The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[TheBuzzSaw]

The SBR only suggests whatever it decides it what it decides. it is up to the TO's on whether or not they follow it.

Exxxxxxxxxactly. I just wanna see how the public community votes.

 

[Plum]

So after all the years Brawl was in development. Sakuai decided to add a character that had very few bad matchups and a character who could completly destroy a large number of the Smash Bros Cast? I doubt it. Maybe we aren't seeing something and thats why we say MK is broken. He is not the Broken Akuma of Smash Bros. He isn't godly. He has Godly moves yes, but he is not godly. At the highest level of play you should already know that their are no easy matchups, that winning is not guarented. You must face the fact that BS will happen. That your opponent could be playing an OP Character. The fact is that most PLAYERS can not handle MK moveset while in the control of a high level player. There is a counter to MK broken moves, but it's the way MK is being played that make him broken. Thats when you hear someone complain about MK has a (Insert broken move here) (insert what broken moves does here)
Then to hear people complain about their charcter has a tough time with MK. Captain Falcon will automatically have a tough time against MK. He has no good approach on him. He has piss poor prority. CF has nothing good against MK your bound to have 1 hell of a time against him. But thats off subject. Just an Example.
I say no, MK should not be banned. Deleting a part of Brawl just dosen't feel right.

Sakurai was trying to make a balanced game, so he left MK in there for some reason. But the problem is that Sakurai doesn't want the Smash series to be a hardcore competitive game. He would rather it be a fun pick it up and enjoy yourself game. MK is a balanced character for the game he made. The game we play, he dominates. First time players can take any character, and have a good chance of winning because at the lowest, perhaps mid levels of play the characters remain balanced for the most part. This is how all fighter games start, and where Sakurai would have liked Brawl to stay. What he saw is that MK is fast dash, weak moves, slow aerial speed etc. What we see at the high, and top level play is that he dominates in all aspects. Once ATs, proper move usage, mind games etc. tossed in it becomes very hard to beat.

Japan had a softcore ban on Akuma, that worked just fine for their scene, while America chose a hardcore. I personally warrant a softcore at the most in the future, but in all honesty, how many players will go with that when they have invested there time into perfecting MK? My guess is that most wouldn't mind the bad mouthing if it meant they dominated their region.

It is way too early to say anything though. I hate MK. Enough said on that, but he doesn't quite break Brawl yet. Give it time, then continue to ***** if you must.

 

[oxhaseokunxo]

I feel that Meta Knight could quite easily be on the verge of being banned but if we begin to ban characters it could qutie easily ruin the game of Smash.

From personal experience when entering competitions as a Snake mainer I find that Meta Knight is quite simply one of the most B-reliant characters meeting the standards of many low end Lucas and Falco players (spammers). The way they resort to insufficient repetetiveness of MT as soon as they are a stock down they begin to break matches with delays.

All I have left to say is that Meta Knight is as broken as they come apart from maybe Snakes U-Tilt.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Why do people suggest soft bans? You can't just declare a soft ban, soft bans happen on their own when the top echelon of players decide to not use a character anymore for it's "cheapness" or any other reason. Maybe they just like more character variety. But they didn't all dit down one day and agree to explicitly not use it. It just happens.

 

[salaboB]

I think you're misunderstanding me, so let me make this clear.

There are 4 main things that would change the situation with MK.

1. A number of character-specific advantages (either ATs or new appications of general principals). It would have to be found on a great number of characters and push his match-ups to a certain point, but it is doable. Note: These could either be available to single characters or a group of characters (ex. crawldashing).

2. A general AT that is useful ONLY against MK and pushes his match-ups to a certain point.

3. A general AT that is useful against everyone and has the side-effect of hurting MK's match-ups rather drastically.

4. Any combination of the above 3 that nets a result of pushing MK's match-ups to a certain point.


1 and 2 will be near impossible to find and test without MK being consistently played. 3 is more likely to be recognized, but still with MK banished from the competative scene, only a few die-hard players will be testing MK's viability with said AT in play, thus only slightly less unlikely to show that he is no longer a bannable character.

4 is the most important. If MK is in reality balanced, then new techniques of all 3 categories will gradually chip away at his dominance. Without MK within the metagame, discovering that a variety of techniques coming together has broken MK's dominance is going to be completely impossible.

"If MK is in reality balanced" -- There is no proof whatsoever of even hoping for this.

1. Will be found whether MK is in the scene or not. In fact, him being so dominant *reduces* the chances of this being located because less people are using the other characters.

2. Extremely unlikely. The chances of an AT only impacting a character's matchup with MK and not helping them against anyone else is a very slim possibility to base a hope on.

3. Will be found whether MK is in the scene or not.

4. Is just saying "If 1-3 happen enough MK will be balanced" and doesn't need explaining.

So what you have here are 2 things that will occur whether MK is in play or not, and only one (The rarest possibility) that is much less likely occur if he's not present. I would like you to explain why those top-end people who are skilled with MK and enjoy playing as him (Say, Dojo) won't ensure that if a new AT shows up that they believe could beat MK it'll get tested against him. If they find one effective enough, he'll get unbanned -- and that right there I believe is why he'll still have any new discoveries tried out against him.

