The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Tenki]

slippery slope theory

Why do my posts keep on being ignored >_>

It's the Mickey Mouse.


thanks, it makes more sense now lol. had no idea what SS stood for ;l

 

[St. Viers]

Except all those characters already have known counters beyond 55:45 against them, and can be stage counterpicked to make those disadvantages worse. The SS theory fails.

Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.

re: ad hominem attacks: It is a FACT, with evidence earlier this thread, that OS lost to 2 MKs in a tournie, and thus began his campaign. He said, and one of his friends said it. So that in itself is not an attack. And it also isn't saying that their point isn't valid--I'm simply pointing out that the pro-ban movement was started because of OS channelling and directing other players, many of whom aren't anywhere near a level where they could compete viably, and thus can't really comment, frustration.

Let's look at respected smashers on each side, including those that are voicing their opinions:

Pro-Ban:
LeeHarris<--the MK rags to riches player, and strong MK.
OS.<--self admitted personal reasons behind supporting ban
--noticeably lacking on this list is Sethalon, who is LeeHarris's anti-MK poster boy, who lost to LH's inexperienced MK with falcom who is considered even. Why hasn't he said he thinks the matchup is completely MK's favor.

Anti-Ban:
M2K<--results-wise the best brawl player. Has proven his ability to win with DDD against MKs.
Inui<--placed well before using MK, and has told us of possible chars to pick against MK
Atomsk<--an olimar main who beats strong MKs
Snakee<--ZSS player, who believes the matchup isn't hopeless does well against strong MKs
Ninja_Link<--Diddy player that beats strong MKs
AlphaZealot<--Diddy player who believes in DdK's potential.



So until we exhaust the potential of Olimar, Yoshi, Snake, Diddy, Falco, DDD, we can't say that MK is inherently more advantageous than these chars.

 

[Tenki]

He appeared once.

Even the tornado isn't 100%...falco can double jump backwards and then sweetspot the ledge with phantasm if he sees the 'nado coming. And then its a ledge hop overB to punish tornado landing -> airdodge baitin' time.

'Course, if the MK thinks falco will avoid the tornado, he can just wait and edgehog/powershield -> grab (since the falco will be relatively close after landing, b/c jumping back.)

Nothing about his opinion on the ban though. xD

 

[St. Viers]

@SalaboB: perhaps the reason you couldn't find specific points to counter is because I use correct facts, other people's (far more knowlegable than mine) ideas, and draw moderate opinions, written in a flowing, sensible paragraph style? So to counter it you'd have to say: YOUR OPINION IS WRONG, YOUR NAIVE, which is a bad argument, and nowhere near as well presented as mine. =P

@Tenki: that makes 2 of us who have noticed...only several thousand more need to ^_^ It's like the McCain/Palin method, except much better executed than Palin and McCain have been doing.

 

[Sharky]

@Tenki: that makes 2 of us who have noticed...only several thousand more need to ^_^ It's like the McCain/Palin method, except much better executed than Palin and McCain have been doing.

quote for freakin truth, man. >__>

 

[Vyse]

Diddy Vs. Metaknight.
Help me Prove/Debunk the level of equity in this matchup.
http://www.smashboards.com./showthread.php?t=201953

 

[Espy Rose]

Uh... he also doesn't like being recorded mostly because he gets nervous and doesn't play very well under those conditions. I know where he's coming from 'cause I've played like **** sometimes whenever I was being recorded out of nervousness.

lol

10massivejohns.

 

[Praxis]

Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.

re: ad hominem attacks: It is a FACT, with evidence earlier this thread, that OS lost to 2 MKs in a tournie, and thus began his campaign. He said, and one of his friends said it. So that in itself is not an attack. And it also isn't saying that their point isn't valid--I'm simply pointing out that the pro-ban movement was started because of OS channelling and directing other players, many of whom aren't anywhere near a level where they could compete viably, and thus can't really comment, frustration.

Let's look at respected smashers on each side, including those that are voicing their opinions:

Pro-Ban:
LeeHarris<--the MK rags to riches player, and strong MK.
OS.<--self admitted personal reasons behind supporting ban
--noticeably lacking on this list is Sethalon, who is LeeHarris's anti-MK poster boy, who lost to LH's inexperienced MK with falcom who is considered even. Why hasn't he said he thinks the matchup is completely MK's favor.

Anti-Ban:
M2K<--results-wise the best brawl player. Has proven his ability to win with DDD against MKs.
Inui<--placed well before using MK, and has told us of possible chars to pick against MK
Atomsk<--an olimar main who beats strong MKs
Snakee<--ZSS player, who believes the matchup isn't hopeless does well against strong MKs
Ninja_Link<--Diddy player that beats strong MKs
AlphaZealot<--Diddy player who believes in DdK's potential.



