The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Natch]

Brinboy789, you have the honor of being the first person to go on my ignore list.

Congratulations, Brinboy, you are annoying, you spam, you're probably somewhere between the ages of 10 and 15, you don't know how to argue, you're ignorant...

And you smell.

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy789, you have the honor of being the first person to go on my ignore list.
Guys, if he's being annoying, put him on ignore. It's fun.

the SWF has just dropped down another notch. wtf. i try and put something out on my arguement, and then everybody ignores it. then, i post it again, and people are flaming me and ignoring it at the same time. wat the ****

 

[Skink]

I have to have some respect for brin for standing alone on this issue, but if I was a MK player, I would want to nominate someone more.. diplomatic (smrt) for the job. What throws me off is when you cite personal accounts and fights for why MK shouldn't be beaten. Who cares if you lost to a marth? I'm not willing to say you're the best around. Now, what I got from your whole speech about getting better to beat a better character is just that the best MK will always beat the best anyone else. And that's something I don't really want to tolerate.

 

[BentoBox]

disregard this post

 

[ThaRoy]

the SWF has just dropped down another notch. wtf. i try and put something out on my arguement, and then everybody ignores it. then, i post it again, and people are flaming me and ignoring it at the same time. wat the ****

Oh really now?

 

[Zankoku]

Plagiarist.

 

[brinboy789]

I have to have some respect for brin for standing alone on this issue, but if I was a MK player, I would want to nominate someone more.. diplomatic (smrt) for the job. What throws me off is when you cite personal accounts and fights for why MK shouldn't be beaten. Who cares if you lost to a marth? I'm not willing to say you're the best around. Now, what I got from your whole speech about getting better to beat a better character is just that the best MK will always beat the best anyone else. And that's something I don't really want to tolerate.

well hey...its M2K. i'm 99% sure that he could **** with or w/out his MK. and i didnt cite personal accounts, thats from a post from Dojo, one of the worlds best MK players. and he was talking about high level tournament.

Oh really now?

yes. its my arguement. im just using somebodys quote to help me out. and i put his name IN the post.

 

[Tyser]

@ BrinBoy - You're taking this redunk seriously. LOLZ.

 

[Zankoku]

Dojo, one of the worlds best MK players.

So I got my **** wrecked hard....

M2K is too ****ing good. I had no chance. RoyR beasted me as well. I have ALOT to learn before I'll consider myself good at this game. :\

I had a blast overall. But this opened my eyes a little more. I'll post some shoutouts for you sexy *****es later.

It appears some people are a little more capable of modesty.

 

[brinboy789]

@ BrinBoy - You're taking this redunk seriously. LOLZ.

were all taking this seriously. if you want, look back a couple of pages, theres a person who was something like stingers135 (?), and he wasnt taking this seriously, and got badly flamed.

 

[brinboy789]

It appears some people are a little more capable of modesty.

O.o

ok then...i take back what i said, but hes still an amazing MK player. didnt he win that tournament that hylian was talking about? the thread is http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195120

its called: "dojo's MK is insane. INSANE. hes not the BEST, but hes a good player.

 

[Dojo]

I'm a very good MK. Not an AMAZING one. M2K is the definition of amazing.

But I can name like 5 people off the top of my head that have a better MK as of right now.


EDIT:
1000TH POST!

NOW I'm an amazing MK. XD
Lolz

 

[Jack Kieser]

So, I'm glad to see that Yuna has taken the advice to go get some rest (he's probably in dire need of a massage at this point *raises eyebrows*), but since he left this thread has taken a serious dive. Like, wow. Sad panda.

 

[infomon]

I have to have some respect for brin for standing alone on this issue, but if I was a MK player, I would want to nominate someone more.. diplomatic (smrt) for the job.

Trust me, if we could stop him, we would. His "arguments" (read: opinions, trolling, re-posting) do more harm to our side than good.

Also, congrats Dojo.

 

[hyperstation]

I've been watching this thread unpack itself for the week or so it's been open, and I have to say...what a mess. The first 24 hours of posting in here were really great. Intelligent players argued in a point/counterpoint style which actually shed light on the current state of MK domination. Since then, this thread has degraded into a pissing contest. Somehow it became about pride and personal offense and stopped being objective.

Brinboy, if you have any respect for yourself and for this smash community, you'll take yourself more seriously. You sound like a whining child, and if after reading all the points on both sides of the fence as to why MK should or should not be banned you still feel the way you do, then do your best to reinvent yourself in this thread (and forum in general) in an intelligent, respectful manner. You've smothered any progressive debate surrounding this topic with pages and pages of your suffocating personal rants. That's not to say that other people aren't just as guilty, but you are indubitably the catalyst of this discussion's apocalypse. I've seen you present the same arguments over and over again in this thread as well as others before this, and rather than present your point knowing that people WILL read it and then let the discussion unfold naturally from there, you find it necessary to refute every counterpoint with your already noted arguments. It doesn't make your arguments stronger, but in fact reflects poorly on your intelligence and subsequently the validity of your arguments.

