I'd like to start off saying that I actually enjoy debating ShadowLink84.
Are you, incapable of comprehending what I stated.
m2k and spamerer are that good.
Again you ignored the friggin Akuma examle I provided.
The top 3 players remained the top 3 even after Akuma was banned. This did not change the fact Akuma was not ban worthy.
Stop skimming read more.
Akuma is literally broken. He can't be beaten unless you're way better than the other person. This is not the case with MK at all. Banning MK won't create more character diversity at all.
In NJ, for instance, the top two characters at every tournament with M2K and teh_spamerer would change to Dedede and Snake. Nothing else would change.
Again thats nice. Counter the overall data.
i am going to stop arguing with you if you don't provide any substantial evidence.
I can say the same thing for Sonic.
Spam your dash attack. Use your Usmash and side B invincibility frames!
Run away alot. hit and run!
Again thats completely ignoring the capabilities of the character.
DDD does not allow Snake to abuse grenades.
DDD can deal with Snake's Ftilt.
DDD can deal with the dash attack (which isn't really gay)
Again all you are saying do so and so. Do you honestly believe that the opponent is incapable of dealing with such behavior?
This is just baseless arguments.
Pikachu, ROB, Olimar, Wario, DDD ring a bell?
He has a disadvantage against all of those.
He doesn't cripple the majority of the cast because he doesn't go 70/30 against everyone.
most are 60/40 because of his weaknesses.
Snake vs Pikachu:
-Pikachu has no moves that outrange Snake's f-tilt and loses in priority to him almost all the time.
-Pikachu dies at ~90% on neutrals(less if you connect a d-air, n-air, or f-smash), and Snake lives to 120%+ consistently.
-Pikachu's thundershock isn't fast enough or spammable enough to stop Snake from camping. He can dash attack in safely to punish thundershocks.
-Pikachu's d-smash and d-b are generally very hard to punish, but Snake can punish all of that easily with his f-tilt.
-Snake can even destroy Pikachu's recovery options by jumping off and throwing out n-air.
Snake vs ROB:
-ROB is amazing at camping, but Snake can camp back easily by throwing grenades.
-Snake lives an extremely long time against ROB because ROB's ability to kill sucks. Snake living much longer is his biggest advantage, like in most matches.
-ROB doesn't live as long as most heavier characters vertically because he's floaty, so he actually dies early to u-tilt.
-ROB loves outranging everyone with his tilts and spamming sidestep, but Snake's range is amazing and he can just stand there and hold down A to destroy ROB's sidestep abuse.
-When ROB is floating around in the air, he's not hard to n-air with Snake because two of his aerials are really slow. His u-air will lose to Snake's b-air.
Snake vs Olimar:
-Olimar is extremely light. Snake can kill him at low percents without even gimping him due to this.
-Olimar's range on the ground is insane...but so is Snake's, so he can easily compete with Olimar's nonsense.
-Snake can actually punish Olimar's grab with his f-tilt.
-Snake can edgeguard well with b-air because it lasts so long and is huge.
-Olimar loses almost every move exchange because Snake has much more priority.
-Snake can handle Olimar's camping thanks to grenades and his dash attack.
Snake vs Wario:
-Grab release --> n-air/u-tilt. This crushes Wario tremendously because that's 29% and a guaranteed kill move that can hit Wario after a grab.
-Snake can punish Wario's usually very hard to punish d-air and f-air with his f-tilt.
-Snake can outprioritize Wario's d-air and f-air with u-tilt, which shuts down his zoning.
-Wario loves being fat and living forever, but Snake says "nah" by having insane KO power.
Snake vs Dedede:
-Grenades easily stop Dedede from grabbing and CGing. They will blow up and stop Dedede from CGing. All of Dedede's throws have an external hit to them that will cause the grenade to explode.
-Snake's camping is really hard for Dedede to work around because he's slow and huge.
-Snake's f-tilt is two frames faster than Dedede's grab, so if he f-tilts first, he'll always win.
-Dedede is slow in the air, too, making him somewhat easy prey for Snake's n-air, which does massive damage.
-Dedede annoys everyone by living forever. Most characters either do lots of damage but can't kill, like ROB and Sheik, or they have insane kill power but have trouble dealing damage for various reasons, like Ganondorf and DK. Snake is good at BOTH, so that stops Dedede's obesity from annoying Snake.
Overall stuff people really need to understand:
-This is Brawl. Camp harder. Camping is extremely hard to deal with, especially camping with a top tier character like Snake.
