The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[ShadowLink84]

Red Eyes Metal Darkness Dragon
Judgement Dragon
Dark armed Dragon
Dark magician of Chaos
Disk Commander

yeah make you cry.

 

[salaboB]

the reason it is accurate is because it is a fighting game.
Much of the rules governing what to ban or not to ban is very general and not specific to one genre or another.
Granted some tihngs are different but in general they are the same.

So its always okay to compare MK to Dark armed dragon or Akuma, or Old sagat, or Storm, or Yun.

Not those specifically but the degree.

This isn't necessarily true. Brawl has significantly more shallow gameplay than most of them. It also has an entirely different damage-combat change structure, and a great deal more variety for stages that combat takes place on that noticably shift character effectiveness. I suspect Brawl's overall slower combat pace and lack of serious punishment for most mistakes also plays into this, as a 60:40 matchup provides more time for that 60 to gain the advantage, because single mistakes usually lead to less punishment than they do in other games. This may be the critical thing I was trying to explain before, so I'll take it down below.

For a character to dominate and then ruin the tournament scene in it may very well not require them to win every match as overbearingly as one of those other banned characters. That is in fact what we're seeing happening.

I also don't believe that 60:40 matchups in Brawl, given the current tournament rules, are 60:40. What I believe happens is that people tend to judge the matchup based on single stock matches -- if these two characters are fighting, odds are that the stronger gets first KO 60% of the time, and the weaker manages 40%. But when the game drags out over multiple stocks, with all the maneuvering it has and lack of instant-stock loss for the majority of mistakes, that 60 will start to gain an advantage that ends up being a higher win rate than their matchup indicates. So, what I'm saying is that I don't know if the people most skilled at judging matchups have adjusted their criteria for a full Brawl match or are looking at them the way they used to work, where mistakes could be punished with deadly results so the character advantage didn't cover over them as effectively. That's also why MK being 60:40 to characters is letting him defeat players better than the MK with such effectiveness, imo.

Yeah. Why BOTHER unbanning him if everyone cept MK mains are happy?

I would argue to unban him if he were banned and something shifted enough that the ban conditions no longer applied. Frankly, it is more diverse to have everyone available. Even one banned character reduces diversity, and it's not that I want him gone but that I think he needs to be for the sake of the competitive game.

 

[Zelc]

So what of the 'Dedede rule' in advanced slobs counterpicks?
When the stage is selected by the loser, what happens if the opposing player says 'Oh, well I want to use Dedede'?

This raises a problem.

Well, I'd think the MK issue is worse. With the DDD rule, at least they can't pick DDD after a stage is picked (if that's how it works?). On the other hand, let's say you pick one of the MK unbanned stages. Your opponent picks a character other than MK. Is the stage you picked a banned stage or not?

 

[Punishment Divine]

Ankoku..... your sig makes me sad. <3 Affinity.


Although Ravager was too much....

Ravager was wayyy too much lol.

I'm curious as to why comparing MK to Garchomp is deemed as stupid. He was very similar:

Garchomp (MK) was a very OP Pokemon (character). Garchomp could easily be brought in, could set up, and could sweep an entire team. If your team (character) was unprepared for Garchomp (3/4 of the cast of Brawl) you had a very good chance of losing the battle. Even if your team was prepared for Chomp (The 1/4 that stands a chance) he still had a very good chance of beating your team unless you completely outplayed your opponent (higher skill level). Chomp had no hard counters, only soft counters, and even then you would need multiple guys to take him out (A lamb to take one for the team, someone to activate the Yache, someone to take him out).

This made it so every team had to pretty much pack a wall with an ice move to break the Yache and, essentially, an ice sharder. It overcentralized, and took a ****e on the game's competitive aspect.

Tell me how this is a bad comparison.

 

[Vyse]

Well, I'd think the MK issue is worse. With the DDD rule, at least they can't pick DDD after a stage is picked (if that's how it works?). On the other hand, let's say you pick one of the MK unbanned stages. Your opponent picks a character other than MK. Is the stage you picked a banned stage or not?

But see, that's the point of it.

One player must confirm that they have chosen Metaknight before those stages may be unbanned.