What do you base the idea that only a few people testing an AT against him won't be enough to bring others in, if it's shown to effectively stop an approach or limit some other option MK has? Very few people actually want him banned, but the majority in favor of it just don't see anything left to do at this point besides watch the tournament scene slowly die. This means that if he does get banned though, people (Even some of those suggesting he be banned) are likely to test true possibilities out against him to see if they change things enough.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Yeah, we either ban MK or we leave him alone.

The former will not sit well with Meta Knight mainers who generally don't think a/o care he's broken.

I vote for B-ban at least.

It sounds like you want a stamina system, similar to what they gave PT in Brawl. Which sucks (It's not like he'd be doing so great without it.) And if you take such an idea to extremes, that after using a move you get tired... well you'll end up with something a lot more turn-based than the fluidity of a fighter, ie. we borrow Pokémon-type dynamics but that's kinda silly thinking, not what I'd originally meant.

The idea won't be basically turned based if executed properly. Missed what I said earlier?

Most importantly, it would be set up so that only certain characters, spam-happy players, move abusers, or simply dragged-out fight participants would notice the mere existence of priority decay.

In other words, pretty much extreme scenarios that can damage the influence of real skill. The certain characters would have to be a bit wiser about their attacks, but it's not like they should be relying on priority to fight their opposition.

I don't know what references you're making, but LOL about Pit's arrows. They're good, not broken. If they were broken, Pit would be higher on the tier list, and maybe doing well in tournaments? But he's not, particularly. Broken means too good. Arrows are avoidable, and as Sonic you won't fire many before I can run up and kick you in the groin. Just sayin'.

Sonic is very fast though. He's not a good example. And Pit's arrows are annoying either way. Then again, camping in general is, but Pit's is easily a bad case because he can direct his arrows however he wants and they cause flinching so you can't even jump to avoid them. Even if you can dodge the arrows, he'll be set up in a manner that punishes anything resembling an approach, it just wastes time and delays the inevitable, he's gonna shoot you repeatedly like I said.

I'll grant you that priority is a mess, but it's not our job to fix it.... that's way way beyond our ability or responsibility. The answer to your question about Falcon Kick makes perfect sense when you understand how Brawl's priority system works, which I guess you don't.

If you can't fix priority, that's fine. But Falcon Kick should be breaking through Razor Leaf and gutting Ivysaur who fired the attack from the ground, not being stopped the exact same way that Raptor Boost was.

And we're to take your word on how to avoid a tornado? You think Pit's arrows aren't avoidable. This thread has had some of Brawl's worldwide best players post about the game; and yet there's a reason the top MKs don't just spam tornado all day. Are you so sure you're playing at the highest known level of play?

They don't spam tornado because it has less priority during the later phases of its duration. They'll make sure they don't use tornado without making sure you can't dodge.

I am definitely not a fan of multiquote walls when addressing one post.

I'm not a fan of making responses within the quote boxes.

{a} Grounded moves' priority: If they're within 10 damage of each other, they will clang and both get cancelled. If one move does over 10 damage more, it will outprioritize the second move. Of course, if one move's attackbox hits the opponent's hitbox first, then that move will "win", regardless of damage. Aerial priority - well, aside from destructible projectiles, which work similarly (like Din's Fire) - the move that makes contact with a hitbox first will win. In this case, Metaknight's range and speed make this alot easier for him to win aerially.

Really, would PD be implausible to use as part of a multiplier? If it works as a percentage, it can work as a multiplier to make the attack act as if it does less damage. And PD could work to force multiple hurtboxes to be hit with an aerial as well.

{b} Hm. I apologize, it was a subtle attack on you. But doing a self-imposed B-ban when it's perfectly fine within the rules to use B-moves is just not playing to win. I'd take it as sandbagging if I were your opponent, and playing to satisfy your own mental ruleset/"honor code" instead of playing with what is actually allowed is just not competitive.

How ironic that this topic is about a character known for having an honor code. Yeah, that's another thing: honor code does not have to be competitive. It's more a way to treat opponents with decency, and not bloody cheese them.

Of course, there are people who don't like the rulesets and would rather play with their own rules (final smash on, free for all, stamina mode, no B), however, their opinion tend to carry less weight in discussions like this.

Final Smashes are imbalanced. FFAs can turn into mob tactics on the toughest player, and stamina pretty much defeats the point of playing SSB in general. Also, B-ban is merely for specific characters who can be overboard with specials.

{c} Of course Metaknight's speed+priority poses a problem to many players. However, modding the game isn't an acceptable choice within the realm of this argument. It is not up to us to rebalance the characters. If you want to muse on about what could be nice improvements on characters, go to the SSB4 thread and have fun.

