It's the Mickey Mouse.slippery slope theory
Why do my posts keep on being ignored >_>
thanks, it makes more sense now lol. had no idea what SS stood for ;l
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It's the Mickey Mouse.slippery slope theory
Why do my posts keep on being ignored >_>
Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.Except all those characters already have known counters beyond 55:45 against them, and can be stage counterpicked to make those disadvantages worse. The SS theory fails.
Nothing about his opinion on the ban though. xDEven the tornado isn't 100%...falco can double jump backwards and then sweetspot the ledge with phantasm if he sees the 'nado coming. And then its a ledge hop overB to punish tornado landing -> airdodge baitin' time.
'Course, if the MK thinks falco will avoid the tornado, he can just wait and edgehog/powershield -> grab (since the falco will be relatively close after landing, b/c jumping back.)
quote for freakin truth, man. >__>@Tenki: that makes 2 of us who have noticed...only several thousand more need to ^_^ It's like the McCain/Palin method, except much better executed than Palin and McCain have been doing.
lolUh... he also doesn't like being recorded mostly because he gets nervous and doesn't play very well under those conditions. I know where he's coming from 'cause I've played like **** sometimes whenever I was being recorded out of nervousness.
I find it amusing that you list so many more Anti-ban people. One would think you're trying to emphasize the known players on one side.Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.
re: ad hominem attacks: It is a FACT, with evidence earlier this thread, that OS lost to 2 MKs in a tournie, and thus began his campaign. He said, and one of his friends said it. So that in itself is not an attack. And it also isn't saying that their point isn't valid--I'm simply pointing out that the pro-ban movement was started because of OS channelling and directing other players, many of whom aren't anywhere near a level where they could compete viably, and thus can't really comment, frustration.
Let's look at respected smashers on each side, including those that are voicing their opinions:
Pro-Ban:
LeeHarris<--the MK rags to riches player, and strong MK.
OS.<--self admitted personal reasons behind supporting ban
--noticeably lacking on this list is Sethalon, who is LeeHarris's anti-MK poster boy, who lost to LH's inexperienced MK with falcom who is considered even. Why hasn't he said he thinks the matchup is completely MK's favor.
Anti-Ban:
M2K<--results-wise the best brawl player. Has proven his ability to win with DDD against MKs.
Inui<--placed well before using MK, and has told us of possible chars to pick against MK
Atomsk<--an olimar main who beats strong MKs
Snakee<--ZSS player, who believes the matchup isn't hopeless does well against strong MKs
Ninja_Link<--Diddy player that beats strong MKs
AlphaZealot<--Diddy player who believes in DdK's potential.
So until we exhaust the potential of Olimar, Yoshi, Snake, Diddy, Falco, DDD, we can't say that MK is inherently more advantageous than these chars.
He has disadvantages and even match ups, as of the moment and well, for the last 500 pages, MK has not.DDD's simply has a LOT of even matchups/slight advantages. With his infinate grab gone, DK does well, but the validity of banning his standing gran chain is questionable.
Well, you know, if you have a way to counter him, please, be my guest. But right now, just about EVERYONE is trying to either find a way to counter him or are saying X and X counter him because Y beat Y. >_> Obviously, the second one doesn't work because it's based on anecdotal evidence and the first one... not much results. Of course, M2K might be right, but I want to see M2K prove it as well. =/ he talks of a perfect camp by olimar or snake being so good against MK. Well... I would like consistent proof from the highest level of play and tournaments in general.except that because of out past experience with melee, we may be looking for the wrongs ways of going about brawl, and because MK is most similar to melee, people can easily pick him up, but former melee players can't as easy think of ways to counter him.
The ways to counter nado is not always consistent. Take my main, please, tell my a way sonic can consistently counter the nado. I mean, we had a thread on it in the sonic boards, it kinda died. Also, camping doesn't really work on MK. He has good approaches and he's amazing at ledge camping... so... yeah...The metagame being centered around him is good--because of it, people have found out ways to counter the nado, have experimented with ways of countering him. If you bait a SL, you can punish him from behind. His sword doesn't beat out energy projectiles. A few months ago, people were clueless about countering the nado. Now they aren't. They thought that his f-tilt was safe--now we know that if he doesn't connect with the first hit, it isn't. We know SO MUCH now that we didn't before, and because of it people are doing better against him. Because of use of pivot grabs, which were rarely used in melee, and grab release to combo, which was unused in melee, people are finding ways to punish MK. By camping--a practice unreasonably frowned on by melee players (though used extensively in other fighting game and known as "zoning"), people are doing better. This all leads to the possibility that MK is not as advantageous as people first think.
