The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Inui]

The IC infinite is the only one that isn't gamebreaking and completely skill-less.

 

[Turbo Ether]

But the infinites were banned universally according to you. I was pointing out that there is no justifacation whatsoever for banning infinites universally because they're not gamebreaking.

DDD's as well, all it gives him is some advantagious match-ups.




Which is the textbook definition of a bad match-up...

Why should a bad match-up be solved by banning moves? We have counter-picking for a reason.

Infinites not being gamebreaking is strictly subjective.

Their region, their tournament, their rules. They can ban whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't attend.

 

[Fletch]

You guys would be laughed out of any other fighting game community.

The infinites were banned and should be.

............

 

[adumbrodeus]

The IC infinite is the only one that isn't gamebreaking and completely skill-less.

Skill-less, aka efficent.

What makes it gamebreaking? All it does is give DDD and Yoshi (most of his stuff is deathgrabs, but you get the point) some good/even match-ups. For just about everyone else... they're pretty much useless.

Infinites not being gamebreaking is strictly subjective.

Where's the ICs winning every tournament then?

Their region, their tournament, their rules. They can ban whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't attend.

Of course, but doesn't stop it from being a scrub move, just because a TO can do whatever he/she/it/potato wants doesn't make it the right move.

 

[Inui]

............

LOL

Infinites in stuff like Marvel take tons of technical skill, require stuff like super meters, and like 10+ characters can do infinites. It's not like Brawl where you press grab and that's it, the match is over.

What makes it gamebreaking? All it does is give DDD and Yoshi (most of his stuff is deathgrabs, but you get the point) some good/even match-ups. For just about everyone else... they're pretty much useless.

A lot of characters become 100% negated and never allowed to win.

 

[memphischains]

<3 inui .

 

[Fletch]

LOL

Infinites in stuff like Marvel take tons of technical skill, require stuff like super meters, and like 10+ characters can do infinites. It's not like Brawl where you press grab and that's it, the match is over.

Which is why Brawl isn't a good game competitively in the first place where stuff like that is so easy to do. But anyways, Inui is right, Brawl has a scrub community, and MK is nowhere near the level he would need to be to be banned yet. If you disagree, go play Metaknight and start winning every tournament. We can play theorycraft all day, but results speak louder than words.

 

[Inui]

I don't think Brawl is a good game competitively. I doubt people would seriously say Brawl is a competitive game on the same level as Melee, Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, etc. I just play Brawl as my main game because it has a lot more activity than Melee and Guilty Gear and I can win money more easily.

Meta Knight is the best character. Every game has a best character. Just learn how to beat him. Plenty of people beat Meta Knight. East Coast has characters like DK and Lucario taking 1st in majors.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Skill-less, aka efficent.

What makes it gamebreaking? All it does is give DDD and Yoshi (most of his stuff is deathgrabs, but you get the point) some good/even match-ups. For just about everyone else... they're pretty much useless.



Where's the ICs winning every tournament then?



Of course, but doesn't stop it from being a scrub move, just because a TO can do whatever he/she/it/potato wants doesn't make it the right move.

I never said IC's infinites were/weren't game breaking. I said it was subjective. Don't bother preaching to me about how gamebreaking it isn't, because I would agree with you. However, unlike you, I don't have a problem with a TO wanting to ban it.

NYC obviously doesn't care that you think it's a scrub move to ban infinites. Go PM lightxdream or Bum, well-known NYC TOs, if you're so adamant about how the game should be played.

 

[adumbrodeus]

LOL

Infinites in stuff like Marvel take tons of technical skill, require stuff like super meters, and like 10+ characters can do infinites. It's not like Brawl where you press grab and that's it, the match is over.

So... just because it's easy, it's bad?

I'm sorry, but that's a textbook scrub attitude. Something being easy has no bearing on whether or not it should be used, banning is a last resort, period.

The only criteria is, if it makes a character overwhelming over-centralize the game.

Quite frankly, even if that is the case, it should be on a case by case basis, there's no reason to universally ban infinites.

A lot of characters become 100% negated and never allowed to win.

Just like all 80-20 or worse match-ups. By the same token we could ban marth's fair and bair because without them he doesn't go 80-20 with ganondorf....

I never said IC's infinites were/weren't game breaking. I said it was subjective. Don't bother preaching to me about how gamebreaking it isn't, because I would agree with you. However, unlike you, I don't have a problem with a TO wanting to ban it.

NYC obviously doesn't care that you think it's a scrub move to ban infinites. Go PM lightxdream or Bum, well-known NYC TOs, if you're so adamant about how the game should be played.

Really, I don't care what they care about, all I'm doing is pointing it out because the topic came up.

 

[Inui]

So... just because it's easy, it's bad?

I'm sorry, but that's a textbook scrub attitude. Something being easy has no bearing on whether or not it should be used, banning is a last resort, period.

The only criteria is, if it makes a character overwhelming over-centralize the game.

Quite frankly, even if that is the case, it should be on a case by case basis, there's no reason to universally ban infinites.

Yeah, I'm a scrub and not a national class player that has been doing extremely well in tournaments and wins big ones. Oh, wait...

Anyways, if doing the infinite is just...getting a grab with the best grabber in the game, then it's indeed ********.

Just like all 80-20 or worse match-ups. By the same token we could ban marth's fair and bair because without them he doesn't go 80-20 with ganondorf....

Dedede's infinites make several of his matches 100/0 in his favour instead of 80/20. 100/0 shouldn't be allowed to exist.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, I'm a scrub and not a national class player that has been doing extremely well in tournaments and wins big ones. Oh, wait...

Anyways, if doing the infinite is just...getting a grab with the best grabber in the game, then it's indeed ********.