Been there, done that, they were too busy talking about stages.

Your understanding of priority seems to be lacking, and it makes it easier for people to try to discredit you based on this, as well as your... inability to fight tornado. {f}

1)I understand priority enough, and it does need to be toned down.

2)You're not doing a better job fighting the tornado, or else Meta Knight would be on the bad end of neverending projectiles.

{e} It's ALOT easier to gimp MK if you're not in the risk of being shuttle-looped and being reverse-launched to an early death, or shuttle-looped and stage spiked. His jumps are also very short, and, if it works like Pit, if you hit him out of glide, he won't be able to glide again.

Pit recovers fine. There's no reason for Meta Knight not to with two additional jumps.

{f} Tornado use from beneath? Oh good, I can hit it from the top, or bait it to rise and airdodge to go under it. Tornado used from in front of me? Good, I can hit him before it starts. It's very possible and has been done. Your experience might not necessarily reflect the best choices - for example, have you tried tilting your shield, then chasing after the Metaknight when he tries to retreat the tornado? A dumb MK tried to spam tornado against me and I got over 80% just hitting him in startup lag, jumping over him and hitting him from above, and grabbing him in ending lag. Was he a crappy player? Yes. Could have had better choices? Definitely. Just like GAW's B-air - you can shield the first one, or two, but you'll have to run away from it or beat it for a while until you get your shield back.

You're not going to hit a decent Meta Knight before you get hit by the tornado. And then what? Smash him? Yeah right, you're too busy recoiling from the continuous hits and being forced right into them to do anything.

{g} Shuttle loop is still spammable. And good, if it's manageable, then don't B-ban.

B-ban is for the tornado, not the Shuttle Loop. And let's not forget the drill attack while we're at it.

{h} Metaknight is far from a fastfaller.

AGAIN with the Smash Wiki disputing. Because it makes too much sense to update it if that's the case.

 

[ColinJF]

3/4s of the cast unviable because of this one character?

How about every time has to have it or an answer to it? (aka the pokemon criteria)

All up to debate, what is overcentralization?

Since when is three quarters of the cast inviable because of Meta Knight? That just isn't the case.

I'm not sure what "How about every time has to have it or an answer to it?" is supposed to mean, but it sounds really scrubby. The pokemon community is mostly scrubs now anyway.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I've written more than anybody else about the theoretical basis of overcentralisation as it applies to pokemon, as well as hammering out tons of details and ideas, and your statement is bizarre. Some of this **** is disturbingly analogous actually:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1334828#post1334828 (I like Brawl though)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1287457#post1287457
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37738&page=3
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1014335&postcount=4
etc. etc.

Anyway, "overcentralisation" isn't a term we need to use for a game with so few characters (relative to pokemon); it just introduces confusion and encourages the scrubby mindset of banning to improve diversity.


Everybody knows what the results of a mass poll on Meta Knight will be by the way, especially if there are no restrictions on who can vote.

 

[salaboB]

Anyway, "overcentralisation" isn't a term we need to use for a game with so few characters (relative to pokemon); it just introduces confusion and encourages the scrubby mindset of banning to improve diversity.

Even by Sirlin's definition, scrubby is when you show up at a place and try to enforce your own personal rules on people with no regard for what the actual rules say. There is nobody discussing this you can properly apply it to because the discussion is about making the actual rules, not showing up and trying to force the others competing against you to follow it when the TO has allowed it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

"If MK is in reality balanced" -- There is no proof whatsoever of even hoping for this.

1. Will be found whether MK is in the scene or not. In fact, him being so dominant *reduces* the chances of this being located because less people are using the other characters.

Are you daft? Nobody will notice it if he's not on the scene.

"Oh, I can grab release MK as ofen I want and then Spike him", you need MKs around to discover that because it's MK specific. No MKs mean no discovery.

And no, with MK being so omni-present in the metagame, people fight him more. Until he reaches the point where there are more MK mains then the sum of all other players in Brawl, it just means that people will fight MK more.

2. Extremely unlikely. The chances of an AT only impacting a character's matchup with MK and not helping them against anyone else is a very slim possibility to base a hope on.

Of course, but it IS a possibility, one which is no longer a possibility with MK gone.

3. Will be found whether MK is in the scene or not.

Will be found, but will not be assumed to negatively impact MK as compared to the rest of the cast. The volume of testing required to make that distinction, especially across multiple ATs that each only have a slight impact.

So what you have here are 2 things that will occur whether MK is in play or not, and only one (The rarest possibility) that is much less likely occur if he's not present. I would like you to explain why those top-end people who are skilled with MK and enjoy playing as him (Say, Dojo) won't ensure that if a new AT shows up that they believe could beat MK it'll get tested against him. If they find one effective enough, he'll get unbanned -- and that right there I believe is why he'll still have any new discoveries tried out against him.

1 will not occur, 3 will not be noticed. 2 is unlikely,, but certainly a possibility, especially when it's a MINOR change, that combined with other things, changes the game.

