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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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infomon

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Yes, then the game dies. It dies because people were bored of Brawl before it had a chance; too bored to develop the other characters to the point that they're competitive. We're assuming in your situation that MK isn't too good, so people would find ways to counter him with other characters if they tried. So it's the community's own choice that the game degenerate to dittos.

But I don't think that's what's happening with MK, to be honest. Just that we don't have enough proof yet.
 

Zelc

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Ok, here's a question. Let's say that Meta isn't really too good, but that people ARE really just flocking to him because they're sheep. Meta keeps flooding the playing field, and his inherent good-ness allows him to sweep like he has been doing, just at much greater numbers. Eventually, the playing field is reduced to almost nothing but Meta, but not because he's too good; just because people are dumb.

What then? Go ahead and allow the metagame to crumble due to overcentralization? Let the game turn into Meta dittos because everyone is playing him? As of now, the only thing that can stop this is finding a chink in Meta's armor, so to speak, but there is no reason to expect that to happen as of now.
If Metaknight has a bad matchup, then you can exploit the sheep by playing his bad matchup and thus having a better chance of winning than playing Metaknight. Eventually, enough people will figure this out and Metaknight will no longer dominate. However, if Metaknight has no 50:50 or worse matchups, then playing Metaknight is the only best choice in an all-MK metagame.
 

salaboB

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Humm, I thought a 60:40 matchup was supposed to mean that the 40 wins on average 40% of the time, at the highest level of play. Am I wrong? 40% is still enough to keep the 60 on their toes, and keep tournament results varied.
That is what it's supposed to mean.

But for the top players, it certainly hasn't shown up that way at tournies for the matches that are supposed to be 60:40.
 

AlexX

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Garchomp was recently banned from the OU Metagame in Pokemon, because he OVERCENTRALIZED it and he had NO COUNTERS. Its just better for the metagame. I see no difference with MK in brawl. There was no risk in using him and had no downfall.
Why do people keep comparing MK to Garchomp? Garchomp's existance made numerous pokemon unviable (ones which could actually be named, too... such as Magnezone, Lucario, and even stallers like Celebi experienced problems from it). Its 4x weakness to ice didn't work to balance it either, as it could still take ice hits just fine. Garchomp was legitimately overpowered as much as many of the legendaries.

MK doesn't many anyone unviable that wasn't already and still has to deal with being incredibly light (I highly doubt even the best MKs can face good players and never lose a single stock). Even if MK does prove to be banworthy, it will not be on the level that Garchomp was.
 

Overswarm

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That is what it's supposed to mean.

But for the top players, it certainly hasn't shown up that way at tournies for the matches that are supposed to be 60:40.
However thought 60:40 meant one player wins 60% of the time and the other 40% is not thinking clearly.

It just means that in any given match, the advantage would lean in the direction of the higher the number. The lower your number, the more "skill" you have to have to overcome your opponent who has a natural advantage.

Example:

You have a stick with thorns on it. I have a katana.

90:10, my favor.

Are you going to win 10% of the time? No. It just shows how little of a chance you have.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Do you mean a "should MK be banned" poll? Why would you want n00bs voting on something like that!?? The people who think MK is broken because of his "unstoppable tornado", as opposed to the more legitimate reasons? Also, the poll is from a biased audience... the opinions of the people who come to this thread does not necessarily represent the opinion of ppl on smashboards, let alone smashers....
I just wanna see numbers. I never stated that this would be an official decision on whether MK should be banned. I just don't wanna scroll through thousands of post and count myself when everyone could just throw their votes in with a poll. I don't care who votes (n00b, pro, etc.). You don't need to lecture me on proper statistical sampling.
 

infomon

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However, if Metaknight has no 50:50 or worse matchups, then playing Metaknight is the only best choice in an all-MK metagame.
Well, not quite. Suppose you're Azen, and you have a wicked Lucario, and say Lucario is 55:45 in MK's favour. It's not necessarily wrong for Azen to challenge M2K's MK with Lucario -- it's saying "my character's at a slight disadvantage, but I'm better with him than MK, and I think you're not quite as good against Lucario's as you are in MK dittos. So Lucario's my best chance against you."