So until we exhaust the potential of Olimar, Yoshi, Snake, Diddy, Falco, DDD, we can't say that MK is inherently more advantageous than these chars.

I find it amusing that you list so many more Anti-ban people. One would think you're trying to emphasize the known players on one side.

Why don't you include Gimpyfish, Edrees, Chillin, MikeHAZE, etc? Even if you only want those voicing their opinion publically, Edrees rides the pack on AiB.

 

[aeghrur]

DDD's simply has a LOT of even matchups/slight advantages. With his infinate grab gone, DK does well, but the validity of banning his standing gran chain is questionable.

He has disadvantages and even match ups, as of the moment and well, for the last 500 pages, MK has not.

[/quote]Except that he may have many more even matchups than people think, as evidenced by Ninja_Link, Snakee, Atomsk, and a slew of NA players, a region that has the best MKs.[/quote]

Except... the majority of tournaments are still dominated by MK. Also, didn't Ninja_link lose to Inui? And didn't Atomsk too? Well, both are anecdotal evidence in some form so... =/

except that because of out past experience with melee, we may be looking for the wrongs ways of going about brawl, and because MK is most similar to melee, people can easily pick him up, but former melee players can't as easy think of ways to counter him.

Well, you know, if you have a way to counter him, please, be my guest. But right now, just about EVERYONE is trying to either find a way to counter him or are saying X and X counter him because Y beat Y. >_> Obviously, the second one doesn't work because it's based on anecdotal evidence and the first one... not much results. Of course, M2K might be right, but I want to see M2K prove it as well. =/ he talks of a perfect camp by olimar or snake being so good against MK. Well... I would like consistent proof from the highest level of play and tournaments in general.

The metagame being centered around him is good--because of it, people have found out ways to counter the nado, have experimented with ways of countering him. If you bait a SL, you can punish him from behind. His sword doesn't beat out energy projectiles. A few months ago, people were clueless about countering the nado. Now they aren't. They thought that his f-tilt was safe--now we know that if he doesn't connect with the first hit, it isn't. We know SO MUCH now that we didn't before, and because of it people are doing better against him. Because of use of pivot grabs, which were rarely used in melee, and grab release to combo, which was unused in melee, people are finding ways to punish MK. By camping--a practice unreasonably frowned on by melee players (though used extensively in other fighting game and known as "zoning"), people are doing better. This all leads to the possibility that MK is not as advantageous as people first think.

The ways to counter nado is not always consistent. Take my main, please, tell my a way sonic can consistently counter the nado. I mean, we had a thread on it in the sonic boards, it kinda died. Also, camping doesn't really work on MK. He has good approaches and he's amazing at ledge camping... so... yeah...

[/quote]A good analogy is going from playing go to playing "squares." Both use a board and grid, and use multicolor stones. You can only play one stone per move, alternate moves, and can't move stones in both games. Both games strongly require you to percieve good shapes, and seeing patterns that lead to those shapes helps you win. However, "squares is a MUCH simpler game," in terms of brainpower/thinking ahead.

But even though my brother is around 10Kyuu higher than me in go, probably more...there are some things he automatically discounts as moves in "squares," solely because of the similarity between the two different games[1]

[1] For example, in go, you can not play in a square that is surrounded on all four interesction points, and thus playing in the center of 3 existing stones is comitting suicide, or self atari. In squares, no such rule exists, and in fact sometimes by playing things in such a place will win you the game.[/quote]

For our stones, it seems our board is slowly filling up more and more with less and less people as other mains. It's like, he's getting 2 moves per turn while you only get 1. Soon, we have to cut him off and give him zero so you can catch up. Eh, more or less. Good analogy though.


Mkay. =/[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[DanGR]

Atomsk<--an olimar main who beats strong MKs

He doesn't main Olimar from what I've seen. He mains DDD and Lucario and just recently (I'm not sure just how long ago) picked up Olimar.

So until we exhaust the potential of Olimar, Yoshi, Snake, Diddy, Falco, DDD, we can't say that MK is inherently more advantageous than these chars.

So now you guys are considering Olimar v MK an even matchup? What next? Next week M2K will have a little trouble with a Zelda player and Inui will lose to NL's Zelda and we'll call that one even?

Atomsk says Olimar beats MK simply because he beat Inui's MK with him. This is a NEW MK user that knew NOTHING about the MK v Olimar matchup, a matchup that IS disadvantaged for MK until the MK player learns how to deal with Olimar's camping/range game and learns how to properly juggle, shield pressure, and gimp Olimar.

