harsh.

You've never played people outside your 10 person town and wifi so you don't have a saying in this.

 

[comboking]

You've never played people outside your 10 person town and wifi so you don't have a saying in this.

shut up queer I live in a 15,000 plus town and i cant help where i was born you are such a *****

 

[Zankoku]

You can't help where you're born, but most people can help where they end up going.

 

[infomon]

seriously, though, what were they thinking, making a character whose EVERY SINGLE MOVE save throws can possibly kill you at 130

Bowser says hi.

Spoiler

Now if only he wasn't so bad :-(

Look at Mario, DK, Luigi, bowser, and Samus. Those characters get INFINITY'D by Dedede and he isn't banned. Dedede can chaingrab more than half the cast and it NEVER runs out, completely overpowered, yet he isn't banned. Falco, lucario, pikachu's chaingrabs at least end eventually at fair percents.

Ice Climbers say hi. They 0-death chaingrab everyone from pretty much everywhere. They're not banned, nor should they be.

for the record, i am astounded, ASTOUNDED at the number of sonic players that dont support the ban

this made me lol

Because the sonic players believe they can fight MK >_>

and this made me cry

Also, to everyone in this thread. Matchup numbers are not percentages. They only illustrate the severity of a matchup advantage. 60:40 does not mean 60% win ratio. It means slight advantage, and that if the players are equally skilled, the character with the advantage will win, barring some horrific fluke (trip into f-smash lol.) The matchup ratios indicate how large the skill gap between the players has to be for the player with the disadvantage to be able to even it out.

Oh, thanks for the info. But now I'm confused, you're saying the matchup numbers are supposed to measure the difference in player skill that needs to exist for one character to win against the other? I don't see how any quantification of player skill can make sense, like how we can go and "measure" the matchup between two characters if that's the basis for it. I hope there's a more concrete meaning than that.

If any Smash communities out there have banned MK, I feel like there has to be at least one out there, please share results of how characters have flourished or not. If there are people out there, who play at or near the highest levels of play who can show genuine proof that more characters than who are already out there become tournament potential* then it can be considered this early on. Without that kind of proof, it should be postponed until a lot more has been looked into.

What exactly would you be looking to verify, from observing communities where MK is banned? "More characters are flourishing"?? That doesn't justify a ban. We might see more viable characters around if we banned all of top and high tier, but that wouldn't make it right. Being the best character and being the most popular character, alone that's not enough to merit a ban.

Also, you used the word "proof" where you should have said "evidence", at best. A common mistake, but a bad one IMO.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I've got a discard deck myself, Duels vs me take ages, and you still lose. Trying to get a good Needle Worm strategy with the book of moon/toauyi, and it works well. I if I get all 3 needles on the field, instant deckout, if not... Duels take about 20 turns.

Kinda like MK, only real way to beat him, which doesn't even work half the time, is stalling with Falco I 'd guess? But even that doesn't work.

I have almost the same deck and i love taking forever to win just because they know after they draw 20 cards in a row with out being able to play any thing that the duel is over...lol

I kinda get what your saying. I always thought that yugioh should be like magic and have different formats like standard extended and legacy so that if you want you can choose between "fair," (lol i hate that word) games and broken ones (Psychatog)

they kinda do, we have restricted, which is basically what all the tournaments do and unrestricted where you can use raigeki "the weird red lightening card" and others to your hearts content but none of the tournaments allow unrestricted play because the cards and tactics are too broken and basically every single duel ends by the 4th turn (both players included, like 2 turns apiece) some cards are just too strong... things like the Egytian god cards, metamorphising for a double strength cyber twin dragon and that one dragon that let you pay life points to destroy your opponent's entire hand and field (which sets up for the yata-lock) were just too easy to implement. and therefore couldnt be used in a competitive environment because it eliminated all competition if you got the correct 6 cards in your opening hard, which wasnt difficult with cards like pot of greed floating around.





but youre right this is off topic. so let em bring it back...

basically im tired of people using the people still have even matches with MK defence.

its played out and is getting old.

Dojo came in here himself and said that santi beats every other MK except him. and that is because:
"lack of matchup knowledge counters everybody"
because seriously, who the hell still plays toon link. nobodys practicing for that matchup, so none of those MKs know how to fight santi, however, santi knows MK just as much as the people that are using him just because he plays with dojo all the time. WTF do you think is going to happen?
people dont realise that MK is NOT akuma style overpowered in every way. hes simply too good. sure some characters go even with him, when they are in their element, but MK excels at everything. so as soon as they get out of their element MK starts owning again
Wolf and Olimar go even with him, and snake may even beat him on stage, but what happens off stage...
MK *****...
Sonic and Peach can trade damage with him semi effectively, but what happens when it comes down to finishing the job
MK *****...
hes not blatently overpowered to a stupid extent, but hes is too good to be put in 1 on 1 competition on a fair battleground.