The point is, the volume of natural expiriments to REALIZE that overall these changes to the metagame result in MK not being so broken is simply not going to happen, barring a tiny tiny chance (a very generous one compared to an anti-MK only AT).

What do you base the idea that only a few people testing an AT against him won't be enough to bring others in, if it's shown to effectively stop an approach or limit some other option MK has? Very few people actually want him banned, but the majority in favor of it just don't see anything left to do at this point besides watch the tournament scene slowly die.

Because it's at top level play that this matters. These changes, in all likelyhood will equate to tiny tiny changes that together make MK workable. Nobody will notice it with MK gone from the scene, sure some newer players might think that because of raw volume, but those will be crying "wolf" all the time and be ignored.

A single technique that shakes up the entire metagame in a very obvious way (like wavedashing) has the best chance, but the going assumption will be that it impacts MK the same as the rest of the cast, and the volume of testing required to recognize that this is not the case is VERY unlikely, especially because it needs tourmnament results.

Since when is three quarters of the cast inviable because of Meta Knight? That just isn't the case.

I wasn't suggesting it was, merely an example.

I'm not sure what "How about every time has to have it or an answer to it?" is supposed to mean, but it sounds really scrubby. The pokemon community is mostly scrubs now anyway.

Basically you need one pokemon in your team or you need a member of your team specifically to answer that pokemon, otherwise your team will be entirely beaten. It doesn't work for us, at least not in 1V1 (perhaps teams, which we haven't really discussed), but it's a valid criteria. It was little more then an example however.



Reguardless, the overall point is, "metagame being composed of one character", is not the only definition of "overcentralization". This is probably the biggest issue that we have to deal with at this point.

Again, I reference to the example of Old Sagat, "on the edge of reasonableness", in Sirlin's words, not unreasonable.

Our Metagame is far too new for distinctions that fine, BUT eventually, we will be able to.

 

[adumbrodeus]

double post

 

[OmegaXF]

But we are all *****ing otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing this. But other than that yeah good point.

 

[Vyse]

Don't ban Metaknight.
Instead, consider unbanning certain stages.

Discuss.

 

[salaboB]

Are you daft? Nobody will notice it if he's not on the scene.

Nobody wants a character banned if it can be avoided.

If the game develops enough, people that are excellent with MK will start testing him again. If they find the sum total of new techniques means they no longer beat the people they used to, they'll bring it to the communities attention.

I mean honestly, people still test things against Ganondorf. Why would they not test things thoroughly against Meta Knight whether he's banned or not?

The argument that new ATs against him won't be found if he's not present has not been demonstrated beyond "Nobody will play him", and there is no evidence of that occurring since even the lowest tier characters still get things tested. Given a bit of time (Sure, it may be longer than if he wasn't banned) the new ATs will end up tested thoroughly even against a banned MK. Give me an example relevent to Smash if you want me to believe this community will just forget about him so thoroughly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

who's ready for a wall o' text? yay!!!!!

Banning to fix "overcentralisation" (i.e. having just one character viable) is different from banning to increase the number of viable characters. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. The number of viable characters could be increased in any game by banning the top tier, but that isn't something anybody sensible endorses.

As far as Brawl is concerned though the game isn't "overcentralised" unless Meta Knight isn't possible to beat with other characters, just being at a disadvantage against him isn't overcentralisation.

i was going to say the the two are one in the same but they are slightly different, however, keep in mind...
matchups dont factor as much into overCent. (im going to be abbreviating alot...)because no matter what, if one character is not disadvantaged, everyone will play him, so in that case everyone just being disadvantaged to him is enough because it will lead to people not playing any other character.
also you have to be more specific, when it comes to banning to increase the number of viable characters, if it will increase that number from 4-7 than i agree with you, but if it will increase that number from 1/2 to close to 10. than the ban is acceptable

What Hylian did is something that's been going on for a while. Sometimes top players keep secrets in their back pocket for defeating other characters and don't spread the word. Why? Because they'd rather no one find a way around it, or that they get to be the one who wins of course. It's smart to do so. I sat down just last night and showed someone why even though one of my characters goes even with their meta, that if they spam a few moves that makes them -look- like a noob, it's actually possible for this character to be -completely- incapable of attacking Metaknight at all. What was looking like a 60:40 matchup becomes instantly a 90:10. Hylian was just showing that sometimes what -looks- like an advantage or an even matchup can be turned on its heels once the meta player knows the secret to defeating that character.

thats why M2K doesnt lose, he learns the MK matchups and learns what broken BS he can do to counteract any character. i dont know about yall but i havent heard of M2K losing to any diddys lately, have you. eventually MKs will do this for every match and than, M2K wont be the only person dominating every tourney they go to with MK (even though now, he already isnt the only one doing it)

sadly, i'm beggining to think that with the influx of new players with brawl (not insulting you guys at all) we've become a lazy communtiy. For some reason we don't want to understand that we'll have to wait for the games maturity, and we don't know when that will be, we'll only know when we get there. But the attitude that i get from this thread that "we don't know if we'll find something so lets not even look, there's no point"

it kinda saddens me we've reduced ourselves to this, somethings you just have to tough out and have faith.

