The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Crackle]

Totally wrong.

Marth suffers worse then a lot of characters, it's a 65-35 match-up.

Pick Yoshi.

Oh snapz! Too true.

 

[Crackle]

ummm, after i barely beat chillins snake at a NJ tourney with mk, he picked corneria, and if i went DDD he would just CG / camp me with falco, and if i stayed MK he would just pick snake and kill me fast. So he went snake and beat me 1 stock low %, leaving me to BARELY win the 3rd game on delphino last stock 150. DSF also says snake has a big advantage on norfair if you camp well

Low Vertical Ceilings...aren't they on more maps than just Corneria in Brawl?

And I'm under the impression that Meta Knight's Up-b is unstoppable on Norfair. But I guess mines and fall-through floors are something that mix together well on a map like that where MK can be low%'d by Lava or camping.

 

[GofG]

Reaperman64, you see all these people in here who think they know what they're talking about?

They play Brawl.

Real men play Melee. Real men like Captain Falcon.

Also, for more on online Brawl: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187649

it's no good.

 

[AlAxe]

I trust people who play the characters and contribute to both character boards on the match-up more than half the crap people have been saying in this thread.

Trust us we do play the characters. Plus 80% of the people on the character boards are noobs that still don't know what DI is. Most of the character matchup threads are way outdated too.

That or people don't think 45-55 is neutral

It's not nuetral. That's not a horrible matchup but does give a significant advantage to one player.

lol, no.

He has no bad match-ups, but he has plenty of neutral match-ups. He has few stages he stages he doesn't play well or as good on, Final destination, Yoshi's Island.

He's a good choice, not full proof.

He has only advantageous matchups. FD and YI can at worst be considered nuetral stages for MK. This is the general consesus of the experienced smash community.

 

[Gindler]

Real men play Melee.

Yeah....can't have a single thread without one of these showing up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A lot of people don't consider 45-55 neutral because its still an up hill battle and not everyone agrees on them being 45-55. MK doesn't have stages he doesn't do well on he just has stages he doesn't do amazingly god like on.

So he is full proof since there is nothing to bring him into a disadvantage.

45-55 is not an uphill battle, it's barely noticeable.

60-40 is a soft counter and is noticeable.

45-55 is close enough to 50-50 that most people would consider it neutral.

As for stages, if MK doesn't do as proficiently on some stages, that right there proves he doesn't do well on some stages.

That means characters that do well on those stages can gain an upper hand.

 

[Reaperman64]

i take it this happens alot?

 

[Crackle]

45-55 is not an uphill battle, it's barely noticeable.

60-40 is a soft counter and is noticeable.

45-55 is close enough to 50-50 that most people would consider it neutral.

As for stages, if MK doesn't do as proficiently on some stages, that right there proves he doesn't do well on some stages.

That means characters that do well on those stages can gain an upper hand.

Those numbers are estimates, they may or may not be felt the same way by certain players.
If you lose to a MK first round because he doesn't allow you to pick those stages, then win a round with a stage counterpick, then lose again because he chooses a good stage...you just lost to something you couldn't truly counterpick.

 

[Dragonslayer9]

Forget Low tiers, just stick to high tiers, because Brawl is not that balanced at all.

If Metaknight was banned then the tournament scene would not be that much different, just with Snake, DDD and all the other top tier characters dominating. There are ways to be metaknight, if he was truly god tier then he would be COMPLETELY unbeatable.

Banning Metaknight also rips the people that worked hard for their Metaknight to be good.

Just check M2k's thread if MetaKnight is such a big deal to you.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

45-55 is not an uphill battle, it's barely noticeable.

60-40 is a soft counter and is noticeable.

45-55 is close enough to 50-50 that most people would consider it neutral.

As for stages, if MK doesn't do as proficiently on some stages, that right there proves he doesn't do well on some stages.

That means characters that do well on those stages can gain an upper hand.

It's still an uphill battle if you win it means you either got lucky or your a bit better than your opponent. If not they would label it as 50-50 not 45-55.

MK has no stage he doesn't do well on he just has stages that he doesn't do as well on it doesn't mean its bad for him and it might not even mean its a neutral stage for him. All it means is that those stages don't greatly favor MK's play style.

Do yoshi and snake do well on yoshis island brawl and FD? if not the match up's you consider neutral can't gain the upper hand.

edit: I lol at the anti-ban's most common argument being that MK has the ability to take damage now.

 

[Praxis]

Forget Low tiers, just stick to high tiers, because Brawl is not that balanced at all.