He doesn't main Olimar from what I've seen. He mains DDD and Lucario and just recently (I'm not sure just how long ago) picked up Olimar.Atomsk<--an olimar main who beats strong MKs
So now you guys are considering Olimar v MK an even matchup? What next? Next week M2K will have a little trouble with a Zelda player and Inui will lose to NL's Zelda and we'll call that one even?So until we exhaust the potential of Olimar, Yoshi, Snake, Diddy, Falco, DDD, we can't say that MK is inherently more advantageous than these chars.
Perfect camping isn't exactly an everyday occurrence either, but I guess at the highest level of play... =/ Oh, and a match man? As much as I respect your ideas, I must say, a tourney match does not sound as sufficient proof especially if even at the highest level of play, perfect camping only happens once out of a set. =/ And uh, why not just ledge camp to counter? o.O You could've done so right...? Much as you hate it considering your trying to get it banned. =/he took a tourney match off me. I was ******, then he camped perfectly and made a comeback. I was trying to prevent it, he just outplayed me. Perfect camping is extremely hard to fight, I don't think if Olimar plays perfectly that MK has the advantage, although it depends on the stage. Long stages favor Olimar, small ones MK. You didn't even see the matches that atomsk won by a lot in, you saw the closer ones. Play better olimars!
You are the one who said "Reply to my argument point by point" and had no individual points made in your wall of text. Don't blame me for your poor argument structure. Also, don't blame me for what someone else said, "you're naive" never was directed at you from me. Your one point (Slippery slope) has been shot down, you refusing to admit it doesn't make it still valid.@SalaboB: perhaps the reason you couldn't find specific points to counter is because I use correct facts, other people's (far more knowlegable than mine) ideas, and draw moderate opinions, written in a flowing, sensible paragraph style? So to counter it you'd have to say: YOUR OPINION IS WRONG, YOUR NAIVE, which is a bad argument, and nowhere near as well presented as mine. =P
No. The reason is because the other characters aren't nearly as dominant but we already have found these bad matchups for them -- how did that happen, we haven't been playing against those characters as much as MK! How is it realistic to say that the only reason we haven't found them for MK is because we "think" he's dominant? People have been trying for three months with their characters against MK to find these disadvantaguous matchups. If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he has one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK. Because others have done their work and tried, and none have been located.Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.
You specifically responded to a previous example I made of MK gaining dominance vs. others by stage CP'ing them, saying Yoshi could stage CP him to an even bigger disadvantage. That would be a disadvantaguous matchup for MK.Nobody once again has proclaimed that Yoshi was advantaged to MetaKnight. Again, we always claimed that we were neutral at best.
This is like the 6th time I said that in this thread....
I think I'm the only person who thinks it's advantageous for Yoshi, but only on specific stages.Nobody once again has proclaimed that Yoshi was advantaged to MetaKnight. Again, we always claimed that we were neutral at best.
This is like the 6th time I said that in this thread....
Okay? Brawl progressed faster than Melee because we had another extensively analyzed competitive game that we experienced to base everything on.i didnt say we have figured out everything, i said weve figured out MUCH MORE than what people like you give us credit for...
Sheik won everything in Melee at the start. Now..she wins next to nothing. Marth, Fox, and Falco win more tournaments.i believe this is a good basis to take speaking privleges away from you...
this character wins about A THIRD of all tournament held at all skill levels, and you say hes not the best character in the game?!?! WTF?!? dude, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore if you are that deluded
Jesiah wins western NY stuff with Snake.i believe that i need to make some thing clear to you...
you need to come to a complete understanding of your own region...
Atlantic North IS NOT just Jersey and MD/VA.
the region of the atlantic north consists of, MD/VA, New Jersey, New york city, Rochester, NY, Rhode Island, Conneticut, and Massachusetts. why dont you go look at all of the tournaments that happen in your entire region before you spoutin off BS about how you know everything about your region...
I've beaten Fearless in tourny 2-0 and he's the best Olimar in the south. I've beaten BlackWaltz, a top Olimar that lives in NJ, many times. I've taken a set from Atomsk's Olimar and I think he's the best one so far. I'm clearly not bad against Olimar.just cus you suck against oli, doesnt mean that he anywhere near the best character.
unless they find a way to take away the pikmin hurtboxes, make him able to carry 12 pikmin, give him a sonic spring type boost from his up b, AND make it kill at 30%, than oli is not going to be the best in the game
He won a LOT of tourmaments with Dedede and several with Marth.if M2K could go to a tourney and win just as easily with D3 or snake, than why hasnt he?
because going to a tourney to try that is risking money, which he wont do because he knows that MK is a asure thing...
