The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Emblem Lord]

No, see the best course of action is for us to play Guilty Gear.

Now THAT'S a fighting game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Agrees with the above poster.

Its just too early. Brawl may be advancing more rapidly than melee did, but evens o, we cannot truly say that the data we have now is firm evidence for or against the banning of MK.


Edit: Screw that I agree with both posters above me especially the idea on Guilty Gear. Baiken FTW!

 

[Atomsk_92]

banning mk won't stop m2k dsf and azen from being the best in america XD

 

[BentoBox]

BentoBox clearly hasn't seen the people who have my quotes as sigs nor has he ventured into the Marth boards lately.

i also love how i come in and get treated like a horrible player yet EL comes in and gets welcomed with open arms XDDD way to be biased

Since he just arrived "in" this thread, the groupies you may have on the Marth boards is irrelevant from what I can understand.

gheb is the new brinboy.

BlazBlue needs to come out on a console.

 

[ShadowLink84]

banning mk won't stop m2k dsf and azen from being the best in america XD

Again what does this have to do with the debate?

yeah M2K, DSF and Azen are the best and will remain so regardless of who is banned. however, we are not discussing how it affects them. We are discussing how MK affects the metagame.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

gheb is the new brinboy.

nooooooooooooooooo

not true. no f*ing way. nargh

brinboy is dumb...I'm just an atomsk fanboy...

 

[Atomsk_92]

Why are you a fan boy of me? you'd be better off being a fan boy of EL lol XD jk

 

[St. Viers]

except that gheb is simply stating that it is TOO EARLY TO make proclamations, and we should spend more time playing before we come to a conclusion...

Brinboy was just an idiot.

Also, people need to stop insulting players. Even if their records by themselves aren't important, nor does game skill = ability to debate, it DOES prove knowledge of the game. This bikering over Inui, M2K, OS, LeeHarris, etc it ********, and accomplishes nothing.

@EL: I'm suprised you can stand this thread enough to post int it =P Just a comment though: when you say that Marths dominace of major melee tournies isn't the same as MK's, you reference different game physics as an argument, and I'm curious as to how this changes that fact that Marth wasn't banned and MK is being considered for one? (I may be missing something obvious, but meh)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why are you a fan boy of me? you'd be better off being a fan boy of EL lol XD jk

Only a Marth player could be a EL fanboy XDDD

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why are you a fan boy of me? you'd be better off being a fan boy of EL lol XD jk

You have the Hulkster in your sig. Thats why.

Also, people need to stop insulting players. Even if their records by themselves aren't important, nor does game skill = ability to debate, it DOES prove knowledge of the game. This bikering over Inui, M2K, OS, LeeHarris, etc it ********, and accomplishes nothing.

Who was insulting the players?
All that has been aid is that while the person may be knowledgeable, their argument won't be considered very strong if they do not back it up.

 

[fkacyan]

Again what does this have to do with the debate?

yeah M2K, DSF and Azen are the best and will remain so regardless of who is banned. however, we are not discussing how it affects them. We are discussing how MK affects the metagame.

Actually, only the top levels of the metagame. Check the first post.

Banning MK isn't going to stop the money flow to people.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why are you a fan boy of me? you'd be better off being a fan boy of EL lol XD jk

No you're right.

Being an Emblem Lord fanboy = high tier.

Atomsk fanboy=mid tier.

except that gheb is simply stating that it is TOO EARLY TO make proclamations, and we should spend more time playing before we come to a conclusion...

Brinboy was just an idiot.

I do find it rather amusing that I've been saying basically the same thing for the entire thread, but I'm so specific about my viewpoint that depending on the moment I've been counted as both pro and anti-ban when my view hasn't changed at all.

Regardless, more to the issue is his overall knowledge, that's where the comparison came from.

It IS unfair though, Gheb definately is more compitent then brinboy.

Also, people need to stop insulting players. Even if their records by themselves aren't important, nor does game skill = ability to debate, it DOES prove knowledge of the game. This bikering over Inui, M2K, OS, LeeHarris, etc it ********, and accomplishes nothing.

The thing is knowledge of the game doesn't prove ability to conceptualize and apply this knowledge to scenarios. That's the crucial skill here, and that's why ability is totally irrelevant.

Also, it was that group that was arguing over their skill levels. Inui was the first to bring it up in a major way, and it continued from there.

Since it was diffused, not much of a point in bringing it up.

Who was insulting the players?
All that has been aid is that while the person may be knowledgeable, their argument won't be considered very strong if they do not back it up.

See the Inui discussion a bit back, it became rather explicitly about that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The mechanics of a game engine affects the match-ups since it lays the blue print for what each and every character is capable of.