You see, slight matchup differences aren't the only thing that matter in practice. Perhaps not for a long time will they be the dominant factor, anyway. Realistic factors matter, like situational out-smarting, and certain people being able to play some characters better than others even if they trained lots. Which is why if MK was 55:45 against the whole rest of the cast, he's still not necessarily dominant in tournaments, to the point that it's ban-worthy. IMO.
 

Jack Kieser

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Again, highest level of play. If we're at the highest level of play, this would NEVER happen, because the Meta would know exactly what strategy to use to shut down any Lucario. They'd both have done all of their homework, and would know the Meta/Lucario matchup like they know their name. And if they are both playing at their highest level, Meta will win. It won't be a shutout, and Lucario will have put up a valiant effort right to the bitter end... but Meta will have won.
 

infomon

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I just wanna see numbers. I never stated that this would be an official decision on whether MK should be banned. I just don't wanna scroll through thousands of post and count myself when everyone could just throw their votes in with a poll. I don't care who votes (n00b, pro, etc.). You don't need to lecture me on proper statistical sampling.
Are you sure? What about the statistical mantra "no data is better than inaccurate data"?

Such a poll can't provide meaningful information, just misleading information. Unless your curiosity is about the make-up of this thread, for whatever reason, and not about MK. Which maybe it is... whatever *shrug*
 

Zankoku

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Again, highest level of play. If we're at the highest level of play, this would NEVER happen, because the Meta would know exactly what strategy to use to shut down any Lucario. They'd both have done all of their homework, and would know the Meta/Lucario matchup like they know their name. And if they are both playing at their highest level, Meta will win. It won't be a shutout, and Lucario will have put up a valiant effort right to the bitter end... but Meta will have won.
How many players exist on the highest level of play? It would be more realistic to pay attention to the high levels of play in each region, instead.
 

salaboB

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How many players exist on the highest level of play? It would be more realistic to pay attention to the high levels of play in each region, instead.
That tends to be Meta Knight as well, because until you get to the highest level of play many of the matchups (Like Yoshi's is going to be like this) are more in favor of MK than they are if the opponent has mastered their character.

That's his "very easy to use" showing up.
 

Jack Kieser

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Isn't that what the matchup tables are based on? Unless I'm mistaken, matchups are debated at the highest level of play. It's not 'Meta is 60:40 to whoever at nominal levels of play.' Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
 

Zankoku

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Matchups are debated at the highest levels of human play. While some theory is involved, "possibility" is restricted to what is limited by human response, reflexes, and (occasionally) mindset.
 

Fletch

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I just wanna see numbers. I never stated that this would be an official decision on whether MK should be banned. I just don't wanna scroll through thousands of post and count myself when everyone could just throw their votes in with a poll. I don't care who votes (n00b, pro, etc.). You don't need to lecture me on proper statistical sampling.
I don't think they would put a poll up in general discussion, because if the SBR decides not to ban and the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of a ban here, all hell will break loose.
 

adumbrodeus

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But people aren't likely to find those new discoveries if the metagame is being crippled by so many of the better players picking up MK.

And honestly, there's very few things that could really bring balance against MK enough to get those players back.
Actually having MK so omni-present in the metagame is the perfect opportunity to find counters for him, because even in friendlies, people generally stick with characters they use and secondaries, but they're open to trying new techniques.

Besides, you're being unrealistic if you think that if he's banned nobody will play him. Everyone who likes him so much will take any new ATs found for anyone else and test them against MK so they can have him unbanned, if they work out. That alone should bring him back if he's ever allowed to be. But there's really no evidence or strong reason to expect this, given the trends and amount of time that's already been put into finding ways to fight MK.
I said nobody will play to learn with him. There's a difference between general play and playing to learn.

Sure a tiny fraction of the friendlies matches will include metaknight, but what are the odds of actually discovering a specific counter to MK?