BlackWaltz took 3rd at a big NY weekly event, beating NinjaLink and Atomsk in the process. I put him in losers early and he still beasted everyone until he lost to Snakeee, BARELY.If oli is that good, get me some results from some tourneys and put him in top tier...
QFTBentoBox said:You claimed that he had lost all his bearings because MK dominates and therefore is the best character. That's not how it works. M2K could dominate with Snake and what would happen then? The same domino effect, everybody acting like tools going on and maining that exact same character, and you get where I'm going with this.
No, I was using that statement to counter your statement that Snake is impossible to win against MetaKnight due to the stage counterpicks. I wasn't trying to push Yoshi into an advantage at all, although prehaps the way I typed it probably was that way.You specifically responded to a previous example I made of MK gaining dominance vs. others by stage CP'ing them, saying Yoshi could stage CP him to an even bigger disadvantage. That would be a disadvantaguous matchup for MK.
Until you did that I'd happily gone with your previous statements that Yoshi was neutral. Would you prefer I ignore everyone who disagrees with my arguments and makes good points of their own?
Yeah, on his counterpicks. But overall, It's neutral.I think I'm the only person who thinks it's advantageous for Yoshi, but only on specific stages.
It wasn't "impossible to win" ever. It was "You have a free advantage just by playing MK." I was using Snake because he was MK's worst matchup according to M2K, at a 55:45 disadvantage for MK on neutrals. The idea is everyone else you do better than that, so if you have an advantage against your worst matchup you've got a free advantage in every matchup.No, I was using that statement to counter your statement that Snake is impossible to win against MetaKnight due to the stage counterpicks. I wasn't trying to push Yoshi into an advantage at all, although prehaps the way I typed it probably was that way.
I can't utilize the grab release well on the counter pick stages. Once I release him I miss with Fair and Uair...a lot.Yeah, on his counterpicks. But overall, It's neutral.
I really wish though that people would at least try out my Anti-MetaKnight Counterpick Setup into consideration. I swear it will work....
Uh.... I don't think you know his Counterpick stages.... Plus you cant Release to Uair him in the first place.I can't utilize the grab release well on the counter pick stages. Once I release him I miss with Fair and Uair...a lot.
I'm decent with Yoshi, but not great.
Eh... Not really. Pride doesn't really want to be considered the best Yoshi, but since he is really one of the few that use him completive, most people consider him. From what I heard he's in a huge slump and has been doing pretty poorly in the past few months.Yoshi loses to MK. dmbrandon and I always beat PRiDE with MK and I've seen Forte threestock him. Isn't PRiDE considered one of the best Yoshi players?
I only disagree with what you think his worst matchups are. Neither Snake or Falco are that of a major disadvantage against him because of the 0-Death Setup's/Chaingrabs he has on them. Falco was one of his worst though, but we always did decently against Snake before the setup'sI have a problem with the "if a player plays X character perfectly, he/she beats out MK" argument. Shouldn't any player whom plays their character perfectly have a strong advantage?
Also, say we can all agree that Yoshi and Snake have advantageous matchups against Metaknight. Why can't people see that these characters have numerous disadvantages against several characters. Example: Yoshi does pretty poorly against Marth, Snake and Falco to name a few. Snake does very poorly against R.O.B., D3 and Pikachu.
In addition, Snake does poorly against R.O.B. on JungleJapes, poorly against D3 on green greens (and other walled stages) etc. Yoshi does poorly against falco on his best stage (Final D), against snake at Brinstar or Marth on Battlefield or corneria.
As a Metaknight player, I could care less if a yoshi had a 6:4 or even matchup with my character. I would still rather use MK throughout a whole tournament than be worried about a yoshi. Same goes for Snake or possibly Diddy Kong.
You should agree because those 0-death setups do NOT work. In addition, chaingrabs do less than your average throw due to your opponent being capable of mashing out of the grab. Each grab release should do 0-2% depending on how fast the player mashes.I only disagree with what you think his worst matchups are. Neither Snake or Falco are that of a major disadvantage against him because of the 0-Death Setup's/Chaingrabs he has on them. Falco was one of his worst though, but we always did decently against Snake before the setup's
Right because organized paragraphs leads to poor argument structure. Taking other people's facts and opinions and responding to them is poor structure. Ever have to write ANALYTICAL papers rather than persuasive ones? You know, papers where you're given a topic, you go out, find sources, and then add your own opinion by bouncing off of other peoples critiques/ facts you find while researching? If so, please explain how better to actually construct an argument.You are the one who said "Reply to my argument point by point" and had no individual points made in your wall of text. Don't blame me for your poor argument structure. Also, don't blame me for what someone else said, "you're naive" never was directed at you from me. Your one point (Slippery slope) has been shot down, you refusing to admit it doesn't make it still valid.