Marth wasn't as dominant because Melee gave you more mobility and more ways to control your character. And it was far easier to do an action that you didn't have to commit too.

And of course...Marth had exploitable gameplay weaknesses. Plus a simple mistake could lead to either death or alot of damage since Melee has a high level of comboability.

Hence...different engine, different gameplay.

You had more ways to punish, more ways to control and more ways to make a comeback.

 

[LeeHarris]

If I ever see you guys in person, I am going to buy you a beer.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, only the top levels of the metagame. Check the first post.

Cause I was totally discussing lower levels of the metagame. /sarcasm

Banning MK isn't going to stop the money flow to people.

Where did I say it did?
Again DSF, M2K, Azen won't be affected if MK gets banned. They will remain in the top 3 no matter what.

You act as if MK affects how well they will do, he doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that MK would or would not be ban worthy.
We assume top level metagame but we aren't discussing how it will affect the players.

If the top 3 all used Akuma in SF2 they probably would always remain the top 3 even after Akuma was banned. That didn't change the fact that Akuma was ban worthy.

If I ever see you guys in person, I am going to buy you a beer.

Gimme a second to pack my bags.

 

[fkacyan]

If the top 3 all used Akuma in SF2 they probably would always remain the top 3 even after Akuma was banned. That didn't change the fact that Akuma was ban worthy.

Actually, the only issue with bannable characters is that they allow people to win who have less skill than those they are beating, and thus cause everybody to play MK.

If the top 8 is the same regardless of whether or not MK is present, then MK is clearly not ban-worthy. Of course, we haven't had enough large tourneys to really judge this yet.

 

[Justblaze647]

If I ever see you guys in person, I am going to buy you a beer.

lol... I'm gonna hold you to that

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, the only issue with bannable characters is that they allow people to win who have less skill than those they are beating, and thus cause everybody to play MK.

Woah that is not true, read up Sirlin again.The criterial for banning are those that cause overcentralization and stagnate the metagame. In short when it completely reduces the game to being only about one character.

Less skilled players would get wrecked in Japan regardless if they used Akuma by people using Old Sagat, Ken, Chun-Li, Sagat, etc etc.
The level of skill required to use a character never did.

Look at Fox's placement in the tierlist.
Marth outperforms him yet Fox is still top tier.
The amount of skill required to use a character does not matter.

If the top 8 is the same regardless of whether or not MK is present, then MK is clearly not ban-worthy. Of course, we haven't had enough large tourneys to really judge this yet.

No it just means that the top 8 people were really freaking good.
What matters is if the character viability changes dramatically which we have no proof.

By your own logic Akuma should never have been banned.
DAD return, Judgement Dragon decks, GB decks are all not overpowered and their engine not banned because the people using them are still so good.

 

[frdagaa]

Woah that is not true, read up Sirlin again.The criterial for banning are those that cause overcentralization and stagnate the metagame. In short when it completely reduces the game to being only about one character.

Less skilled players would get wrecked in Japan regardless if they used Akuma by people using Old Sagat, Ken, Chun-Li, Sagat, etc etc.
The level of skill required to use a character never did.

Look at Fox's placement in the tierlist.
Marth outperforms him yet Fox is still top tier.
The amount of skill required to use a character does not matter.



No it just means that the top 8 people were really freaking good.
What matters is if the character viability changes dramatically which we have no proof.

This. Not wanting to ban MK because the best players play MK and will still whoop your arse even after the ban is a really bad attitude. It's not about the individual best players, and never has been. What matters is character dynamics.

 

[fkacyan]

No it just means that the top 8 people were really freaking good.
What matters is if the character viability changes dramatically which we have no proof

All that matters is the top end of the metagame, which is people placing in the top 8.

If the same people are in before and after the ban, MK clearly was not affecting the metagame seriously enough to warrant a ban, at least at that given point in time.

@ Above: If there's no way to prove character dynamics, which there isn't at this point in time, who's placing is all that matters at the moment. If I were to beat, say, M2k, with my meta, then I'd be all for a ban of the character, but there's no evidence to prove that people who are worse are beating people who are better at the high ends of play right now.

EDIT: To respond to Shadowlink: Clearly people are winning with other characters right now, which means the only possible ban criteria is, once again, people who suck beating people who win.

In a few months, if and/or when MK is dominating the metagame, it will be viable to say he is stagnating the metagame, but at least in this region I can safely say that he isn't.

EDIT2: When I thought about it, overcentralization tends to be caused by skill differentiation. If a character is easy to use, he's that much easier to win with and takes less practice. Thus, anybody smart isn't going to fight the uphill battle of needing to know more for an even matchup, and thus would pick the easiest character.