Inui played the matchup wrong. I can safely say, after studying those videos, (assuming they were the only matches they played together) that Inui's MK playstyle against Olimar (that's relatively new) is countered by the general Olimar playstyle against MK that Atomsk used.
-Inui used empty dairs a LOT- something MK should use from above Olimar very sparingly.
-He also LOVES to use ground approaches- another BIG no-no.

Atomsk won because he's either better with Olimar than Inui is with MK or he just knows the matchup better than Inui did. Snakeeeeeeeeeeeeeee beats MKs all the time. It doesn't make the matchup advantaged for ZSS does it? Why isn't there debate about that one?
_______________
I wasn't there though, and if someone else was and would like to clear anything up or explain something that I missed, that'd be great. If he managed to beat Plank, M2K, Dojo or someone else that's more experienced, then that'd be much different.

 

[Mew2King]

he took a tourney match off me. I was ******, then he camped perfectly and made a comeback. I was trying to prevent it, he just outplayed me. Perfect camping is extremely hard to fight, I don't think if Olimar plays perfectly that MK has the advantage, although it depends on the stage. Long stages favor Olimar, small ones MK. You didn't even see the matches that atomsk won by a lot in, you saw the closer ones. Play better olimars!

 

[DanGR]

:O

edit: I'd like to see those matches, or at least an example of some perfect camping.

 

[M@v]

All I know about atomsk is I got to play him once a couple months back. He wrecked me with his DDD.

Also where is the poll?

 

[aeghrur]

he took a tourney match off me. I was ******, then he camped perfectly and made a comeback. I was trying to prevent it, he just outplayed me. Perfect camping is extremely hard to fight, I don't think if Olimar plays perfectly that MK has the advantage, although it depends on the stage. Long stages favor Olimar, small ones MK. You didn't even see the matches that atomsk won by a lot in, you saw the closer ones. Play better olimars!

Perfect camping isn't exactly an everyday occurrence either, but I guess at the highest level of play... =/ Oh, and a match man? As much as I respect your ideas, I must say, a tourney match does not sound as sufficient proof especially if even at the highest level of play, perfect camping only happens once out of a set. =/ And uh, why not just ledge camp to counter? o.O You could've done so right...? Much as you hate it considering your trying to get it banned. =/

 

[salaboB]

@SalaboB: perhaps the reason you couldn't find specific points to counter is because I use correct facts, other people's (far more knowlegable than mine) ideas, and draw moderate opinions, written in a flowing, sensible paragraph style? So to counter it you'd have to say: YOUR OPINION IS WRONG, YOUR NAIVE, which is a bad argument, and nowhere near as well presented as mine. =P

You are the one who said "Reply to my argument point by point" and had no individual points made in your wall of text. Don't blame me for your poor argument structure. Also, don't blame me for what someone else said, "you're naive" never was directed at you from me. Your one point (Slippery slope) has been shot down, you refusing to admit it doesn't make it still valid.

Which may end up being the case for MK, as soon as people realize he isn't as advantageous as people think.

No. The reason is because the other characters aren't nearly as dominant but we already have found these bad matchups for them -- how did that happen, we haven't been playing against those characters as much as MK! How is it realistic to say that the only reason we haven't found them for MK is because we "think" he's dominant? People have been trying for three months with their characters against MK to find these disadvantaguous matchups. If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he has one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK. Because others have done their work and tried, and none have been located.

Even M2K uses pretty careful wording when he's talking about the matchups vs. MK, and things like "A perfect camping Olimar goes even" Perfect camping goes even. Do you understand how hard that is? It means you're already one of the top players in the country or you don't get an even matchup as Olimar vs MK. From what we've seen in tourney results, that's how both his possibly disadvantaged (Snake and Yoshi) matchups are as well (Only top players can possibly get them to that point) and most if not all of his neutrals end up doing it too. If you are equally skilled, unless you are at the level where you can hope to compete with M2K, you do not get a 50:50 matchup vs. MK the way matchups are theorized. It requires that much ability to pull it off, and a matchup that's 50:50 for only 5 people in the nation is not enough to say MK is not worth banning for.

You must try harder than "Maybe something will be found to bring MK down" if you want to pretend your anti-ban argument is a possibility. Your slippery slope failed the instant you accepted that we already know counters to every character except MK, all you have left is "Maybe a matchup disadvantage will be found" and that one is extremely wobbly too (As I just covered). There's no evidence provided that such a thing will materialize, we've been looking for quite a while now and everything found just ends up being able to be handled by MK.