With new ATs you face very long odds that it will click that they would counter MK, and people quite simply won't bother specifically testing it. Then it qualifies under the first category.

People don't play to learn with banned characters because you learn NOTHING, and that is what the vast majority of competitive players' non-tournament matches are. The vast majority of the remaining amount is purely BS matches which illustrate nothing.

Keep in mind that this only means anything at the top levels of play, and you'll find that only a very slim minority of matches have the possibility of revealing anything to unban a character. No, if banned MK will stay banned.


Only scrubs whine about diversity.
Overcentralization has long been a ban criteria.

Read Sirlin please (aka, the guy who defined "scrub" for fighting games).

if he played melee or 64 he wouldnt be a major part of this heated discussion...how about this
Wrong...

Some players hang around, especially in this particular discussion, in spite of the fact that they've quit Brawl, because this discussion DOES matter to them. Why? They'll return if MK is banned, simple no? They're trying to positively influence the game they wanna return to.

Furthermore, what is wrong with people participating in discussions that don't help them? Or doing things that don't help them in general? Even if they person is unaffected personally by this, they still have a say.


everything in this post proves why MK shouldn't be banned. if playing a character perfectly makes it ban worthy than every character is ban worthy.

no one should ever be arguing that we should make it easier to ban characters, banning anything is a big issue and shouldn't be taken lightly
... no

We're assuming all characters are played at the top levels of play, not just MK.

At the top levels of play, MK is Sonic's worst match-up.
 

Koga

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... no

We're assuming all characters are played at the top levels of play, not just MK.

At the top levels of play, MK is Sonic's worst match-up.
problem with this is that you are assuming we're at the top level of play RIGHT NOW.

Overcentralization is only a ban condition when a game has reached maturity, we are far from that a 7ish months from a games release. We acctually kind of need this MK dominance to get to a higher level of play, we need his dominance to push us to a higher level, banning him at this point is a move of laziness, and setting a time table just turns into everyone holding on to their lazyness untill that point.
 

Justblaze647

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We acctually kind of need this MK dominance to get to a higher level of play, we need his dominance to push us to a higher level, banning him at this point is a move of laziness, and setting a time table just turns into everyone holding on to their lazyness untill that point.
... I almost agree with this...

But what happens in a year or two when MK is still dominating with no end in sight? Are we still just being lazy then?
 

salaboB

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I said nobody will play to learn with him. There's a difference between general play and playing to learn.

Sure a tiny fraction of the friendlies matches will include metaknight, but what are the odds of actually discovering a specific counter to MK?
Even worse than the odds of finding a specific counter that only works against MK.

I can't think of a single AT concept that will only work against MK and not provide an advantage against anyone else. So that means that you should be able to locate all but the most bizarre ATs by playing against other people, and it's really not that hard to think about an AT and recognize if it has any possible advantage against another character -- and if it does, try it out in play. People won't just forget MK if he ends up banned, he'll get any ATs that are announced to the general population tested against him in hopes of finding something worth unbanning him for.

Theorycraft time! Make up an AT that would help anyone (Not a general AT, I mean you can pick whoever you want to have this advantage, based on their movesets/whatever) against MK but be useless against everyone else they'd ever play. MK hasn't shown any signs of having unusual animation immunities (Like Dedede and Snake have shorter than normal Ground Footstooled animations, MK has already been found to have the normal length) so whatever you come up with can't realistically say "And MK turns out to have this weird response that nobody else does." (Unless you come up with some justification for why we haven't tried that animation-response out on him and discovered it yet)
 

BentoBox

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Isn't that what the matchup tables are based on? Unless I'm mistaken, matchups are debated at the highest level of play. It's not 'Meta is 60:40 to whoever at nominal levels of play.' Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
Yoshi is said to have a neutral matchup against dear MK, but I do not know of an outstanding Yoshi player that could unleash the character's potential to that point. Matchup tables are based off on a lot of theorycrafting too. Which adds up to my previous post~

