asob4
Smash Champion
rob, marth, peach, luigi, MK, kirby, yoshi, squirtle, sheik, and arguably wolf all beat olimar
in no way is he the best character
in no way is he the best character
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
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Inui
Banned via Warnings
It's not my fault that you didn't camp hard/intelligent enough to never get approached.
Mew2King and teh_spamerer would win regardless of character choice. What part of that don't you understand? Everything else gets won by stuff like Azen's Lucario and Bum's DK.
I don't think he has a disadvantage, and neither does teh_spamerer.
It's not my fault that most Snake players suck and don't camp enough. Like I said, turn on the CAMP to full power and Snake doesn't lose to anything. Just drop grenades, wait for opportunities to f-tilt or dash attack, drop C4s, run away a lot, etc. This is extremely hard for Dedede to deal with, and he's supposed to be Snake's worst match.
Tournament experiences prove everything. Character data is good for Super Theory Bros. Brawl, but what actually happens in real matches matters significantly more than anything else to me.
Ether, a pretty intelligent player, said something similar to this.
Okay? Majority opinion =/= correct opinion. The majority wants MK banned and I think you're all terribly wrong and a little too butt-hurt over losing to bad MKs due to not knowing the match-up.
Most Olimars have no idea how good their character really is. They CLEARLY don't camp enough and abuse how hard it is to approach their character. This is proven by them...not winning.
Snake has no bad matches besides very slight counters in Dedede, Olimar, and Falco if you camp massively and play intelligently. He can do 21 damage with a huge 4 frame move. He's stupidly good and people don't understand it because they're too busy being butt-hurt over losing to bad MKs.
I'd say Marth and MK win slightly.
Other characters, nah.
Learn to camp harder.
M.K
Level 55
Uhm, no. How about you yank your head out of your *** and face the facts instead of needlessly bashing someone.
Tip for next time: Use a linking verb.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
this is generally the formula for playing against DDD no matter who you are, unfortunately. the thought of more people picking up DDD as their main alone makes me want MK to stay, god even when I win lopsidedly against him I hate every second of it...not that this is at all a legitimate argument regarding whether or not he should be banned, just how I feel...then again super gay gives you sort of an evil sense of satisfaction when it works mmmm
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
Well, of the 23 wins MK has in Oct/Sept, only 1 is from Inui, and only 4 are from m2k. Just to put that out there.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Ad hominem=ignored
Are you, incapable of comprehending what I stated.
m2k and spamerer are that good.
Again you ignored the friggin Akuma examle I provided.
The top 3 players remained the top 3 even after Akuma was banned. This did not change the fact Akuma was not ban worthy.
Stop skimming read more.
Again thats nice. Counter the overall data.
i am going to stop arguing with you if you don't provide any substantial evidence.
I can say the same thing for Sonic.
Spam your dash attack. Use your Usmash and side B invincibility frames!
Run away alot. hit and run!
Again thats completely ignoring the capabilities of the character.
DDD does not allow Snake to abuse grenades.
DDD can deal with Snake's Ftilt.
DDD can deal with the dash attack (which isn't really gay)
Again all you are saying do so and so. Do you honestly believe that the opponent is incapable of dealing with such behavior?
This is just baseless arguments.
Dude I've played in tournaments as well, won a few, lost a few.
Thats nice and all but proves nothing if the argument says nothing and when tournament DATA disagrees with you.
yeah and the statistical data of those real matches disagree.
Don't be a hypocrite either Inui. you do tons of theory crafting. hell you did it in your own post.
M2k is the best palyer. But his arguments are terrible.
Being intelligent means nothing if you cannot actually prove your argument.
True but it is closer to the correct opinion especially when the data agrees with it.
Ad hominem.
inui if you cannot restrain yourself in making snarky remarks then I advise you cease debating.
you, an Mk/Marth user are talking about Olimar mains not knowing about their character.
I wish dangr are ASB04 was here oh that would be great.
They are realistic.