If Metaknight was banned then the tournament scene would not be that much different, just with Snake, DDD and all the other top tier characters dominating. There are ways to be metaknight, if he was truly god tier then he would be COMPLETELY unbeatable.

Except Snake, DDD, and G&W not only counter each other, but are countered in turn (and in DDD and Snake's case by several characters in the mid tier, who could easily move up).

The current tier list is heavily judged by "how badly do you lose to MK". Those that are close to even (Snake, G&W) get placed higher than those that get utterly destroyed (Pit, Mario) because MK is the most commonly seen matchup.

With MK taken off the top, a whole host of characters with good matchups against Snake and DDD become playable.

Just check M2k's thread if MetaKnight is such a big deal to you.

You think most of us in here haven't already read it?

 

[salaboB]

Just check M2k's thread if MetaKnight is such a big deal to you.

That thread's been closed, he was just providing tips for beating the predictable MKs and didn't like it being suggested he provide tips on how to beat the good ones.

 

[Reaperman64]

well good night i need sleep for college :D

enjoy your debate and sooner or later someone will brawl me:D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Trust us we do play the characters. Plus 80% of the people on the character boards are noobs that still don't know what DI is. Most of the character matchup threads are way outdated too.

This is why the match-up threads are looked over first and agree with the other boards.

The Lucario boards aren't full of idiots, random topic happy but not stupid. They send messages to other boards to get into the match-ups when they are discussed.

There are idiots in the boards, this is why people look over the match-ups and debate over them. If you think a match-up is incorrect, make a topic about it and explain why.

It's not nuetral. That's not a horrible matchup but does give a significant advantage to one player.

It's hardly noticeable.

45-55 doesn't put a huge emphasis on the fight, hell 40-60 is only a soft counter.

The fights are only true uphill battles when the matchups start turning out to 35-65.

He has only advantageous matchups. FD and YI can at worst be considered nuetral stages for MK. This is the general consesus of the experienced smash community.

Not everyone agrees with that, nor do I expect them to.

Those numbers are estimates, they may or may not be felt the same way by certain players.
If you lose to a MK first round because he doesn't allow you to pick those stages, then win a round with a stage counterpick, then lose again because he chooses a good stage...you just lost to something you couldn't truly counterpick.

This is why you strike a stage he commonly does good on, and be smart with who you play as. IE, don't play as Link on Rainbow Cruise.

He's going to do the same to you to prevent you from picking a not so good stage, but you still have two to three more options.

It's still an uphill battle if you win it means you either got lucky or your a bit better than your opponent. If not they would label it as 50-50 not 45-55.

45-55 is still a close battle.

Kirby vs Lucario is 45-55, but that match-up still can go either way if both players are equally skilled.

Lucario has a slight edge, but that edge isn't enough to shut Kirby down. This is the same for MK's neutrals.

MK has no stage he doesn't do well on he just has stages that he doesn't do as well on it doesn't mean its bad for him and it might not even mean its a neutral stage for him. All it means is that those stages don't greatly favor MK's play style.

If it doesn't favor his play style, then it's not a good stage to fight on. If another character can play well on that stages then it's a plus for fighting him there.

Do yoshi and snake do well on yoshis island brawl and FD? if not the match up's you consider neutral can't gain the upper hand.

Yoshi will want to stick to FD, the upper platform on Yoshi's island might mess up his grab release. Snake won't care since he'll try one of those stages if he couldn't take Metaknight to Corneria.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*ignore this post*

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

This is why the match-up threads are looked over first and agree with the other boards.

The Lucario boards aren't full of idiots, random topic happy but not stupid. They send messages to other boards to get into the match-ups when they are discussed.

There are idiots in the boards, this is why people look over the match-ups and debate over them. If you think a match-up is incorrect, make a topic about it and explain why.



It's hardly noticeable.

45-55 doesn't put a huge emphasis on the fight, hell 40-60 is only a soft counter.

The fights are only true uphill battles when the matchups start turning out to 35-65.



Not everyone agrees with that, nor do I expect them to.

The lucario boards actually do seem pretty stupid when it comes to match up discussion I remember them saying a good lucario will only loose to a good Ike 1 out of 10 times. That would mean its a 90-10 match up and not even Bowser vs DDD is that.

That uphill thing is only your opinion while saying that 49-51 is an uphill battle can be an actual fact since it has math involved.

45-55 is still a close battle.

Kirby vs Lucario is 45-55, but that match-up still can go either way if both players are equally skilled.

Lucario has a slight edge, but that edge isn't enough to shut Kirby down. This is the same for MK's neutrals.



