Lee Harris: Inui has accomplished more than you in Melee and Brawl. Its sad to see you try to demean his results. You haven't ever even traveled out of state.
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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LeeHarris
Smash Lord
There's a huge difference between events with good players and big events. I can round up 100 scrubs and 2-0 them all. Should I pat myself on the back? You get a boner from beating on noobs and say you're a top player. Please travel outside your region soon!
M2K is extremely biased on his side so of course he is going to try his hardest and exaggerate things. Do you know how many times he has complained about being cheated out of money? He has even PMd people and said he hopes MK doesn't get banned because he deserves to win money.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
No one cares so why bother addressing sucha c hallenge
Um no **** sherlock otherwise, I wouldn't make the response I did.
I said provide an ENTIRE YEAR worth of results rather than the RECENT results.
I have a gpa of 4.0, ergo, I must be smarter than you., Wait no that doesn't work.
Again big ****ing deal if he is the best **** player in the world.
Its the ARGUMENT that he puts forth thats most important, the points he make.
Hell I guess we shouldn't overlook and attempt to disprove Stephen Hawkings cause he is the best scientist in the world! I mean, what he says MUST be true.
Frankly I am just starting to lose patience with these arguments.
People really need to get off M2K's ****. (and I rarely say such a thing)
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
You are starting to sound like a M2K nut-hugger
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
justblaze be nice. but frankly, people are giving M2K waaaay to much credit just because he is one of the best out there.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Haha, hypocrisy at it's finest. Why do I have to have a better record than someone to point out their win record isn't significant in this argument? Yet you go off and try to insult me (as if it affects me in the LEAST bit). You are a shining example of your side's broken logic.
You sure are getting worked up. Can't handle knowing that your accomplishments aren't special?
At any of the tournaments where those players attended (except AZ/Forward, who have been to like 3 Brawl tournaments), YOU LOST. Congrats on making yourself look stupid!
Overswarm
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Inui has placed higher than most people could, but he's no powerhouse. He's not awful, but he's not amazing either.
What interests me in the difference between his success with other characters and then his sudden rise with Metaknight.
What interests me in the difference between his success with other characters and then his sudden rise with Metaknight.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Two loaves of bread. Ahh thats an awesome name to use.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Welcome to the heart of the debate...
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
He has a better chance of having the correct POV then the average player.
The problem is... he doesn't know how to argue the point, so we CANNOT take it as gosple.
It's a minor point in favor of the anti-ban camp, and is mostly negated by the fact that he has a conflict of interest (regardless of whether or not he's doing it intentionally, he doesn't want to make his MK practice worthless, and that will color his perceptions).
Beyond that, it's not really worth bringing up. It is what it is, it doesn't really change the nature of the issue. M2K's sayso doesn't change the fact that a lot of debate and evidence is required to come to any legitimate conclusion.
Whether Inui's accomplishments are meritorious doesn't matter, at all.
All this serves to do is degrade the discussion to the personal level, which solves nothing.
As far as this is concerned, it doesn't really matter if Inui is the best player on the planet. That doesn't mean anything as far as the discussion is concerned. All that matter is his arguments.
There is only one use for Inui's results, noting how much he rose after he picked up MK, which is circumstantial evidence, at best, but combined with others might show a larger trend.
Overswarm
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This isn't a debate. This is a constant series of observations with one side desperately clinging to Metaknight out of pride, principle, or fear.
Samochan
Smash Master
Um, you know that brawl hasn't been playable for a whole year right? A bit over half a year in usa.
Just stating the obvious here that you obviously forgot.
Consistently placing top 2 and one top 5 in big tourneys is pretty good, not forgetting teams performance.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Oh it matters. He says that MK isn't a problem and he shows the results of a NYC tournament. The problem is there are no good MKs in NYC. They are completely relevant to this argument.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually I want him too provide a years worth of results. In short for him to wait until after December then post all the results and provide the entire year.Um, you know that brawl hasn't been playable for a whole year right? A bit over half a year in usa.