You must be kidding yourself.
Were you not around during April. Everyone was bawing about Snake and guess whatt happened.
The metagame centered around beating Snake and look what happened. Snake fell, it turned out he wasn't too bad.
now you're just falling to putting in ad hominems along with an argument devoid of supportive points.
tl;dr: You're wrong.
Thats nice and all inui now prove it. all I have heard is camp harder, well explain how they do it. Explain how they bypass the other characters capabilities.
Don't accuse anyone of theory crafting when you do so but at a much worse degree.
At least people who theory craft support the theories, you have yet to do so.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
woooooooowwww....
this one line of text just completely destroyed 50% of inuis entire argument. Rofl!
now, since you have decided to take the route of disputing what is basically proven fact in that MK is the best character, allow me to do the same...
M2K to my knowledge, hasnt won a tournament with anyone beside MK in something close to five months. with that knowledge, who is to say that right now he is the best player? how do we know that he isnt taking full advantage of a broken character? you say hes the best and that he would win anyway, but how do you really know that? because when the game first came out he played D3? the game and ppls strats against D3 have gotten considerably better since he stopped playing him in tourney. who is to say that he would still win? its possible that he is the best player, but at this point its just as possible that he is the only one that understands exactly how broken Mk really is, and at this point, cant win without him
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The sigs get cutoff for some reason.
Sonic for bottom of bottom tier!
Sonic for bottom of bottom tier!
I agree with the OP entirely. Of course, it may seem that the opinion of someone that never posts has next to no credibility. I do, however, play smash competitively alot and it is clear to me that metaknight is wildly overpowered. I refuse to play him due to my utter disgust for such a broken character. I, like I said, play smash competitvely, but I will no longer if Metaknight is never banned. It's pointless. Metaknight single handedly destroys all of brawls balance - what little it was desperately clutching to. I hope that he is banned, because I love Brawl.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
this argument is really, really silly.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
this guy is DEFINITELY not the only one who feels this way
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
its just as silly as teh argument that MK is not the best character in this game...
if inuis silly argument is valid than mine is as well
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Didn't you switch FROM snake TO Metaknight? I'm not too sure, but I think you didn't switch to Snake to start doing better. There must... be... some reason....
You're right. Those people constantly playing with him are totally in the dark and only enlightened by someone who probably can't visualize what his d-tilt looks like.
Here we go.
So Snake, according to you, has no bad matches except for very slight counters that he can easily deal with.
You claim Snake does well against Metaknight.
Logically, one would assume as Metaknight's popularity skyrockets, Snake as a main and secondary (at least as an MK counter) would rise as well. There should be a direct correlation between the number of MKs and the number of Snakes, just as there should be an indirect correlation between the number of MKs and the number of ROB players due to MK countering ROB.
Snake's numbers have not increased.
Why is this?
Don't say because people "don't camp hard enough" or because people are "just bad". People want to beat Metaknight and would be trying anything.
You have no idea who you're talking to, do you? -_-;;
Go watch my set vs. Jiano on youtube from early in the game's life... that's how I ENJOY playing =P
Natch
Smash Ace
Is it possible to put a gag-order on somebody to prevent them from posting in a topic?
Or is it time for the torch and pitchforks?
Or is it time for the torch and pitchforks?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
OS the camper.
Dude you need better initials. I keep thinking Operating System (would fit for ROB)
Dude you need better initials. I keep thinking Operating System (would fit for ROB)
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
A) fallacious logic, you can't use the invalidity of someone elses argument to justify your own
B) it's really not. MK is without a doubt to me the best character in the game, but suggesting snake isn't so absurd, he is comparable outside of a couple of bad matchups where he gets CG'd or camped to death...it's wrong, but it's not as wrong as claiming top players would suddenly be powerless without MK, if it was just MK making them great, it wouldn't always be the same players winning, given how large MK's userbase is. yeah, I definitely agree that MK is beyond anyone else overall, but the two arguments are leagues apart in overall absurdity
This is pretty much the entire point of my argument as to why MK shouldnt be banned. The players winning tournaments are the same as they were in melee 90% of the time. Skill between melee and brawl is almost directly coorelated, so when myself, m2k, and dsf are winning a lot what is the surprise?? It's not MK, it's the player. Inui did win a tournament with MK, sure. Did inui win big tournaments in melee? No. But would inui have won that tournament with MK if there were OTHER big name players there? Certainly not.