I think we need clarification on the Dedede rule.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This isn't necessarily true. Brawl has significantly more shallow gameplay than most of them. It also has an entirely different damage-combat change structure, and a great deal more variety for stages that combat takes place on that noticably shift character effectiveness. I suspect Brawl's overall slower combat pace and lack of serious punishment for most mistakes also plays into this, as a 60:40 matchup provides more time for that 60 to gain the advantage, because single mistakes usually lead to less punishment than they do in other games. This may be the critical thing I was trying to explain before, so I'll take it down below.

Wrong.
The depth of the ame is entirely unimportant.
Guilty gear is extremely deep, much moreso than melee, SF2, and SF3.
Does this necessarily mean the laws of banning change?
Not at all.
Yes you do have changes such as the stages interacting with the combatants but this is why it leads to stages being categorized as neutral (none or little interference) counterpicks (some interference beneficial to one character) and banned.

The entire structure of the competitive scene for Bral allows it to be structured in such a fashion.
While there are noticeable differences such as health, method of defeating the opponent, the basic gameplay is the same as well as the requirements for banning.

Despite the changes of brawl compared to a game like Tekken, the bannings rules are the same because they need to be.
overcentralizations kills any game's competitive ability.
yes it is true there are differences but these changes do not influence the requirements for a ban.

hence why yu-g-oh, magic the gathering, SF2, SF3 all have the same banning criteria. (they vary slightly)

For a character to dominate and then ruin the tournament scene in it may very well not require them to win every match as overbearingly as one of those other banned characters. That is in fact what we're seeing happening.

Correct. Hence the issue with Dark armed dragon, judgement dragon based decks as well as most recent, Gladiator Beast decks.

The criteria for banning are the same the methods of performing the ban differ slightly.

I also don't believe that 60:40 matchups in Brawl, given the current tournament rules, are 60:40. What I believe happens is that people tend to judge the matchup based on single stock matches -- if these two characters are fighting, odds are that the stronger gets first KO 60% of the time, and the weaker manages 40%. But when the game drags out over multiple stocks, with all the maneuvering it has and lack of instant-stock loss for the majority of mistakes, that 60 will start to gain an advantage that ends up being a higher win rate than their matchup indicates. So, what I'm saying is that I don't know if the people most skilled at judging matchups have adjusted their criteria for a full Brawl match or are looking at them the way they used to work, where mistakes could be punished with deadly results so the character advantage didn't cover over them as effectively. That's also why MK being 60:40 to characters is letting him defeat players better than the MK with such effectiveness, imo.

In no way do they base it on just single stock matches.
They base it on a standard format.

And yes what you are stating is some theory (which name I forgot)

The loger it plys out the more rominent the advantage is.

a match is 60:40 in theory and show it as it progresses.
I must go now. see you tomorrow.

 

[salaboB]

But see, that's the point of it.

One player must confirm that they have chosen Metaknight before those stages may be unbanned.

I think we need clarification on the Dedede rule.

How is this different from just banning Meta Knight's b moves, in effect? It's a handicap aimed only at him.

In no way do they base it on just single stock matches.
They base it on a standard format.

Have the matchups ever been demonstrated to match, at the top end, what people think they are?

Particularily MK, nobody seems to have proved that he's only got the advantages his matchup chart (Wherever it might be) should indicate he has. If this is inaccurate, what's to stop most matchups from being inaccurate for amount of bonuses either?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Red Eyes Metal Darkness Dragon
Judgement Dragon
Dark armed Dragon
Dark magician of Chaos
Disk Commander

They banned Dark Armed Dragon?!?!

Noooooooooo!!!!

I mean I knew it was bad, but I never imagined they'd just straight out ban him (I thought they would just limit him to one per deck or something.)

And speaking of Yu-gi-oh, if they banned Disk Commander and Dark Magician of Chaos, then shouldn't they re-ban monster reborn? I mean, they pretty much only brought it back to combat those two cards, but now that they're gone...Why's Monster Reborn still here?

Also, to everyone in this thread. Matchup numbers are not percentages. They only illustrate the severity of a matchup advantage. 60:40 does not mean 60% win ratio. It means slight advantage, and that if the players are equally skilled, the character with the advantage will win, barring some horrific fluke (trip into f-smash lol.) The matchup ratios indicate how large the skill gap between the players has to be for the player with the disadvantage to be able to even it out.

 

[Vyse]

How is this different from just banning Meta Knight's b moves, in effect? It's a handicap aimed only at him.