Attitude reference not skill level. I know that your skill is national grade, but that doesn't make you immune from having scrubbish opinions.

"********"=/=bannable.

Dedede's infinites make several of his matches 100/0 in his favour instead of 80/20. 100/0 shouldn't be allowed to exist.

Why?

What makes a 100-0 match-up so special that everything that could which could result in it must be banned?

 

[Deoxys]

I thought DDD/Bowser was the only 100/0 matchup.

 

[complexity1234]

um.. ice climbers infinite is the same as dededes infinite.... because they both are.. infinities. Its just iceclimbers is slightly situational since it requires they both be together.

Skill has nothing to do with infinities. Just because one is harder than another doesn't change the fact that it is still an infinite. 1 grab = stock. And dedede has a chain grab on alot of characters that never ends by % so that in itself is completely unfair to the other player.

At least characters like falco and pika have chain grabs that end by a % eventually (even though its still g@y).

 

[NinjaFoxX]

um.. ice climbers infinite is the same as dededes infinite.... because they both are.. infinities. Its just iceclimbers is slightly situational since it requires they both be together.

Skill has nothing to do with infinities. Just because one is harder than another doesn't change the fact that it is still an infinite. 1 grab = stock. And dedede has a chain grab on alot of characters that never ends by % so that in itself is completely unfair to the other player.

At least characters like falco and pika have chain grabs that end by a % eventually (even though its still g@y).

Riight, you try sucessfully doing a 0-death CG in a serious match all 3 stock without messing up ONCE or better yet, do that w/o getting hit a single time, you do that, and MAYBE ill consider trying to ban IC CGs

but this is offtopic so ill get back to MK,hes not truly broken unless every matchups was a 7:3 or lower,then i'd consider total ban,but now, eh,idk ban him make the scrubs cry cuz they cant use a broken character(even if he deserves it)

 

[Natch]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200715

Largest tournament on the East Coast, 167 ENTRANTS WITH A LOT OF TOP PLAYERS:

1: Bum (DONKEY KONG)
2/3: D1 (FALCO)
2/3: Basic Sausage (DEDEDE)
4: Snakeee (ZERO SUIT SAMUS
5: DireVulcan (GAME AND WATCH)
5: NinjaLink (DIDDY KONG)
7: Atomsk (DEDEDE)
7: Zen
9. Blue (SONIC)
9. Eli
9. Ref (NESS)
9. Shadow (THE BEST META KNIGHT IN NY LOL)

I guess everywhere else just sucks too much to beat Meta Knight? NY sure did an amazing job at keeping them from even placing high. teh_spamerer and I weren't there and probably would have placed top, but that's still barely anything compared to what some of you claim about Meta Knight dominating every tournament.

You guys would be laughed out of any other fighting game community.

@My set with AlphaZealot being so close: I was nice and agreed to all neutrals without banning FD, which actually gives Diddy a huge advantage. I wanted to see how I'd do without relying on gay stages and get experience fighting Diddy on his best stage. It was fun. He is a really good player and we both knew that match-up really well. He may have won the set if he didn't get shaken up so badly after messing up on Lylat.

So ya what about the other bazillion tournaments across America? To be serious though, there are some problems here. Disregarding the fact that your tournament is not the only one in existance, the fact that Ankoku's ranking thread places MK at the top by a very large margin, and the fact that the "MK>9000 BAN PLOX" argument has long been abandonded by the majority of the pro-MK ban side, and that majority agrees that is no longer a valid reason. For those who do say "dominate", they either are part of the minority, or they have some other definition of "dominate" which is significantly less than yours.

Besides all that, I see some moon logic here I'm not quite following. Lemme break it down for you.

1. MK didn't dominate
2. Top NY player gets 9th
3. Thus, we all suck at fighting MK, or some other conclusion you didn't quite elaborate on.

Now, for that conclusion. I believe there are 3 possible alternatives to "Everyone else sucks fighting MK".

A. The "Top MK" in the NY area was less skilled by a fair margin in comparison to those who placed higher than him. IE. He sucks.

B. He was of greater skill than those who placed above him, and he placed low because those characters suddenly counter MK.

C. He was off his game that day.

You'd have to a complete douche to think MK doesn't counter any of those characters. Srsly. B is out the window, leaving A and C. You've essentially proved nothing. Even the "MK IS TOO OVERPOWERED BAN PLOX" argument wouldn't be disproved by THIS piece of evidence alone, as you would have to provide a much larger sample size. I'm not saying that argument is true, it's completly false. But just because there was ONE tournament on ONE occasion where MK DIDN'T place in the top 8 says nothing for any possible argument it would attempt to refute, unless the argument happened to be "MK DOMINATED EVERY TOURNAMENT EVER", which is even worse than the "TOO POWERFUL MUST BAN" argument, because at least that argument assumes exceptions have been taken into account. And even if a sample size of one was enough to prove something here, you're only helping the pro-ban side by weeding out the scrubs in our group who still think MK is uber broken and thus needs a banhammer.

Afterthoughts: I'm not arguing weather or not MK should be banned or not, I'm just saying you have some faulty logic here, that stems from questionably to blatently false assumptions. And even if you prove it's completly valid, anyone with some amount of metagame knowledge-regardless of the side they're on-agrees that MK is not Akuma style broken. Your argument makes a moot point at best, and a logic blunder at worse.

Personally, I'm GLAD to see a tournament where MK didn't do so well. It gives me hope. Ultimately, the pro-ban group wants MK to not be an issue one way or another. If that happens because MK starts sucking for some reason, then we're going to stop arguing because we're satisfied.