 

[comboking]

yah but im not old enough to drive im only 14

 

[XienZo]

Wolf and Olimar go even with him, and snake may even beat him on stage, but what happens off stage...
MK *****...
Sonic and Peach can trade damage with him semi effectively, but what happens when it comes down to finishing the job
MK *****...
hes not blatently overpowered to a stupid extent, but hes is too good to be put in 1 on 1 competition on a fair battleground.

We find a place where there is no off stage and upward kills are the way to go.

 

[ice-]

Arcbound Ravager was not exactly a broken card, and neither was the deck Ravager Affinity. During the Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard there were at least two other decks to compete with it. It was, however, by far the top aggro deck in the metagame, beating out even Goblins.
Then Onslaught rotated out and Kamigawa came in. Kamigawa kind of sucked. It was filled with mediocre to generally terrible cards, with only a few situationally good gems here and there. And so, in an environment where you had a choice between a bunch of bad cards that might be good, and Mirrodin.... people chose Mirrodin. Ravager Affinity and Tooth and Nail ruled, Tooth and Nail only because it used green and so had direct access to artifact hate.

However, in Legacy and even Extended, Ravager Affinity is not the dominating force. Thus proving that it was not a universally broken deck archetype, but simply a powerful deck that was a step above everything else in a relatively weak card pool of Kamigawa.

Meta Knight is a dominating force, to the point that characters unable to deal with Meta Knight to at least some extent are simply not a viable tournament choice if you want to place above dead last. Similar to Ravager Affinity, he is a step above a large portion of the cast, each of which is supported only by one or two actual high-level tournament players, compared to Meta Knight's player base of Mew2King, Lee Martin, Plank, DSF, and InfernalOmni. The character Meta Knight is not exactly broken, but he's been taken to a level far above and beyond at least 3/4 of the rest of the characters.

It's also worth noting that Wizards intiially tried to simply remove what appeared to be a vital part of Ravager Affinity rather than outright ban it from Standard - the card, Skullclamp. It didn't work.

Honestly this isn't true. Comparing formats in magic is like comparing Teams to 1 v 1. They are vastly different games. Also, skullclamp was banned b/c it was broken in every deck. I believe there is a reason more great players are going towards metaknight, just as they did with shiek, marth, fox, falco. Its b/c he is leagues better than the other characters in the cast.

 

[AlexX]

You can't help where you're born, but most people can help where they end up going.

Yup, because you can always go where you want to go and be who you want to be~ (Yes, I love that song)

 

[Zankoku]

I play a ****ing land and tap it for mana in every format of Magic, except for Vintage where I play several Moxen and a Black Lotus. It's the same game.

I attack the opposing player until I win the game in both doubles and singles. It's the same game.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Is there anyone who goes to and does well or fairly well at in-person tourneys with a character other than metaknight who believes that MK should NOT be banned?


@ Sonic players- Don't be idiots. MK destroys sonic. You only do semi-alright against bad to decent Mk's because they are on the ground laughing so hard at your pathetic character that they forget actually fight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bowser says hi.

Spoiler

Now if only he wasn't so bad :-(

moves that bowser wont kill with at 130 that snake will...
jab combo
f-tilt/down tilt (both are iffy for bowser
down air
neutral air
neutral b

moves that snake has that are noticibly stronger than bowser
f-tilt
down tilt
back air
f-smash (yes bowsers is strong, but snakes is a lot stronger)

moves that bowser has that are noticibly stronger than snake
u-smash (the opposite of forward smash, snakes is still strong)
up b (lolololololol)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh, thanks for the info. But now I'm confused, you're saying the matchup numbers are supposed to measure the difference in player skill that needs to exist for one character to win against the other? I don't see how any quantification of player skill can make sense, like how we can go and "measure" the matchup between two characters if that's the basis for it. I hope there's a more concrete meaning than that.

There really isn't. 6-4 means that you have to be a little better than your opponent in order to overcome the character disadvantage. 7-3, you have to be a lot more skilled. And so on.

7-3 and up matchups should actually never be won if the two players are even close in skill level, it's not 80%-20%

The numbers are really just comparing matchup difficulties against each other, using the mirror as a basis for a perfect 50:50 matchup. Difficulties are of course subjective, but hopefully the collective opinions of the best players is somewhere close to the truth.

@ Sonic players- Don't be idiots. MK destroys sonic. You only do semi-alright against bad to decent Mk's because they are on the ground laughing so hard at your pathetic character that they forget actually fight.

Didn't we just say that MK was an 8-2 matchup? What part of this are people not getting? We know MK ***** Sonic, we just hope that the majority of MK players don't know how when we go to tournaments.

 

[da K.I.D.]

We find a place where there is no off stage and upward kills are the way to go.

if you are implying shadow moses, you do realise that Mk can easily pull off a jab infinite on the walls with out destroying them right?

Is there anyone who goes to and does well or fairly well at in-person tourneys with a character other than metaknight who believes that MK should NOT be banned?


@ Sonic players- Don't be idiots. MK destroys sonic. You only do semi-alright against bad to decent Mk's because they are on the ground laughing so hard at your pathetic character that they forget actually fight.