The bolded part is how far I got be4 I had to stop reading.
This arguement pisses me off to no end. Do you think that you are the only brighteyed, hopefull person out there? Did it ever occur to you that the people who switched, did so because they more work and research than you could possibly imagine, because they were absolutely sure that there was a way to beat Mk with whatever character. only to have their hopes and dreams crushed, and being slapped back down to earth by the realization that MK cant be beaten. now notice please that I said Mk cant be beaten, I did not say that the people that play MK cant be beaten. I have said before and will say again:
"lack of matchup knowledge counters everyone"
people dont realise that you have to do different things to beat different characters. if you dont know what to do against the character you will obviously lose theres specific strats for each matchup. example:
Sonic Mario and Luigi: F-air spam
Wolf Ness and Lucas: D-airs offstage
Fox/Falco: Down throws and followups and n-airs offstage
DK, D3 and Bowser: Tornado spam
GaW: Up-B counters and f-smash
half the other characters: Up-B to glide attack repeated looping.
you could do this for every character in the game because he beats every character in the game. Maybe the smart people have just done the reseach, realised what Mk can do to them that they cant do anything about, and figured out that the best option is to just play him themselves

The goal isn't to have the best chance at fighting Meta Knight. The point is to avoid a counter pick.

During the first round of the match, you think to yourself "Who do I play?"

The bottom line is that almost any character you pick as your choice, if it isn't Marth or Meta Knight, there will be that potential possibility that the character your opponent picked will have an advantage on you, especially if you don't call a double blind, or if they already know who you main.

" I could go with Snake... Although I don't know who he mains. If I wind up fighting a Pikachu, DK or Dedede, I'll have some issues... "

" Fox is an option. If they go with Ice Climbers or Pikachu, this will be a tough match up though. "

" Hm... This guy knows I main DK. I've seen his Dedede in friendlies too. If I go with DK, I'm likely not going to win... Who else can I choose? "

The train of thought continues. Eventually, it leads to the character with the safest, most balanced overall character choice. That is Meta Knight.

Now, assuming you lose, and have a chance to counter pick, there are a whole assortment of choices to use against their character choice (and yes, that includes if they're playing Meta Knight). This gives you the ability to choose basically whoever you want for your advantage or personal taste.

However, if you win, you are still forced with the same decision you started with, simply because Meta Knight is that safe of an option. Sure, you may be better off playing using say Dedede vs DK than Meta Knight. Definitely. But there is no way for you to know the other players choice, and choosing Dedede is a complete gamble. No one likes chances.



Basically, this all boils down to how reliable Meta Knight is as a character. He has disadvantages. He isn't the best choice every time. He won't always win. But in the end, he is the safest, most reliable, and (assuming your style of playing doesn't suit another character better) best option for selection on round one, and every other round you win. This is why he is played so much compared to the rest of the cast. Marth has the same thing going for him, except that Meta Knight is superior to him in almost every way possible, and has a much higher learning curve.

i have nothing at all to add to this...

I think MK is advancing the metagame of all the other characters. Regardless, MK is still hurting the competitive community.

Take this example.

Your school starts a chess team. Some people that join the club start off better than others. No-one is significantly better than anyone else though. (this will represent smash without MK) Your rival school's chess team has people at the same skill level of your team's members, BUT...they've got three master players that dominates everyone in the club. It is possible to beat them, but it's very hard, and you've got to get lucky somtimes. (this will represent smash with MK)

People at your school play each other every day, learning new things as they play. You guys hold school tourneys, and there are players that are better than others and tend to place better.

At the other school though, they all play the chessmasters and learn a lot about how to play chess. When they hold their school tourneys, the masters always win first, second, and third. And just to add on, most of the members complain about how good they are, and some quit the club because they win every tournament. blah blah blah.

In a year, which club do you think would have the better players?

This isn't a great analogy, but still...

Interesting thought. but consider this.
yes the school that plays against the masters will have the better team, but thats obvious because they have the masters on their team, and eventually everyone else will stop enjoying the game and realise that since they cant hope to beat the masters theres no reason to play, and quit the club. meanwhile the other school will have everyone stay in the club because everyone is enjoying the game, and even though skill gaps will occur, nobody will feel that they dont have a chance in hell, and everybody will play and get better, and since they are constantly getting better, there is a chance that together, they will collectively get good enough to beat the masters at the other school so in that case the school without the OP players will end up being the better players

I feel that Meta Knight could quite easily be on the verge of being banned but if we begin to ban characters it could qutie easily ruin the game of Smash.

From personal experience when entering competitions as a Snake mainer I find that Meta Knight is quite simply one of the most B-reliant characters meeting the standards of many low end Lucas and Falco players (spammers). The way they resort to insufficient repetetiveness of MT as soon as they are a stock down they begin to break matches with delays.