 

[frdagaa]

So ya what about the other bazillion tournaments across America? To be serious though, there are some problems here. Disregarding the fact that your tournament is not the only one in existance, the fact that Ankoku's ranking thread places MK at the top by a very large margin, and the fact that the "MK>9000 BAN PLOX" argument has long been abandonded by the majority of the pro-MK ban side, and that majority agrees that is no longer a valid reason. For those who do say "dominate", they either are part of the minority, or they have some other definition of "dominate" which is significantly less than yours.

Besides all that, I see some moon logic here I'm not quite following. Lemme break it down for you.

1. MK didn't dominate
2. Top NY player gets 9th
3. Thus, we all suck at fighting MK, or some other conclusion you didn't quite elaborate on.

Now, for that conclusion. I believe there are 3 possible alternatives to "Everyone else sucks fighting MK".

A. The "Top MK" in the NY area was less skilled by a fair margin in comparison to those who placed higher than him. IE. He sucks.

B. He was of greater skill than those who placed above him, and he placed low because those characters suddenly counter MK.

C. He was off his game that day.

You'd have to a complete douche to think MK doesn't counter any of those characters. Srsly. B is out the window, leaving A and C. You've essentially proved nothing. Even the "MK IS TOO OVERPOWERED BAN PLOX" argument wouldn't be disproved by THIS piece of evidence alone, as you would have to provide a much larger sample size. I'm not saying that argument is true, it's completly false. But just because there was ONE tournament on ONE occasion where MK DIDN'T place in the top 8 says nothing for any possible argument it would attempt to refute, unless the argument happened to be "MK DOMINATED EVERY TOURNAMENT EVER", which is even worse than the "TOO POWERFUL MUST BAN" argument, because at least that argument assumes exceptions have been taken into account. And even if a sample size of one was enough to prove something here, you're only helping the pro-ban side by weeding out the scrubs in our group who still think MK is uber broken and thus needs a banhammer.

Afterthoughts: I'm not arguing weather or not MK should be banned or not, I'm just saying you have some faulty logic here, that stems from questionably to blatently false assumptions. And even if you prove it's completly valid, anyone with some amount of metagame knowledge-regardless of the side they're on-agrees that MK is not Akuma style broken. Your argument makes a moot point at best, and a logic blunder at worse.

Personally, I'm GLAD to see a tournament where MK didn't do so well. It gives me hope. Ultimately, the pro-ban group wants MK to not be an issue one way or another. If that happens because MK starts sucking for some reason, then we're going to stop arguing because we're satisfied.

Thank you. This is almost precisely correct. Just because MK did not place well in a single big tournament does not mean that he's fine. There are so many other factors to consider that any argument based off of a single tournament is faulty, and Inui's argument failed to take into account any of those factors.

People, remember: just because a person's good at Brawl doesn't mean they're automatically correct. There are good people on both sides of the argument, so please pay attention to the logic of each side.

Metaknight still has a detrimental effect on the metagame. Metaknight still dominates that metagame, even beyond what Old Sagat did, who along with Akuma was soft-banned in Japan. This tournament MK didn't do well? Alright. How do we know the people playing MK didn't just suck?

Keeping Metaknight in the game will just end up hurting the community. There's almost no competitive reason to play anyone except him. That means that either Brawl should be abandoned as a competitive game, Brawl should become MK only, or we should ban MK. Of those three, I choose C.

 

[ShadowLink84]

LOL

Infinites in stuff like Marvel take tons of technical skill, require stuff like super meters, and like 10+ characters can do infinites. It's not like Brawl where you press grab and that's it, the match is over.

Wait what?
Since when did the legvel of difficulty mean anything. The ends is always what matters. An infinite in Brawl is the exact same as an infinite in Marvel.
The technical skill required is meaningless.

A lot of characters become 100% negated and never allowed to win.

none of the cahracters in brawl are 100% unviable. Hell at worst its 80:20 (still pretty bad but better than 100-0)

Yeah, I'm a scrub and not a national class player that has been doing extremely well in tournaments and wins big ones. Oh, wait...

Doesn't matter. An idiot is an idiot regardless of how skillful he may be in a game.
Just because you ahve alot of experience and do very well in tournaments, does not automatically gaurantee that what you say is correct or true.

The points placed forward, the argument made, is more important than the person behind the argument.

let alone he was saying its a scrub mentality not that you were a scrub.

Anyways, if doing the infinite is just...getting a grab with the best grabber in the game, then it's indeed ********.

Yes but that doesn't amtter in the end..

Dedede's infinites make several of his matches 100/0 in his favour instead of 80/20. 100/0 shouldn't be allowed to exist.

Really? Prove that DDD has 100-0 matchups and that his grabs are gauranteed in the matchup. That the opponent has absolutely no emthod of reducing the times grabbed.

Not even DK will get infinited very easily if he spaces himself properly.

Just because it is easy doesn't mean anything because in MvC2, Storm, Cable, Magneto and Sentinel absolutely obliterate everyone below them.

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight Tournament Result Comparison Thread ~

For anyone wishing to argue the facts on Meta Knights current and recent tournament rankings, it is a good thing to be informed before you speak. Here's a good place to start.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ulevo needs to have my babies.

 

[Tenki]

Pools/FFA's are MK's weaknesses? :3

 

[LeeHarris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200715

Largest tournament on the East Coast, 167 ENTRANTS WITH A LOT OF TOP PLAYERS:

1: Bum (DONKEY KONG)
2/3: D1 (FALCO)
2/3: Basic Sausage (DEDEDE)
4: Snakeee (ZERO SUIT SAMUS
5: DireVulcan (GAME AND WATCH)
5: NinjaLink (DIDDY KONG)
7: Atomsk (DEDEDE)
7: Zen
9. Blue (SONIC)
9. Eli
9. Ref (NESS)
9. Shadow (THE BEST META KNIGHT IN NY LOL)

I guess everywhere else just sucks too much to beat Meta Knight? NY sure did an amazing job at keeping them from even placing high. teh_spamerer and I weren't there and probably would have placed top, but that's still barely anything compared to what some of you claim about Meta Knight dominating every tournament.