If it doesn't favor his play style, then it's not a good stage to fight on. If another character can play well on that stages then it's a plus for fighting him there.



Yoshi will want to stick to FD, the upper platform on Yoshi's island might mess up his grab release. Snake won't care since he'll try one of those stages if he couldn't take Metaknight to Corneria

If the lucario and kirby are of equal skill then the lucario will win isn't that obvious? he has a small advantage on him.

It doesn't hinder his play style though so at worst its just a stage with nothing special on it. I don't actually believe that though I think it just doesn't favor his play style as much as other stages but it still favors it because MK is just to good at the basics of this game.

Well Snake doesn't gain an advantage on those stages so guess MK has nothing to worry about. Against a yoshi I think MK might just go ahead and ban that stage so with the stage strike system he really has nothing to worry about keeping him full proof.

 

[bobson]

A thought:

Will the official SBR tier list change if Metaknight gets banned, or will it still be ordered as if Metaknight is still allowed?

 

[Overswarm]

A thought:

Will the official SBR tier list change if Metaknight gets banned, or will it still be ordered as if Metaknight is still allowed?

I think people will get the gist of where he placed.

 

[salaboB]

ummm, after i barely beat chillins snake at a NJ tourney with mk, he picked corneria, and if i went DDD he would just CG / camp me with falco, and if i stayed MK he would just pick snake and kill me fast. So he went snake and beat me 1 stock low %, leaving me to BARELY win the 3rd game on delphino last stock 150. DSF also says snake has a big advantage on norfair if you camp well

I think at this point, the problem isn't entirely that MK can't be beaten if you're an *expert* at one of the characters that comes close to him. It's that anything below that expert stage -- ie everyone who is providing you big pots for winning tourneys -- faces far worse matchups than the matchup charts would indicate, because MK is just so easy to use and has so many options without really having to have a good player behind him to drive them. To get any character able to beat any good MK with the flexibility he has requires people at the very, very top level of play, and most people just don't have time to get to that point.

Even Sheik in Melee didn't require that much devotion to get your character to a point where you could defeat someone who was close to equal in your skill -- she didn't have the sheer number of options that MK does that you have to figure out how to handle.

So yes, it's good for keeping MK around that people can threaten you with other characters. But at the same time, it's irrelevent because anyone less skilled than those few people who have driven their characters to almost your level faces a major uphill battle even using characters that people say go neutral with MK. Because those matchups only seem to hold true at the very top levels of ability.

It comes down to whether banning him is needed to keep the competitive scene alive and enough people attending tournaments that they're worth going to or whether he can be left alone and people will continue to go. And no amount of "But I almost lost" will change people's minds about giving up on Brawl entirely when they practice for all the hours they can spare and can still find no way around MK's sheer versatility. Is keeping MK really worth having the biggest pots be from 20 people? Or even 50?

I think people will get the gist of where he placed.

I believe he's asking about the order of the other characters in the tier list.

My guess is a second one without MK would be released, once things got settled and that started getting figured out.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Usually in a tier list, if a character gets banned, then they are relegated to a new "God" tier and the list below that is reorganized to fit the new metagame, or they are simply removed from the tier list all together and not given a placement. Either way the list is usually reorganized in games if something has to be banned.

 

[goldemblem]

It will change and probably some characters could rise, those that were hindered by meta, if meta gets a bann i can see IC becoming top tier and olimar and luigi rising

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The lucario boards actually do seem pretty stupid when it comes to match up discussion I remember them saying a good lucario will only loose to a good Ike 1 out of 10 times. That would mean its a 90-10 match up and not even Bowser vs DDD is that.

Then you weren't reading a credible source.

The smart people on those boards say the match-up is 40-60/35-65

Someone made a thread about Ike vs Lucario a while back and someone did make that stupid comment about Lucario only losing one every ten matches.

However, the Lucario boards haven't reviewed that match-up thoroughly to come to a consensus. (We just got done with Peach and are discussing Zelda)

If it means anything, we're reviewing Meta Knight next.

That uphill thing is only your opinion while saying that 49-51 is an uphill battle can be an actual fact since it has math involved.

It's still very winnable.

45-55 is very close to 50-50, some people even confuse it with 45-55.

Most people consider it Neutral or slight disadvantage, but even the people who say it's a disadvantage say it's hardly bad.

If the lucario and kirby are of equal skill then the lucario will win isn't that obvious? he has a small advantage on him.

It's not obvious because the numerical values are very close to 50. They're odds that don't extremely favor one over the other.