So is the Dedede stage ban list. And yet, that was allowed.

This removes any kind of character tampering, in favour of presenting stage based conditions which are effectively anti-metaknight.

 

[DRaGZ]

Red Eyes Metal Darkness Dragon
Judgement Dragon
Dark armed Dragon
Dark magician of Chaos
Disk Commander

yeah make you cry.

omg YGO.

I used to run a badass rapid-burn deck before I quit.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So is the Dedede stage ban list. And yet, that was allowed.

What Dedede stage ban list?

 

[salaboB]

So is the Dedede stage ban list. And yet, that was allowed.

This removes any kind of character tampering, in favour of presenting stage based conditions which are effectively anti-metaknight.

According to their board, MK can't be cg'ed by Dedede. Will this even be a significant disadvantage for him, or will it just let him herd Dedede over to an edge for an easy KO?

 

[Dark Sonic]

And neither of those stages seem anti MK anyway. (Well, maybe Shadow Moses, but I can't think of any character that would be able to effectively use that stage against Metaknight).

 

[Punishment Divine]

And neither of those stages seem anti MK anyway. (Well, maybe Shadow Moses, but I can't think of any character that would be able to effectively use that stage against Metaknight).

Snake's monstrous u tilt says hi

 

[Dark Sonic]

Snake's monstrous u tilt says hi

MK could also just juggle snake rediculously easy on that stage, since it's not exactly easy to get down from platforms against MK, and Snake is already easy to juggle in the first place.

Also, wall teching says high.

 

[Plum]

Then you haven't fought good enough players with those characters. Saying no to falco just shows You make no sense. He has a free 0-50 % on every single MK life. Only 50 % left to go then he is in kill range.

And 55:45 is arguably even. There is STILL more tactics waiting to be discovered.

He is the Shiek of Brawl. Plays well against alot of characters, hardly any bad matchups, players wanted him banned, etc etc..... same old thing.

Was Shiek banned? exactly

Was Shiek the top ranked character in the entire game?
Shiek was relatively easy to pick up and be good at, even towards higher levels of game play, so is MK but the key difference is that Shiek did not have the overall dominance of the cast like MK does at the current metagame. Neither did the space animals in Melee who were the two top ranked characters as of the last tier list.

If any Smash communities out there have banned MK, I feel like there has to be at least one out there, please share results of how characters have flourished or not. If there are people out there, who play at or near the highest levels of play who can show genuine proof that more characters than who are already out there become tournament potential* then it can be considered this early on. Without that kind of proof, it should be postponed until a lot more has been looked into.

*Yes, every character has the potential to win a tournament if you put enough work and practice in. I know. Don't bring that up.

 

[Ussi]

wait why is/was monster reborn banned? [/off topic]

And doesn't MK have a dtilt on the wall that hits for like 5-7 hits before DIing out?

 

[DRaGZ]

A better question would be: why was Monster Reborn unbanned?

 

[Dark Sonic]

wait why is/was monster reborn banned? [/off topic]

Monster reborn was banned because it had no cost and let you bring back your opponent's monsters.

It seems weird to me that Premature burial and Call of the Haunted are both banned but Monster Reborn isn't, despite both being less broken cards (well, I guess I can understand Call of the Haunted. Sort of).

Also, how many times has breaker been banned an unbanned? lol.

And I just checked Shadowlink, Dark Armed Dragon isn't banned. It's semilimited.

Cyber Dragon is limited to 1 also (about **** time)

 

[Vyse]

What Dedede stage ban list?

back in the earlier days, to deal with the problem of Dedede's chainthrow against a wall/walkoff, they banned certain stages IF Dedede was chosen by either of the players.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That didn't work did it? So if it didn't work with DDD, why would it work with MK?

 

[Vyse]

^^That didn't work did it? So if it didn't work with DDD, why would it work with MK?

It did work.



We just need much more clarified rules.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wait, it worked and it's not in the SBR's ruleset now?

 

[Ussi]

Monster reborn was banned because it had no cost and let you bring back your opponent's monsters.

It seems weird to me that Premature burial and Call of the Haunted are both banned but Monster Reborn isn't, despite both being less broken cards (well, I guess I can understand Call of the Haunted. Sort of).

Also, how many times has breaker been banned an unbanned? lol.