As long as fighting MK remains an uphill battle for some characters, while not un-win-able, there will never be a reason not to exclusively play metaknight, simply because people are stubborn like that. Hylian just made a thread on the MK forums detailing how exactly MK shuts down everything G&W has, approach wise, and why a good MK shouldn't have much difficulties fighting one... A matchup that is believed to be 50-50 for some. M2K saw that as an attempt to ban MK... Because as long as such information is kept away from people (or at least not known by all), MK will never be conceived as impossible to beat.
Since so many people disagree with the statement that MK remains the only viable option, we can only hope that time will prove them wrong. Maybe it won't, who knows.
 

Zylar

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There is NO WAY I'm gonna read all that postage, so I don't know if this idea has been even suggested. So sry if it has. I did read the first ten pages though.

So what about an "uber soft ban" if you please, called hanicaps. Since handicaps in brawl work with percentages, it's debatable as to what percentage is a reasonable handicap.

But just to let it out there, is this even a good idea? Are there problems with this concept?

As I don't support a Meta-ban yet hate metaknight (The character, NOT the player) I hope that this could be a suitable solution. However that has yet to be seen.

So once again, how about handicaps???
 

OmegaXF

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So after all the years Brawl was in development. Sakuai decided to add a character that had very few bad matchups and a character who could completly destroy a large number of the Smash Bros Cast? I doubt it. Maybe we aren't seeing something and thats why we say MK is broken. He is not the Broken Akuma of Smash Bros. He isn't godly. He has Godly moves yes, but he is not godly. At the highest level of play you should already know that their are no easy matchups, that winning is not guarented. You must face the fact that BS will happen. That your opponent could be playing an OP Character. The fact is that most PLAYERS can not handle MK moveset while in the control of a high level player. There is a counter to MK broken moves, but it's the way MK is being played that make him broken. Thats when you hear someone complain about MK has a (Insert broken move here) (insert what broken moves does here)
Then to hear people complain about their charcter has a tough time with MK. Captain Falcon will automatically have a tough time against MK. He has no good approach on him. He has piss poor prority. CF has nothing good against MK your bound to have 1 hell of a time against him. But thats off subject. Just an Example.
I say no, MK should not be banned. Deleting a part of Brawl just dosen't feel right.
 

PK-ow!

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Ok, here's a question. Let's say that Meta isn't really too good, but that people ARE really just flocking to him because they're sheep. Meta keeps flooding the playing field, and his inherent good-ness allows him to sweep like he has been doing, just at much greater numbers. Eventually, the playing field is reduced to almost nothing but Meta, but not because he's too good; just because people are dumb.

What then? Go ahead and allow the metagame to crumble due to overcentralization? Let the game turn into Meta dittos because everyone is playing him? As of now, the only thing that can stop this is finding a chink in Meta's armor, so to speak, but there is no reason to expect that to happen as of now.
Allow me to take this idea and put it this way:

Suppose MK is not "broken," but he is still such a good choice, with such good returns for your effort, and such good matchups against all characters, that indeed, people who simply see no point in looking elsewhere all flock to him. They are still motivated by MK's goodness, so it is not a popularity factor. It's not loyalty. It's truly a decision motivated by attention to the character's goodness. What I am stipulating is just that, even though other options are possible, viable, in this universe people are deciding they just don't want to bother with other characters, since MK is just the best choice (by Game Theory).
Diversity could be there, but people just don't feel an impetus for it. Looking for counters to MK, people just don't want to do it. Let's break this hypothetical into two. (1) People don't look to counters because they just don't believe they will exist, so go with the known MK; or (2) Time has passed and the consensus of the elite is that the game is nearing maximization, and the matchups being just the same (but still "reasonably winnable" for enough cases, by asumption!) mean there is reason to believe no other character will ever have a better matchup against MK.

Now, what has been said about banworthiness ignoring a character's mere popularity, and looking to actual goodness in theory fighter, would conclude that this situation (1 or 2), no matter how overwhelming the uniformity of the field, so long as the assumption of "reasonably beatable" is in play, Meta Knight will never merit a ban.