It doesn't hinder his play style though so at worst its just a stage with nothing special on it. I don't actually believe that though I think it just doesn't favor his play style as much as other stages but it still favors it because MK is just to good at the basics of this game.

Again, if he doesn't do proficiently on those stages, then those stages aren't good for him.

Even basic stages like Battlefield and Final Destination favor some characters.

Well Snake doesn't gain an advantage on those stages so guess MK has nothing to worry about. Against a yoshi I think MK might just go ahead and ban that stage so with the stage strike system he really has nothing to worry about keeping him full proof.

Snake gains a lot from Corneria, close blastlines = tilting fun.

Yoshi likes flat areas from his grab release.

Even with stage striking, there are other stages those character can perform just as well on. In snake's case, if he can't go to Corneria, he's just going to pick some other stage with a low ceiling, or a stage good for camping.

 

[DanGR]

I think Olimar has a neutral matchup with MK on Corneria.

 

[memphischains]

I think Olimar has a neutral matchup with MK on Corneria.

and i think you're an idiot

 

[DRaGZ]

I think Olimar has a neutral matchup with MK on Corneria.

Wooooow...

 

[Crackle]

*Tears his head open and sees Olimar at the controls*

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Again, if he doesn't do proficiently on those stages, then those stages aren't good for him.

Even basic stages like Battlefield and Final Destination favor some characters.



Snake gains a lot from Corneria, close blastlines = tilting fun.

Yoshi likes flat areas from his grab release.

Even with stage striking, there are other stages those character can perform just as well on. In snake's case, if he can't go to Corneria, he's just going to pick some other stage with a low ceiling, or a stage good for camping.

Just because he doesn't do proficiently on those stages it doesn't mean they aren't good. Not doing proficiently on something just means you don't do stellar not that its bad. I know that those stages favor characters but they favor MK as well.

Those are the only 2 stages you said MK doesn't do proficiently on though so any other stage really doesn't do much.

 

[Mew2King]

I originally thought you could beat MK. I studied the matchup and character more than most, playing almost exclusively against Kel and Scarecrow, two Midwest MK players. At one point I played against Scarecrow, my lil bro, every day for at least 2 hours ROB vs. MK. It didn't help when I played DSF's MK vs. my ROB... I got wrecked. Unfortuantely, I couldn't jsut say "wow, DSF is so much better than me" because I did just as well against his Snake with ROB as he did against my ROB with his MK! To add icing to the cake, I did very well in MK dittos even though I didn't really play that character at the time. Was definitely a WTF? moment for me.

Rob counters Snake, and DSF also lost to some other Rob player before you that he told me about right after it happened, but then 3 stocked that Rob with DDD. He got to play me for 8 hours the day before CH3 and he basically copied a lot of the stuff that I do (he also got to see me fight Chibo's Rob [Chibo was the person we were staying with, he MAINS rob] plenty of times to learn what to do. At that point in time he did in fact have more rob experience than he did MK experience believe it or not

Then for a short while I thought it'd be like Sheik or Fox... but we're smarter than we were at the beginning of Melee. MK isn't dominating due to chain grabs, and our DI doesn't suck. He's not like Fox either.... Fox got destroyed as much as he destroyed others. Plus, Fox wasn't alone in his awesomeness. Marth, Falco, Sheik were all up there with him. And Fox's recovery was easily attacked.

What? Fox and Sheik don't really have any bad matchups in Melee. Don't say ICs do good against Sheik cuz me and Cort/PC all think Sheik has the advantage, and I think Sheik has very close matches with space animals. Fox's only bad matchups are Chain Grabbers on FD and ARGUABLY Falco, which many people including PC think Fox has the advantage anyway. So no at high level there is extremely little difference as far as matchups go.

Then my first MK tournament, I got 2nd in the custom stage tournament using SBR stages and got 5th in the actual tournament singles and 1rst in doubles.

Ok, travel outside of MW who rarely plays compared to the other coasts and prove how broken MK is, unless you are going to keep relying on my tourney results or Dojo who doesn't care at all since he's been practicing Diddy

I beat Anther, one of the MW's best, in the custom stage tournament, and lost to Joel, a G&W.

I lost to Anther on the last game of our set, 130% for both of us when I was hit. Joel beat me again as well, but I did better vs. him than I had ever done before.

That is because MK has the advantage on GW while Rob's WORST MATCHUP ACCORDING TO BOTH VELOCITY (gw) AND CHIBO (rob). Obviously you're going to do better. I'm pretty sure Vidjo, arguably the smartest player in the Midwest, who mains MK, lost to anther the last set, and barely barely lost to DSF's MK, despite DSF being one of the best players in the US.