Just stating the obvious here that you obviously forgot.
The main point was not to go with recent rankings cause it isn't enough.
=p
And I also forgot. BACKPEDALING FTW
I forget what this is responding to exactly help please?
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
Alphinuilot logic?
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Does Meta Knight have any bad matchups?
No (Snake v MK is debatable)
Is he beatable?
Yes
So does this constitute a banning of him?
Simple low placing players can't just pick him up and instantly be good and beatable. There are plenty of Meta Knight mains who aren't even that good. If MK was so amazing that he should be banned, wouldn't everyone who plays him have an automatic advantage that should give them an easy win? Nope, that's just not how it works. He actually takes skill like other characters.
No (Snake v MK is debatable)
Is he beatable?
Yes
So does this constitute a banning of him?
Simple low placing players can't just pick him up and instantly be good and beatable. There are plenty of Meta Knight mains who aren't even that good. If MK was so amazing that he should be banned, wouldn't everyone who plays him have an automatic advantage that should give them an easy win? Nope, that's just not how it works. He actually takes skill like other characters.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The amount of skill required to use a character doesn't mean anything sempai.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I was refering to his PERSONAL standings. Not the standings of the tournament overall.
NYC's population of good MK players is very relevant, but the discussion got sidetracked to Inui's personal standings.
I'm just pointing out that they don't really matter except as part of a larger trend which cannot be gauged by a single player.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
You ask one simple question, provide an answer, and pass that off as an argument for your side?
It's not that MK is so easy that you can pick him up and instantly wreck shop, it's that when two players around the same level play, the MK player will ALWAYS have the advantage for several reasons:
1. No need to use several chars because there are no counters to MK.
2. No need to ever change characters or worry about counter picks because MK has no bad stages.
3. MK has no bad matchups.
So while Sethlon has an amazing Falco and he is clearly superior to me, I used MK in tournament and won because not only is my character superior to his, but there is no possible stage he can counterpick me to. It's sad when a top tier stands no chance against another top tier.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
this thread isn't going anywhere
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
its cause Sethlon SUCKS!
Can I ask what happened in the matchup exactly?
How much did you win by?
Also, did you ban green greens?
Just kidding he has an amazing Falco
Can I ask what happened in the matchup exactly?
How much did you win by?
Also, did you ban green greens?
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
So I assume you've run out of arguments. It's going somewhere, actually. The folks against the ban continue to post arguments and the side for the ban continues to counter them. We are really just waiting for the next one to surface.
I don't ever ban anything except Corneria against Snake. MK has no bad stages, just stages he doesn't **** quite so hard on.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Okay thank you ^_^
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I wasn't really arguing in the first place
EDIT - I've just noticed like, 234433456676 small fights between 23049293452384238624 different people in this thread
EDIT - I've just noticed like, 234433456676 small fights between 23049293452384238624 different people in this thread
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Does MK really have no bad matchups?
How do you know that?
How do you know that?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Because every match-up we've analyzed beyond a mirror match has been disadvantagious to the opposing character or neutral (and those have been 55-45: MK match-ups).
Unless you found something that changes that, there's a reason why it the community's concensus.
Actually there are claims that Bowser, Olimar, Zamus and Snake are neutral. These players happen to be on the highest level of skill (m2k, atomsk, teh_spamerer) but are disregarded. Not because they are wrong but bc most of these ppl are to whiney / stupid to check it themselves
Who knows, whether Bowsers release CG makes this match-up neutral, if nobody uses Bowser and just says:"Bowser sux lolololol"...
Overswarm
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I have played with Kishsquared and Sliq, two Bowser mains, many times. I have played the friendly Bowsers of Dr. X and Quivo.
Bowser does not counter Metaknight in any way, shape, or form.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Claims are claims.
M2K, atomsk, teh_spamerer can all turn blue saying so and so is neutral if they DO NOT PROVIDE THE POINTS FOR THEIR ARGUMENT.
The burden of proof does not lay on me.