-Snake punishes almost every mistake with a huge move that does 21% damage. No other character has a consistent punisher that devasting.
-Snake can score low percent kills with n-air, f-smash, C4, and d-air. D-throw --> tech-chase d-air can kill most characters at ~75% even on larger stages. Most characters can't do something that simple to get a low damage kill.
Snake won't be special anymore, imo, if Meta Knight is banned. I think his biggest plus in the tournament scene is beating Meta Knight. Falco, Olimar, Dedede, and Game and Watch are all better than him without Meta Knight because those characters all lose a counter and Snake loses his most important win.
Dude I've played in tournaments as well, won a few, lost a few.
Thats nice and all but proves nothing if the argument says nothing and when tournament DATA disagrees with you.
Atlantic North data really doesn't. I went through Ankoku's archive dating back to May all the way up until last weekend, and Meta Knight only a few tournaments...and it was just Mew2King and teh_spamerer. Azen won with Lucario and Diddy, ChuDat won with Kirby, NinjaLink won with whatever he felt like using, Bum won with DK, Atomsk won with Dedede and stuff, etc.
M2k is the best palyer. But his arguments are terrible.
Being intelligent means nothing if you cannot actually prove your argument.
I don't think his arguments are terrible at all, but that's because I know him personally and get to hear them in person. It also doesn't help that I almost always agree with him. I'd say it's generally smart to listen to him if he's the best player in the world.
True but it is closer to the correct opinion especially when the data agrees with it.
"Data" also shows that there are very few high level Snakes and Diddys outside of Atlantic North to stop those big bad MKs from winning everywhere else.
inui if you cannot restrain yourself in making snarky remarks then I advise you cease debating.
I'll do both LOL. It's how I feel. I think a lot of you are too angry about losing to random MKs due to not knowing the match-up well enough. I NEVER lost to a bad MK with whatever character I used, including Pit, who is ***** by MK.
you, an Mk/Marth user are talking about Olimar mains not knowing about their character.
I wish dangr are ASB04 was here oh that would be great.
They are realistic.
I don't need to main Olimar to know he's an extremely good character. Mew2King and teh_spamerer agree he's amazing and underrated. Atomsk, who now uses Olimar as one of his tournament mains and has been dabbling in Olimar for a long time, thinks Olimar is the absolute best character. BlackWaltz, an Olimar main from the start that used to think Olimar wasn't that special, now thinks Olimar is extremely good. Plenty of high level players around me all think Olimar is amazing, so pardon me for agreeing with them.
You must be kidding yourself.
Were you not around during April. Everyone was bawing about Snake and guess whatt happened.
The metagame centered around beating Snake and look what happened. Snake fell, it turned out he wasn't too bad.
I think I have results from about 5 tournaments in April that I attended, and I did really well with Pit and Marth. Snake didn't win ANYTHING in NJ, PA, or MD/VA. In fact, I think Snake has taken 1st 0 times in those areas. Whining about Snake never occured.
If the metagame turned into "how do I beat Snake" everywhere else and solutions were found, then do the same with Meta Knight and learn how to win.
tl;dr: You're wrong.
Thats nice and all inui now prove it. all I have heard is camp harder, well explain how they do it. Explain how they bypass the other characters capabilities.
Don't accuse anyone of theory crafting when you do so but at a much worse degree.
At least people who theory craft support the theories, you have yet to do so.
-Olimar's f-b = most versatile and best projectile in the game. Since he use it while moving backwards, forwards, etc. and throw it at an angle, it can go over anyone else's camping and penetrate virtually any defences.
-Olimar's f-b forces characters to pay attention to hitting them off of them and it can dimish some character's good moves because they have few options to get Pikmin off, like Dedede being forced to use u-tilt a lot.
-Olimar's grab is nearly unpunishable and gigantic. Unless you have multiple jumps or extremely fast moves with huge hitboxes (MK and Snake do all right) or some sort of magical one-frame escape (Marth ftw), you can't approach Olimar safely. Wolf has his f-smash and he has a good blaster, so I'll say Wolf does all right.
-Olimar can grab combo EVERYONE at low percent. In fact, he can combo MK to about 40%, which is halfway to death for him because of purples. On fast fallers, it's nearly to death. I've seen BlackWaltz death combo a lot of characters with Olimar.
