The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[~ Gheb ~]

But if you aren't so good you don'T know about the match-up from the highest skill level

 

[Justblaze647]

M2K is among the best players but when he tries to make a point he does the equivalent of "Cause I said so".

Again people really need to get off the idea that good player=good argument.

If I main Sonic and I wreck an MK. I cannot state Sonic is a counter to MK without validating my points.

I may be the best but it doesn't mean what I say is true.

ie: Form your own opinion... you dont have to follow what anyone else says because of a title they may (or may not) have... just make sure that you have a sufficient argument to back up your opinion...

 

[ShadowLink84]

But if you aren't so good you don'T know about the match-up from the highest skill level

How wouldn't I? if I already know everything about my character and the opponents and I know all of their capabilities, I would be very capable of determining the matchup.

All that being a good player affords you is a higher likelihood of having the correct answer.

It does not automatically mean that because you are good, you know the matchup.
Being capable of delivering valid, solid points is much more important ina discussion than going"lol im m2k i know more than you". (he never says such a thing its an example)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How wouldn't I? if I already know everything about my character and the opponents and I know all of their capabilities, I would be very capable of determining the matchup.

Do you really know everything or do you think you know everything?


Either way, I'm not gonna debate this stuff anymore, since I already said everything: It's too early to ban MK. If things don't change until Jan 09, he should be banned but not now. Melee used to be the same. Nobody thought about Sheil being beatable and she was almost banned but it turned out different. Melee turned out to be an amazing game. I don't wanna miss that opportunity by banning MK and just whining.

While you guys sit here writing all this crap you could just play the actual game and try to find something (Don't say there's nothing left - there's always something that might be useful)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you really know everything or do you think you know everything?

Re-read the statement. It goes based on the assumption that I know everything.
Quit the Socratic behavior before I bite your head off and eat it.

Either way, I'm not gonna debate this stuff anymore, since I already said everything: It's too early to ban MK. If things don't change until Jan 09, he should be banned but not now. Melee used to be the same. Nobody thought about Sheik being beatable and she was almost banned but it turned out different. Melee turned out to be an amazing game. I don't wanna miss that opportunity by banning MK and just whining.

I agree with this but not for the reasons that you have provided. The reasons that you argue are just not enough or too flawed.

While you guys sit here writing all this crap you could just play the actual game and try to find something (Don't say there's nothing left - there's always something that might be useful)

This is rather insulting to everyone in this topic because it assumes people don't play the matchup or MK and try to learn about it. Which is bad.

 

[QUIVO]

IDK what you're talking about, my bowser is tooooo good.

Though I lost to Dlaw's Samus in a friendly : (

 

[Justblaze647]

This is rather insulting to everyone in this topic because it assumes people don't play the matchup or MK and try to learn about it. Which is bad.

It is also incorrect...

 

[AlphaZealot]

I love how Inui COMPLETLY IGNORED when me and LeeHarris refuted his "This is one tournament" argument and contintinued as if nothing occured.

This "one tournament" argument essentially sums up the only times characters other than Marth won large regional/national tournaments in Melee. I'm glad that argument is being used, because you've essentially discredited those wins as mere flukes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This "one tournament" argument essentially sums up the only times characters other than Marth won large regional/national tournaments in Melee. I'm glad that argument is being used, because you've essentially discredited those wins as mere flukes.

So you're glad he is cherry picking?
And I am very sure that other characters besides marth won outside the national tournaments and that he does not dominate as much as MK does.

Let alone the fact that it defeats itself in the fact that MK is in six or 7 of the top eight while Marth is only int he top three!

So not only is it stupid to use just one national tournament or just national tournaments by themselves, it defeats itself in showing that marth takes up less spots than MK does.

Now I am going to get myself some lunch. Read my child psychology book and let everyone else does as they please.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But if you aren't so good you don'T know about the match-up from the highest skill level

You are not required to be good to understand how a high-leveled match-up will develop.

You just need to be intelligent.