 

[Mmac]

Nobody once again has proclaimed that Yoshi was advantaged to MetaKnight. Again, we always claimed that we were neutral at best.

This is like the 6th time I said that in this thread....

 

[salaboB]

Nobody once again has proclaimed that Yoshi was advantaged to MetaKnight. Again, we always claimed that we were neutral at best.

This is like the 6th time I said that in this thread....

You specifically responded to a previous example I made of MK gaining dominance vs. others by stage CP'ing them, saying Yoshi could stage CP him to an even bigger disadvantage. That would be a disadvantaguous matchup for MK.

Until you did that I'd happily gone with your previous statements that Yoshi was neutral. Would you prefer I ignore everyone who disagrees with my arguments and makes good points of their own?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nobody once again has proclaimed that Yoshi was advantaged to MetaKnight. Again, we always claimed that we were neutral at best.

This is like the 6th time I said that in this thread....

I think I'm the only person who thinks it's advantageous for Yoshi, but only on specific stages.

 

[Inui]

i didnt say we have figured out everything, i said weve figured out MUCH MORE than what people like you give us credit for...

Okay? Brawl progressed faster than Melee because we had another extensively analyzed competitive game that we experienced to base everything on.

That doesn't mean we can say we know such things like "who's the best character" this early in the game's life.

i believe this is a good basis to take speaking privleges away from you...
this character wins about A THIRD of all tournament held at all skill levels, and you say hes not the best character in the game?!?! WTF?!? dude, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore if you are that deluded

Sheik won everything in Melee at the start. Now..she wins next to nothing. Marth, Fox, and Falco win more tournaments.

You're deluded if you think Meta Knight is definitely the best character with no competition.

i believe that i need to make some thing clear to you...
you need to come to a complete understanding of your own region...
Atlantic North IS NOT just Jersey and MD/VA.
the region of the atlantic north consists of, MD/VA, New Jersey, New york city, Rochester, NY, Rhode Island, Conneticut, and Massachusetts. why dont you go look at all of the tournaments that happen in your entire region before you spoutin off BS about how you know everything about your region...

Jesiah wins western NY stuff with Snake.

Bum's DK wins in NYC.

NJ has Mew2King and teh_spamerer, so pardon us for letting MK win, but Atomsk wins everything they're not at with Dedede, Lucario, and Olimar.

MD/VA is usually won by Azen's Lucario or ChuDat's Kirby. Forte occassionally wins with MK and Chillin occassionally wins with Snake and Falco.

Connecticut is won by Cort's Snake.

Care to show me this MK dominance in Atlantic North???

just cus you suck against oli, doesnt mean that he anywhere near the best character.

unless they find a way to take away the pikmin hurtboxes, make him able to carry 12 pikmin, give him a sonic spring type boost from his up b, AND make it kill at 30%, than oli is not going to be the best in the game

I've beaten Fearless in tourny 2-0 and he's the best Olimar in the south. I've beaten BlackWaltz, a top Olimar that lives in NJ, many times. I've taken a set from Atomsk's Olimar and I think he's the best one so far. I'm clearly not bad against Olimar.

Olimar is already nearly unapproachable and extremely hard to camp. That's amazing. He doesn't need other stuff.

if M2K could go to a tourney and win just as easily with D3 or snake, than why hasnt he?
because going to a tourney to try that is risking money, which he wont do because he knows that MK is a asure thing...

He won a LOT of tourmaments with Dedede and several with Marth.

If oli is that good, get me some results from some tourneys and put him in top tier...

BlackWaltz took 3rd at a big NY weekly event, beating NinjaLink and Atomsk in the process. I put him in losers early and he still beasted everyone until he lost to Snakeee, BARELY.

Atomsk recently won a tournament using Olimar a lot. Yes!, Snakeee, Shadow, dmbrandon, Pierce7d, and myself were all there.

You claimed that he had lost all his bearings because MK dominates and therefore is the best character. That's not how it works. M2K could dominate with Snake and what would happen then? The same domino effect, everybody acting like tools going on and maining that exact same character, and you get where I'm going with this.

QFT

I wish Mew2King would just win everything with Dedede and Snake to make everyone shut up LOL.

 

[Mmac]

You specifically responded to a previous example I made of MK gaining dominance vs. others by stage CP'ing them, saying Yoshi could stage CP him to an even bigger disadvantage. That would be a disadvantaguous matchup for MK.

Until you did that I'd happily gone with your previous statements that Yoshi was neutral. Would you prefer I ignore everyone who disagrees with my arguments and makes good points of their own?