All I have left to say is that Meta Knight is as broken as they come apart from maybe Snakes U-Tilt.

LOL snakes up tilt is too good!!

seriously, though, what were they thinking, making a character whose EVERY SINGLE MOVE save throws can possibly kill you at 130

 

[complexity1234]

^^Hylian probably doesn't know that Sonic has only two moves that can break through tornado, both of which are hard to time and hard to space.

Puffball did well most likely because Hylian doesn't know the Sonic matchup that well. He was messing up his spacing al lot which is a clear indicator that he's just not used to Sonic's speed.

That doesn't mean that MK is suddenly not Sonic's worst matchup.

....just wants MK banned because his character Sonic is countered by him.

Look at Mario, DK, Luigi, bowser, and Samus. Those characters get INFINITY'D by Dedede and he isn't banned. Dedede can chaingrab more than half the cast and it NEVER runs out, completely overpowered, yet he isn't banned. Falco, lucario, pikachu's chaingrabs at least end eventually at fair percents.

Marth's chaingrab shuts down Lucas and Ness but he isn't banned.

Metaknight is a good counter for D3, take him out, then people are gonna flock to Dedede instead. Snake gets countered completely by Dedede, as well as other characters.

Snake can go toe to toe and in general has the advantage against MK.

Characters that can arguably go even with MK are Fox, G & W, diddy kong, PIT, Falco, Yoshi, Marth, Lucario, and Olimar. And thats with what we know of match ups so far. The game hasn't even progressed past a year yet.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I don't care if you can beat your buddy's MK with Captain Falcon.

I would wreck your MK with Captain Falcon.

 

[cman]

Characters that can arguably go even with MK are Fox, G & W, diddy kong, PIT, Falco, Yoshi, Marth, Lucario, and Olimar. And thats with what we know of match ups so far. The game hasn't even progressed past a year yet.

Where did you come up with that list? Marth has a 60:40 disadvantage vs MK, and GW was recently shown to have a decent disadvantage too. Diddy kong is EXTREMELY stage dependent. Yoshi should in theory, but in practice the results haven't been that great. I can't believe falco would either. I don't know about the others, but i'm disinclined to believe any of them either. Show some proof and/or reasoning for this assertion.

 

[da K.I.D.]

LOL!!!
Bowyer is too good!!

also at AdamBro...

i think its hilarious that you are contesting the ban on the basis that we will never find anything to combat him if we do.

If you really think that, why dont you just let him be banned, and personally resign yourself to testing every single new technique against metaknight

PROBLEM SOLVED!!

also @ Everybody
also dont look at peoples mains to try to discredit their opinions on this. that will not get anything accomplished. for the record, i am astounded, ASTOUNDED at the number of sonic players that dont support the ban

 

[Ussi]

Because the sonic players believe they can fight MK >_>

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nobody wants a character banned if it can be avoided.

But after he's banned, people will care... but not touch the character at all.

If the game develops enough, people that are excellent with MK will start testing him again. If they find the sum total of new techniques means they no longer beat the people they used to, they'll bring it to the communities attention.

No... they won't. Because they won't realize that things have changed the situation signifigantly until they've tested it.

Catch 22, they need to test to realize that things have changed, and in order to test they need to believe things have changed.

I mean honestly, people still test things against Ganondorf. Why would they not test things thoroughly against Meta Knight whether he's banned or not?

Ganondorf is still tournament legal and if it's your character playstyle, you can still get good results off him, it's just VERY difficult.

A banned character however, is a waste of time.

The argument that new ATs against him won't be found if he's not present has not been demonstrated beyond "Nobody will play him", and there is no evidence of that occurring since even the lowest tier characters still get things tested. Given a bit of time (Sure, it may be longer than if he wasn't banned) the new ATs will end up tested thoroughly even against a banned MK. Give me an example relevent to Smash if you want me to believe this community will just forget about him so thoroughly.

It's not "nobody", it's the required volumes.

Does Akuma have the required volumes of tournament and playing to learn games that would be required to ascertain if small incremental changes have made him balanced?

I think you're not understanding what I mean by "test", sure people can test direct effects, but for a character's status as banned or unbanned, natural tests are far more important.

What is a natural test? Friendlies and tournaments, the former MK will be seen in very rarely, the latter MK will never be seen in.

Metaknight is a good counter for D3, take him out, then people are gonna flock to Marth* instead.

*Fixed

MK surpresses DDD's counters, DDD would be far worse without MK.

Snake can go toe to toe and in general has the advantage against MK.

Lol, that was when MKs jumped in the ****. With good spacing Snake has a noticable disadvantage.

Characters that can arguably go even with MK are Fox, G & W, diddy kong, PIT, Falco, Yoshi, Marth, Lucario, and Olimar. And thats with what we know of match ups so far. The game hasn't even progressed past a year yet.

let me go through this...

Fox

Lolololol. There's not possible way.

