The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[da K.I.D.]

thats messed up OS...
i cant disagree with it really, but yea, harsh

and @danGR, i accept your apology, lol

 

[Snakeee]

Yeah, at that tourney M2K was just talking about that Bum won, I split with him. And I 3 stocked Inui's Metaknight first round of our match in winners semis and he had to switch to Marth (where he came much closer to winning). Not to brag, but now I feel like I really need to prove that Meta isn't unbeatable.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Those stages are still better if you want to fight MK.

Those stages don't spell death for MK



Snake has four.

Final Destination, nothing is going to get in your way here and your camp game.

Yoshi's Island Brawl, Like Final Destination, only the tilting platform above, which won't get in the way of your tilts if you hide under it, or set up mines.

Corneria, low ceiling and close blast lines on the sides make Snake a happy guy.

Green Greens, Low Ceiling, not much room for aerial combat, tornado needs to stay in one place or risk hitting bombs.

I'm not exactly sure that a low ceiling is a bad thing for MK sure he will die sooner but MK is light and snakes Utilt already kills him at a really low percent.

I also doubt that tornado is that effective on snake to begin with seeing as he can just pull out a grenade and stop it. Not being able to use it in green greens isn't such a bad thing no one has ever said that its the tornado that makes him broken.

Close boards help MK as well his Nair actually starts killing instead of just gimping. accomplishes the same goal but snake doesn't really get gimped to badly by MK so now his move killing instead is actually a good thing.

FD has nothing to get in his way of camping but it also has nothing to defend him with either. Grenade camping seems a lot more effective when you have platforms around you because that way you have more room to cover your self with snakes mines.

edit: even snakeee is using MK is beatable so he shouldn't be banned as an argument now? The pro-ban has already admitted to him having the ability to take damage and die.

 

[memphischains]

w/ snakee - he's not. people just need to stop being whines and TRY and play him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You could have saved yourself some time and wrote:

"You are bad at this game and your region sucks. My region is better and even though I win I do bad a lot so that means Metaknight isn't broken. Also I taught every player everything, they just copied me."

Way to nitpick and not look at his post as a whole.

 

[salaboB]

Yeah, at that tourney M2K was just talking about that Bum won, I split with him. And I 3 stocked Inui's Metaknight first round of our match in winners semis and he had to switch to Marth (where he came much closer to winning). Not to brag, but now I feel like I really need to prove that Meta isn't unbeatable.

You'll still have to deal with my latest point, which has been entirely uncountered so far. (To be fair, I saw someone else say it and I liked it so I adopted it as well. Nobody countered their use of it, either.)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not exactly sure that a low ceiling is a bad thing for MK sure he will die sooner but MK is light and snakes Utilt already kills him at a really low percent.

If his Utilt can kill at 75% minimum.

I also doubt that tornado is that effective on snake to begin with seeing as he can just pull out a grenade and stop it. Not being able to use it in green greens isn't such a bad thing no one has ever said that its the tornado that makes him broken.

It isn't broken, it's still a good move for racking up damage.

In Snake case, it doesn't work well when he can escape quite easily.

Close boards help MK as well his Nair actually starts killing instead of just gimping. accomplishes the same goal but snake doesn't really get gimped to badly by MK so now his move killing instead is actually a good thing.

It may help MK with gimping/early kills, if he actually can gimp Snake, but Snake is going to have a much easier time killing him with his harder hitting moves.

FD has nothing to get in his way of camping but it also has nothing to defend him with either. Grenade camping seems a lot more effective when you have platforms around you because that way you have more room to cover your self with snakes mines.

It's still a good place to mortar slide, set up mines, and chuck grenades. Platforms would have been better, like smash ville and battlefield, but the size of the stage, like the blast lines, seem to work better in Snakes favor.

edit: I need sleep, I'll post once in the mornign before I go to school.

 

[ftl]

SBRers flaming makes me sad. Doesn't look like there's much chance of M2K or OS persuading each other, based on that exchange.

Ah well, here's to hoping that whatever decision ends up being made is a good one.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

today around noon a few people from the SBR kind of discredited M2K it seems like OS just followed up on what they where talking about.

 

[aeghrur]

Way to nitpick and not look at his post as a whole.

More of a flaming summary instead of nitpicking if anything.

 

[choknater]

Mew2King provided a really freaking strong argument that time. OS is that really all you can say? That it was an attack on your region?

He's trying to bring up examples that counteract yours. I'd do this too, but obviously M2K has experienced them himself. Is that really all you can say lol.