No, I was using that statement to counter your statement that Snake is impossible to win against MetaKnight due to the stage counterpicks. I wasn't trying to push Yoshi into an advantage at all, although prehaps the way I typed it probably was that way.

I think I'm the only person who thinks it's advantageous for Yoshi, but only on specific stages.

Yeah, on his counterpicks. But overall, It's neutral.


I really wish though that people would at least try out my Anti-MetaKnight Counterpick Setup into consideration. I swear it will work....

 

[salaboB]

No, I was using that statement to counter your statement that Snake is impossible to win against MetaKnight due to the stage counterpicks. I wasn't trying to push Yoshi into an advantage at all, although prehaps the way I typed it probably was that way.

It wasn't "impossible to win" ever. It was "You have a free advantage just by playing MK." I was using Snake because he was MK's worst matchup according to M2K, at a 55:45 disadvantage for MK on neutrals. The idea is everyone else you do better than that, so if you have an advantage against your worst matchup you've got a free advantage in every matchup.

If Yoshi can be scarier than Snake via the counterpicking, then he becomes MK's worst tournament matchup and must have an advantaged overall match. He can't be both neutral and able to out-CP MK for a bigger advantage than MK can get against him (ie, advantaged).

I can go either way with it, really. I tend to err on the side of giving MK the least favorable (but still realistic) matchups people have presented, though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, on his counterpicks. But overall, It's neutral.


I really wish though that people would at least try out my Anti-MetaKnight Counterpick Setup into consideration. I swear it will work....

I can't utilize the grab release well on the counter pick stages. Once I release him I miss with Fair and Uair...a lot.

I'm decent with Yoshi, but not great.

 

[Inui]

Yoshi loses to MK. dmbrandon and I always beat PRiDE with MK and I've seen Forte threestock him. Isn't PRiDE considered one of the best Yoshi players?

 

[Daimonster]

I have a problem with the "if a player plays X character perfectly, he/she beats out MK" argument. Shouldn't any player whom plays their character perfectly have a strong advantage?

Also, say we can all agree that Yoshi and Snake have advantageous matchups against Metaknight. Why can't people see that these characters have numerous disadvantages against several characters. Example: Yoshi does pretty poorly against Marth, Snake and Falco to name a few. Snake does very poorly against R.O.B., D3 and Pikachu.

In addition, Snake does poorly against R.O.B. on JungleJapes, poorly against D3 on green greens (and other walled stages) etc. Yoshi does poorly against falco on his best stage (Final D), against snake at Brinstar or Marth on Battlefield or corneria.

As a Metaknight player, I could care less if a yoshi had a 6:4 or even matchup with my character. I would still rather use MK throughout a whole tournament than be worried about a yoshi. Same goes for Snake or possibly Diddy Kong.

 

[Little England]

Check it out. Possible temporary solution.

http://nintendohub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=773084#post773084

 

[Mmac]

I can't utilize the grab release well on the counter pick stages. Once I release him I miss with Fair and Uair...a lot.

I'm decent with Yoshi, but not great.

Uh.... I don't think you know his Counterpick stages.... Plus you cant Release to Uair him in the first place.

Yoshi loses to MK. dmbrandon and I always beat PRiDE with MK and I've seen Forte threestock him. Isn't PRiDE considered one of the best Yoshi players?

Eh... Not really. Pride doesn't really want to be considered the best Yoshi, but since he is really one of the few that use him completive, most people consider him. From what I heard he's in a huge slump and has been doing pretty poorly in the past few months.

I have a problem with the "if a player plays X character perfectly, he/she beats out MK" argument. Shouldn't any player whom plays their character perfectly have a strong advantage?

Also, say we can all agree that Yoshi and Snake have advantageous matchups against Metaknight. Why can't people see that these characters have numerous disadvantages against several characters. Example: Yoshi does pretty poorly against Marth, Snake and Falco to name a few. Snake does very poorly against R.O.B., D3 and Pikachu.

In addition, Snake does poorly against R.O.B. on JungleJapes, poorly against D3 on green greens (and other walled stages) etc. Yoshi does poorly against falco on his best stage (Final D), against snake at Brinstar or Marth on Battlefield or corneria.

As a Metaknight player, I could care less if a yoshi had a 6:4 or even matchup with my character. I would still rather use MK throughout a whole tournament than be worried about a yoshi. Same goes for Snake or possibly Diddy Kong.

