The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

But if they're winning any tournies, it means (presumably) that they're able to defeat a bunch of MK's in each (given how popular he supposedly is). So I have trouble concluding that MK is really ruining the tournament scene to the point that's been suggested.

But tourneys are full of less skilled people. Are the MKs who take them out really better than them? Or even at equal skill? Are any of the ones they defeated even close in skill?

A lower ability MK losing to a higher ability anyone doesn't show much except that MK isn't Akuma. Which we knew already.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

To win any reasonably large or regional tournament, 2 things must happen.

1. You play metaknight.
2. You don't play metaknight, but no one who is actually good with metaknight comes to the tourney.

 

[brinboy789]

To win any reasonably large or regional tournament, 2 things must happen.

1. You play metaknight.
2. You don't play metaknight, but no one who is actually good with metaknight comes to the tourney.

i was at a local tourney the other day. there were 4 MK's out of around 50 people. all 3 except for me were crushed before the 3rd rounds. >.< so...it might just be that tourney, but yea.

 

[adumbrodeus]

However, we'll have an immediate growth in multiple other characters' metagames, and possibly people returning who quit because their main had no chance whatsoever against MK (Or just got bored always fighting MK).

The damage is counteracted a bit by benefits for banning, there is nothing really mitigating it for leaving him alone.

As far as playing vs. MK, people will remember him -- and any new strategies that pop up I'm quite certain will be tested against him. If one is ever found that destroys him, I bet he'd begin being unbanned soon after it was verified.

Given MK becoming balanced by new discoveries, those players with return anyway.

Once he's banned, he's gone, unless it's a temp ban (which won't bring the players back). This is because he'll be gone from friendlies and tournaments. Friendlies are playing to learn generally speaking, and playing as or against a banned character doesn't teach you anything, so the counter-MK metagame will stop.

No counter-Mk game means that MK will never be unbanned, barring extraordinary circumstances that something happens which illustrates their power against MK. Barring that minute chance, they will never be tested against MK in the top levels of play, which means, MK will never be unbanned and we'll never know the banning was unjustified.


Sure, there are effects from waiting a ban if it's justified, but removing a valid character has more severe long-term consequences.

Looks like its tilting in the favor of a ban. I'd just like to ask, Would it be so hard that, If a new AT was discovered a year after hes banned, to just say "Sorry" and unban him? Is that just too much to ask?

How would we know and discover an effective technique or set of techniques against MK?

Without his presence in the tournament environment, the counter-MK game will stagnate and we'll never find anything to justify unbanning him, barring an amazing chance circumstance.

WOAHHHHHHHHHHH, that is an entirely new arguement can you give specific examples, and if you can will it be more than the number of people that have already dropped brawl because of MKs inclusion? cause from what ive heard, Mk mains will jsut switch characters. M2K and dojo both said that. im just giving names because i asked the same of you

M2K will go where the money is, I would assume Dojo is the same.

It's more the potential big names that are still developing. You won't see this until the actual ban occurs, but it's the exact same effect as you are pointing out.

ok, im glad i figured out where you stand on his matches.
and yes, bad does need to be more objective, but i dont really know any stages that clearly disadvantage MK.

Yoshi's island (pipes).

if you noticed, my quote had the word"dominated" in it you cant dominate tourneys on any level if every one elses numbers are several times as high as ganon, so I will ask again.
Is there a way in this situation for you (you referenced yourself alone in that post put it doesnt have to be just you) to dominate wins, top 3s and top 8s on a local, regional, and national level

The phrasing deals with individual tournaments, not an aggregate of tournaments at that level (making it an aggregate would also work).

What if the same character is the top 3 slots in 400,000 tournaments?

Now how about we consider that this is out of 400,000,000,000,000 tournaments?

400,000 is a lot of tournaments to dominate, but reletive to the total number of tournaments it's very unimpressive.

That's the point, given the wording, you could cherry-pick those 400,000 to represent a portion of a case for a character's banning.