Everyone participating in this heated, passionate debate should understand that an internet forum might not be your ideal podium to orate your points. If someone doesn't respond to what you said, that doesn't mean people didn't read it, but just means what you said didn't resonate with them to the point of response. So rather than getting in quote wars back and forth pushing your same stump speeches over and over again, let the debate breathe and maybe (just maybe) it will start to get somewhere again.

 

[brinboy789]

Trust me, if we could stop him, we would. His "arguments" (read: opinions, trolling, re-posting) do more harm to our side than good.

Also, congrats Dojo.

i do not post opinions. im repost because the first time i posted they blatantly ignored it. and trolling...wow. are you with me or not? im posting the most so i get flamed. yuna posts alot too but hes a great debater and everybody knows that so he doesnt get flamed often. me on the other hand...im not a great debater, but i try to do it as best as i can. people who flame arent helping

 

[choknater]

... So the simple notion of Brawl tournies being more fun without MK was all it took to sway you to support banning MK? o_O

No you fool, LOL!

The agreement we came to was an agreement to differing opinions.

I understand the banning side better now.

Hell no I don't think MK should be banned.

What I meant by "TO's, do the right thing" is to do whatever they feel is right for their tournament.

Large, acclaimed competitions will surely not ban MK, and if they do I won't consider it legit. Sure, the best players will still win, but with a flawed ruleset. If people wanna ban MK for the sake of an enjoyable atmosphere, I'd still play at that tournament but I'd rather go to one with MK still in it.

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy, if you have any respect for yourself and for this smash community, you'll take yourself more seriously. You sound like a whining child, and if after reading all the points on both sides of the fence as to why MK should or should not be banned you still feel the way you do, then do your best to reinvent yourself in this thread (and forum in general) in an intelligent, respectful manner. You've smothered any progressive debate surrounding this topic with pages and pages of your suffocating personal rants. That's not to say that other people aren't just as guilty, but you are indubitably the catalyst of this discussion's apocalypse. I've seen you present the same arguments over and over again in this thread as well as others before this, and rather than present your point knowing that people WILL read it and then let the discussion unfold naturally from there, you find it necessary to refute every counterpoint with your already noted arguments. It doesn't make your arguments stronger, but in fact reflects poorly on your intelligence and subsequently the validity of your arguments.

.........-sigh---------
alright, im giving up on ever attempting to convince you guys. and for the last time, ive never posted anything "personal". i try to make facts. im gonna lay back on this thread no, just gonna post a little, because its probably gonna get flamed anyway. im trying my best. what can i say? im not a great debator

 

[hoopspr226]

Metaknight = Melee Sheik

Very strong character who is easy to pick up and ***** most of the cast.

Quite a few counters/even matchups/almost even matchups were discovered for Sheik when people learned how to fight sheik properly and she stopped dominating tournaments (although she does still do quite well). The same could happen for Metaknight.

 

[Crizthakidd]

at this point your either MK or u loose the tourny

 

[kupo15]

yup. I main Pit and do you think I would ever beat a MK in a tourney? Esp since m2k lives so close? Believe it or not, MK is the only one I really have trouble with. I think I could stand a chance with all of the other characters. Not saying it would be easy but Pit can do it.

 

[Lord Exor]

Metaknight = Melee Sheik

Very strong character who is easy to pick up and ***** most of the cast.

Quite a few counters/even matchups/almost even matchups were discovered for Sheik when people learned how to fight sheik properly and she stopped dominating tournaments (although she does still do quite well). The same could happen for Metaknight.

Too bad MK has more going for him than Melee Sheik ever did.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, no, Meta Knight doesn't. It's just that the rest of the cast has less going for them than most of the Melee cast did.

 

[NeoCrono]

yup. I main Pit and do you think I would ever beat a MK in a tourney? Esp since m2k lives so close? Believe it or not, MK is the only one I really have trouble with. I think I could stand a chance with all of the other characters. Not saying it would be easy but Pit can do it.

Off topic, but your video (pit uses a nunchuck) is awesome. I want to take pit as a secondary now.
Thanks

 

[kupo15]

cool thanks! Those are the reasons why snake isnt a problem and such. Unfortunately they dont work well on MK...nothing does lol.

 

[rehab]

If Metaknight is beatable, and looking at matchups and history, he is indeed beatable, what's the basis for banning him? Just the game being more fun can't be the only thing, since it's subjective.

