The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Jigglymaster]

I lost to inui's MK fighting for 2nd place today.

who cares if Diddy does good on MK in FD. Dosn't matter if he banns it >___>

 

[S.B.Soldier]

hmm the 4v4 thing isn't that bad of a suggestion... and plus like i said before... metaknight can be defeated, use this a fueling a fire for challenges to come.

 

[Ryan-K]

LOL at meta knight having few killers

his nair is amazingly strong, his fsmash is strong although it has some startup, his dsmash is practically instant with no lag, his up b's horizontal knockback is ridiculous.

he also has a decent killing throw, and all this aren't considering his ridiculous edgeguarding options between an auto up b gimp on snake and how it work on other characters. and his amazing dair.

mk wouldn't be balanced in 4v4 either because of his ******** mobility and range and how his tornado has a dumb tendency to suck people in if they try to attack. he can run away from almost anything between his natural speed and tornado and his roll.

 

[_Phloat_]

The current MK's might not do to well in a 4 way, because they don't play 4 ways. Once they learn to ledgecamp, team up on people, retreat tornado, ledgecamp, and pick off easy kills, MK wouldn't be any worse off.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

edit: forgot to mention...@dark sonic: if wario had an infinite onMK, the matchup would still be in MK's favor? i don think so...

How can you not think so? IC have an infinite on everyone and not all of there match ups are in there advantage.

 

[brinboy789]

LOL at meta knight having few killers

his nair is amazingly strong, his fsmash is strong although it has some startup, his dsmash is practically instant with no lag, his up b's horizontal knockback is ridiculous.

he also has a decent killing throw, and all this aren't considering his ridiculous edgeguarding options between an auto up b gimp on snake and how it work on other characters. and his amazing dair.

mk wouldn't be balanced in 4v4 either because of his ******** mobility and range and how his tornado has a dumb tendency to suck people in if they try to attack. he can run away from almost anything between his natural speed and tornado and his roll.

his nair is damaging, not for killing. but it does have some good knockback. fsmash sucks, i wouldnt recommend any MK use it. the lag isnt worth the knockback. dsmash pwns, but not that good knockback. kills @ around 120+ fresh. shuttle loop is really good for killing, probably his best kiling move. gimping is his main way to kill. and i thought 4v4 isnt in tourney play? its just 1v1 or 2v2

 

[Zankoku]

fsmash is pretty good - its startup is slow, but it's actually safe on shieldhit. Killing at 120% isn't good knockback to you? Not to mention its relatively low trajectory...

lol nair not for killing

 

[goldemblem]

Metaknight it's broken, and that is it, It's incredibly easy to pick up, has an amazing edgeguarding game, can't be gymped (unless you are really stupid using meta) and has inclredible Kill% to Speed ratio attacks, and also almost all of his moves are incredibly hard to punish unless the meat messes up, but against a good meta it's almost imposible, the last 3 tourneys i have went i lost to metas, I play a lot against a metas, i have a friend who has a little lower skill level than me, but he picked meta as his main because people were ****** him with meta so he started ****** me, and i picked ddd, lucario, rob, pit, dk, diddy in order to counter him, and i could to some degree, but now he is used matchups against those characters so i don't have a "counter" anymore, I then picked Falco, G&W, IC and Snake, but my friend has become incredibly good at gymping and has become extremely agressive with meta, i am lucky if i can take 1 stock from his meta, and when he picks other characters i usually can beat him.
So? what do i do when he picks meta?
I pick meta too, and i am getting good with him and now we have even matchups...but i freaking hate meta and don't want to use him, so when he picks meta i rather get ***** than picking meta.