It has to be based on every tournament result at that level, not "a large number" or any similar wording.

the thing is is that that if its more than 2 characters that do that, than they are just top tier, (sorry for the incoming reference) in melee, 4-7 characters could do everything on the list, but nobody was banned because they were all near even at the top if you only have 2 characters that dominate than they both should be banned, if its 3, it makes for a paper, rock scissors game, in which i really dont know what to do, but if its 4 characters that do these things, than you cant ban all four, that just makes them top tier

The issue with that is, if you're dealing with a cast of say... 9999 possible characters, only 4 viable characters is a very insignificant portion of the metagame.

I'm pretty sure Akuma is hard-banned in Japan. O. Sagat is the only one that I'm sure is soft banned over there.

No, they didn't hard ban anyone.

While Snake countered MK, MK was certainly not ban-worthy. It meant there were at least two reasonably playable characters. OS wants MK banned, and you're saying OS' ban conditions are too weak?

Two reasonably playable character does NOT make a metagame...

If one of those characters is restricting the entire rest of the cast, then that character is ban-able.

Too weak and too strong on different criteria.

They aren't. As unfair and pants-on-head ******** as they are they actually aren't.

IC's infinites I can half accept because they require skill to perform.

There's nothing skillful about standing there, grabbing, mashing A, and then regrabbing like a faggot.

I wonder about this community sometimes. Why are we giving people free wins?

It's called playing to win, and having a bad match-up. I can play haphazardly with just about any character that hard counters another and still win. That's what being a hard counter is, an easy match.

 

[Overswarm]

The SBR changed their mind on pipes being good against MK.

We thought it was, then Vidjo was like "Oh hai guys, i can up+b to kill you at 50% and below vertically on either hill. Also, I can up+b off the stage on the left to kill you while still recovering, gimping you at any %."

So, yeah.

 

[Master Raven]

I've always felt DDD's infinites should be banned. They most surely would be if they worked on the whole cast, so I don't know why they're allowed since they only work on a select few characters.

 

[Jigglymaster]

MK's even more broken Online. He should at least be banned in online tournaments.

 

[brinboy789]

I've always felt DDD's infinites should be banned. They most surely would be if they worked on the whole cast, so I don't know why they're allowed since they only work on a select few characters.

DDD's chaingrab is a natural part of the game. but his infinites...im not sure about this one, because it IS an infinite, but its pretty hard to pull off. and what does this have to do with banning MK?

MK's even more broken Online. He should at least be banned in online tournaments.

for the record...MK SUX ONLINE. he cant link attacks together correctly with lag. sure, its not as bad as ness or lucas (PKthunderfailftw) but its still major nerf. unless theres no lag.

 

[Jigglymaster]

DDD's chaingrab is a natural part of the game. but his infinites...im not sure about this one, because it IS an infinite, but its pretty hard to pull off. and what does this have to do with banning MK?



for the record...MK SUX ONLINE. he cant link attacks together correctly with lag. sure, its not as bad as ness or lucas (PKthunderfailftw) but its still major nerf. unless theres no lag.

Have you ever heard of spamming the b up and the mach tornado online? Try spacing your attacks to out prioritze him online in the lag. GG

 

[salaboB]

Given MK becoming balanced by new discoveries, those players with return anyway.

But people aren't likely to find those new discoveries if the metagame is being crippled by so many of the better players picking up MK.

And honestly, there's very few things that could really bring balance against MK enough to get those players back.

Besides, you're being unrealistic if you think that if he's banned nobody will play him. Everyone who likes him so much will take any new ATs found for anyone else and test them against MK so they can have him unbanned, if they work out. That alone should bring him back if he's ever allowed to be. But there's really no evidence or strong reason to expect this, given the trends and amount of time that's already been put into finding ways to fight MK.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Maybe if people actually spent time working on other characters that need improvement like Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon and getting New AT's for them instead of MK he wouldn't be so unbeatable anymore if we learned AT's against MK.

 

[brinboy789]

Have you ever heard of spamming the b up and the mach tornado online? Try spacing your attacks to out prioritze him online in the lag. GG

mach tornado i understand but i rarely use it though

up+B? what up+B and then glide attack and repeat? it gets predictable after a while.