G & W

No

diddy kong

a possibility but very doubleful

PIT

No, kthanxby

Falco

No

Yoshi

This is true

Marth

... no. We discussed this in depth already at the Marth boards.

Lucario

no

Olimar

Lol, the disagreement is whether he's soft or hard countered by MK. He can't go even.

 

[complexity1234]

Then you haven't fought good enough players with those characters. Saying no to falco just shows You make no sense. He has a free 0-50 % on every single MK life. Only 50 % left to go then he is in kill range.

And 55:45 is arguably even. There is STILL more tactics waiting to be discovered.

He is the Shiek of Brawl. Plays well against alot of characters, hardly any bad matchups, players wanted him banned, etc etc..... same old thing.

Was Shiek banned? exactly

 

[ROOOOY!]

Because the sonic players believe they can fight MK >_>

We can't, don't put words into our mouths >_>

All I've said regarding Sonic v MK is that it's not Sonic's worst match-up, which granted, it isn't through the opinion of most if not all Sonic mains. It's Wario. Wario can bite my ***.

As for actually banning MK...at the moment, I don't support it.
However, it's inevitable and WILL HAPPEN that MK will make several characters unplayable in the future and will probably dominate even more so, he'd warrant a ban then, but I still don't think he'd get one.

 

[salaboB]

But after he's banned, people will care... but not touch the character at all.

No... they won't. Because they won't realize that things have changed the situation signifigantly until they've tested it.

Catch 22, they need to test to realize that things have changed, and in order to test they need to believe things have changed.

Ganondorf is still tournament legal and if it's your character playstyle, you can still get good results off him, it's just VERY difficult.

A banned character however, is a waste of time.

Give me proof, something the community has done that demonstrates they'll just abandon a character because he's banned. I know this is difficult due to never having had one banned before, but I'd say the Item Standard Play thing is close -- even with the majority of tournaments having items banned, people took the time and effort to work through items and see what were fair. And the banned items can be re-evaluated as the situation changes. This shouldn't be happening if you're correct about banned aspects of the game never, ever being re-inspected. All you're doing without some evidence is stating your opinion that nobody will seriously play MK again if he's banned.

I have the following facts:
People don't want Meta Knight banned.
People want to be allowed to main Meta Knight in a tournament.
If Meta Knight is banned, people will want him unbanned.

Taken all together, these indicate to me that people will test against him still. Even if they won't do it for checking up on him, it's likely that some will because he's going to provide them a hard matchup and that can be good practice. And once a TO decides maybe people have learned enough, there will likely be random tournies that had him banned allowing him in again for a while until they can see if they're right or not. It's started going that way for banning, what evidence do you have beyond your opinion that it won't go the other way for unbanning as well?

 

[DanGR]

Interesting thought. but consider this.
yes the school that plays against the masters will have the better team, but thats obvious because they have the masters on their team, and eventually everyone else will stop enjoying the game and realise that since they cant hope to beat the masters theres no reason to play, and quit the club. meanwhile the other school will have everyone stay in the club because everyone is enjoying the game, and even though skill gaps will occur, nobody will feel that they dont have a chance in hell, and everybody will play and get better, and since they are constantly getting better, there is a chance that together, they will collectively get good enough to beat the masters at the other school so in that case the school without the OP players will end up being the better players

ah, I see your point. I guess it could go either way...

I've got nothing to add, really.

 

[XienZo]

I still propose we unban Shadow Moses Island



Ok, seriously though, about the "if we keep fighting MK, we'll find techniques to fight him", what if they ARE no more techniques? Many characters already have several general playstyles, and then they have one dedicated to MK.

Basically, we aren't exactly in the dark about fighting MK anymore. We know to shield or break the nado, don't do punishable stuff, and don't go off stage, and don't go from the air, so what else can we do from now? We already have a pretty basic view on how to fight MK. Yes, it will change over time, but I'm worried that it might not change enough to open up a weakness in MK.

 

[Nanaki]

Then you haven't fought good enough players with those characters. Saying no to falco just shows You make no sense. He has a free 0-50 % on every single MK life. Only 50 % left to go then he is in kill range.

And 55:45 is arguably even. There is STILL more tactics waiting to be discovered.

He is the Shiek of Brawl. Plays well against alot of characters, hardly any bad matchups, players wanted him banned, etc etc..... same old thing.

Was Shiek banned? exactly

When you can freely grab a halfway decent MK at 0% every stock, you let us know.

 

[TeeVee]

Then you haven't fought good enough players with those characters. Saying no to falco just shows You make no sense. He has a free 0-50 % on every single MK life. Only 50 % left to go then he is in kill range.

And 55:45 is arguably even. There is STILL more tactics waiting to be discovered.

He is the Shiek of Brawl. Plays well against alot of characters, hardly any bad matchups, players wanted him banned, etc etc..... same old thing.