The first point you bring up is that other characters aren't nearly as dominant, and that we've found characters that have advantages over them. While this is true currently, let us again realize that it is still very early, even though we have melee's knowledge.No. The reason is because the other characters aren't nearly as dominant but we already have found these bad matchups for them -- how did that happen, we haven't been playing against those characters as much as MK![1] How is it realistic to say that the only reason we haven't found them for MK is because we "think" he's dominant?[2] People have been trying for three months with their characters against MK to find these disadvantaguous matchups. If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he has one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK. Because others have done their work and tried, and none have been located.
They do work though, and Yoshi's Chaingrab isn't for Damage, but rather positioning, setups, and control.You should agree because those 0-death setups do NOT work. In addition, chaingrabs do less than your average throw due to your opponent being capable of mashing out of the grab. Each grab release should do 0-2% depending on how fast the player mashes.
Also, don't take my "these are Yoshi's WORST matchups" to heart, I was simply trying to make a point being that these "counter mk characters" have their own problems to deal with other than metaknight. Ya dig?
Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?They do work though, and Yoshi's Chaingrab isn't for Damage, but rather positioning, setups, and control.
Yeah... I'm pretty defencive.
CG into offstage Fair spike actually does register and is inescapable, M2K even said so himself in one of his posts. It requires a certain positioning; Yoshi has to run off stage, he can't be too too close to the edge.Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?
I already knew CG to Usmash doesn't work, I never said that.... and Release to Pivot Grab? What the ****?Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?
We're talking about Falco, not MetaKnight.... I thinkCG into offstage Fair spike actually does register and is inescapable, M2K even said so himself in one of his posts. It requires a certain positioning; Yoshi has to run off stage, he can't be too too close to the edge.
He lost to us...since the day we met him in March. >_>;Eh... Not really. Pride doesn't really want to be considered the best Yoshi, but since he is really one of the few that use him completive, most people consider him. From what I heard he's in a huge slump and has been doing pretty poorly in the past few months.
I loved this comparison because Lord Knight, the best V. Ahika in the nation, is one of my best friends. :DA great example of this would be to look at the difference in playstyles between Vermillion Ahika and Choas in MeltyBlood. She is quick, has nasty combos, and can chain together blockstrings that are remarkably hard to find weaknesses in. Chaos is slower, but makes up for this by having excellent ground control by means of his chaos deer and snake. Because he can use these to control the ground, and then can exert his own, less efficient personal pressure on Ahika.
What they lead to is a poor argument structure for challenging someone to take apart your points for, when the points blend between one and the other in the middle of one paragraph. It's because of this medium -- you're making a post on a forum, for someone else to respond to the bits of, and saying to address it point by point. If you're going to say things like that, you should have your points arranged in a manner that they can be addressed individually. I don't really care either way how you choose to do it, but what I'm saying is that you shouldn't say "Do it point by point" if you haven't presented them point by point to be replied to.Right because organized paragraphs leads to poor argument structure. Taking other people's facts and opinions and responding to them is poor structure. Ever have to write ANALYTICAL papers rather than persuasive ones? You know, papers where you're given a topic, you go out, find sources, and then add your own opinion by bouncing off of other peoples critiques/ facts you find while researching? If so, please explain how better to actually construct an argument.
"If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he doesn't have one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK."Also, could you reword the underlined section of the bolded line? I can't understand what you're saying.
Ahhh! I recall what you are referring to. Bwett was trying to set up that "perfect positioning" one day to explain to me how it works. His inability to do it on the spot, over many attempts, made me believe that doing the setup is highly situational and impractical. I know what you are referring to now. I can only hope you can maintain that spacing against a highly skilled metaknight player.snip
But Yoshi's metagame didn't start to developed until I think May or June, If I remember..... I can't really comment on your matches on him because I haven't seen any...He lost to us...since the day we met him in March. >_>;
I've played him frequently starting then all the way up until...now.But Yoshi's metagame didn't start to developed until I think May or June, If I remember..... I can't really comment on your matches on him because I haven't seen any...
I was too used to Yuna -- he also claimed to read everything, but he skimmed and replied to what he wanted me to be saying that I got extremely careless and am certain I've been dropping occasionally "not's" elsewhere that I never got called on.@SalaboB: of course I read what you said...if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to do this debate thing properly Thanks for clearing that up, though. I hope my thought was a good one, even if it doesn't end up balencing.
Also, if you haven't got this already, my position is that UNTIL WE EXHAUST the other possibilities, he shouldn't be banned.