 

[brinboy789]

Maybe if people actually spent time working on other characters that need improvement like Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon and getting New AT's for them instead of MK he wouldn't be so unbeatable anymore if we learned AT's against MK.

there hasnt been a new AT for MK since the IDC, which was a long time ago. sorry for double post

 

[Jigglymaster]

mach tornado i understand but i rarely use it though

up+B? what up+B and then glide attack and repeat? it gets predictable after a while.

Not if you space it correctly and use it Immediatly after. Opponents cant stop it.

Also check the MK boards with hyrlian and his AT on beating G&W with MK.

 

[brinboy789]

Not if you space it correctly and use it Immediatly after. Opponents cant stop it.

Also check the MK boards with hyrlian and his AT on beating G&W with MK.

its not an AT...its just a way to beat G&W. like a matchup chart. and even if that was an AT, its like the first one in forever since the IDC

 

[Plairnkk]

Bum wins tournies, but beaten by two MKs at the last tournamnet
Azen wins tournies, but goes MK in the end
Chu wins tournies... in Melee. Regardless, I believe he agrees with Chillin.
Chillin wins tournies, but wants MK banned.
M2k wins tournies (with ddd)... like 3 months into the game's lifespan.
Futile wins tournies, but only when DSF and his MK don't show up
sk92 wins tournies.... NOT! He also got beat by Lee Harris' MK, I believe.

Azen doesn't go MK in the end, he is lucario WAY more often than MK, and beats many MKs with lucario who he cant beat in dittos.

Melee success has nothing to do with the brokeness of a brawl character, if mk was truly broken he wouldnt be able to beat it. And ive never seen chu whine about mk, ever.

Chillin also thought sheik was the best in melee til the day it died.

m2k would still win tournies with ddd

wc has no good mks, so im not surprised he loses that match

and sk92 does very well in vegas tournies


also d.a kid i play a lot of chars besides MK, and i abuse the gayest things about every single character. I make people whine about a new character weekly

 

[Skink]

If you keep MK in for the purpose of searching for an AT against him, all it does it open up one more slot that is able to (maybe) be used. It doesnt cure the problem at all. All it does it make whoever has said AT more viable than previously. MK still ***** everyone else, it just turns tourneys into a game of rock paper scissors to a greater extent than it is already.

 

[brinboy789]

If you keep MK in for the purpose of searching for an AT against him, all it does it open up one more slot that is able to (maybe) be used. It doesnt cure the problem at all. All it does it make whoever has said AT more viable than previously. MK still ***** everyone else, it just turns tourneys into a game of rock paper scissors to a greater extent than it is already.

we have to wait before we ban MK. its only been a little bit (compared to melee) since brawl came out, so yes we have to wait for AT's to be discovered that are against him. and if he is banned, then how are the AT's supposed to develop? theyre not going to be using or testing anything on a banned character.

 

[RP`]

How are you going to discover AT's for other characters if nobody plays them? MK is currently hindering the metagame.

 

[brinboy789]

How are you going to discover AT's for other characters if nobody plays them? MK is currently hindering the metagame.

the part that i italicized and bolded and underlined is not true

 

[Doctor X]

I honestly think that this sort of discussion being taken seriously so early on is an embarrassment to the community. I have an idea for Overswarm and others. Instead of complaining about how you can't put the matchups in your favor, try playing better. That's what people did to Fox and Sheik. I don't see why it should be any different for Meta. (Some scrubs did try to get Sheik banned in Melee way back in the day, though... Maybe history repeats itself? >.<)

I also have faith that M2K would win national tournaments consistently with or without MK, and no other MK does. Maybe some of you need to face the reality that he's just really good at smash.

 

[Skink]

You missed the point. My point is even if an AT is discovered that can beat MK, it would probably just be for one character, and the problem would just keep going. Except it would turn into rock paper scissors with MK beating everyone but the one guy who has some lame infinate or something. It doesn't help the game much. The other point is that since MK is just plain better than everyone else, the only way to really get around it is to not use him if you want a fair game. (or at least a game with a reasonably fair match for a good portion of characters)

 

[1048576]

Sheik...wasn't...even...close.

Duh

 

[da K.I.D.]

and if he is banned, then how are the AT's supposed to develop? theyre not going to be using or testing anything on a banned character.