Was Shiek banned? exactly

Is there wavedashing in Brawl? Exactly



I really, realllly hope your a troll.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Give me proof, something the community has done that demonstrates they'll just abandon a character because he's banned. I know this is difficult due to never having had one banned before, but I'd say the Item Standard Play thing is close -- even with the majority of tournaments having items banned, people took the time and effort to work through items and see what were fair. And the banned items can be re-evaluated as the situation changes. This shouldn't be happening if you're correct about banned aspects of the game never, ever being re-inspected. All you're doing without some evidence is stating your opinion that nobody will seriously play MK again if he's banned.

I have the following facts:
People don't want Meta Knight banned.
People want to be allowed to main Meta Knight in a tournament.
If Meta Knight is banned, people will want him unbanned.

Taken all together, these indicate to me that people will test against him still. Even if they won't do it for checking up on him, it's likely that some will because he's going to provide them a hard matchup and that can be good practice. And once a TO decides maybe people have learned enough, there will likely be random tournies that had him banned allowing him in again for a while until they can see if they're right or not. It's started going that way for banning, what evidence do you have beyond your opinion that it won't go the other way for unbanning as well?

I love smart people.

 

[complexity1234]

ah, I see your point. I guess it could go either way...

I've got nothing to add, really.

how about this.

m2k, pc chris, azen training together ( the 3 chess masters).

10 nubs training together at the other place with MK banned.

Who will win?

 

[salaboB]

how about this.

m2k, pc chris, azen training together ( the 3 chess masters).

10 nubs training together at the other place with MK banned.

Who will win?

Who will have the better tournaments?

Tell you what, I wouldn't be joining the one with m2k, pc chris, and azen at it -- all waiting to 3 stock me with their MKs.

 

[complexity1234]

Well i have more fun playing better players so I can eventually get better. To each their own.

 

[salaboB]

Well i have more fun playing better players so I can eventually get better. To each their own.

If all the better players use exactly the same style, why do you need 3 of them?

If you get annihilated without being able to tell what you're doing wrong because you lose that badly, what do you gain?

Training against them is different than playing in a tourney against them. In training you won't always be facing them out to mercilessly destroy you.

 

[brinboy789]

guys guys how about this. limit to an amount of tornados a match

i nvr use tornado anyway

 

[complexity1234]

Tornado is dependent on who the metaknight is facing. It ***** bowser, dedede, and DK because of their size.

Its pretty useless against small light characters who pop out of tornade like fox, olimar, another MK, etc. Those who know how can punish it easily. Its also rather useless against a snake who grenade counters well.

 

[Nanaki]

guys guys how about this. limit to an amount of tornados a match

i nvr use tornado anyway

I believe you've said "I nvr use tornado anyway" about 10 times in this thread alone. We get it. We appreciate it. Thank you.

The whorenado is not the only problem here, not by a long shot.

 

[Lucario Boricua]

Has anybody thought about what would happen if tournament organizers banned Meta Knight without announcing it offline? Remember, not all people that play in Super Smash Bros. BRAWL torunaments have internet acces, and that many of the people who do have it don't bother to check the forums related to the videogame. So, if Meta Knight gets banned, it should be announced by sereval forms of media (e.g. videogame magazines, for instance), with a couple of months before the ban.

Personally and objectively, I agree with banning Meta Knight. Maybe in Puerto Rico the ban will be applied earlier than in other places, since there aren't many smashers at my country. That means the "MK virus" can spread much faster on a smaller community, in which players get to know and react to each other much sooner.

 

[brinboy789]

I believe you've said "I nvr use tornado anyway" about 10 times in this thread alone. We get it. We appreciate it. Thank you.

The whorenado is not the only problem here, not by a long shot.

well someone DID make a thread on each and every attack and how well and easily they go through tornado so i would think that people don like it that much.

just saying. besides, ive said them like 50 pages apart.

 

[salaboB]

well someone DID make a thread on each and every attack and how well and easily they go through tornado so i would think that people don like it that much.

just saying. besides, ive said them like 50 pages apart.

That thread was because it's not immediately obvious which moves do work on it, and because at low-middle ends of play it can really mess people up.

MK would still be a major problem without it existing at all, though.

 

[Daimonster]

Has anybody thought about what would happen if tournament organizers banned Meta Knight without announcing it offline? .

People in America live without computers? Most tournaments get spread around by using the internet as a medium for advertising. I don't believe banning metaknight on a grand scale will leave some players "in the dark" about the topic.

I think my brain just exploded.

 

[Nanaki]

well someone DID make a thread on each and every attack and how well and easily they go through tornado so i would think that people don like it that much.

just saying. besides, ive said them like 50 pages apart.

Not personally knocking you or anything, just saying that the Nado is only a small part of the problem. I don't need to re-list all of MK's strengths again (that's been done to death in the past 200+ pages), but a ban/limit on the Nado would not only be controversial in and of itself, but wouldn't solve the overall issue.

Again, not a bad thought, and you're free to express your opinion the same as anyone else, I simply disagree with your particular solution.