Even if you can't actually apply Marth's frametrap in the game because your reflexes aren't fast enough, knowing that it is a frametrap and knowing the options off the frame-trap is enough to suffice for match-up discussion.

Understanding of the attributes behind a move and ability to apply that in a debate>ability to apply the move in a game as far as match-up discussions are concerned.

 

[Atomsk_92]

lol reading this thread proves more and more why scrubs are scrubs

i don't main mk and i believe he shouldn't be banned

out of the top 3 best players in america only one mains mk

M2K= MK
DSF=Snake
Azen=Lucario

hmmm lets look at the top 2 in melee

M2K=Marth
Azen=Marth


hmm go figure, but i didn't hear anything about marth being banend

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol reading this thread proves more and more why scrubs are scrubs

i don't main mk and i believe he shouldn't be banned

Contribution to the thread/support for arguments?

Saying that scrubs are scrubs and you believe MK should be banned doesn't mean much.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

atomsk has actual experience on the highest level...

just saying

 

[Atomsk_92]

read the post again dumb ***

atomsk has actual experience on the highest level...

just saying

lol i gots a fan :D

 

[Irow]

I'm pretty sure DSF mains MK now, just saying.

 

[Atomsk_92]

i doubt a majority of people posting in this thread have actually placed 1st in a tourny over mks XD

 

[adumbrodeus]

read the post again dumb ***



lol i gots a fan :D

You editted AFTER I posted.

Respond to my post with reasoning, don't pretend that you initially said something and act like it's my fault that I didn't respond to a non-existant portion of your post.

That's just basic message board etiquette.

atomsk has actual experience on the highest level...

just saying

I know, so? That's irrelevant in a debate.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gheb is a high level meat rider.

lolz.

 

[Atomsk_92]

adumbrodeus- how many times have you won a tourny?

omg EL you still exist?

 

[Atomsk_92]

double post ftl

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@EL

hahaha lololol

I know, so? That's irrelevant in a debate.

Do you think it's coincidence, that all top level players - with the exception of NEO - don't eant MK banned? Does Bum complain about MK? Does Snakeeeee complain about MK? Does atomsk complain about MK? No. They just learn how to deal with him. And succeed. And the MKs on the EC are not some random dudes. Rather guys like: Forte, InfernoOmni, Inui...

...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Indeed.

What about you?

Didn't you disappear in your crew thread, stuck in the 69 position with Inui?

 

[Atomsk_92]

Do you think it's coincidence, that all top level players - with the exception of NEO - don't eant MK banned? Does Bum complain about MK? Does Snakeeeee complain about MK? Does atomsk complain about MK? No. They just learn how to deal with him. And succeed. And the MKs on the EC are not some random dudes. Rather guys like: Forte, InfernoOmni, Inui...

...

lol i have a winning record with all those MKs XD

You editted AFTER I posted.

Respond to my post with reasoning, don't pretend that you initially said something

ok respond to what it says now



i also love how i come in and get treated like a horrible player yet EL comes in and gets welcomed with open arms XDDD way to be biased

 

[Brinzy]

... I tried to adblock that stupid Hulk sig, and it got replaced by Lucky Star?

 

[Atomsk_92]

yea luckystar is amazing XD so is hulk hogan XD

 

[Brinzy]

Well it's a lot more standable than that Hulk thing.

... I'm so off-topic right now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumbrodeus- how many times have you won a tourny?

It has no bearing on the discussion. Didn't we just get through explaining how M2K, the best player in the US, cannot debate for his life? At best, even referencing to a person's tournament ability or any personal quality that they have as a response to anything is an Ad Hominem logical fallacy.

ok respond to what it says now

I was really just annoyed at the spam and I was encourging you to post SOMETHING SUBSTANTATIVE.

Which you did, and now I'm happy.

i also love how i come in and get treated like a horrible player yet EL comes in and gets welcomed with open arms XDDD way to be biased

It's cause we like him better. Lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

You don't exactly have an amazing reputation or even a great online personality Atomsk.

Wanna be loved?

Don't be an ***.

It's that simple.

Basically...do the OPPOSITE of what your boy Inui does.