I had picked up MK two weeks before then.

As time has gone on, all of the best players have either starting maining MK, picking up MK as a secondary, or leaving. Even Azen uses MK at the end of tournaments consistently now. Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups. MK's playstyle is incredibly simple and easy to pick up, and you HAVE to play him to win on a national level.

No he's not, he used MK at the end of tourneys like twice before, once vs chillin in a FRIENDLY set that didn't count for anything, and once against Lee because his Lucario did worse. However, AND AZEN EVEN POSTED THIS HIMSELF, Azen does better vs practially every other MK using Lucario, such as Me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and stiltz. I even saw Azen almost 3 stock Forte 1 tourney match, and while plank says he beats Azen most MK dittos, Azen 2 stocks him with Lucario. Do you really want me to find Azen's quote? because if necessary I will get it for you.

Sure, I could main ROB and do well in the midwest... but if I ever wanted to travel I'd be screwed simply because I wasn't playing MK.

that is such a lie, how do you know that, do you realize the other regions have more MK experience than they have rob experience as a whole (except the west as far as I've heard)

There has been a lot of talk of "counters".

DKs, like Bum, have been beaten. Inui's fresh and untested MK beat him.

Bum sucks vs tornado since he never fought against it, but Bum did win the first set 2-0 before losing 3-2, and the last weekly A FEW DAYS AGO Bum got 1st while both inui at atomsk got 5th. In fact, Rx and Xyz at FAST1 beat me and cort 3-2 in a set, ****** us badly the first match. You know what Rx did? He spammed Tornado. Guess what we did to them in the grand finals. WE 6-0d THEM experience is SO important. Inui also had the ability to play with me many instances before this, including me teaching him occasional things here and there.

Diddys, like Ninjalink, have been beaten. Inui again.

You really need to stop acting like Inui sucks or something, he managed to get 5th at FAST1 using Snake, and 9th at CH3 even though he lost to me and then had a loss to LK because of a suicide. He is not a bad player. NL has beaten me 2-0 in a set, Forte in set (didn't watch that one), 2-0d infernoOmni in a set including 2 stocking him at mid % one game, and the one game Azen tried MK vs him Azen almost got 2 stocked, while as his Lucario won 3 out of 4 games

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

More like, DSF copied my MK I'm pretty sure I myself would have picked up a lot of characters if I had tons of hours to spend with a really good player, such as Azen

Lucario? Azen's the only one and he even switches to MK when push comes to shove.

um when, like 2 instances ever? 1 in a friendly set and once against lee, despite the fact that LEe was a rare exception to the rule as i stated earlier, as Azen does better vs me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and stiltz with Lucario than he does with MK. What about the times Azen switched to MK but did worse than he does with lucario, like the last time he fought me, or when he fought NinjaLink? For such a dominating broken character, with arguably the smartest or one of the smartest players in the world, why is lucario doing much better in most instances. YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THAT ONE INSTANCE ABOUT LEE OVER AND OVER IN DIFFERENT THREADS, IT'S RIDICULOUS.

G&W? This matchup has been increasingly falling in MKs favor as more info is discovered.

No, wtf that was all ME. I figured out the matchup and told Hylian about it, but then he posted it so everyone else would know. GW players could easily do that. So far you're basically just saying that I'm breaking the game, which is what I, as a competitive player, does. Find a GW player as dedicated/experienced as me... oh wait, there aren't any.

ROB is hard countered by MK. I invented the character, built him from the ground up, and switched to MK.

that is so biased, and although I may disagree with you, there's no way to prove that wrong, but I really do think you are just giving up way too easily because of how you did vs DSF one time

Yoshi? No. It's not even an option.

yoshi sucks, his whole game is pivot tongue grab and throwing eggs, but he does decent vs MK, I think it's 60/40 in MKs favor, since yoshi can CG MK Across the stage into a fair spike, and if MK is at like 40%+ (according to what Pride told me) he'll die. Don't forget that every grab with the grab attacks (only the 1st one counts toward attack regeneration) counts toward attack regeneration of all your other moves, so even of you don't get the kill it still helps you a lot more than the minimal grab attack damage makes it look like.


There's nothing you can do to make MK a bad choice.... so why try?