I only disagree with what you think his worst matchups are. Neither Snake or Falco are that of a major disadvantage against him because of the 0-Death Setup's/Chaingrabs he has on them. Falco was one of his worst though, but we always did decently against Snake before the setup's

 

[Daimonster]

I only disagree with what you think his worst matchups are. Neither Snake or Falco are that of a major disadvantage against him because of the 0-Death Setup's/Chaingrabs he has on them. Falco was one of his worst though, but we always did decently against Snake before the setup's

You should agree because those 0-death setups do NOT work. In addition, chaingrabs do less than your average throw due to your opponent being capable of mashing out of the grab. Each grab release should do 0-2% depending on how fast the player mashes.

Also, don't take my "these are Yoshi's WORST matchups" to heart, I was simply trying to make a point being that these "counter mk characters" have their own problems to deal with other than metaknight. Ya dig?

 

[St. Viers]

You are the one who said "Reply to my argument point by point" and had no individual points made in your wall of text. Don't blame me for your poor argument structure. Also, don't blame me for what someone else said, "you're naive" never was directed at you from me. Your one point (Slippery slope) has been shot down, you refusing to admit it doesn't make it still valid.

Right because organized paragraphs leads to poor argument structure. Taking other people's facts and opinions and responding to them is poor structure. Ever have to write ANALYTICAL papers rather than persuasive ones? You know, papers where you're given a topic, you go out, find sources, and then add your own opinion by bouncing off of other peoples critiques/ facts you find while researching? If so, please explain how better to actually construct an argument.

Ever in a real debate? Not a debate on a forum, but a structured dialogue between two opposing sides? Model UN? How do you think they form their arguments?

By just using bullet points? By using unsupported statements? This is a debate, not an AIM conversation. If you give your opinion, unless you are a source, you have to back it up.

--also, generally when people post things w/ a =P after them, you shouldn't get too worked up...
Furthermore, I never said that you were the originator of the "YOU ARE NAIVE;" it was an example of poor presentation of a point. You seem to think that I'm being antagonistic or something, which simply looks stupid unless your reaction turns out to be justified. I'm simply debating in this for the thrills...
...

No. The reason is because the other characters aren't nearly as dominant but we already have found these bad matchups for them -- how did that happen, we haven't been playing against those characters as much as MK![1] How is it realistic to say that the only reason we haven't found them for MK is because we "think" he's dominant?[2] People have been trying for three months with their characters against MK to find these disadvantaguous matchups. If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he has one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK. Because others have done their work and tried, and none have been located.

The first point you bring up is that other characters aren't nearly as dominant, and that we've found characters that have advantages over them. While this is true currently, let us again realize that it is still very early, even though we have melee's knowledge.

Let us look at jigglypuff, peach, and ice climbers from melee for a moment. Although these character are all very good, their potential wasn't unlocked until much later in melee than the more obviously good characters like marth and sheik. It wasn't until mango started ripping people apart that people even considered jigglypuff good, before him people like king were just assumed to be like Gimpyfish--extremely talented with an otherwise lackluster character. Peach's float was known forever, but the full uses of it weren't discovered until much later, and it wasn't until peach users overcame the urge to spam their "best move", d-smash, that her potential was realized. Ice Climbers weren't considered good until one player, Chu Dat, showed their true potential. After that, his use picked up, as did his tier ranking. You then had people like wobbles further revolutionize IC metagame.

In all of these cases, the characters had a different playstyle than people could translate from SSB. How is it unreasonable to assume that as we fully realize the ways brawl differs from melee, more discoveries that improve characters' metagames won't appear. I'll say this again: one of the reasons MK is so popular, and doing so well, is because you can play him using a melee mindset, and he can't be countered directly by any other character that tries to play brawl like melee. Which leads to the second point of your argument, that my claim that people are playing brawl wrong is an insult, and wrong.

You have me saying that the only reason we haven't found counters for MK is because we're thinking MK is dominant. In reality, what I said is that because of our previous melee experience, MK seems the best, as he is the only character that can be played as if brawl was melee. When other people try to counter him in kind, he walks all over them, because this is NOT melee, and his laglessness beats out other characters laggier approaches.

If you look at the characters that seem the best choices to use against him--Snake, Diddy, and Olimar, you'll notice something about them. All three of them are able to exert a type of pressure that wasn't really present in melee. In melee, you pressured someone up front and directly, like one does w/ metaknight in brawl. You poked at them with safe lagless attacks, and when they slip up you punish them, combo them to the edge, and gimp them. Even characters with ranged attacks followed the same principal...you used them to apply direct pressure. But Olimar's pikmin, snakes explosives, and Diddy's bananas exert a pressure in the form of stage control. They limit one's movements not only through their own poking at the opponent's defenses, but also forcing them into disadvantageous positions, and although being unable to exert as much pressure as MK does on 1 front, they exert their pressure in two fronts.