 

[Tenki]

I find it hilarious that we give you guys the moon and you look at it with a microscope.

fixed.
10sbr's

edit: anyone get it? SBR weekly character discussions? D;

Well, I thought it was funny, considering the irony of... it all.

 

[Mew2King]

up tilt kills at 85% with no DI (actually high 84s). Don't use training mode, it's different than vs Mode by 5% (although most tests will show about a ~6% knockback difference depending on the move of course, it was programmed to be different because sakurai is gay)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well to me it sounded like a bunch of flaming as well but I was able to find a few contradictions in his attack so I'm pretty sure OS could do better just didn't really feel like it.

You really need to stop acting like Inui sucks or something, he managed to get 5th at FAST1 using Snake, and 9th at CH3 even though he lost to me and then had a loss to LK because of a suicide. He is not a bad player. NL has beaten me 2-0 in a set, Forte in set (didn't watch that one), 2-0d infernoOmni in a set including 2 stocking him at mid % one game, and the one game Azen tried MK vs him Azen almost got 2 stocked, while as his Lucario won 3 out of 4 games

He never said Inui sucks all he said was that he picked up a character for about a week and he was able to beat people stronger than him. You even said it your self NJ 2-0 you in a set beat forte in a set and almost 2 stocked azen. Could Inui 2-0 you? I really doubt it even people in the anti-ban group agree that even though he is a good player he isn't at the level of the people he beat at his tournament.

A few weeks ago diddy was thought to be a soft counter against MK but now because of what happened it seems all that really had to happen was MK's learn the match up better just like what happened with Snake when he used to counter MK.

 

[Rocann]

edit: even snakeee is using MK is beatable so he shouldn't be banned as an argument now? The pro-ban has already admitted to him having the ability to take damage and die.

This is the quote of the thread. YES he's beatable!

There has never really been argument for this long over whether or not to ban a character. Not in any fighting game I've ever seen, except old sagat but that somehow got settled by that soft ban which just wouldn't work in this case. Everything Praxis said in his thread makes sense and the game he described is much more exciting, enjoyable, and BALANCED than the MKfest that Brawl is becoming, regardless of whether he can be beaten.

 

[Mew2King]

there was no learning the matchup better, inui beat NL once by a fluke, but NL beat many other better MKs. The last tourney had Snakeee 3 stock inuis MK then inui almost won with marth, him split with bum for first, and inui/atomsk got 5th, ninjalink got 4th, i forget who got 3rd it might have been Dire but i don't remember.

not to discredit inui, he's a good very experienced player but hes not on inferoomni, me, forte or AZEN's level, (ninja link 2-0d all of us, i did not watch the set vs forte but i do know that he beat InfernoOmni by 2 stock mid % one game, the other one is on youtube, and he beat Azen's MK by 1 stock really low %, although Azen's Lucario won 3 games and only lost 1 that set which went to 5 matches) and matchup experience had nothing to do this this instance,. NL has beaten and lost to greg by a big amount, and the same with chu. In fact, I beat NL in 10 friendlies in a row the day after esticle, I'm pretty sure he's just inconsistent, and I know many ppl that know NL well will tell you the same thing.

i still think snake has a more than even matchup with MK, but most players don't play him right, so why when i went to fast1 was i forced to change to DDD 3 times (stayed DDD the last set cuz i won the 4th game of winners finals by 2 stock when i swiched, despite not using DDD hardly at all that day, and constantly using MK the entire time [if I had to guess I'd say like 98% of the day I used MK, constantly playing friendlies], vs hrnuts snake, afros snake, and reflex's wario.

There is already way more info out there for MK than there is for any other character and the primary cause of that comes down to his popularity which is cased from tourney results and ease of use, if it was an equivalent amount for the other characters then I ASSURE you it would be MUCH closer than anyone here thinks.

 

[CR4SH]

M2K -- This got lost in spam, but your thinking on it might be interesting:

So, don't know what you think about that. Your line seems to be that he can be taken down at the top levels of ability, but at the top skill levels isn't where the majority of tournaments (Or sources of money at the big ones) ever reach.

I agree with this like 10 times. It's nice to say that at the highest levels of play MK is almost even with alot of characters. Thats neato. But anywhere from mid-high where like EVERYONE who plays tournament smash sits, meta is RIDICULOUS. If you're any good at this game, at all, you can pretty much **** people with MK. That's not the case for any other character. He's not that broken at the very top, but in the middle, he most certainly is.

Why is this important? You may ask. How does that even apply to the tournament as a whole?