 

[Atomsk_92]

so yea on topic

out of the top 3 best players in america only one mains mk

M2K= MK
DSF=Snake
Azen=Lucario

hmmm lets look at the top 2 in melee

M2K=Marth
Azen=Marth


hmm go figure, but i didn't hear anything about marth being banned

this

 

[Emblem Lord]

Different engine and different mechanics.

Debate better plz.

 

[Snakeee]

*this is shadow* =/ inui.. don't go by that placing for me. they forgot to put me into the brackets so they put me directly in losers vs NL and i wasn't very happy about all that and so he wrecked me lol.

 

[TeeVee]

Plus. doesnt DSF main MK now, and Azen uses MK in tournies too...

 

[Brinzy]

I heard about that tournament. Didn't it last a long time and people were complaining about time or something? I read somewhere that it did (or could've) taken up to like 2 or 3 AM.

 

[BentoBox]

@atomsk: Nobody's been treating you "like are are a bad player", everybody knows you. You've simply been asked to post your arguments coherently, was it too much to ask out of you?

And who welcomed EL with open arms?

You already have someone riding yours, while EL doesn't, you should be pleased. :]

 

[Atomsk_92]

EL you can debate better by not lying and saying

MK has no exploitable weaknesses. If you beat MK you didn't actually beat MK. You just beat the person using MK. This is called bad character design.

way to say no matter how skilled you are the other player just f'd up

 

[Emblem Lord]

BentoBox clearly hasn't seen the people who have my quotes as sigs nor has he ventured into the Marth boards lately.

On topic: MK is TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good.

Atomsk: I said exactly what you just said. I said that if you are the better player you will win. If you beat MK, it was because you are more skilled is essentially what I said. MK himself has no flaws in his gameplay for you to take advantage of.


Sooooooo, yeah.

Try not to make yourself look even stupider in the future.

It doesn't look good for an aspiring young high level player.

 

[LeeHarris]

@EL

hahaha lololol



Do you think it's coincidence, that all top level players - with the exception of NEO - don't eant MK banned? Does Bum complain about MK? Does Snakeeeee complain about MK? Does atomsk complain about MK? No. They just learn how to deal with him. And succeed. And the MKs on the EC are not some random dudes. Rather guys like: Forte, InfernoOmni, Inui...

...

What? All top level players? Hahahaha...

lol reading this thread proves more and more why scrubs are scrubs

i don't main mk and i believe he shouldn't be banned

out of the top 3 best players in america only one mains mk

M2K= MK
DSF=Snake
Azen=Lucario

hmmm lets look at the top 2 in melee

M2K=Marth
Azen=Marth


hmm go figure, but i didn't hear anything about marth being banend

DSF mains MK, M2K mains MK, and Azen had to go MK to win several matches at HOBO11. Your argument just got destroyed.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol reading this thread proves more and more why scrubs are scrubs

i don't main mk and i believe he shouldn't be banned

out of the top 3 best players in america only one mains mk

M2K= MK
DSF=Snake
Azen=Lucario

hmmm lets look at the top 2 in melee

M2K=Marth
Azen=Marth


hmm go figure, but i didn't hear anything about marth being banend

What the does this prove!?

One of the top three players uses MK.
That is pretty much it. How in anyway does this at all reflect on whether or not MK needs to be banned?

The criteria for banning is how much that character affects the metagame, not who uses the character.

 

[Atomsk_92]

everybody knows you.

this. i didn't know 0_0

 

[metalmonstar]

Atomsk, you are forgetting so many more big name Marths. Also there was a pretty good mix of other top and high tier top players. What we have now is other mains starting to switch over because they can do better with MK.

Lee came in third at HOBO above DSF does that mean Lee is the third best player in the world or does that say something about MK.

EC is against Metaknight ban. I really would hate to see metaknight banned permanently, that says a lot about our competitive game if we have to ban a character. I think though that it is too soon. The best course of action is to hold non MK tournaments as well as tournaments with MK and then compare the results to see if MK is really as bad as we have theorized him to be.