You guys would be laughed out of any other fighting game community.

Haha, you sure showed us. All those talented NY players who main MK got wrecked! Oh wait, NYC doesn't have any good (Metaknight) players, so your results are insignificant in this debate. Who the hell is Shadow? And please don't reference NJ. You guys have M2K's **** and a handful of other smashers.

It has already been established that if you are clearly a significantly better player you will have no problem taking out MK players. That's not the issue here.

@My set with AlphaZealot being so close: I was nice and agreed to all neutrals without banning FD, which actually gives Diddy a huge advantage. I wanted to see how I'd do without relying on gay stages and get experience fighting Diddy on his best stage. It was fun. He is a really good player and we both knew that match-up really well. He may have won the set if he didn't get shaken up so badly after messing up on Lylat.

AKA: "I even gave him the advantage and I still won with MK." I hear from AZ that no one even took matches from you except him. Going from scrub to 2-0 every person in bracket after changing a character is quite the feat good sir.

LOL

Infinites in stuff like Marvel take tons of technical skill, require stuff like super meters, and like 10+ characters can do infinites. It's not like Brawl where you press grab and that's it, the match is over.

A lot of characters become 100% negated and never allowed to win.

You obviously don't know anything about the ICs. The timing is different for each character, and the highest I've ever seen someone get CGd in tournament was 50%. Hylian is considered one of the best ICs in the country. Know what my record is against his ICs with ROB? 2-0. Don't get grabbed and don't make johns when you get wrecked because you're too bad to avoid their horrible grab range.

 

[Inui]

Metaknight still dominates that metagame, even beyond what Old Sagat did, who along with Akuma was soft-banned in Japan.

LMAO @ comparing Meta Knight to Akuma and Old Sagat

It's soooo different. Akuma had a move that the game's physics gave no answer to, making him unbeatable. Old Sagat was just plain too good to compete with. Meta Knight actually has a bad match and several even ones.

Meta Knight is the best character in the game and a lot of people win with him.

Why didn't you all cry like little babies when Marth won 99% of all big tournaments because Azen, Mew2King, and Ken all mained Marth in 2007?

Marth had a bad match. It was Sheik. Sheik had bad matches in Fox and Falco. Fox and Falco had bad matches in Marth.

Meta Knight has a bad match. It's Snake. Snake has bad matches in Dedede and Falco. Dedede loses to Meta Knight and Falco. Falco loses to Marth and Game and Watch. Game and Watch loses to Snake and Meta Knight.

Wait a second.

Among the S/top tiers themselves, the game is perfectly balanced. The crappy characters just can't win. They are bottom tiers. They're not supposed to win.

If you ban Meta Knight, Dedede still ***** the bad characters 90/10 and over half the cast is still utterly crippled by Snake, Game and Watch, and the rest of top tier. Banning Meta Knight would accomplish nothing in terms of balance.

Banning Meta Knight would:
-Make Falco the best character in the game, and Falco would start dominating tournaments due to countering Dedede and Snake and losing his slight counter in Meta Knight.
-Make Dedede lose a big counter and become the second best character.
-The top tiers would still completely negate over half the cast regardless, especially Snake and Game and Watch.
-Marth would become top tier.

That's it. The metagame of Brawl wouldn't change. We'd just see Falco dominating everything and a Game and Watch occassionally stopping top Falcos from winning.

AKA: "I even gave him the advantage and I still won with MK." I hear from AZ that no one even took matches from you except him. Going from scrub to 2-0 every person in bracket after changing a character is quite the feat good sir.

I was the best player there. That's why I dominated the tournament except when facing another top player. Guess what? That other top player did extremely well and was one hit from winning.

You obviously don't know anything about the ICs. The timing is different for each character, and the highest I've ever seen someone get CGd in tournament was 50%. Hylian is considered one of the best ICs in the country. Know what my record is against his ICs with ROB? 2-0. Don't get grabbed and don't make johns when you get wrecked because you're too bad to avoid their horrible grab range.

I was referring to Dedede with the "one grab and you die" thing. ICs deserve to keep their infinite if it's not used to stall the clock.

The "Top MK" in the NY area was less skilled by a fair margin in comparison to those who placed higher than him. IE. He sucks.

No. Shadow is an extremely good player. He got 1st in teams and has taken sets from other top players.

 

[Tenki]

You obviously don't know anything about the ICs. The timing is different for each character, and the highest I've ever seen someone get CGd in tournament was 50%. Hylian is considered one of the best ICs in the country. Know what my record is against his ICs with ROB? 2-0. Don't get grabbed and don't make johns when you get wrecked because you're too bad to avoid their horrible grab range.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about things like Dedede standing infinite.

 

[LeeHarris]

Yeah, I'm a scrub and not a national class player that has been doing extremely well in tournaments and wins big ones. Oh, wait...

Hey, now we're on the same page! All you've done is place top 10 at a garbage tournament in Florida outside of your crappy region. I'd bet money on you never placing top 10 at any decent national tournament.

Dedede's infinites make several of his matches 100/0 in his favour instead of 80/20. 100/0 shouldn't be allowed to exist.

The problem isn't the fact that they shouldn't be allowed (I think most people agree with us on this), it's that the rule is ridiculously hard to enforce. Do you limit the infinite to 5? What if the guy does 6 and no one is watching? What if he does one and the other player calls foul, but the guy said that he moved slightly forward? You can't enforce rules like that.

 

[Overswarm]

LMAO @ comparing Meta Knight to Akuma and Old Sagat

It's soooo different. Akuma had a move that the game's physics gave no answer to, making him unbeatable. Old Sagat was just plain too good to compete with. Meta Knight actually has a bad match and several even ones.