I almost want to see MK get banned just to see where the scrubs who are looking for a john as to why they lose go next.
Here's the bottom line. Some people have a competitive attitude and will succeed in competitive games. I am one of them. I play to win, period. I will use the best character because I will not be limited by my character. If MK is banned i'll just use the next best character and win with him, as will the rest of the players (more talented players than the scrubs whining) and we will continue winning.
I think the whole "OMG MK NEEDS TO BE BANNED" movement is nothing more than an outrage stemming out from the fact that people are realizing that brawl is not a new start. Players who sucked in melee but thought they could be good at brawl seem to be the ones leading the stampeed against MK.
News flash, MK doesn't make you lose. You being a less talented player makes you lose.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
You brought a shovel and I brought a drill, so I have a deeper bottom line!
The thing is, everyone who is really competitive and is just plain playing to win (as in, that is the most important thing. More than fun, more than character choice, more than anything) will always switch to the "best character". The problem is that there is a big consensus on who that best character is. Everyone worthwhile will switch to MK. In Melee, people could play multiple characters and still be playing to win. Could you honestly talk someone down for playing Fox in Melee if you thought Marth was the best, or vice versa? You can do that easily in Brawl; you say "Play Metaknight" because no one else compares.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Ike. End thread.
I think any of the players I mentioned could play a different character and win, we've just chosen metaknight. M2k would win with ddd, dsf would win with snake. Azen wins with lucario, chillin falco/snake, chu kirby. The good players win regardless of who they choose to play. The thing is people only complain when they lose to the ones who pick metaknight.
Discolicious
Smash Apprentice
Metaknight mainers are gonna hate Brawl+ but it's coming boys and girls and nothing in brawl+ helps metaknight much so he can stick around for all I care.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Then why don't they just stick with others that aren't MK? [/rhetorical]
This is probably the BEST solution thus far.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
Instead of banning Meta I say we just hack the game and rename him "Sir Shortypants" and require everybody to skip everywhere they go if they choose him at tournaments.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
I really think we need more Snakes and Olimars, rather than fewer MKs.
This is just an opinion, I can't really back it up.
This is just an opinion, I can't really back it up.
LatexRhombus
Smash Journeyman
well, of course more other characters are needed, but the point is people play to win as has been stated, so the point is, everyone who wants to win, should ultimatley switch to metaknight because face it, his disadvantages are so limited...if he isnt removed everyone should play as him, which is pretty stupid...
also, if the best players argue that the player is the person that wins, then why the hell would they care if mk gets banned, they say they will still win...
finally, as things are today, mk is too good...if more is discovered later and he mysteriously isnt too good anymore, he can always be brought back...a ban doesnt have to be permanent
also, if the best players argue that the player is the person that wins, then why the hell would they care if mk gets banned, they say they will still win...
finally, as things are today, mk is too good...if more is discovered later and he mysteriously isnt too good anymore, he can always be brought back...a ban doesnt have to be permanent
It was cooler when you won with Ganondorf.
AlAxe
Smash Journeyman
You're very right. Without MK the best players would continue to win. Nothing is going to change that. The thing is, Brawl is just not interesting with MK. The only way to win at the most competitive level is to play MK, and most people just find that boring. Nobody wants to see tournaments devolve into a bunch of MK dittos, that would be lame as f***. The misconception is that people want to ban MK because they're butthurt about loosing to him. The truth is that the game is just not good with MK. There's no allure, it's just not as much fun. If MK is not banned people will eventually leave the game because better, more interesting games will come along. This is why MK needs to be banned.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Olimar and Snake actually strike me as better characters than MK. I don't quite get whats holding them back.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Metaknight
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
^LMAO^
OS, You're always so cynical...