You're saying this is true of MK: He takes less skill in even matchups than the characters he is even with, character-dynamics wise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You're saying this is true of MK: He takes less skill in even matchups than the characters he is even with, character-dynamics wise.

this is 100% failproof truth.

i also agree completely with justblazes sig

 

[ShadowLink84]

All that matters is the top end of the metagame, which is people placing in the top 8.

If the same people are in before and after the ban, MK clearly was not affecting the metagame seriously enough to warrant a ban, at least at that given point in time.

Again the same top 8 people were winning in SF2 after Akuma was banned, by your own logic Akuma should not have been banned because the same people kept placing.
Again thats a faulty argument and is NOT the basis of a ban.

Again those people are not the metagame, they represent the metagame but they are not the metagame itself.

@ Shadowlink84: If there's no way to prove character dynamics, which there isn't at this point in time, who's placing is all that matters at the moment. If I were to beat, say, M2k, with my meta, then I'd be all for a ban of the character, but there's no evidence to prove that people who are worse are beating people who are better at the high ends of play right now.

Except that M2K uses Meta so if you beat him, it just means you're the better play since you're both using the same character.
if you managed to beat him with ZSS, DK, Diddy consistently people would be more open.

EDIT: To respond to Shadowlink: Clearly people are winning with other characters right now, which means the only possible ban criteria is, once again, people who suck beating people who win.

There were people who would win with Old Sagat, Ken, Balrog, Ryu and Chun Li in Sf2 when Akuma was about. Akuma dominated, they didn't.
In this instance MK dominates but people still win. Doesn't change the fact that Akuma was banned and it doesn't excuse the fact that you're resorting to assume people suck.

Unless of course you believe that Overswarm is a bad player. Which by all means you are welcome to do.

In a few months, if and/or when MK is dominating the metagame, it will be viable to say he is stagnating the metagame, but at least in this region I can safely say that he isn't.

Agreed.

EDIT2: When I thought about it, overcentralization tends to be caused by skill differentiation. If a character is easy to use, he's that much easier to win with and takes less practice. Thus, anybody smart isn't going to fight the uphill battle of needing to know more for an even matchup, and thus would pick the easiest character.

Overcentralization is caused when the game is reduced to, play this character, do this strategy or risk losing.
Which is why we banned walled stages in melee or why Akuma was banned.

Skill differentiation does not matter at all, however, this is why the game needs more time to mature. If the skill level is giving off the idea of overcentralization, a ban would be premature.

You're saying this is true of MK: He takes less skill in even matchups than the characters he is even with, character-dynamics wise.

Agreed.

 

[BentoBox]

All that matters is the top end of the metagame, which is people placing in the top 8.

If the same people are in before and after the ban, MK clearly was not affecting the metagame seriously enough to warrant a ban, at least at that given point in time.

@ Above: If there's no way to prove character dynamics, which there isn't at this point in time, who's placing is all that matters at the moment. If I were to beat, say, M2k, with my meta, then I'd be all for a ban of the character, but there's no evidence to prove that people who are worse are beating people who are better at the high ends of play right now.

Hence why the burden of proof lays in their hands. Or would you rather have the whole community hop on the MK bandwagon to try and get a point across?

 

[fkacyan]

Skill differentiation does not matter at all, however, this is why the game needs more time to mature. If the skill level is giving off the idea of overcentralization, a ban would be premature.

This is agreeing with my argument then. If we ban him now, it has to be based on skill. However, as you say, that's not the basis for a ban, thus a ban would be premature.

My entire argument is based off of banning him now which can only be based on scrubs beating pros, which isn't happening.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is agreeing with my argument then. If we ban him now, it has to be based on skill. However, as you say, that's not the basis for a ban, thus a ban would be premature.

My entire argument is based off of banning him now which can only be based on scrubs beating pros, which isn't happening.

Actually it does not.
you are arguing skill. I am speaking of metagame. Again by your logic Akuma should never have been banned in the U.S.

I am agreeing that the game is still young. That the reason people feel there is overcentralization is because of skill level. The MK's are very skilled, everyone else is not yet as skilled.

I am not agreeing with your logic on what constitutes a ban.
If you are arguing for the game being too young due to skill, I agree.
If you are arguing for MK being unworthy of a ban because of skill I disagree.

We do have the issue of Inui beating NinjaLink's Diddy with his 2 week old MK. >_>

Even that would be ignored however since that may just mean Diddy gets hard countered and wouldn't reflect on things overall.

 

[Fletch]

No, see the best course of action is for us to play Melee.

Now THAT'S a fighting game.

Sick of waiting for someone else to come and fix your quote

Spoiler

(although GG is a great game from what I hear too)

.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Guilty Gear>Melee. Don't agree. Then...
DIE!