Meta Knight is the best character in the game and a lot of people win with him.

Why didn't you all cry like little babies when Marth won 99% of all big tournaments because Azen, Mew2King, and Ken all mained Marth in 2007?

Marth had a bad match. It was Sheik. Sheik had bad matches in Fox and Falco. Fox and Falco had bad matches in Marth.

Meta Knight has a bad match. It's Snake. Snake has bad matches in Dedede and Falco. Dedede loses to Meta Knight and Falco. Falco loses to Marth and Game and Watch. Game and Watch loses to Snake and Meta Knight.

Wait a second.

Among the S/top tiers themselves, the game is perfectly balanced. The crappy characters just can't win. They are bottom tiers. They're not supposed to win.

If you ban Meta Knight, Dedede still ***** the bad characters 90/10 and over half the cast is still utterly crippled by Snake, Game and Watch, and the rest of top tier. Banning Meta Knight would accomplish nothing in terms of balance.

Banning Meta Knight would:
-Make Falco the best character in the game, and Falco would start dominating tournaments due to countering Dedede and Snake and losing his slight counter in Meta Knight.
-Make Dedede lose a big counter and become the second best character.
-The top tiers would still completely negate over half the cast regardless, especially Snake and Game and Watch.
-Marth would become top tier.

That's it. The metagame of Brawl wouldn't change. We'd just see Falco dominating everything and a Game and Watch occassionally stopping top Falcos from winning.



I was the best player there. That's why I dominated the tournament except when facing another top player. Guess what? That other top player did extremely well and was one hit from winning.



I was referring to Dedede with the "one grab and you die" thing. ICs deserve to keep their infinite if it's not used to stall the clock.



No. Shadow is an extremely good player. He got 1st in teams and has taken sets from other top players.

Synopsis:

Guys, I'm good now with Metaknight. Don't ban him.

If you do ban him, here are a bunch of things that wouldn't actually happen.

 

[DRaGZ]

Wait...

Banning Meta Knight would make Falco the best character in the game?

Looooooooooool.

And for your information, Meta Knights have been beating Snakes pretty soundly for months now.

 

[LeeHarris]

LMAO @ comparing Meta Knight to Akuma and Old Sagat

It's soooo different. Akuma had a move that the game's physics gave no answer to, making him unbeatable. Old Sagat was just plain too good to compete with. Meta Knight actually has a bad match and several even ones.

Please stop making comparisons that you don't know anything about. The Akuma analogy isn't valid (although it's not far off), but the Old Sagat reference is good. Players in Japan soft banned Old Sagat because he's too good. In America, people still used him because they wanted to win money/reputation. It's the same thing with MK.

Meta Knight is the best character in the game and a lot of people win with him.

Why didn't you all cry like little babies when Marth won 99% of all big tournaments because Azen, Mew2King, and Ken all mained Marth in 2007?

Marth had a bad match. It was Sheik. Sheik had bad matches in Fox and Falco. Fox and Falco had bad matches in Marth.

Meta Knight has a bad match. It's Snake. Snake has bad matches in Dedede and Falco. Dedede loses to Meta Knight and Falco. Falco loses to Marth and Game and Watch. Game and Watch loses to Snake and Meta Knight.

Snake does not have an advantage over MK. It is a common fallacy that seems to be spreading from your region. Any decent MK can get around Snake's grenade camping and punish him once he's off the edge.

Banning Meta Knight would:
-Make Falco the best character in the game, and Falco would start dominating tournaments due to countering Dedede and Snake and losing his slight counter in Meta Knight.
-Make Dedede lose a big counter and become the second best character.
-The top tiers would still completely negate over half the cast regardless, especially Snake and Game and Watch.
-Marth would become top tier.

That's it. The metagame of Brawl wouldn't change. We'd just see Falco dominating everything and a Game and Watch occassionally stopping top Falcos from winning.

No change? Look at this:

Metaknight > All characters in the game

changed to

D3 > Snake > G&W > Falco > D3

Add on top of that the fact that the rest of the top tier has other weaknesses that are easily exploited by the middle/high tier, and you have a much more balanced metagame.

I was the best player there. That's why I dominated the tournament except when facing another top player. Guess what? That other top player did extremely well and was one hit from winning.

If you were the best player there, what does that say about that tournament?

No. Shadow is an extremely good player. He got 1st in teams and has taken sets from other top players.

Like who?

 

[ShadowLink84]

LMAO @ comparing Meta Knight to Akuma and Old Sagat

Really now?

It's soooo different. Akuma had a move that the game's physics gave no answer to, making him unbeatable. Old Sagat was just plain too good to compete with. Meta Knight actually has a bad match and several even ones.

Thats not a comparison all you're doing is stating what we al;ready know and what has been UNPROVEN.
What are MK's bad matchups? Whata re his even ones. To my knowledge, none of them have been proven to be SOLID. You know what I mean yes? That it is very well supported and frankly, there is nothing.

Akuma wrecked everyone not just because he had a move that broke the game. It was part of it but that wasn't just it.

Old Sagat on the other hand is the same as MK.
Damages viability. Gets soft banned in Japan but is not banned in the U.S.

He is on the ropes just like MK. So very good but it isn't clear as to whether or not he is ban worthy.

Meta Knight is the best character in the game and a lot of people win with him.

Why didn't you all cry like little babies when Marth won 99% of all big tournaments because Azen, Mew2King, and Ken all mained Marth in 2007?

Why are you bringing up just big tournaments?
How many large tournaments are held within a single year in comparison to smaller ones. Much less that is for sure.

let alone that if you take into account the entire amount of tournament wins, Marth doesn't dominate to the extent that MK does.
Seriously go and look at the tournament results holistically every now and then,.