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of better characters to use for matchups. Azen used 6 characters to get as far as he did at Hobo11, but you guys put him down as only lucario/MK, which is an extremely biased, lying thing to do (I forget who posted that but it was not a good thing to do). On top of that, Lee shouldn't have even gotten 3rd. Hylian SDed at 0% against him and I told Lee how to do the matchup, which was to walk away F smash and ground up Bs to counter the Bair when he comes at him. I saw the end of the 3rd (last) game on Corneria, and it was last stock 90% both of them, and it was ENDED by the up B tip he gave him. I can't imagine how many more times it was used that match/set, along with the F smash tip. Hylian even made a thread about the matchup afterwords. Who cares if MK isn't necessarily a "bad" choice, Fox was never a "bad" choice in any matchup, EVER, in melee, his worst matchup was some characters on FD who CG him, and I still have yet to go less than even with any CGing character on FD (and ARGUABLY falco, but half the ppl I ask say Fox has the advantage or it's even; PC says fox has the advantage and i just sucked vs falco back then and pc had to switch from falco to fox in mlg 06 vegas finals because his falco lost like 3 times in a row i believe it was), in fact at MLG NY 06 semifinals Ken didn't even pick FD on me; all 5 other stages were picked. MK is an easier to use Fox, that is it.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar v MK is roughly 60-40 MK on most stages.
-Gimp kills are greatly reduced on Corneria.*
-Olimar kills vertically MUCH lower than usual as well.

This brings it to roughly 55-45 or 50-50

*- Olimar's #1 weakness is his awful recovery, which is also the only thing keeping him from the top of high tier might I add.

 

[goldemblem]

meta should be banned, he is a monster, only meta mains and the stupids who haven't played a really good meta say that meta it's not broken.

Olimar, advantage on meta....you sir are stupid... >_>

 

[salaboB]

M2K -- This got lost in spam, but your thinking on it might be interesting:

I think at this point, the problem isn't entirely that MK can't be beaten if you're an *expert* at one of the characters that comes close to him. It's that anything below that expert stage -- ie everyone who is providing you big pots for winning tourneys -- faces far worse matchups than the matchup charts would indicate, because MK is just so easy to use and has so many options without really having to have a good player behind him to drive them. To get any character able to beat any good MK with the flexibility he has requires people at the very, very top level of play, and most people just don't have time to get to that point.

Even Sheik in Melee didn't require that much devotion to get your character to a point where you could defeat someone who was close to equal in your skill -- she didn't have the sheer number of options that MK does that you have to figure out how to handle.

So yes, it's good for keeping MK around that people can threaten you with other characters. But at the same time, it's irrelevent because anyone less skilled than those few people who have driven their characters to almost your level faces a major uphill battle even using characters that people say go neutral with MK. Because those matchups only seem to hold true at the very top levels of ability.

It comes down to whether banning him is needed to keep the competitive scene alive and enough people attending tournaments that they're worth going to or whether he can be left alone and people will continue to go. And no amount of "But I almost lost" will change people's minds about giving up on Brawl entirely when they practice for all the hours they can spare and can still find no way around MK's sheer versatility. Is keeping MK really worth having the biggest pots be from 20 people? Or even 50?

So, don't know what you think about that. Your line seems to be that he can be taken down at the top levels of ability, but at the top skill levels isn't where the majority of tournaments (Or sources of money at the big ones) ever reach.

 

[Boolossus]

I think that Metaknight should be banned.

 

[goldemblem]

I Also think Metaknight should be banned

 

[DanGR]

meta should be banned, he is a monster, only meta mains and the stupids who haven't played a really good meta say that meta it's not broken.

Olimar, advantage on meta....you sir are stupid... >_>

What's wrong with you guys? I never said Olimar had the advantage. I said I think Olimar v MK is neutral on corneria- a stage that is banned in most tourneys anyways. (at least that I've been too)

 

[Boolossus]

I Also think Metaknight should be banned

The movement grows! You can't argue if there are 2 of us! Together we are strong!

 

[XienZo]

Olimar v MK is roughly 60-40 MK on most stages.
-Gimp kills are greatly reduced on Corneria.*
-Olimar kills vertically MUCH lower than usual as well.

This brings it to roughly 55-45 or 50-50

*- Olimar's #1 weakness is his awful recovery, which is also the only thing keeping him from the top of high tier might I add.

Olimar's just really misunderstood... no one that popular mains him... some people still think you win by killing all his Pikmin...

And I don't see too many things MK could do if Olimar's camping on the right.

 

[Mew2King]

i do feel like an olimar that camps perfectly is ridiculously hard to beat

 

[memphischains]

i do feel like an olimar that camps perfectly is ridiculously hard to beat

anyone that does anything perfectly is hard to beat

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just because he doesn't do proficiently on those stages it doesn't mean they aren't good. Not doing proficiently on something just means you don't do stellar not that its bad. I know that those stages favor characters but they favor MK as well.