(It cracks me up...)
OS, You're always so cynical...
(It cracks me up...)
By the way:
Other games have one character that only has an even matchup or two, right? So this means you can't ban MK in Brawl because that character isn't banned, right?
But what happens when you look at the best of 3 and that matchup?
In other games, because the stages don't severely influence the matchup, you get a 50:50, 50:50, and 50:50 matchup. That's not a problem, that second character is viable versus the extremely good one and two even skilled players will flip coins every round.
But for MK with the counterpick system, that's not how it plays out. It goes 50:50, but then 60:40 (MK) and 45:55 (MK's opponent). Basically, as long as MK can counterpick to a worse disadvantage than his opponent, you're no longer just flipping coins -- the MK player gets a free edge from playing MK. So the "neutrals" aren't true neutrals in a tournament set.
And that is why you can't look at other games with characters that only have a couple neutrals and say that's why MK can't be banned -- over a tournament set, MK doesn't have any neutrals left.
This will change if people actually discover a way to bring down MK, but that hasn't been found yet and I'm still not optimistic about it being located.
Other games have one character that only has an even matchup or two, right? So this means you can't ban MK in Brawl because that character isn't banned, right?
But what happens when you look at the best of 3 and that matchup?
In other games, because the stages don't severely influence the matchup, you get a 50:50, 50:50, and 50:50 matchup. That's not a problem, that second character is viable versus the extremely good one and two even skilled players will flip coins every round.
But for MK with the counterpick system, that's not how it plays out. It goes 50:50, but then 60:40 (MK) and 45:55 (MK's opponent). Basically, as long as MK can counterpick to a worse disadvantage than his opponent, you're no longer just flipping coins -- the MK player gets a free edge from playing MK. So the "neutrals" aren't true neutrals in a tournament set.
And that is why you can't look at other games with characters that only have a couple neutrals and say that's why MK can't be banned -- over a tournament set, MK doesn't have any neutrals left.
This will change if people actually discover a way to bring down MK, but that hasn't been found yet and I'm still not optimistic about it being located.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
in the words of the man who made this game...
"you must recover"
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Terios is smart.
If that worked so easily, people would have taken MK down by now.
Terios should take that over to Dojo's thread and see if anyone hasn't tried it already.
Good players have taken MK down.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i think terios was missing a few things though...
if you are playing against an MK and just standing still playing defensive, Mk has the 7 options he listed, and more, and even then, he can also mix and match them to his leisure, examples:
8. walk up and f-tilt
9. walk up and d-tilt
10. roll behind to bait a reaction.
11. run and shield.
12. pivotgrab
13. f/d-air to tornado
14. walk and forward smash
15. walk and down smash
16. forward air to down tilt
17. empty hop/SHAD to all 16 of the above.
we seem to be stuck in the idea that MK does stuff that only MK can do. this is not true, MK can do everything any other character can do to approach, and THAN, transition that into things that only he can do.
if you are playing against an MK and just standing still playing defensive, Mk has the 7 options he listed, and more, and even then, he can also mix and match them to his leisure, examples:
8. walk up and f-tilt
9. walk up and d-tilt
10. roll behind to bait a reaction.
11. run and shield.
12. pivotgrab
13. f/d-air to tornado
14. walk and forward smash
15. walk and down smash
16. forward air to down tilt
17. empty hop/SHAD to all 16 of the above.
we seem to be stuck in the idea that MK does stuff that only MK can do. this is not true, MK can do everything any other character can do to approach, and THAN, transition that into things that only he can do.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
consistently?
from what ive heard and seen, Mk still beat the people that you are probably thinking of
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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- 6,860
It's very clear that you know very little about Olimar and his matchups. You lost a couple matches to the best camping/defensive character in the game, not a perfect one.
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