Marth had a bad match. It was Sheik. Sheik had bad matches in Fox and Falco. Fox and Falco had bad matches in Marth.

That was not bad.
That was a soft counter.
It was 6:4 65:35 at worst. (some believe 7:3 but meh)
Bad matchup? Since when?
None of the top tiers ever hard countered each other. Hell they just barely did a soft counter.

Meta Knight has a bad match. It's Snake.

This was disproven looooong time ago Inui.
Snake does not counter Metaknight at all.

Snake has bad matches in Dedede and Falco.

No ROB, and Wario and G&W?

Dedede loses to Meta Knight and Falco.

Where is Ness?

Falco loses to Marth and Game and Watch.

Its actually even for Marth I think.
Not sure about G&W.

Game and Watch loses to Snake and Meta Knight.

I think he also doesn't do well against TL.

Wait a second.

Among the S/top tiers themselves, the game is perfectly balanced. The crappy characters just can't win. They are bottom tiers. They're not supposed to win.

Um no.
Say that to Aniki's Link in melee. Or how about X's Sonic?

Bottom tier=/=not winning
bottom tier=overall CHANCES of winning.
A bottom tier character does not ahve such a thing as "not supposed to win" they have a certain CHANCE of winning.
They are bad, but they are not completely devoid ofw inning.
Hell you had Ken ****** with Link during SSB64 and Link was bottom tier.

Or how about Baiken in Guilty Gear?

If you ban Meta Knight, Dedede still ***** the bad characters 90/10 and over half the cast is still utterly crippled by Snake, Game and Watch, and the rest of top tier. Banning Meta Knight would accomplish nothing in terms of balance.

No he dopesn't.
Being top tier doesn't autoamtically meany ou go 90//10 against bottom tier characters.
hell thats never been true. Individual matchups are individual.
DDD has really good matchups OVERALL but individual matchups by themselves don't account for much.

AMetaknight doesn't get countered by anyone. He has no truly bad stages.
he cannot get counterpicked like everyone else below him.
He has no exploit liike everyone else below him.

DDD won't be second best. Marth or Falco would probably be. They have overall better matchups.

Banning Meta Knight would:
-Make Falco the best character in the game, and Falco would start dominating tournaments due to countering Dedede and Snake and losing his slight counter in Meta Knight.
-Make Dedede lose a big counter and become the second best character.
-The top tiers would still completely negate over half the cast regardless, especially Snake and Game and Watch.
-Marth would become top tier.

Um Marth says hi.
Falco would not start dominating tournaments. Or if he does, nowhere near the degree that Metaknight dominates. He has exploits, weaknesses, can be counterpicked.
DDD doesn't lose a big counter. Hell MK doesn't even hard counter him.
MK is the only one who is completely unaffected by counterpicking.

That's it. The metagame of Brawl wouldn't change. We'd just see Falco dominating everything and a Game and Watch occassionally stopping top Falcos from winning.

NO we wouldn't. Hell Falco doesn't even have as good amtchups as MK. He gets CP'ed. He doesn't constrict the viability of many characters.
He is not going to be anywhere near in terms of domination that MK has.

Alot of what you say is really outdated and not true at all.

 

[Justblaze647]

Synopsis:

Guys, I'm good now with Metaknight. Don't ban him.

If you do ban him, here are a bunch of things that wouldn't actually happen.

This seems to be the running argument now with all the anti-ban supporters...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Overswarm needs to have my babies.
Hell I'll have his babies.

Made me laugh he did.

Spoiler

No homo

 

[Tenki]

This seems to be the running argument now with all the anti-ban supporters...

Except it's not an argument.


lol actually, I just wanted to say

"Except it's not a"

in reference to the first link my sig.
It's more of an implied personal attack than it is an argument `.`;

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except it's not an argument.

Yes it is...

Spoiler

According to some person

 

[adumbrodeus]

LMAO @ comparing Meta Knight to Akuma and Old Sagat

It's soooo different. Akuma had a move that the game's physics gave no answer to, making him unbeatable. Old Sagat was just plain too good to compete with. Meta Knight actually has a bad match and several even ones.

Ok, what are Mk's bad match-ups?

Meta Knight has a bad match. It's Snake. Snake has bad matches in Dedede and Falco. Dedede loses to Meta Knight and Falco. Falco loses to Marth and Game and Watch. Game and Watch loses to Snake and Meta Knight.

If Snake has an advantage against MK, then MK doesn't know how to space...

MK has better range, speed, rushdown, and gimping ability by far in this match-up.

Sure, Snake kills better, but it doesn't matter if his kills require MK to be a considerably worse player OR for them both to be on a low enough level to not be spacing properly.

Banning Meta Knight would:
-Make Falco the best character in the game, and Falco would start dominating tournaments due to countering Dedede and Snake and losing his slight counter in Meta Knight.
-Make Dedede lose a big counter and become the second best character.
-The top tiers would still completely negate over half the cast regardless, especially Snake and Game and Watch.
-Marth would become top tier.

That's it. The metagame of Brawl wouldn't change. We'd just see Falco dominating everything and a Game and Watch occassionally stopping top Falcos from winning.

The problem is, except Marth, all those characters have counters (generally both hard and soft).

Because MK is in a considerably better position then any of the other chars, instead of being a close top, he's a massively dominating top.

More indicitive of the fact that moderate level MKs are able to keep high-leveled players of other characters out of the final rounds (hence, Snake's dominance as second, without spacing ability, Mk loses, so considerably more Snakes reach the final round on average).

The metagame would be similar, but far more balanced.

Snake does not have an advantage over MK. It is a common fallacy that seems to be spreading from your region. Any decent MK can get around Snake's grenade camping and punish him once he's off the edge.