 

[da K.I.D.]

bboy, if you want to be taken seriously you have to say things in a manner that shows that you are listening and responding to other peoples opinions and you have not done that. there have been many instances in this thread where you quote somebody and use it as your own argument and than when i try to either help you, educate you, or refute your post, you repeat the same post and say that your issue hasnt been addressed, and now that i quit responding to you, you throw a hissyfit about how nobodys listening ot you. you also tend to post incorrect info here frequently. and than show no signs of regret when you are proven wrong. example. we were talking about DK versus tornado. you said DK ***** tornado with range. i responded with the fact that once MK is inside of that range, DK becomes very punishable and can be punished with anywhere from 5 to 8 tornados in a row. i also backed this statement with the fact that inui, an admittedly underaverage MK totally defeated Bum, possibly the best DK and one of the few pros that you actually know by name, in a tourney, at the highest level, by simply spamming tornado. you respond by ignoring me and reposting that Dk ***** tornado with range

thats not cool

another example:
you show your lack of knowledge when we say that MK can safely shuttle loop snake out of his cypher. info that has been known for 3 months now, and you try to find ways to disagree. if you dont know that kind of info, you shouldnt be disagreeing with knowledgable sources about it.

thats not a good look...
you need to mature, if you are going to stay here. you need to listen to other people whether they agree with you or not, and respond in a respectful manner. this rule not only applys to SWF but life in general. now, because i know your age, i can somewhat understand your actions, but that still does not make what you have done in this thread acceptable. you need to shape up, and act correctly

now if i have gotten through to you, i will ask the same thing that i asked yuna. please post a detailed and concise list of why you dont agree with the ban and i will do my best to debate with and educate you before i have to go to my next tourney at 4

 

[Santi]

I actually think my toon's game is where its at because MK is in the game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If Metaknight is beatable, and looking at matchups and history, he is indeed beatable, what's the basis for banning him? Just the game being more fun can't be the only thing, since it's subjective.

youre right fun is subjective. however, character viability is not

with Mk, the number of viable characters is 1 possibly 2 (snake, yoshi, take your pick...)
with out MK that list rises to all of top tier(if im not mistaken, Snake, D3, ROB, Wario, Falco, and marth), and anyone that counters or goes even with at least half of them. (my guess is about 20 in all.)

that is why people are banning MK

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

just taking this opportunity to remind everyone that brin has stated before that he's 14 and not 16-21 (and even older) like the rest of us. there's a specific tact that should be used in cases like this, and calling the person childish and ignorant (remember, 14 years old) isn't it.

also, i'm starting to think a great reason to ban metaknight would be to send sakurai a message about neglecting the competitive community. he designs a game to screw us over, we institute a widespread ban on his favorite creation.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I actually think my toon's game is where its at because MK is in the game.

i hate to be rude, but theres really no way to prove that...

sorry (not sarcasm)

 

[Santi]

i hate to be rude, but theres really no way to prove that...

sorry (not sarcasm)

I know that. It was my opinion, thats why I said " I think".
I didn't say, "Well its a fact that my Toon Link plays like it does now because of MetaKnight."

I was stating my opinion on why my game is where it's at now because I have to play against a much more faster character.

Like I can tech so much better now because I have to try to survive all those stage spikes hit on me by a character that has a great gimp game. I don't believe I would be able to do that if I didn't have to try to recover against a character with 6 jumps and a superior air game.

 

[rehab]

youre right fun is subjective. however, character viability is not

with Mk, the number of viable characters is 1 possibly 2 (snake, yoshi, take your pick...)
with out MK that list rises to all of top tier(if im not mistaken, Snake, D3, ROB, Wario, Falco, and marth), and anyone that counters or goes even with at least half of them. (my guess is about 20 in all.)

that is why people are banning MK

Good to get a response haha. My problem is, I'd heard those other matches aren't so hopeless as unwinnable, they're just disadvantaged. Are we getting match-up numbers from different places? I hadn't heard of any of them being drastically below 60-40, which I don't think should constitute a ban. Are we talking about whether those numbers are actually all leaning more towards the red than that, or whether having a bunch of 60-40's indeed makes him bannable?