Those stages are still better if you want to fight MK.

Those stages don't spell death for MK

Those are the only 2 stages you said MK doesn't do proficiently on though so any other stage really doesn't do much.

Snake has four.

Final Destination, nothing is going to get in your way here and your camp game.

Yoshi's Island Brawl, Like Final Destination, only the tilting platform above, which won't get in the way of your tilts if you hide under it, or set up mines.

Corneria, low ceiling and close blast lines on the sides make Snake a happy guy.

Green Greens, Low Ceiling, not much room for aerial combat, tornado needs to stay in one place or risk hitting bombs.

 

[Overswarm]

I originally thought you could beat MK. I studied the matchup and character more than most, playing almost exclusively against Kel and Scarecrow, two Midwest MK players. At one point I played against Scarecrow, my lil bro, every day for at least 2 hours ROB vs. MK. It didn't help when I played DSF's MK vs. my ROB... I got wrecked. Unfortuantely, I couldn't jsut say "wow, DSF is so much better than me" because I did just as well against his Snake with ROB as he did against my ROB with his MK! To add icing to the cake, I did very well in MK dittos even though I didn't really play that character at the time. Was definitely a WTF? moment for me.

Rob counters Snake, and DSF also lost to some other Rob player before you that he told me about right after it happened, but then 3 stocked that Rob with DDD. He got to play me for 8 hours the day before CH3 and he basically copied a lot of the stuff that I do (he also got to see me fight Chibo's Rob [Chibo was the person we were staying with, he MAINS rob] plenty of times to learn what to do. At that point in time he did in fact have more rob experience than he did MK experience believe it or not

Then for a short while I thought it'd be like Sheik or Fox... but we're smarter than we were at the beginning of Melee. MK isn't dominating due to chain grabs, and our DI doesn't suck. He's not like Fox either.... Fox got destroyed as much as he destroyed others. Plus, Fox wasn't alone in his awesomeness. Marth, Falco, Sheik were all up there with him. And Fox's recovery was easily attacked.

What? Fox and Sheik don't really have any bad matchups in Melee. Don't say ICs do good against Sheik cuz me and Cort/PC all think Sheik has the advantage, and I think Sheik has very close matches with space animals. Fox's only bad matchups are Chain Grabbers on FD and ARGUABLY Falco, which many people including PC think Fox has the advantage anyway. So no at high level there is extremely little difference as far as matchups go.

Then my first MK tournament, I got 2nd in the custom stage tournament using SBR stages and got 5th in the actual tournament singles and 1rst in doubles.

Ok, travel outside of MW who rarely plays compared to the other coasts and prove how broken MK is, unless you are going to keep relying on my tourney results or Dojo who doesn't care at all since he's been practicing Diddy

I beat Anther, one of the MW's best, in the custom stage tournament, and lost to Joel, a G&W.

I lost to Anther on the last game of our set, 130% for both of us when I was hit. Joel beat me again as well, but I did better vs. him than I had ever done before.

That is because MK has the advantage on GW while Rob's WORST MATCHUP ACCORDING TO BOTH VELOCITY (gw) AND CHIBO (rob). Obviously you're going to do better. I'm pretty sure Vidjo, arguably the smartest player in the Midwest, who mains MK, lost to anther the last set, and barely barely lost to DSF's MK, despite DSF being one of the best players in the US.

I had picked up MK two weeks before then.

As time has gone on, all of the best players have either starting maining MK, picking up MK as a secondary, or leaving. Even Azen uses MK at the end of tournaments consistently now. Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups. MK's playstyle is incredibly simple and easy to pick up, and you HAVE to play him to win on a national level.

No he's not, he used MK at the end of tourneys like twice before, once vs chillin in a FRIENDLY set that didn't count for anything, and once against Lee because his Lucario did worse. However, AND AZEN EVEN POSTED THIS HIMSELF, Azen does better vs practially every other MK using Lucario, such as Me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and stiltz. I even saw Azen almost 3 stock Forte 1 tourney match, and while plank says he beats Azen most MK dittos, Azen 2 stocks him with Lucario. Do you really want me to find Azen's quote? because if necessary I will get it for you.

Sure, I could main ROB and do well in the midwest... but if I ever wanted to travel I'd be screwed simply because I wasn't playing MK.

that is such a lie, how do you know that, do you realize the other regions have more MK experience than they have rob experience as a whole (except the west as far as I've heard)

There has been a lot of talk of "counters".