Hey! Don't knock NY, we don't all make this dumb mistake.

Seriously though, we had the same issue with people thinking Marth was trash for a while.

Its actually even for Marth I think.

I noticed this, so I have to point it out.

60-40, accepted by both boards.

Once Marth gets through Falco's laser camping, he safely outranges Falco, and falco simply doesn't have the spacing tools to close the gap and move it to ultra-short range.

Synopsis:

Guys, I'm good now with Metaknight. Don't ban him.

If you do ban him, here are a bunch of things that wouldn't actually happen.

ROLF

Overswarm, you're awesome.

 

[Justblaze647]

Yes it is...

Spoiler

According to some person

According to some persons...s...s...sssssssssssssssss...

 

[ShadowLink84]

okay thank you Adumbrodeus. I keep seeing things switch so its rather difficult to keep on top of things.

@justblaze: Too many S'

 

[Inui]

Hey, now we're on the same page! All you've done is place top 10 at a garbage tournament in Florida outside of your crappy region. I'd bet money on you never placing top 10 at any decent national tournament.

Really now?

Recent tournaments:

Harry Potter and the Planking Meta Knight, October 4th

Crews:
1: Enemy Controller (Inui, Atomsk, BlackWaltz, Ryoko, teh_spamerer)
2: Dumb Crew (xzax, Vex, Keitaro, Yes!, UltimaScout)
3: Zodiac Braves (Pierce7d, Umbra, Munk, Ryko, bschung)
4: S.W.R.
5: Cobra
5: Blue Business

Bye
Defeated S.W.R.
Defeated Zodiac Braves
Defeated Dumb Crew


Doubles:
1: Lolis are Amazing (Inui and Atomsk)
2: Donkey Kong Country (Bum and NinjaLink)
3: Wes and Dire
4: The Map! (Ryoko and Snakeee)
5: Sonazaki Twins (teh_spamerer and Lord Knight)
5: Konata and Magus (MasterDaveNo1 and Magus420)
7: Diem and Ether (dmbrandon and Turbo Ether)
7: spam sucks (Yes! and Tec0)
9: iCarly
9: team melee
9: Black N Blue
9: xzax and Vex
13: Ussi and Doom
13: Doritto Royale
13: Thunderpunch
13: John and Min
17: Keitaro and Eazy
17: Diplomats
17: Landmaster
17: rj and ryko
17: Team Random
17: Peach Tea
17: M2K Please Don't Sue
17: Pope and Walnut
25: Cobra
25: scope and scorp

Bye
Defeated Doritto Royale, 2-0
Defeated Black N Blue, 2-0
Defeated Wes and Dire, 2-1
Defeated Donkey Kong Country, 3-1
Lost to Donkey Kong Country, 2-3
Defeated Donkey Kong Country, 3-1


Singles:
1: teh_spamerer (Meta Knight)
2: Inui (Meta Knight)
3: Bum (Donkey Kong)
4: Atomsk (Dedede)
5: Snakeee (Zero Suit Samus)
5: NinjaLink (Diddy Kong, R.O.B., Marth)
7: ksizzle (Dedede)
7: Keitaro (Falco)
9: BlackWaltz
9: Yes!
9: Eazy
9: Vex
13: ChromePirate
13: rookie
13: Konata
13: iKon
17: Kai
17: Blue
17: Gunblade
17: N
17: Cable
17: Munk
17: xzax
17: Will
25: Rule34
25: bschung
25: AAAA
25: UltimaScout
25: x-o
25: Magus
25: JG Wentworth
25: Alzureo
33: Pierce7d
33: umbra
33: Walnut
33: Alex
33: Bolas
33: theDoom
33: Mr. Ryu
33: Knightmare
33: ErickGM14
33: Ussi
33: Mojo
33: ebo
33: AC
33: rj
33: Warm Soda
33: Purp
49: PRiDE
49: Pope
49: Benzaa
49: Boss
49: Lt. Dan
49: ryko
49: Punishment Devine
49: Kevin
49: Zeebz
49: Ahmer
49: scope
49: Poop
49: PKYMN
49: joker
49: Bleachigo
49: SS762
65: scarp
65: Diem
65: Bouse
65: Steve
65: Eclipse
65: Lous Soul
97: Ninja Edd

Bye
Defeated Bleachigo, 2-0
Defeated Rule34, 2-0
Defeated iKon, 2-0
Defeated BlackWaltz, 2-1
Lost to Bum, 0-2
Defeated NinjaLink, 2-0
Defeated Atomsk, 2-0
Defeated Bum, 3-2
Forfeit to teh_spamerer


Bum's Weekly, NY, October 10th

Doubles: (1st and 2nd split)
1: Two Loaves of Bread Hugging (Inui and Atomsk)
2: Bum and Snakeee
3: Team A (Blackanese and BlackWaltz)
4: Get Tight (NinjaLink and D1)
5: Godot and Malcom
5: Dreamland Sausages (Jman and Basic Sausage)
7: A Boy and His Toy
7: Jersey All Day (Keitaro and Eazy)
9: D-tails
9: PRiDE and Izumi
9: 5.6
9: Barack McCain
13: Clowning Around
13: HaHa You Lose

Bye
Defeated D-tails, 2-0
Defeated Dreamland Sausages, 2-1
Defeated Team A, 3-2
Bum and Snakeee forfeit, split