 

[Emblem Lord]

GG most fighting games period.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You missed the greater than sign EL.

 

[fkacyan]

Actually it does not.
you are arguing skill. I am speaking of metagame. Again by your logic Akuma should never have been banned in the U.S.

I am agreeing that the game is still young. That the reason people feel there is overcentralization is because of skill level. The MK's are very skilled, everyone else is not yet as skilled.

I am not agreeing with your logic on what constitutes a ban.
If you are arguing for the game being too young due to skill, I agree.
If you are arguing for MK being unworthy of a ban because of skill I disagree.

We do have the issue of Inui beating NinjaLink's Diddy with his 2 week old MK. >_>

Even that would be ignored however since that may just mean Diddy gets hard countered and wouldn't reflect on things overall.

All my arguments have been in the context of MK being banned on something like this Saturday, within which my arguments make perfect sense. A character being unbelievably broken to the point a new smasher can beat a veteran is the only real way to constitute a ban with a metagame this young.

I concede that in the long run what I'm saying is unviable, but right now arguing metagame is pointless for the moment seeing as a nationwide ban would encompass different regional metagames.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If I ever see you guys in person, I am going to buy you a beer.

Next time I'm in Texas I'll look you up.

All that matters is the top end of the metagame, which is people placing in the top 8.

If the same people are in before and after the ban, MK clearly was not affecting the metagame seriously enough to warrant a ban, at least at that given point in time.

No, top of the metagame is concerned with application of all discoveries to their fullest technical effect. NOT specific players, though they're easy to point to as "at the top".

Nobody has achieved the top of the metagame for melee fox yet for example.

EDIT: To respond to Shadowlink: Clearly people are winning with other characters right now, which means the only possible ban criteria is, once again, people who suck beating people who win.

Which only works if your "top of the metagame assumption refers to only specific people, not technical ability.

We see plenty of MKs who suck beating say, Marths of higher skill.

 

[fkacyan]

We see plenty of MKs who suck beating say, Marths of higher skill.

Which Tri-state area do you live in?

Results pages plx.

 

[DRaGZ]

GG most fighting games period.

Bah, nobody remembers Power Stone anymore.

Now that was a sweet game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Bah, nobody remembers Power Stone anymore.

Now that was a sweet game.

I don't have the original Power Stone, but Power Stone 2 was pretty sweet.

 

[BentoBox]

Bah, nobody remembers Power Stone anymore.

Now that was a sweet game.

The upcoming Castlevania Judgement coming up on the Wii might interest you then. Same arena-type fighting game iirc.

/off-topic

 

[Inui]

We see plenty of MKs who suck beating say, Marths of higher skill.

Back when I mained Marth, I defeated dmbrandon twice and teh_spamerer once(and always took matches in other sets) in Marth vs Meta Knight, and both players not only used Meta Knight but were also superior players at the time. I won anyways.

So while Sethlon has an amazing Falco and he is clearly superior to me, I used MK in tournament and won because not only is my character superior to his, but there is no possible stage he can counterpick me to. It's sad when a top tier stands no chance against another top tier.

Then Sethlon sucks against Meta Knight.

-Falco can CG combo him to ~60%,
-Lasers force Meta Knight to approach and they beat the tornado.
-Falco's u-smash kills Meta Knight at ~105% with good DI, and f-smash kills even earlier and beats the tornado and most of Meta Knight's moves.
-If Meta Knight hogs the edge when Falco recovers, Falco can f-b on the stage and be safe. Meta Knight's only real way of punishing Falco's recovery is the tornado, which won't send Falco back off the stage.

I can only assume that Sethlon didn't camp enough.

The vast majority of top players on the East Coast don't want Meta Knight banned from what I can tell, and the hosts aren't banning him. I guess this debate won't really apply to me much. It will just discourage me from traveling OOS.

@Guilty Gear: The Smash community needs to get ***** by my Slayer. GG is amazing.

 

[WITH]

Theres not gonna be some magical discovery in brawl that changes the metagame...that is all...

 

[Fletch]

Bah, nobody remembers Power Stone anymore.

Now that was a sweet game.

**** straight, I fired up my DC recently just to play it. Why don't we get more Power Stone?

 

[fkacyan]

@Guilty Gear: The Smash community needs to get ***** by my Slayer. GG is amazing.

I'd slayer ditto you but I haven't played with a stick in forever and controller format sucks. Almost impossible to do halfcirclebackforward with a dpad.

 

[Inui]

The only reason I'd switch to stick is be able to combo JD to J2K at the end of Slayer's normal air combo. That's considered nearly impossible on pad.