I use Sonic I don't use Bowser, Olimar, Zamus adn Snake. Let alone that I won't be able to use them at a notable level of skill for a good amount of time.
As such it falls upon those who make the claim to prove it not the other way around.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Firstly, we all know that M2K has issues with putting points across, that's why he gets disreguarded.
Snake, we repudiated that claim several times in this thread... with frame data. Snake kills early, that's about all he has. All MK has to do is outspace him and he's pretty much done.
Olimar... no, he's far to gimpable. The only creditable claim is on Shadow Moses... which is banned. Olimar mains consider MK a counter (generally 65/35-70-30) for a good reason.
Bowser simply doesn't have the stage control and can't get MK into his grab range comfortably. It's not enough for the same reason IC's deathgrab doesn't make them beat MK, it's impractical. Sure, he doesn't suck, but with the exception of the tethers, Yoshi, and DDD... you're not going to see MKs getting grabbed if something develops that shows it's a massive disadvantage.
ZSamus is possible, I don't know the character well enough to be sure, I'll check.
Regardless, a neutral or two will not change the situation.
None of these are - as players - as good as the top EC players I mentioned
Side note: Quivo is way better than he was just two months ago, he plays completely differently.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Bowser mains tend to be better than people who don't main Bowser.
Natch
Smash Ace
I love how Inui COMPLETLY IGNORED when me and LeeHarris refuted his "This is one tournament" argument and contintinued as if nothing occured.
Read the post above this then the post itself: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5645929#post5645929
In the 2nd post, the 2nd quote block is from LeeHarris. This means Inui read the whole post, but did not even bother MENTIONING that his point had been countered. He did not even attempt a counter argument. For all intents and purposes, this means he admits he is wrong. But he refuses to even acknowledge he was proven wrong. Not even a short blurb of "I concede this point."
Inui, you can be a smash god and have the worst debating skills ever. You know Yuna? He is far from the best player out there, but good luck beating him in a debate. Thus, I ignore your post count, the color of your name, and your join date when reading your posts. They do not matter to an induvidual post.
Consider it like a tier list. The lower join dates, the special colors of a name, and the higher post counts are generally higher on the tier list. Your induvidual posts can be considered matchups, in the sense that good matchups means a good tier ranking. However, when it comes to each induvidual matchup-or post-the tier list means squat.
Inui, you are not a god, and you make screw ups too. If you're refuted, man up to it.
Read the post above this then the post itself: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5645929#post5645929
In the 2nd post, the 2nd quote block is from LeeHarris. This means Inui read the whole post, but did not even bother MENTIONING that his point had been countered. He did not even attempt a counter argument. For all intents and purposes, this means he admits he is wrong. But he refuses to even acknowledge he was proven wrong. Not even a short blurb of "I concede this point."
Inui, you can be a smash god and have the worst debating skills ever. You know Yuna? He is far from the best player out there, but good luck beating him in a debate. Thus, I ignore your post count, the color of your name, and your join date when reading your posts. They do not matter to an induvidual post.
Consider it like a tier list. The lower join dates, the special colors of a name, and the higher post counts are generally higher on the tier list. Your induvidual posts can be considered matchups, in the sense that good matchups means a good tier ranking. However, when it comes to each induvidual matchup-or post-the tier list means squat.
Inui, you are not a god, and you make screw ups too. If you're refuted, man up to it.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Let me correct Shadowlink.
Bowser mains tend to be better then non-bowser mains at understanding his match-ups.
You can now respond to the point.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Bowser mains tend to use Bowser better than non Bowser mains and understand the matchup better.
Apologies.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Being a good player does not mean that you understand the match-up or can argue it well.
That's an Ad hominem logic fallacy, the points of the debate do not take into account how good a player is, only the information.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
M2K is among the best players but when he tries to make a point he does the equivalent of "Cause I said so".
Again people really need to get off the idea that good player=good argument.
If I main Sonic and I wreck an MK. I cannot state Sonic is a counter to MK without validating my points.
I may be the best but it doesn't mean what I say is true.
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