The meta will just shift, by player choice, to Meta Knight. He'd be beatable, but no one will ever try to do it. In the second case, they've surely got good reasons. But even in the first, though it's not backed up by proof, you can have good reasons to suspect! You can make a good guess, that the world will remain in favour of MKs, but moreover, you can have a good reason to believe, that even if it's possible that another character could become even slightly advantaged to MK, your course of action is still expected to be profitable for you (for the mathematical definition of expectation). You think "I think I am best served, thinking about this by weighting each possibility by its probability, by sticking to making my MK better and practicing my MK ditto. Let others worry about other characters and lose those tourney pots in the meantime."

So the world will be, in either case, one where people are using Meta Knight, and there's no way they're all being scrubs, because they have a competitively-minded reason for using MK, all of them. So you have the uniformity, but not the brokenness, and not just because of scrubbiness or sheepmindedness.

Something seems wrong with that. I don't know what.


It seems that the only force against this happening, is a drive among players to break up uniformity, to "get tired of" MK and want to look for other things, motivated with complete indifference to tiers, motivated by diversity for its own sake.

But what if, as I stipulate, that doesn't happen? Can you establish that this drive will always exist?

*~*~*~

Oh God, please no one make a poll. Don't let even the whim seize you. You with the power to do it, you know fletch71011 is right.

@Zylar: I don't think a percent handicap would even work against MK, let alone the problems of justifying it. Think about this; unless you set the number so he's imminent to be K.O.'d, MKs advantages are in his absolute superiority in attacks. He can keep himself from being hit, barraging the opponent, maintaining flawless spacing and giving very little lag. If he starts eating you, it doesn't matter what his damage level is - you still have every difficulty in landing a hit (a fortiori, landing a K.O. hit).
 

ColinJF

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adumbrodeus said:
Overcentralization has long been a ban criteria.

Read Sirlin please (aka, the guy who defined "scrub" for fighting games).
Banning to fix "overcentralisation" (i.e. having just one character viable) is different from banning to increase the number of viable characters. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. The number of viable characters could be increased in any game by banning the top tier, but that isn't something anybody sensible endorses.

As far as Brawl is concerned though the game isn't "overcentralised" unless Meta Knight isn't possible to beat with other characters, just being at a disadvantage against him isn't overcentralisation.
 

salaboB

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So after all the years Brawl was in development. Sakuai decided to add a character that had very few bad matchups and a character who could completly destroy a large number of the Smash Bros Cast? I doubt it.
Sakurai wasn't trying to make a balanced game.
 

The Real Inferno

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What Hylian did is something that's been going on for a while. Sometimes top players keep secrets in their back pocket for defeating other characters and don't spread the word. Why? Because they'd rather no one find a way around it, or that they get to be the one who wins of course. It's smart to do so. I sat down just last night and showed someone why even though one of my characters goes even with their meta, that if they spam a few moves that makes them -look- like a noob, it's actually possible for this character to be -completely- incapable of attacking Metaknight at all. What was looking like a 60:40 matchup becomes instantly a 90:10. Hylian was just showing that sometimes what -looks- like an advantage or an even matchup can be turned on its heels once the meta player knows the secret to defeating that character.
 

Koga

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... I almost agree with this...

But what happens in a year or two when MK is still dominating with no end in sight? Are we still just being lazy then?

sadly, i'm beggining to think that with the influx of new players with brawl (not insulting you guys at all) we've become a lazy communtiy. For some reason we don't want to understand that we'll have to wait for the games maturity, and we don't know when that will be, we'll only know when we get there. But the attitude that i get from this thread that "we don't know if we'll find something so lets not even look, there's no point"

it kinda saddens me we've reduced ourselves to this, somethings you just have to tough out and have faith.
 