Singles: (1st and 2nd split)
1: Bum (Donkey Kong)
2: Snakeee (Zero Suit Samus)
3: BlackWaltz (Olimar)
4: NinjaLink (Diddy Kong, ROB, Toon Link, Random LOL)
5: Atomsk (Dedede)
5: Inui (Meta Knight)
7: Basic Sausage (Dedede)
7: PRiDE (Yoshi)
9: Izumi
9: Eazy
9: Jman
9: Godot
13: D1
13: Keitaro
13: Blackanese
13: Malcom
17: Rockin
17: Span
17: Projo
17: Moo
17: Anziath
17: Dav3
17: Ron
17: Vanz
25: Anti
25: DMT
25: Crismas
25: Knightmare
25: Homalon
25: Jtails
25: Khanti
25: Diakhu
33: Alex
33: Ace163
33: Xiuls

Bye
Defeated Anti, 2-0
Defeated Malcom, 2-1
Defeated BlackWaltz, 2-1
Lost to Snakeee, 0-2
Forfeit to NinjaLink


NJ Blue Battle Circuit Event #1, October 11th

Doubles:
1: Inui and Atomsk
2: DaPuffster and Vex
3: ChiboSempai and Rouge Pit
4: Diem and Ether
5: JBAndrew and Wyatt
5: Mr. Clutch and Vajaja
7: Bschung and Blue
7: Doom and UltimaScout
9: Cyanide and Orion

Bye
Defeated Doom and UltimaScout, 2-0
Defeated ChiboSempai and Rogue Pit, 2-1
Defeated DaPuffster and Vex, 3-1
Defeated DaPuffster and Vex, 3-0


Singles:
1: Atomsk (Dedede, Meta Knight, Lucario)
2: Inui (Meta Knight, Snake)
3: DaPuffster (Diddy Kong, Jigglypuff)
4: Pierce7d (Marth)
5: Bschung (Dedede)
5: Blue (Sonic)
7: Vajaja (Game and Watch)
7: Blackwaltz (Olimar)
9: Orion
9: Rouge Pit
9: Wyatt
9: Vex Kasrani
13: ChiboSempai
13: Rob
13: Pride
13: Chill
17: RJ
17: Doom
17: Dusk
17: Mr. Clutch
17: Kai
17: JB Andrew
17: Ulitma Scout
17: Shippo
25: Cyanide
25: GdDmt

Bye
Defeated RJ, 2-0
Defeated Vex Kasrani, 2-1
Defeated Pierce7d, 2-0
Lost to Atomsk, 2-3
Defeated DaPuffster, 3-0
Split sets with Atomsk, Split the prize.


Season's Beatings III, October 18, Ohio

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight
2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit
3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong
4: Dook - Snake/Lucario
5: Joey Fury - Snake
5: Quivo - Toon Link
7: Coma - Diddy Kong
7: Black Guile - Marth
9: Delta Punk
9: Sonic the Hedgedawg
9: McWooty
9: Tyr
13: Frame
13: Flackside
13: Pyro
13: Dad
17: Noel Brown
17: Kaj09
17: Mom
17: Thekiest
17: Lil Negrito
17: Master WGS
17: Tatsumi
17: t3hcount
25: Laoshu
25: Mindin
25: Kuroh
25: Pirin
25: Tarzan
25: Mr. J
25: Mike Arroyo
25: Virt
33: t-800
33: Jelli
33: Kyle Wahula
33: Doc
33: Clembo
33: Caps Indigo
33: Rune Kai
33: Green Thang
33: E_
33: Soulpech
33: Blood Kriby
33: Scythe Mu
33: Omega
33: King
33: EV
33: J Money
49: Kaz
49: Keits
49: Harmonic Tunes
49: Rakae
49: Clubberlang
49: Jio
49: JackG
49: Isiah Brannon
49: Ibanez Ninja
49: Dijon
49: Akira
49: VC
49: KarateLincoln
49: Tiggy
49: Pdiamond
65: JC
65: Vandy
65: Evan
65: Todd Ryujin

Bye
Defeated Mike Arroyo, 2-0
Defeated Frame, 2-0
Defeated Tatsumi, 2-0
Defeated Coma, 2-0
Defeated Quivo, 2-0
Defeated AlphaZealot, 3-2
Split with Forward


I can see my Mew2King says a lot of you have no idea what you're talking about. This is a joke of a debate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Big *** List.

What does this prove again?

Do me a favor and stop handpicking your results. Take the results from this entire year please rather than THIS MONTH.

Don't accuse anyone of not knowing anythnig when you yourself are committing the same behavior.

And I don't care for M2K. His argument is what matters not the fact that he is M2K.

 

[LeeHarris]

Really now?

Recent tournaments:

diarrhea

I can see my Mew2King says a lot of you have no idea what you're talking about. This is a joke of a debate.

So you've won a couple scrub-filled tournaments (some of those I recognize maybe one name) and didn't win any where there was even one or two decent players? Dag yo!

And M2K is the worst debater in the history of Smash. In fact, he has been helping OS and I, especially in the SBR, because when he posts it is so ridiculous that it gives us tons of credibility.

 

[Inui]

What does this prove again?

Do me a favor and stop handpicking your results. Take the results from this entire year please rather than THIS MONTH.

And I don't care for M2K. His argument is what matters not the fact that he is M2K.

Oh, it was proving Lee wrong about me not being able to place high at big events.

Entire year? I specifically said "recent tournaments" but I do have a really large archive with other good results.

I'd say the best player in the world would know more things than everyone else for the most part, but okay. He made a thread talking all about MK's weaknesses and it's all correct.

So you've won a couple scrub-filled tournaments (some of those I recognize maybe one name) and didn't win any where there was even one or two decent players? Dag yo!

Wtf is wrong with you?

Bum = best DK.
NinjaLink = best Diddy.
Atomsk = top Dedede that has taken sets from Forte, ChuDat, NEO, and other top players.
teh_spamerer = amazing Smash player.
Forward = Melee legend.
AlphaZealot = easily the second best Diddy.

Idiot. What tournaments have you won?

You seem to not even know anything about top players from other regions.