So, does meta deserves a bann? In my oppinion yes, without a doubt

 

[Overswarm]

fsmash is pretty good - its startup is slow, but it's actually safe on shieldhit. Killing at 120% isn't good knockback to you? Not to mention its relatively low trajectory...

lol nair not for killing

Brinboy is 14 and doesn't know what he is talking about and mains metaknight

 

[Jigglymaster]

his nair is damaging, not for killing. but it does have some good knockback. fsmash sucks, i wouldnt recommend any MK use it. the lag isnt worth the knockback. dsmash pwns, but not that good knockback. kills @ around 120+ fresh. shuttle loop is really good for killing, probably his best kiling move. gimping is his main way to kill. and i thought 4v4 isnt in tourney play? its just 1v1 or 2v2

A good MK can make a well space F-smash and it hurts.

 

[brinboy789]

fsmash is pretty good - its startup is slow, but it's actually safe on shieldhit. Killing at 120% isn't good knockback to you? Not to mention its relatively low trajectory...

lol nair not for killing

nair is probably used for gimping, as is every single one of MK's aerials. dsmash i said IS a killing move, i just think shuttle loop is more reliable. and fsmash...its not worth the lag. gimpign + shuttle loop & dsmash is the way to go.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Brinboy is 14 and doesn't know what he is talking about and mains metaknight

wait he MAINS metaknight and knows so little about him?

baffling.

 

[Overswarm]

nair Is Probably Used For Gimping, As Is Every Single One Of Mk's Aerials. Dsmash I Said Is A Killing Move, I Just Think Shuttle Loop Is More Reliable. And Fsmash...its Not Worth The Lag. Gimpign + Shuttle Loop & Dsmash Is The Way To Go.

you Have No Idea What You Are Talking About Stop Typing

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

Brinboy is 14 and doesn't know what he is talking about and mains metaknight

^
QFT

Not that that's a valid debate point, but well stated all the same.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you Have No Idea What You Are Talking About Stop Typing

why? he's doing more for our side by being against us than he could ever do otherwise.

 

[brinboy789]

-sigh- this is what i get for trying to stay on topic. i get flamed. wow. whatever, if already posted my arguements. you guys can go have a merry time ranting on MK, only to find MK not being banned, irdc, im just trying to help, and i get flamed.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

you know, i was originally supportive but reluctant as far as banning mk.

after playing a handful of mks over the past few days, my position has shifted closer to a "get that ***** the **** out of here as soon as ****ing possible" type of thing.

*is tired of getting two stocked by players who are obviously worse than him*

 

[JustNoOne]

-sigh- this is what i get for trying to stay on topic. i get flamed. wow. whatever, if already posted my arguements. you guys can go have a merry time ranting on MK, only to find MK not being banned, irdc, im just trying to help, and i get flamed.

You're trying to help, but you do not know what you are talking about. You are getting flamed from not knowing the facts, that is why you are getting flamed, you are not getting flamed because you are staying on topic. Get that in your head.

 

[brinboy789]

You're trying to help, but you do not know what you are talking about. You are getting flamed from not knowing the facts, that is why you are getting flamed, you are not getting flamed because you are staying on topic. Get that in your head.

were talking about kill moves right? i said shuttle loop, possibly dsmash, and gimping are his main ways of killing. then someone says they think fsmash is good. i say i dont. i get flamed. thats the epic story of the last 2 pages. and besides, if you look @ any good MK's video, you will probably never see fsmash, or see it maybe once or twice. never consistent like dsmash. why? because it sucks. nair has KO power, but i dont think its that useful until higher %'s. pikas nair is stronger >.<.

 

[JustNoOne]

his nair is damaging, not for killing. but it does have some good knockback. fsmash sucks, i wouldnt recommend any MK use it. the lag isnt worth the knockback. dsmash pwns, but not that good knockback. kills @ around 120+ fresh. shuttle loop is really good for killing, probably his best kiling move. gimping is his main way to kill. and i thought 4v4 isnt in tourney play? its just 1v1 or 2v2

Those are the things you need to correct.

They are in bold.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

were talking about kill moves right? i said shuttle loop, possibly dsmash, and gimping are his main ways of killing. then someone says they think fsmash is good. i say i dont. i get flamed. thats the epic story of the last 2 pages. and besides, if you look @ any good MK's video, you will probably never see fsmash, or see it maybe once or twice. never consistent like dsmash. why? because it sucks. nair has KO power, but i dont think its that useful until higher %'s. pikas nair is stronger >.<.

M2K your 1 of 2 MK tournament winners uses Fsmash a lot. Do you even think before you type? I know a lot of people don't think before they speak but its a different story when your typing this out.

 

[Overswarm]

why? he's doing more for our side by being against us than he could ever do otherwise.

Good call.

 

[Rsn6475]

This is my off topic/to the side opinion, haven't read the nearly 300 pages of comments so sorry if someone already called this but..

Metaknight is obviously good and people seem to have maximized his potential fairly quickly since brawl came out. Don't you think it's possible that other characters will start to rise up later? Brawl is still fairly new and there is unexplored grounds. I say: Give Metaknight a chance to be beat down by other characters and their developing game potential. Could say more, but I'll leave it at that for this post.

 

[brinboy789]

M2K your 1 of 2 MK tournament winners uses Fsmash a lot. Do you even think before you type? I know a lot of people don't think before they speak but its a different story when your typing this out.

please, take your own advice. i searched M2K MK on youtube and clicked on first vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UOfWAVKu7k
he used fsmash 3 times. 2 times, he hit because of epicmindgames, and once he missed. he never KO ed with it.

Good call.

i noticed that all you do is flame. why dont you do something that benefits this thread?

Those are the things you need to correct.

They are in bold.

in this vid that i posted aboev M2K used nair and TL was around 140 and he didnt die. but he was sent across the stage, so i guess that it would kill, but its @ 140. well alright, nair has killing power, but i still think that people should use dsmash + shuttle loop more because theyre better. and dsmash kills @ around 120 fresh whats wrong about that? it has decent knockback. good knockback really, and is crazy fast.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

please, take your own advice. i searched M2K MK on youtube and clicked on first vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UOfWAVKu7k
he used fsmash 3 times. 2 times, he hit because of epicmindgames, and once he missed. he never KO ed with it.



i noticed that all you do is flame. why dont you do something that benefits this thread?



in this vid that i posted aboev M2K used nair and TL was around 140 and he didnt die. but he was sent across the stage, so i guess that it would kill, but its @ 140. well alright, nair has killing power, but i still think that people should use dsmash + shuttle loop more because theyre better. and dsmash kills @ around 120 fresh whats wrong about that? it has decent knockback. good knockback really, and is crazy fast.

ZOMG May 30 08 you're right I APOLOGIZE

Spoiler

/sarcasm

M2K doesn't even like being recorded in tournament matches GL finding a recent video.

 

[brinboy789]

ZOMG May 30 08 you're right I APOLOGIZE

Spoiler

/sarcasm

M2K doesn't even like being recorded in tournament matches GL finding a recent video.

oh. fine ill look for another vid

edit: none. the latest is july and i doubt that you would accept that. how would you know if theres no youtube vids?

 

[JustNoOne]

his nair is damaging, not for killing. but it does have some good knockback. fsmash sucks, i wouldnt recommend any MK use it. the lag isnt worth the knockback. dsmash pwns, but not that good knockback. kills @ around 120+ fresh. shuttle loop is really good for killing, probably his best kiling move. gimping is his main way to kill. and i thought 4v4 isnt in tourney play? its just 1v1 or 2v2

in this vid that i posted aboev M2K used nair and TL was around 140 and he didnt die. but he was sent across the stage, so i guess that it would kill, but its @ 140. well alright, nair has killing power, but i still think that people should use dsmash + shuttle loop more because theyre better. and dsmash kills @ around 120 fresh whats wrong about that? it has decent knockback. good knockback really, and is crazy fast.

Rule 1: Don't contradict yourself. If you do, you should say sorry and acknowledge the person that you contradicted yourself and also admit you were wrong.

 

[brinboy789]

Rule 1: Don't contradict yourself. If you do, you should say sorry and acknowledge the person that you contradicted yourself and also admit you were wrong.

i said that you convinced me that nair is a killing move, and dsmash has decent/good knockback. isnt that what you said?

 

[Overswarm]

i noticed that all you do is flame. why dont you do something that benefits this thread?

All I do is flame you.... and by flame I mean point out you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

oh. fine ill look for another vid

edit: none. the latest is july and i doubt that you would accept that. how would you know if theres no youtube vids?

I saw him play in person he used it to edge guard very often.

 

[brinboy789]

All I do is flame you.... and by flame I mean point out you don't know what you're talking about.

quote what i said. and if you quote the nair isnt killing or dsmash isnt "that good", somebody already convinced me out of that

 

[ADHD]

just ban him, eventually, but not yet because his metagame is going to get better and better but he's just not that good as he will be currently

 

[JustNoOne]

i said that you convinced me that nair is a killing move, and dsmash has decent/good knockback. isnt that what you said?

Yes pretty much, just please post more intelligently; if you do not know what you are talking about, don't say anything. Know your facts before talking and in the end, you won't sound like a person that does not know what she/he is talking about. Kk? Ja? Good.

Have a happy 14 year old life.

 

[brinboy789]

Yes pretty much, just please post more intelligently; if you do not know what you are talking about, don't say anything. Know your facts before talking and in the end, you won't sound like a person that does not know what she/he is talking about. Kk? Ja? Good.

Have a happy 14 year old life.

when i said dsmash doesnt have that good knockback, i meant like it isnt good compared to fsmashes knockback, but w/e. nair does 19%and is lightning quick so i would use for damage, not killing but w/e

 

[goldemblem]

the metagame it's centered around metaknight, you either try to fight meta and look out for counters or join the whores and use meta, and nobody can tell me otherwise, if meta it banned in my oppinion the most broken after meta is G&W but even he has bad matchups, all other characters have bad matchups and can be countered by counterpicking character or stage, all except metaknight, he excels againts every1 in everywere

 

[Zankoku]

when i said dsmash doesnt have that good knockback, i meant like it isnt good compared to fsmashes knockback, but w/e. nair does 19%and is lightning quick so i would use for damage, not killing but w/e

Meta Knight's nair is pretty ****ing strong for such a fast and all-reaching attack... practically like Melee Peach's nair, actually.

And dsmash's backside hit has greater knockback than fsmash, if I remember correctly.

 

[goldemblem]

when i said dsmash doesnt have that good knockback, i meant like it isnt good compared to fsmashes knockback, but w/e. nair does 19%and is lightning quick so i would use for damage, not killing but w/e

You sir, suck...

Dsmash doesn't have the knockback of fsmash, but has way less lag and covers both of your sides, even if it does not kill it gives you a great position to gymp your recovery, and why the hell do you use Nair for damage? you have Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair, Nair is for killing or to set your opponent to an edgeguard, even if 2 or 3 moves meta had were nerfed he would still be a godtier ****

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think its interesting how people who argue MK mains moving to the next more broken character always say someone different.

1st its Snake then Marth now G&W. with so many different opinion there will obviously be more variety with out MK not 8 of the top 10 are snakes or what ever.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumbrodeus, tell my youropinion, please. I asked Yuna and he said, if the Metagame / the MK doinance doesn't get worse he shouldn't be banned. Do you think the same? Let's assume it's Jan '09 and we'd have to decide, whether he must be banned or not. The Metagame hasn't changed though. Would you ban him or not?

No, but only because your timeframe is off.

Set that Jan 2010, and the answer would be yes. If the timeframe hasn't changed the metagame at all, the odds of full development are incredibly high, and I'd say yes.


From a more pragmatic prospective (assuming metagame changes do not change MK in relation to the rest of the cast):

If the metagame grinds to a halt between now and April 2010, I'd say probably yes.

It does depend on how fast the metagame is evolving at that time, but barring a very extreme case, that seems like the minimum for the metagame to mature is april 2010, at which point a ban would be warranted.


If it is still evolving, then, I'll have to see how fast the development is.


But overall, I consider MK bannable, but now is FAR TOO SOON to know if he will always be that way, so we cannot ban.

chok, do you see now, unlike yuna, i believe that im in the majority when i say that video games, even when played for money, the express purpose is for it to be fun. And once you take that away, the game is meaningless, and is the same as that dead end 6X6 cubicle job that nobody wants

and i know hes going to accuse me of lying again but its a fact that yuna in so many words said
fun is for scrubs.
and i cant agree to someone who uses logic like that

...

I'm sorry, that's simply not a competitive mindset, and baning is a competitive measure.

Period.

Fun is a result of competition (you will find this in most competitive players), but it is a result, not the cause of decisions.

Arguing for fun has no place in a competitive discussion because fun is not the objective of competitive play, it is merely a known result that is good.

Dojo: stuff

The fundamental flaw in this line of reasoning is this, "it can be used for any character that doesn't have a win button".

Everybody can be beaten, given enough of a difference in skill, but that doesn't mean that the character isn't broken.

Again, Reductio Ad Absurdum, don't like Akuma, tough, don't get caught in his air fireball trap. He is beatable, plenty of people do it, you just don't have the skills.

Dojo is correct in that it's too soon, but the fact that MK is beatable is patently irrelevant, the question is, "is he hard enough to beat by enough characters to make him overcentralize the metagame"?

how can i not support my points? all of them are proven facts. ive never said anything "personal" or stated my opinion

Doesn't matter if your "facts" are wrong.

lol im not saying that he should be banned, im just saying that your theory works for him too. and yes the tornado is punishable. i was facing an online MK yesterday, and he spammed tornado. i won (joke match but still), and i was falcon. i predicted his tornado since he spammed it, and was able to get some fsmashes and dsmashs in because of the aerial vulnerability after the tornado. and you can stomp the top of the tornado with dair ^^.

Because he was stupid about it. A good mk won't tap the b button for it unless they make contact.

Dair is very predictable.

were talking about kill moves right? i said shuttle loop, possibly dsmash, and gimping are his main ways of killing. then someone says they think fsmash is good. i say i dont. i get flamed. thats the epic story of the last 2 pages. and besides, if you look @ any good MK's video, you will probably never see fsmash, or see it maybe once or twice. never consistent like dsmash. why? because it sucks. nair has KO power, but i dont think its that useful until higher %'s. pikas nair is stronger >.<.

Because you're wrong, and you're an MK main, you should know better.

F-smash has a number of mind-games uses because it's lag is more then the rest, but not too much. It's also safe.

Nair has great priority, kills at low percents, has great reach, and is safe.


edit:

I think its interesting how people who argue MK mains moving to the next more broken character always say someone different.

1st its Snake then Marth now G&W. with so many different opinion there will obviously be more variety with out MK not 8 of the top 10 are snakes or what ever.

*Bolding added

Huh? Marth wasn't "more broken" or even "equivilently broken", just the new best.

The whole tangent was a reductio ad absurdum because of calls for bans based on popularity and lack of disadvantageous match-ups, something that Marth should have as the new best.

Regardless, checking Marth's match-ups, he is by far the best candidate, barring signifigant changes in the others' metagames. We already went through this.

 

[brinboy789]

You sir, suck...

Dsmash doesn't have the knockback of fsmash, but has way less lag and covers both of your sides, even if it does not kill it gives you a great position to gymp your recovery, and why the hell do you use Nair for damage? you have Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair, Nair is for killing or to set your opponent to an edgeguard, even if 2 or 3 moves meta had were nerfed he would still be a godtier ****

did i say dsmash had the nkockback of fsmash? and did i deny of of those points that you stated above ._. except for nair, i use it for damage because for gods sake it dose 19% and its lightning fast, and can be comboed with his other aerials.