Justblaze647

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As far as Brawl is concerned though the game isn't "overcentralised" unless Meta Knight isn't possible to beat with other characters, just being at a disadvantage against him isn't overcentralisation.
It's not the fact that he's impossible to beat (per say), it's just that everyone is adopting the "the best chance I have against MK, is with MK" mentality (and rightfully so). So now all it takes is for one person in a area to utilize MK to all but force everyone around him to switch
 

The Real Inferno

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Oh, it's worth mentioning that as far as I have ever seen no fighting game has ever had to wait over six months to decide whether or not a character was banworthy.

It's also worth noting that Brawl's competitive metagame has developed YEARS faster than Melee's did, due to having an established competitive community from the start unlike Melee, which didn't have one for quite a while.
 

infomon

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So after all the years Brawl was in development. Sakuai decided to add a character that had very few bad matchups and a character who could completly destroy a large number of the Smash Bros Cast? I doubt it.
MK was the first new character announced for Brawl, and probably one of the first they started working on, along with Snake. MK has a weakness to projectiles, which are usually prevalent in the form of items. Sakurai has no interest in the competitive community around Smash Bros., and the game can seem quite balanced at low to mid levels of play.

Oh, it's worth mentioning that as far as I have ever seen no fighting game has ever had to wait over six months to decide whether or not a character was banworthy.
The Smash series has always been quite unique, insofar as fighting games are concerned. The large, varied stages, and unique KO dynamic, present a lot of options to all characters such that the metagame requires a good deal of time to evolve to the point where a nonobvious too good mechanic may present itself.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Are you sure? What about the statistical mantra "no data is better than inaccurate data"?

Such a poll can't provide meaningful information, just misleading information. Unless your curiosity is about the make-up of this thread, for whatever reason, and not about MK. Which maybe it is... whatever *shrug*
Then we should axe this whole thread. Unqualified smashers are offering feedback on a subject they do not understand. Heaven forbid someone on the Internet be wrong. I just want to see where the online community stands. If anything, what if the community turned out to be overwhelmingly against banning MK? I just wanna see. There would be no harm in seeing.
I don't think they would put a poll up in general discussion, because if the SBR decides not to ban and the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of a ban here, all hell will break loose.
It already has. This poll can't make anything worse. ;)
 

Ulevo

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It's not the fact that he's impossible to beat (per say), it's just that everyone is adopting the "the best chance I have against MK, is with MK" mentality (and rightfully so). So now all it takes is for one person in a area to utilize MK to all but force everyone around him to switch
The goal isn't to have the best chance at fighting Meta Knight. The point is to avoid a counter pick.

During the first round of the match, you think to yourself "Who do I play?"

The bottom line is that almost any character you pick as your choice, if it isn't Marth or Meta Knight, there will be that potential possibility that the character your opponent picked will have an advantage on you, especially if you don't call a double blind, or if they already know who you main.

" I could go with Snake... Although I don't know who he mains. If I wind up fighting a Pikachu, DK or Dedede, I'll have some issues... "

" Fox is an option. If they go with Ice Climbers or Pikachu, this will be a tough match up though. "

" Hm... This guy knows I main DK. I've seen his Dedede in friendlies too. If I go with DK, I'm likely not going to win... Who else can I choose? "

The train of thought continues. Eventually, it leads to the character with the safest, most balanced overall character choice. That is Meta Knight.

Now, assuming you lose, and have a chance to counter pick, there are a whole assortment of choices to use against their character choice (and yes, that includes if they're playing Meta Knight). This gives you the ability to choose basically whoever you want for your advantage or personal taste.

However, if you win, you are still forced with the same decision you started with, simply because Meta Knight is that safe of an option. Sure, you may be better off playing using say Dedede vs DK than Meta Knight. Definitely. But there is no way for you to know the other players choice, and choosing Dedede is a complete gamble. No one likes chances.



Basically, this all boils down to how reliable Meta Knight is as a character. He has disadvantages. He isn't the best choice every time. He won't always win. But in the end, he is the safest, most reliable, and (assuming your style of playing doesn't suit another character better) best option for selection on round one, and every other round you win. This is why he is played so much compared to the rest of the cast. Marth has the same thing going for him, except that Meta Knight is superior to him in almost every way possible, and has a much higher learning curve.
 

adumbrodeus

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Even worse than the odds of finding a specific counter that only works against MK.