How are you going to discover AT's for other characters if nobody plays them? MK is currently hindering the metagame.

this is the infinitely looping conundrum...


personally i think it like this:

Right now, MK is banning every other character in the game.

I have an idea for Overswarm and others. Instead of complaining about how you can't put the matchups in your favor, try playing better.

This is what every single person that switches to MK to win tourneys is doing. Its just that getting better involves playing MK

Meta Knight makes every one play better...

 

[brinboy789]

question: i don't see or hear about any players that quit smash because of MK. did anybody? because i dont think anybody did. and contrary to popular belief, except to tier whores, people are not switching to MK. or at least not that i know of

 

[XienZo]

The thing I don't like about trying to find ATs is that its like trying to fish through a hole in the ice; there might be tons of fish that haven't bit yet, there might be no fish, or there might be a shark that could eat us all.

In other words, there is nothing that keeps the game from having a finite amount of ATs that could have already been found, and we might have found them all.

Furthermore, if there are more, they're not guaranteed to hurt MK at all. There might be a new AT that could help MK even more?

So then we ban him, right?

BUt what if people go "Look, we just found an AT, I bet there's another one that'll hurt him even more than this one helped"

The thing is, we don't know for sure....


OOH, I JUST REMEMBERED A MATHEMATICAL FORMULA

You take the estimate amount of total major ATs that will be found in Brawl. You divide the number by e and round. If there hasn't been an AT that saves MK within that amount, its a loss to keep going and look, but simply to give up...

I think... anyone remember the exact formula and where it applies?

 

[rehab]

Why has it become so unconsiderably hard to outspace Metaknight with a character who has the range to do it that we ignore the fact that he doesn't even **** most viably good characters (INB4 ONRY METAKNIGHT IS VIABLE) that hard? Azen doesn't beat Metakngihts using forbidden magics, he does it by spacing amazingly and learning to player something fierce. Why can't we aspire to greater things?

Also pretty much everything Doctor X said

 

[da K.I.D.]

question: i don't see or hear about any players that quit smash because of MK. did anybody? because i dont think anybody did. and contrary to popular belief, except to tier whores, people are not switching to MK. or at least not that i know of

where are you from? what tourneys do you go to?
i would really like to know

 

[choknater]

da K.I.D. will never give up

the kid... with the skill to survive!!!!

maybe he is rocky balboa on smashboards

 

[da K.I.D.]

i feel bad cus ive basically replied to every other post for like 2 days straight

 

[Daimonster]

I am abandoning this thread.

 

[hotgarbage]

I'm eating some ice cream

 

[Doctor X]

Sheik...wasn't...even...close.

Duh

And MK's not even close to being as bad as people make it sound.

Plus the potential ban of Sheik was supported by the exact same arguments as MK. No bad stages, no true counters, easy to play, etc. Her chaingrab ***** more than half the cast and her fair killed everything at stupid percents. Hell, I don't think Sheik ever had a real counter until Chu came along with his IC's.

This is what every single person that switches to MK to win tourneys is doing. Its just that getting better involves playing MK

Meta Knight makes every one play better...

Now, can you think of one example of somebody who just decided to switch to MK and won a national tournament? M2K has played him from the beginning, really, and nobody else, despite the number of people switching, seems to be capable of competing on his level.

 

[Overswarm]

Now, can you think of one example of somebody who just decided to switch to MK and won a national tournament? M2K has played him from the beginning, really, and nobody else, despite the number of people switching, seems to be capable of competing on his level.

Actually, M2K switched from D3 to MK.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and its clear that nobody is on M2Ks level but if you look at the like 10 best ppl below him, they all play MK

 

[Doctor X]

Actually, M2K switched from D3 to MK.

He did it months ago because he thought the character was good, not because everybody else was winning tournaments with him.

And he still plays D3, doesn't he?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

edit:^ no he doesn't

Actually, M2K switched from D3 to MK.

This. He didn't Use D3 at all at hobo 11 now.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

m2k also used to play marth and i think olimar. not sure.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

MK is banned at hobo 12 now. TOs seem to agree that MK is ban worthy, who are the people argueing against it just random players?

 

[da K.I.D.]

post 2999 makes me lol at choknater