Basically, Olimar camping with Pikmin and playing defensive to score grabs = nearly unstoppable to the vast majority of the cast. The only way to win is to hope for mistakes and punish them. You have to get Olimar in the air and then guess right.
da K.I.D. said:
woooooooowwww....
this one line of text just completely destroyed 50% of inuis entire argument. Rofl!
now, since you have decided to take the route of disputing what is basically proven fact in that MK is the best character, allow me to do the same...
M2K to my knowledge, hasnt won a tournament with anyone beside MK in something close to five months. with that knowledge, who is to say that right now he is the best player? how do we know that he isnt taking full advantage of a broken character? you say hes the best and that he would win anyway, but how do you really know that? because when the game first came out he played D3? the game and ppls strats against D3 have gotten considerably better since he stopped playing him in tourney. who is to say that he would still win? its possible that he is the best player, but at this point its just as possible that he is the only one that understands exactly how broken Mk really is, and at this point, cant win without him
No, it didn't. The amount of points assigned to MK are based on entry fee and total entrants, as well. Mew2King as won major large tournaments, netting MK a lot of points. That's what I was talking about.
He needed Dedede to win FAST, and that wasn't 5 months ago. He also needed Dedede against Atomsk in August because, *GASP*, Atomsk beat his Meta Knight in the first match and Mew2King was scared of Atomsk switching to Diddy.
I know Mew2King would still win with Dedede and Snake because I've seen it myself. I watched him beat Chillin's MK with Snake 2-0 in tourny, twostock low % both matches. I watched him use Dedede and beat Reflex to win FAST. I watched him beat Atomsk with Dedede. This isn't ancient stuff. It's recent. I play Mew2King and see him often, and he's really good with other characters and basically just as overwhelming.
Stop saying MK is broken. He's not. He can lose.
its just as silly as teh argument that MK is not the best character in this game...
if inuis silly argument is valid than mine is as well
You are certainly are the pinnacle of high level play, perfectly capable of saying that and being correct.
Just like everyone said Sheik was the best and should be banned a long time ago.
Overswarm said:
Didn't you switch FROM snake TO Metaknight? I'm not too sure, but I think you didn't switch to Snake to start doing better. There must... be... some reason....
No. I switched from Marth to Meta Knight. Snake was a frequent teams character as well as my COUNTER for Meta Knights.
I switched not just because Meta Knight is better and I was tired of having 4-5 mains to cover bad matches so much, but because he's significantly more fun than most characters because he doesn't have to camp nearly as much as the rest of the cast. Now I just use Snake to counterpick other MKs due to me hating the ditto and I keep my Dedede around for when I feel like beating characters like Wolf without having to use my brain and for Snakes.
You're right. Those people constantly playing with him are totally in the dark and only enlightened by someone who probably can't visualize what his d-tilt looks like.
I have a lot of Olimar experience, so I know what his d-tilt looks like.
The people constantly playing with him aren't top level players. What Olimars are doing really well when lots of good players are around? If you know any, let me know. I'll listen to them about Olimar if they claim he loses so many matches.
Here we go.
So Snake, according to you, has no bad matches except for very slight counters that he can easily deal with.
You claim Snake does well against Metaknight.
Logically, one would assume as Metaknight's popularity skyrockets, Snake as a main and secondary (at least as an MK counter) would rise as well. There should be a direct correlation between the number of MKs and the number of Snakes, just as there should be an indirect correlation between the number of MKs and the number of ROB players due to MK countering ROB.
Snake's numbers have not increased.
Why is this?
Don't say because people "don't camp hard enough" or because people are "just bad". People want to beat Metaknight and would be trying anything.
I honestly don't know. There actually has been a slight rise in Snakes over here in the past few months. Yes! recently improved drastically and G-regulate established himself as a top Snake. Candy got really good. Chillin also uses Snake a lot. teh_spamerer has been using Snake more.
I can't explain why the number of good Snakes hasn't gone up elsewhere. It's either a lack of understanding about how good Snake really is or an actual lack of skill.
You have no idea who you're talking to, do you? -_-;;
Go watch my set vs. Jiano on youtube from early in the game's life... that's how I ENJOY playing =P
Then how come you have trouble with MKs? Camping with Snake against them is amazing. Have you really tried it and worked on it?
Plairnkk said:
News flash, MK doesn't make you lose. You being a less talented player makes you lose.
QFT
Btw, I did get 1st with two other players I'd consider top players there, and I could have gotten 1st with Atomsk there, even. I've taken two sets from him recently.
The Halloween Captain said:
Olimar and Snake actually strike me as better characters than MK. I don't quite get whats holding them back.
Bless your heart, good sir!
Marth has the advantage of superior ground speed.