DKs, like Bum, have been beaten. Inui's fresh and untested MK beat him.

Bum sucks vs tornado since he never fought against it, but Bum did win the first set 2-0 before losing 3-2, and the last weekly A FEW DAYS AGO Bum got 1st while both inui at atomsk got 5th. In fact, Rx and Xyz at FAST1 beat me and cort 3-2 in a set, ****** us badly the first match. You know what Rx did? He spammed Tornado. Guess what we did to them in the grand finals. WE 6-0d THEM experience is SO important. Inui also had the ability to play with me many instances before this, including me teaching him occasional things here and there.

Diddys, like Ninjalink, have been beaten. Inui again.

You really need to stop acting like Inui sucks or something, he managed to get 5th at FAST1 using Snake, and 9th at CH3 even though he lost to me and then had a loss to LK because of a suicide. He is not a bad player. NL has beaten me 2-0 in a set, Forte in set (didn't watch that one), 2-0d infernoOmni in a set including 2 stocking him at mid % one game, and the one game Azen tried MK vs him Azen almost got 2 stocked, while as his Lucario won 3 out of 4 games

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

More like, DSF copied my MK I'm pretty sure I myself would have picked up a lot of characters if I had tons of hours to spend with a really good player, such as Azen

Lucario? Azen's the only one and he even switches to MK when push comes to shove.

um when, like 2 instances ever? 1 in a friendly set and once against lee, despite the fact that LEe was a rare exception to the rule as i stated earlier, as Azen does better vs me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and stiltz with Lucario than he does with MK. What about the times Azen switched to MK but did worse than he does with lucario, like the last time he fought me, or when he fought NinjaLink? For such a dominating broken character, with arguably the smartest or one of the smartest players in the world, why is lucario doing much better in most instances. YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THAT ONE INSTANCE ABOUT LEE OVER AND OVER IN DIFFERENT THREADS, IT'S RIDICULOUS.

G&W? This matchup has been increasingly falling in MKs favor as more info is discovered.

No, wtf that was all ME. I figured out the matchup and told Hylian about it, but then he posted it so everyone else would know. GW players could easily do that. So far you're basically just saying that I'm breaking the game, which is what I, as a competitive player, does. Find a GW player as dedicated/experienced as me... oh wait, there aren't any.

ROB is hard countered by MK. I invented the character, built him from the ground up, and switched to MK.

that is so biased, and although I may disagree with you, there's no way to prove that wrong, but I really do think you are just giving up way too easily because of how you did vs DSF one time

Yoshi? No. It's not even an option.

yoshi sucks, his whole game is pivot tongue grab and throwing eggs, but he does decent vs MK, I think it's 60/40 in MKs favor, since yoshi can CG MK Across the stage into a fair spike, and if MK is at like 40%+ (according to what Pride told me) he'll die. Don't forget that every grab with the grab attacks (only the 1st one counts toward attack regeneration) counts toward attack regeneration of all your other moves, so even of you don't get the kill it still helps you a lot more than the minimal grab attack damage makes it look like.


There's nothing you can do to make MK a bad choice.... so why try?

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of better characters to use for matchups. Azen used 6 characters to get as far as he did at Hobo11, but you guys put him down as only lucario/MK, which is an extremely biased, lying thing to do (I forget who posted that but it was not a good thing to do). On top of that, Lee shouldn't have even gotten 3rd. Hylian SDed at 0% against him and I told Lee how to do the matchup, which was to walk away F smash and ground up Bs to counter the Bair when he comes at him. I saw the end of the 3rd (last) game on Corneria, and it was last stock 90% both of them, and it was ENDED by the up B tip he gave him. I can't imagine how many more times it was used that match/set, along with the F smash tip. Hylian even made a thread about the matchup afterwords. Who cares if MK isn't necessarily a "bad" choice, Fox was never a "bad" choice in any matchup, EVER, in melee, his worst matchup was some characters on FD who CG him, and I still have yet to go less than even with any CGing character on FD (and ARGUABLY falco, but half the ppl I ask say Fox has the advantage or it's even; PC says fox has the advantage and i just sucked vs falco back then and pc had to switch from falco to fox in mlg 06 vegas finals because his falco lost like 3 times in a row i believe it was), in fact at MLG NY 06 semifinals Ken didn't even pick FD on me; all 5 other stages were picked. MK is an easier to use Fox, that is it.

You could have saved yourself some time and wrote:

"You are bad at this game and your region sucks. My region is better and even though I win I do bad a lot so that means Metaknight isn't broken. Also I taught every player everything, they just copied me."