 

[brinboy789]

bboy, if you want to be taken seriously you have to say things in a manner that shows that you are listening and responding to other peoples opinions and you have not done that. there have been many instances in this thread where you quote somebody and use it as your own argument and than when i try to either help you, educate you, or refute your post, you repeat the same post and say that your issue hasnt been addressed, and now that i quit responding to you, you throw a hissyfit about how nobodys listening ot you. you also tend to post incorrect info here frequently. and than show no signs of regret when you are proven wrong. example. we were talking about DK versus tornado. you said DK ***** tornado with range. i responded with the fact that once MK is inside of that range, DK becomes very punishable and can be punished with anywhere from 5 to 8 tornados in a row. i also backed this statement with the fact that inui, an admittedly underaverage MK totally defeated Bum, possibly the best DK and one of the few pros that you actually know by name, in a tourney, at the highest level, by simply spamming tornado. you respond by ignoring me and reposting that Dk ***** tornado with range

thats not cool

another example:
you show your lack of knowledge when we say that MK can safely shuttle loop snake out of his cypher. info that has been known for 3 months now, and you try to find ways to disagree. if you dont know that kind of info, you shouldnt be disagreeing with knowledgable sources about it.

thats not a good look...
you need to mature, if you are going to stay here. you need to listen to other people whether they agree with you or not, and respond in a respectful manner. this rule not only applys to SWF but life in general. now, because i know your age, i can somewhat understand your actions, but that still does not make what you have done in this thread acceptable. you need to shape up, and act correctly

now if i have gotten through to you, i will ask the same thing that i asked yuna. please post a detailed and concise list of why you dont agree with the ban and i will do my best to debate with and educate you before i have to go to my next tourney at 4

look, da kid, does my username say yuna? do i look like a master debator to you? im just an average smasher whos gotten flamed so many freakin times in this thread that ive given up.
you want a detailed list of why i think MK shouldnt be banned right?

~ the metagame isnt fully mature. melees been out for atleast 8 years and still AT's are being discovered.
~ MK has at LEAST 1 neutral, yoshi, and snake and DK too, arguably.
~ Yun, from SF3, had it worse then MK. he was in same scenario, except he had only 1 arguable neutral.
~ MK is not hindering other chars metagame. in fact. when a new AT is discovered, the first question is "does it work on MK", as someone stated before. that is not a bad thing, its just that MK is popular. since he is top tier, people should try and develop strats agains MK.
~ Dojo's amazingly epic post. look above and page before
~ a char ban is a last resort. we have many options here.
~ weakness: light weight, slow aerial movement, vulnerable after using every B move, not much killing moves, only reliable one is shuttle loop and possibily dsmash. gimping is usually how MK KO's

^
^
^
my list

i hate to be rude, but theres really no way to prove that...

sorry (not sarcasm)

i think hes saying that because of MK, and his "brokenness", his toon links gotten much better.

I recommend you avoid debating if you are unable to effectively support your points.

how can i not support my points? all of them are proven facts. ive never said anything "personal" or stated my opinion

 

[Zankoku]

I recommend you avoid debating if you are unable to effectively support your points.

 

[choknater]

I support brinboy. He knows what he is talking about. Those sum up pretty much all the arguments that support not banning MK, that's the side I'm on.

~ the metagame isnt fully mature. melees been out for atleast 8 years and still AT's are being discovered.
~ MK has at LEAST 1 neutral, yoshi, and snake and DK too, arguably.
~ Yun, from SF3, had it worse then MK. he was in same scenario, except he had only 1 arguable neutral.
~ MK is not hindering other chars metagame. in fact. when a new AT is discovered, the first question is "does it work on MK", as someone stated before. that is not a bad thing, its just that MK is popular. since he is top tier, people should try and develop strats agains MK.
~ Dojo's amazingly epic post. look above and page before
~ a char ban is a last resort. we have many options here.
~ weakness: light weight, slow aerial movement, vulnerable after using every B move, not much killing moves, only reliable one is shuttle loop and possibily dsmash. gimping is usually how MK KO's

So what are the points for banning metaknight.

- He is too good?
- No disadvantages?
- Tournaments would be better off without him, because he stagnates the metagame??

Not nearly as strong. Especially that last one. Why do we need to RUSH the metagame? Things can develop at their own pace, even with MK on the table.

 

[kupo15]

I think one of the best arguments for the ban is that fact that Inui's 2 week old meta destroyed some excellent players when he couldnt with his normal main. Idk where I feel about the topic, if anything, a soft ban trial period? If not, there are other TOs that have already not allowed MK so we can see how things work out there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

kupo, we've been through the inui example already and concluded that it proves nothing but the fact, that MK is easy to learn...

 

[Dojo]

Which still doesn't have enough liability to constitute a ban.
Especially when it's a player like Inui who is very skilled at this game.

 

[choknater]

Inui example (along with Melee1 beating Infinity) just exist to be funny LOL.

MK is easy to learn.

Sonic and Yoshi are hard to learn.

There is ALWAYS an early-metagame correlation in the tier list between higher tiers and harder to learn characters.

It's whether or not the players of those characters can step it up and bring it out, AND place in tournaments.

It's more likely to happen than it was in Melee... it'll eventually happen.

That "stagnating the metagame" crap is dumb. As long as there is time, the metagame will develop. Who cares if it develops slowly. Brawl won't change... things are gonna get better and better, and people will become more skilled.

Optomism, people.