And I just checked Shadowlink, Dark Armed Dragon isn't banned. It's semilimited.

Cyber Dragon is limited to 1 also (about **** time)

Getting you're opponent's monster is broken?

I never was a YGO person, I did watch the anime when i was a kid >_> and had a GBA game thats about it though so I'm a n00b at YGO

 

[DRaGZ]

Ussi, they basically got rid of cards that had awesome effects with basically no costs or repercussions. Even cards like Dark Hole and Cyber Jar are banned like this because their cost is actually considered too minimal to matter.

 

[Vyse]

Wait, it worked and it's not in the SBR's ruleset now?

I think the SBR saw this, and decided to implement a stage list that worked around Dedede. eliminating the need for it.

 

[Ussi]

Ussi, they basically got rid of cards that had awesome effects with basically no costs or repercussions. Even cards like Dark Hole and Cyber Jar are banned like this because their cost is actually considered too minimal to matter.

Cyber jar was soooo annoying omg~~ (GBA NPC abused it)

What about the eird red lighting card-

as much as I'd like to go being more of a YGO n00b and ask the stupidest things this is not the place.



back to banning/not banning MK

 

[Dark Sonic]

Getting you're opponent's monster is broken?

You could get either a monster from your graveyard or a monster from your opponent's graveyard. With absolutely no cost and no downside involved.

Let's say your opponent has a powerfull monster on the field (I don't know Jinzo or something).

Fissure/smashing/one of a billion ways to destroy it->Monster Reborn.

Or in the case of Magician of Black Chaos (probably what got it banned actually.)

Foolish burial/armagedon knight/anyway to send it from your deck to the graveyard->monster reborn->use Dark Magician of Black Chaos's effect to get back monster reborn from your graveyard (unless you want to get a different magic card, but why would you?)->monster reborn on a different monster.

edit: darn it, you beat me to it.

I still don't know why they didn't ban monster reborn and bring back premature burial (it has a cost and restrictions while Monster Reborn doesn't), but whatever.

 

[ph00tbag]

Ravager was wayyy too much lol.

I'm curious as to why comparing MK to Garchomp is deemed as stupid. He was very similar:

Garchomp (MK) was a very OP Pokemon (character). Garchomp could easily be brought in, could set up, and could sweep an entire team. If your team (character) was unprepared for Garchomp (3/4 of the cast of Brawl) you had a very good chance of losing the battle. Even if your team was prepared for Chomp (The 1/4 that stands a chance) he still had a very good chance of beating your team unless you completely outplayed your opponent (higher skill level). Chomp had no hard counters, only soft counters, and even then you would need multiple guys to take him out (A lamb to take one for the team, someone to activate the Yache, someone to take him out).

This made it so every team had to pretty much pack a wall with an ice move to break the Yache and, essentially, an ice sharder. It overcentralized, and took a ****e on the game's competitive aspect.

Tell me how this is a bad comparison.

I think a lot of people actually take issue with putting Garchomp in Uber in the first place. Taking a debatable ban by a notoriously draconian community as an example won't really prove the point against more libertarian elements of our community.

 

[laki]

I haven't played YGO in years but one of the reasons i quit was because they kept banning good cards. I mean it's not like once you monster reborn something that it becomes that hard to kill again. I also quit YGO cause magic the gathering is a superior game and you can make big money playing it. How did this discussion get here anyways? I sstarted skipping after 210. What are the current arguments against unbanning.

 

[XienZo]

And neither of those stages seem anti MK anyway. (Well, maybe Shadow Moses, but I can't think of any character that would be able to effectively use that stage against Metaknight).

Olimar without gimp equals epic win vs MK.

Actually, I'm not sure, but Olimar isn't that bad against MK right now, and gimping is Olimar's worst weakness and MK's greatest strength.

So it'll umm... at least make MK wary of Olimar

 

[salaboB]

Olimar without gimp equals epic win vs MK.

Actually, I'm not sure, but Olimar isn't that bad against MK right now, and gimping is Olimar's worst weakness and MK's greatest strength.