It's true, that as an argument against meta being anti-competitive, it's very weak. But the reason it's an important argument can be summed up in one word: Attendance. If everyone but M2K, Azen, DSF and the like is completely frustrated by the dearth of metas at any tournament, sooner or later, there will be no tournaments for meta to dominate.

"GIT GUD!" "No Johns" "Learn to ****ing play a meta, duh". All valid points. However, for every hour I spend learning how to fight against a meta, that meta could spend learning how to fight as a meta. Which do you think gets you closer to winning the match?

So for those of us who don't dedicate our life (or at least every moment of our free time) to smash, or just aren't as good as the elite players. Meta is broken as hell.

Just for reference. Yes I attend tournaments on a fairly regular basis. Yes I play a character that gets ***** to **** by meta. No I don't win tournaments. And no, I don't think that meta really HAS to be banned. I think, however, that this game would be much more fun to compete at, if there were no metaknight. And how much FUN tournaments are, almost exclusively, detirmines whether or not there are tournaments at all.

You could have saved yourself some time and wrote:

"You are bad at this game and your region sucks. My region is better and even though I win I do bad a lot so that means Metaknight isn't broken. Also I taught every player everything, they just copied me."

ROFL!

fixed.
10sbr's

edit: anyone get it? SBR weekly character discussions? D;

Well, I thought it was funny, considering the irony of... it all.

ROFLMAO!

 

[fkacyan]

You could have saved yourself some time and wrote:

"You are bad at this game and your region sucks. My region is better and even though I win I do bad a lot so that means Metaknight isn't broken. Also I taught every player everything, they just copied me."

NEEEEEEEERD RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

In all seriousness, OS... Weak. Ad hominem is one of the signs of a fallacious argument.

EDIT: @above people - Bans are for high levels of play, not for people like you and me who go to losers round one and two. Only the money and top placements influence bans.

 

[The Real Inferno]

If we're going to be taking Logic 101 into this argument, Samurai Panda, Overswarm and M2K failed long ago then. There's a logical fallacy in nearly every post being made here even. XD

 

[choknater]

Lol, irrelevant perhaps, but I think the community itself (and organization) dictates the amount of fun somebody will have at a tournament, not the gameplay.

 

[Overswarm]

In all seriousness, OS... Weak. Ad hominem is one of the signs of a fallacious argument.

And what would you call his posts to me? -_^

Besides, he posted nothing new.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

there was no learning the matchup better, inui beat NL once by a fluke, but NL beat many other better MKs. The last tourney had Snakeee 3 stock inuis MK then inui almost won with marth, him split with bum for first, and inui/atomsk got 5th, ninjalink got 4th, i forget who got 3rd it might have been Dire but i don't remember.

not to discredit inui, he's a good very experienced player but hes not on inferoomni, me, forte or AZEN's level, (ninja link 2-0d all of us, i did not watch the set vs forte but i do know that he beat InfernoOmni by 2 stock mid % one game, the other one is on youtube, and he beat Azen's MK by 1 stock really low %, although Azen's Lucario won 3 games and only lost 1 that set which went to 5 matches) and matchup experience had nothing to do this this instance,. NL has beaten and lost to greg by a big amount, and the same with chu. In fact, I beat NL in 10 friendlies in a row the day after esticle, I'm pretty sure he's just inconsistent, and I know many ppl that know NL well will tell you the same thing.

i still think snake has a more than even matchup with MK, but most players don't play him right, so why when i went to fast1 was i forced to change to DDD 3 times (stayed DDD the last set cuz i won the 4th game of winners finals by 2 stock when i swiched, despite not using DDD hardly at all that day, and constantly using MK the entire time [if I had to guess I'd say like 98% of the day I used MK, constantly playing friendlies], vs hrnuts snake, afros snake, and reflex's wario.

There is already way more info out there for MK than there is for any other character and the primary cause of that comes down to his popularity which is cased from tourney results and ease of use, if it was an equivalent amount for the other characters then I ASSURE you it would be MUCH closer than anyone here thinks.

How can you say that there is no learning the match up better when half of your entire post against OS was about him doing so good against people because they lacked match up experience? You need to make up your mind.

In case you decided on sticking with the there is no learning the match up better what happened to G&W vs the MK match up a few days ago? you learned or revealed not sure which that you could Up B trough G&W's Bair.

Fast1 doesn't really count because at the time Snake was thought to have an advantage over MK and he was still under snake in the tournament rankings.