A great example of this would be to look at the difference in playstyles between Vermillion Ahika and Choas in MeltyBlood. She is quick, has nasty combos, and can chain together blockstrings that are remarkably hard to find weaknesses in. Chaos is slower, but makes up for this by having excellent ground control by means of his chaos deer and snake. Because he can use these to control the ground, and then can exert his own, less efficient personal pressure on Ahika.

In brawl we've figured out (thanks to melee) how to use one's personal pressure game (Chaos also has a traditional projectile, used simply to apply direct pressure from far away and to maintain proper spacing), yet the whole indirect pressure is something we haven't had much experience with before, and thus some character's metagames haven't developed as quickly as MK's very direct game.

Also, could you reword the underlined section of the bolded line? I can't understand what you're saying.

 

[The_Dyne]

Hot ****, you leave for a few weeks, and there's a 500+ page thread about the possible banning of MK...

 

[Mmac]

You should agree because those 0-death setups do NOT work. In addition, chaingrabs do less than your average throw due to your opponent being capable of mashing out of the grab. Each grab release should do 0-2% depending on how fast the player mashes.

They do work though, and Yoshi's Chaingrab isn't for Damage, but rather positioning, setups, and control.

Also, don't take my "these are Yoshi's WORST matchups" to heart, I was simply trying to make a point being that these "counter mk characters" have their own problems to deal with other than metaknight. Ya dig?

Yeah... I'm pretty defencive.

 

[Daimonster]

They do work though, and Yoshi's Chaingrab isn't for Damage, but rather positioning, setups, and control.

Yeah... I'm pretty defencive.

Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?

 

[DMG]

Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?

CG into offstage Fair spike actually does register and is inescapable, M2K even said so himself in one of his posts. It requires a certain positioning; Yoshi has to run off stage, he can't be too too close to the edge.

 

[Mmac]

Bwett and I worked on those 0-death setups. They do NOT work. Chaingrab into u.smash can be shielded. Chaingrab into pivot grab can be rolled out of. Chaingrab off the stage to f.air can be air dodged. Care to take this discussion further?

I already knew CG to Usmash doesn't work, I never said that.... and Release to Pivot Grab? What the ****?

As for the Fair spike, it does work. I tested it with real people (I ALWAYS test my findings with actual people first before I post them) and Falco shouldn't airdodge in time if Yoshi leaves and Fair's as soon as physically possible.

Besides he's still screwed because he can easily edgehog his UpB if he does Airdodges it

CG into offstage Fair spike actually does register and is inescapable, M2K even said so himself in one of his posts. It requires a certain positioning; Yoshi has to run off stage, he can't be too too close to the edge.

We're talking about Falco, not MetaKnight.... I think

 

[Inui]

Eh... Not really. Pride doesn't really want to be considered the best Yoshi, but since he is really one of the few that use him completive, most people consider him. From what I heard he's in a huge slump and has been doing pretty poorly in the past few months.

He lost to us...since the day we met him in March. >_>;

A great example of this would be to look at the difference in playstyles between Vermillion Ahika and Choas in MeltyBlood. She is quick, has nasty combos, and can chain together blockstrings that are remarkably hard to find weaknesses in. Chaos is slower, but makes up for this by having excellent ground control by means of his chaos deer and snake. Because he can use these to control the ground, and then can exert his own, less efficient personal pressure on Ahika.

I loved this comparison because Lord Knight, the best V. Ahika in the nation, is one of my best friends. :D

 

[salaboB]

Right because organized paragraphs leads to poor argument structure. Taking other people's facts and opinions and responding to them is poor structure. Ever have to write ANALYTICAL papers rather than persuasive ones? You know, papers where you're given a topic, you go out, find sources, and then add your own opinion by bouncing off of other peoples critiques/ facts you find while researching? If so, please explain how better to actually construct an argument.

What they lead to is a poor argument structure for challenging someone to take apart your points for, when the points blend between one and the other in the middle of one paragraph. It's because of this medium -- you're making a post on a forum, for someone else to respond to the bits of, and saying to address it point by point. If you're going to say things like that, you should have your points arranged in a manner that they can be addressed individually. I don't really care either way how you choose to do it, but what I'm saying is that you shouldn't say "Do it point by point" if you haven't presented them point by point to be replied to.

Also, could you reword the underlined section of the bolded line? I can't understand what you're saying.

"If you want to claim that they haven't been trying hard enough and it's somehow just their magical "thinking" he doesn't have one that means they can't beat him, you have to provide characters that go 60:40 and dominate MK."

Sorry, the whole idea that someone saying "MK is unbeatable" suddenly turning self fulfilling is just unrealistic. I did reverse one of my conditionals there though. (Someone who actually reads what is said though, I'm in shock. I was struggling a bit to put into words what I was trying to explain there and it got tangled up in the typing.)