I can't think of a single AT concept that will only work against MK and not provide an advantage against anyone else. So that means that you should be able to locate all but the most bizarre ATs by playing against other people, and it's really not that hard to think about an AT and recognize if it has any possible advantage against another character -- and if it does, try it out in play. People won't just forget MK if he ends up banned, he'll get any ATs that are announced to the general population tested against him in hopes of finding something worth unbanning him for.

Theorycraft time! Make up an AT that would help anyone (Not a general AT, I mean you can pick whoever you want to have this advantage, based on their movesets/whatever) against MK but be useless against everyone else they'd ever play. MK hasn't shown any signs of having unusual animation immunities (Like Dedede and Snake have shorter than normal Ground Footstooled animations, MK has already been found to have the normal length) so whatever you come up with can't realistically say "And MK turns out to have this weird response that nobody else does." (Unless you come up with some justification for why we haven't tried that animation-response out on him and discovered it yet)
I think you're misunderstanding me, so let me make this clear.

There are 4 main things that would change the situation with MK.

1. A number of character-specific advantages (either ATs or new appications of general principals). It would have to be found on a great number of characters and push his match-ups to a certain point, but it is doable. Note: These could either be available to single characters or a group of characters (ex. crawldashing).

2. A general AT that is useful ONLY against MK and pushes his match-ups to a certain point.

3. A general AT that is useful against everyone and has the side-effect of hurting MK's match-ups rather drastically.

4. Any combination of the above 3 that nets a result of pushing MK's match-ups to a certain point.


1 and 2 will be near impossible to find and test without MK being consistently played. 3 is more likely to be recognized, but still with MK banished from the competative scene, only a few die-hard players will be testing MK's viability with said AT in play, thus only slightly less unlikely to show that he is no longer a bannable character.

4 is the most important. If MK is in reality balanced, then new techniques of all 3 categories will gradually chip away at his dominance. Without MK within the metagame, discovering that a variety of techniques coming together has broken MK's dominance is going to be completely impossible.

No. That would be Wario. I can see where you're coming from though, he is most characters worst match ups.
Pardon-moi, it seems I am misinformed, last I heard, MK was the concensus, I guess that info is out of date.

Banning to fix "overcentralisation" (i.e. having just one character viable) is different from banning to increase the number of viable characters. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. The number of viable characters could be increased in any game by banning the top tier, but that isn't something anybody sensible endorses.

As far as Brawl is concerned though the game isn't "overcentralised" unless Meta Knight isn't possible to beat with other characters, just being at a disadvantage against him isn't overcentralisation.
Having one character viable is a form of over-centralization, you see overcentralization is not explicitly defined, everyone know that one character only is overcentralization, whereas anything beyond that is disagreed upon.

3/4s of the cast unviable because of this one character?

How about every time has to have it or an answer to it? (aka the pokemon criteria)

All up to debate, what is overcentralization?
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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I think MK is advancing the metagame of all the other characters. Regardless, MK is still hurting the competitive community.

Take this example.

Your school starts a chess team. Some people that join the club start off better than others. No-one is significantly better than anyone else though. (this will represent smash without MK) Your rival school's chess team has people at the same skill level of your team's members, BUT...they've got three master players that dominates everyone in the club. It is possible to beat them, but it's very hard, and you've got to get lucky somtimes. (this will represent smash with MK)

People at your school play each other every day, learning new things as they play. You guys hold school tourneys, and there are players that are better than others and tend to place better.

At the other school though, they all play the chessmasters and learn a lot about how to play chess. When they hold their school tourneys, the masters always win first, second, and third. And just to add on, most of the members complain about how good they are, and some quit the club because they win every tournament. blah blah blah.

In a year, which club do you think would have the better players?

This isn't a great analogy, but still...
 
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