I really REALLY HATE F**KING PEOPLE LIKE THIS!!!

are you ********?
have you not been paying attention?
im sorry do you know that matchup?
do you know what sonics say about that match?
do you know how to effing read?

the only people that say that sonic players think they have a chance versus meta knight, are people THAT DONT EVEN PLAY EFFING SONIC!!!
seriously you need to STFU and GTFO so just incase you werent paying attention, my next post will have nothing but what actual sonic players say about MK

 

[Red Exodus]

Why ban him? It's not our fault they ****ed up balancing so bad.

 

[hotgarbage]

@ Sonic players- Don't be idiots. MK destroys sonic. You only do semi-alright against bad to decent Mk's because they are on the ground laughing so hard at your pathetic character that they forget actually fight.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic gets ***** by competent MKs...

Hell, even good Sonics can be beaten by scrubby MKs. It's a tough match regardless of how careful Sonic is.

So, yeah, gtfo ssbbfiction.

and lol, I forgot MK could infinite against the walls...my mistake.

There really is no stage unfitting for MKs...how lame.

 

[kr3wman]

There really isn't. 6-4 means that you have to be a little better than your opponent in order to overcome the character disadvantage. 7-3, you have to be a lot more skilled. And so on.

7-3 and up matchups should actually never be won if the two players are even close in skill level, it's not 80%-20%

This sounds false to me. There is no reasoning behind why they put numbers with your explication, which would be better off with Very Good/Good/Neutral/Bad/Very Bad/Impossible for names. The numbers are there for a reason.

A 7-3 matchup means equally skilled players will win those matches out of 10 games in a row. Not the percentage of what the gap is before you can beat your opponent.

 

[XienZo]

I still stand by shadow moses island.... but I'm being biased since Olimar can't get CG while he can't get gimped on SMI...

 

[hotgarbage]

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic cannot approach.

Because the sonic players believe they can fight MK >_>

Where do ******** comments like these come from?

We can't, don't put words into our mouths >_>

All I've said regarding Sonic v MK is that it's not Sonic's worst match-up, which granted, it isn't through the opinion of most if not all Sonic mains. It's Wario. Wario can bite my ***.

Read ShadowLinks sig. We KNOW we suck.
The Sonic players that are still left probably realize that you can WIN with disadvantages. You have to be SMART though. We have disadvantages to nearly EVERYONE. What's another brick in the wall?

gameset...

Spoiler

jackoff

 

[da K.I.D.]

This sounds false to me. There is no reasoning behind why they put numbers with your explication, which would be better off with Very Good/Good/Neutral/Bad/Very Bad/Impossible for names. The numbers are there for a reason.

A 7-3 matchup means equally skilled players will win those matches out of 10 games in a row. Not the percentage of what the gap is before you can beat your opponent.

trufax

too too good

 

[Dark Sonic]

This sounds false to me. There is no reasoning behind why they put numbers with your explication, which would be better off with Very Good/Good/Neutral/Bad/Very Bad/Impossible for names. The numbers are there for a reason.

A 7-3 matchup means equally skilled players will win those matches out of 10 games in a row. Not the percentage of what the gap is before you can beat your opponent.

No it really is not a win:lose ratio. 6:4 litterally means slight advantage/soft counter. It does not mean 60% chance to win. What it means is that if you are equally skilled with your opponent, then you will win, barring some stage disadvantage, random event, ect. If your opponent is a little bit better than you, then the match could go either way (6:4 is only winnable because of the fact that player skill fluctuates as part of being human).

Why do we use numbers? For no other reason than quick notation and a quick and easy way to compare matchups.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Didn't we just say that MK was an 8-2 matchup? What part of this are people not getting? We know MK ***** Sonic, we just hope that the majority of MK players don't know how when we go to tournaments.

Ah. Okay. Thank you for clearing up what you guys were apparently trying to say. Several sonics have been really annoying me lately with their talk of how sonic should easily be able to fight mk's because of absolutely stupid reasons. I was getting that sort of vibe from this thread as well.

No, I don't hate sonic and there are some very good sonic players. I understand now what you guys are getting at. da K.I.D., just chill man. As long as you guys accept what your character is, than more power to you. I'm just tired of sonics claiming that they can easily take on all MK's for some unknown amazing reason.

 

[Ussi]

>_____> People what i said about Sonic players thinking they can fight MK was a joke....

 

[kr3wman]

No it really is not a win:lose ratio. 6:4 litterally means slight advantage/soft counter. It does not mean 60% win ratio.

Why do we use numbers? For no other reason than quick notation and a quick and easy way to compare matchups.

Dude, people started using numbers for matchups as early as SF2, and at that time, and still now, they meant how much matches out of ten you would win.

Not silly ''Well, it's a soft counter'' stuff. Grow up.

 

[laki]

Zomg sonic pwnz metakinghts all uz need to do is uz teh finalz smash.

Seriously though I've never seen a good sonic play and if I wanted to who would you sonic mains suggest.

 

[laki]

I heard EL say that if you play smart with in 4:6 match up you can win one set but that you start to really see the effects after playing several sets and start to have your as handed to you.

sorry for double post won't happen again