So it'll umm... at least make MK wary of Olimar

I believe I read that MK could back Olimar up to the edge where he couldn't pivot grab anymore, and then Olimar ran out of effective defensive options. So the same would apply except you could conceivably just walk him off (Unless the walls were up on Shadow Moses, then you could hammer him against the wall)

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

bento box, play atlantis RO with me u ***** *** *****


hit me up on AIM asap, it's a hella fun server


AIM: mcabreact
MSN: mcabreact@yahoo.com


this is NEO from melee *****

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It's just that the idea of having a benifit with absolutely no cost at all seems kinda...broken. And the thing about Yu-gi-oh is that duels end in one turn very often (I don't mean like 1 turn from the start of the match. I mean that the damage is all delt at once). The most succesfull decks are those that sweep the opponent in one attack, so something like Monster reborn can be a big boon to that strategy.

Sure the monster is easily destroyed by the next turn, but there won't be a next turn most of the time. You use Dark Armed Dragon to destroy their field, then you monster reborn/dimmension fusion (this one's actually more usefull in a Dark Armed Dragon deck) and win that turn. Pretty cool.

Eh... I never really got into Magic. I know it's a great game, but I just haven't bought Magic Cards. I pretty much quit Yu-gi-oh too, but I've got a friend that still plays (and places really well too), so he fills me in on stuff.

 

[Vyse]

Wtf?

*saves Neo's AIM*

 

[XienZo]

Yeah, I was talking out of theoritical-ness, and I haven't had too much actual experience on that.

Nevertheless, it'd take quite some time to pressure Olimar to the end of SMI compared to a non-walkoff stage since the distance is like smashville with a BF on each side, and Olimar can shield without fear of being knocked off the stage, and Olimar players abuse the shield a lot against MKs.

 

[cutter]

Monster Reborn = Reanimate on crack
Raigeki = 0 mana Plague Wind (costs NINE mana in MTG for the same effect)
Dark Hole = 0 mana Wrath of God
Pot of Greed = 0 mana pseudo-Ancestral Recall
Cyber Jar = Wrath of God on crack
Change of Heart = 0 mana Ray of Command

I played Yugioh a bit to take a minor break from Magic the Gathering but I quickly found out the game was completely broken. Without a mana system, there was pretty much no restrictions on playing cards other than "sac a monster" for a few fatties like Summon Skull and Jinzo.

My friend had a super-power deck that basically went like this:
- Gemini Elf, go
- Genewarped Werewolf, Snatch Steal your face down monster, crush you for 3900.
- Next turn Raigeki and deal lethal damage to your LP. Good game.

It didn't help when new sets of Yugioh came out with unbelievably situational cards like all the Elemental Hero **** and stuff like that... it was so inferior compared to all the brokenness.

Reminds me of the days when you could play "I win" cards in MTG like Yawgmoth's Will Win and Tinker.

 

[comboking]

don't ya think banning a character is too harsh.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I've got a discard deck myself, Duels vs me take ages, and you still lose. Trying to get a good Needle Worm strategy with the book of moon/toauyi, and it works well. I if I get all 3 needles on the field, instant deckout, if not... Duels take about 20 turns.

Kinda like MK, only real way to beat him, which doesn't even work half the time, is stalling with Falco I 'd guess? But even that doesn't work.

 

[laki]

Monster Reborn = Reanimate on crack
Raigeki = 0 mana Plague Wind (costs NINE mana in MTG for the same effect)
Dark Hole = 0 mana Wrath of God
Pot of Greed = 0 mana pseudo-Ancestral Recall
Cyber Jar = Wrath of God on crack
Change of Heart = 0 mana Ray of Command

I played Yugioh a bit to take a minor break from Magic the Gathering but I quickly found out the game was completely broken. Without a mana system, there was pretty much no restrictions on playing cards other than "sac a monster" for a few fatties like Summon Skull and Jinzo.

My friend had a super-power deck that basically went like this:
- Gemini Elf, go
- Genewarped Werewolf, Snatch Steal your face down monster, crush you for 3900.
- Next turn Raigeki and deal lethal damage to your LP. Good game.

It didn't help when new sets of Yugioh came out with unbelievably situational cards like all the Elemental Hero **** and stuff like that... it was so inferior compared to all the brokenness.

Reminds me of the days when you could play "I win" cards in MTG like Yawgmoth's Will Win and Tinker.

I kinda get what your saying. I always thought that yugioh should be like magic and have different formats like standard extended and legacy so that if you want you can choose between "fair," (lol i hate that word) games and broken ones (Psychatog)