And we should see soon enough whether indirect pressures work or not, I tried to get the "Tips vs. MK" thread revived for something along that purpose but it didn't work out, hopefully Dojo's attempt at organizing things will.

The problem is that even indirect pressure is going to be of only limited use given MK's characteristics -- it's going to have to be incredible pressure of a nature he can't learn how to reverse (Such as getting good at turning Diddy's bananas against him, if that's realistically possible) or just work around. Plus MK himself has some things that aren't immediately obvious that he hasn't been forced to utilize yet for breaking through pressure, like how extremely fast and long range his dtilt turned out to be -- it's not unrealistic to expect that none of the new possibilities will yield an edge over MK that will be anything other than an unfamiliarity advantage (Once he learns the matchup a good MK will win it anyway).

I hope something is found that can ruin him with a couple characters and make other people consider different mains or seconds. But there's been so many "Hey guys this works!" that have been destroyed after testing that while possible, you need proof if you want to convince me.

 

[Daimonster]

snip

Ahhh! I recall what you are referring to. Bwett was trying to set up that "perfect positioning" one day to explain to me how it works. His inability to do it on the spot, over many attempts, made me believe that doing the setup is highly situational and impractical. I know what you are referring to now. I can only hope you can maintain that spacing against a highly skilled metaknight player.

 

[Mmac]

He lost to us...since the day we met him in March. >_>;

But Yoshi's metagame didn't start to developed until I think May or June, If I remember..... I can't really comment on your matches on him because I haven't seen any...


Edit:

Gah, now I'm confused! So you WERE talking about MetaKnight? You do realize that what you were quoting I was talking about Falco/Snake right?

 

[Inui]

But Yoshi's metagame didn't start to developed until I think May or June, If I remember..... I can't really comment on your matches on him because I haven't seen any...

I've played him frequently starting then all the way up until...now.

I think Yoshi is at a disadvantage almost all the time, even on FD. I'd love for Yoshi to actually have an advantage to help shut the pro-ban people up, but he definitely doesn't do well against MK from my experiences.

 

[St. Viers]

@SalaboB: of course I read what you said...if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to do this debate thing properly Thanks for clearing that up, though. I hope my thought was a good one, even if it doesn't end up balencing.

Also, if you haven't got this already, my position is that UNTIL WE EXHAUST the other possibilities, he shouldn't be banned.

@Inui: yay, thank makes another person I know will get my MB references ^_^ It was either that or a connect4 allusion--I'm terrible at explaining things without analogies.

EDIT: my "deconstruct point by point" comment was deliberate, because it can't be done well, in the style people here use. Even though this is a forum, that isn't an excuse to argue sloppily. If one want's to deconstruct an argument, just do what I did, and reference the points you made, and write up a counter argument. I think our little 4 post discussion was probably the most clear and best presented; and hey, we understood each other's standpoint at the end, even if we didn't agree. Isn't that what SHOULD be happening in this thread?

 

[salaboB]

@SalaboB: of course I read what you said...if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to do this debate thing properly Thanks for clearing that up, though. I hope my thought was a good one, even if it doesn't end up balencing.

Also, if you haven't got this already, my position is that UNTIL WE EXHAUST the other possibilities, he shouldn't be banned.

I was too used to Yuna -- he also claimed to read everything, but he skimmed and replied to what he wanted me to be saying that I got extremely careless and am certain I've been dropping occasionally "not's" elsewhere that I never got called on.

The big problem I have with the idea of waiting until we exhaust the other possibilities is this: How do we know when we're done with the realistic answers? I'll give you that it is promising for this new idea of Dojo's to look specifically at MK's moves and how each character might be able to answer him, to break down his strategies and find holes that might be in them. But will it be enough to convince you, if that slows to a crawl without finding anything, that MK needs banning unless/until some major breakthrough occurs for a character later? Or will it still not be enough because there's still untapped potential in all the mid-low tiers that people aren't really playing with? For the sake of staying as sane as possible, I'd say I will still be pro-ban if after people's best effort with the pressure counters are found (ie, Dojo's thread at this point seems to be the best shot at it) the worst MK has to face is one or two 55:45 disadvantages regardless of stage. If more than that are located, particularily on the Neutral stages, I'll rethink my position.

How do you tell when the other possibilities are exhausted enough to merit a ban? What will be enough for you to change your mind? (Change your mind: It's no longer time to wait but time to ban. I assume better matchups being found will be enough to make you decide it's no longer time to consider a ban at all )