Popularity doesn't really have to do with how broken he is. Marth has a great community as well and a very good size. The SBR even said part of the reason marth advances to quick is because of his community but I still don't see him doing what MK is.

 

[choknater]

They should settle this in a moneymatch LOL.

The Overswarm vs Mew2King argument will never be settled, since, like people brought up, they are both arguing fallaciously.

Lol, is that a word?

Fallaciously.
Sly fellatio.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok. Seriously.

Do people actually READ M2K's posts?

I REALLY want to know.

 

[CR4SH]

EDIT: @above people - Bans are for high levels of play, not for people like you and me who go to losers round one and two. Only the money and top placements influence bans.

And why the hell should that be?

Edit for addition: Who, exactly, do you think provides that money? Where would the money come from if you and I, from the loser's bracket, decided not to go?

Ok. Seriously.

Do people actually READ M2K's posts?

I REALLY want to know.

I, for one, read the whole thing. Just for reference.

 

[Grunt]

you guys stop talking about your phallic-ious arguments.

 

[fkacyan]

And what would you call his posts to me? -_^

Besides, he posted nothing new.

Rebuttal and a request to prove what you were claiming.

It's perfectly reasonable to say that your region isn't enough to prove MK's broken. M2K has played multiregion, thus he has more experience. He wasn't necessarily saying "You're all bad" so much as "You've all been playing together and have your own mini-metagame, so go out and play in other ones to make your point."

You just got angry at the supposed personal attacks, when the majority wasn't (I'll grant there were some).

"Fallacious" means "untruthful" - root word "fallacy."

 

[choknater]

Emblem Lord assuming M2K has bad arguments... Overswarm and friends assuming Inui is not that good... this stuff is pretty lame.

Phallic Fellatio Fallacies.

 

[Emblem Lord]

M2K doesn't have bad arguments because he doesn't actually argue.

He just says...stuff.

That's the best way to put it.

 

[Tenki]

ROFL!



ROFLMAO!

YESS!! SOMEONE GOT IT!

Besides, he posted nothing new.

He provided a more complete context of some of the examples you posted; and for some people, the context may or may not have been enough to sway people's opinions on this issue.


[edit]

M2K doesn't have bad arguments because he doesn't actually argue.

I think that's basically it. M2K wasn't attacking OS's conclusions as much as he was attacking their 'sources'

 

[CR4SH]

Oh, because I kinda just realized this lol.

You used ad hominem incorrectly there. He didn't attack M2K at all, he did however, attack his argument. Even if it was a fairly shallow attack.

M2K doesn't have bad arguments because he doesn't actually argue.

He just says...stuff.

That's the best way to put it.

/agree

 

[DRaGZ]

Mmm...fellatios...

It really is quite better than intercourse imo.

 

[fkacyan]

And why the hell should that be?

Edit for addition: Who, exactly, do you think provides that money? Where would the money come from if you and I, from the loser's bracket, decided not to go?

So, we should ruin the top level of play in order to please the people who suck?

I'm sorry, but no. Just no.

 

[Vulcan55]

PENIS-RESEMBLING
midoinitrite?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok. Seriously.

Do people actually READ M2K's posts?

I REALLY want to know.

I really can't tell whether Emblem lord is trying to insult people for wasting their time and saying that M2K's posts are crap or people for being stupid and not even reading a post before writing it off.

as long as he's looking down his nose at you, Emblem Lord could conceivably do it.

so which is it emblem lord? do you think M2K's posts aren't worth reading or that everyone saying so is an utter scrub.... or both XD.

I personally am not the least bit involved with this thread I just found it funny that I can't tell what you are trying to do with this post. it can come off either way.

 

[Grunt]

Phallic Fellatio Fallacies.

QFT

also, M2K doesn't argue, he just says how things are going to be.

 

[XienZo]

I think we need to have a basic list of How to Argue and How Not to Argue in the OP or something.

Not that this is bad, but its kinda detracting from the MK part of the discussion.

 

[CR4SH]

So, we should ruin the top level of play in order to please the people who suck?

I'm sorry, but no. Just no.

Who's ruining?

And, who's going to play if you ruin the whole rest of the game for the people who aren't top level?

 

[The Real Inferno]

Ok. Seriously.

Do people actually READ M2K's posts?

I REALLY want to know.

I don't so much read them as mentally correct all the spelling and grammar in order to translate it for myself, though I suppose that's just nitpicking on my part. He makes some good points though, but he should work on overall composition (organization and flow are key!). As an English teacher I give it a C+....wait what was I talking about?

 

[Grunt]

hey OS, you like my sig?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL