The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Arturito_Burrito]

What does E have to do with anything? I told you to read the last sentence because he excluded nubs.

 

[brinboy789]

What does E have to do with anything? I told you to read the last sentence because he excluded nubs.

lol crap ._. i meant word. and yea i was jsut saying. it doesnt have anything to do with arguement.

 

[goldemblem]

lol do you guys know who that is. here, lemme show you a vid of him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtFaTsn5apQ
one of the best players of melee
i heard hes badass in brawl too with kirby.
i would think that he plays some pretty good MK's

I know, who the hell M2K is... don't treat us as a noob and don't come with that excuse i know M2K it's a great player, but who cares? that does not make meta less broken

 

[brinboy789]

I know, who the hell M2K is... don't treat us as a noob and don't come with that excuse i know M2K it's a great player, but who cares? that does not make meta less broken

thats not M2K...thats Chudat. i never said M2K being a great player makes MK less broken. that doesnt even make sense. lol where did M2K come from?

 

[goldemblem]

lol crap ._. i meant word. and yea i was jsut saying. it doesnt have anything to do with arguement.

dude, now you are just embarassing yourself, I don't care what you say, meta is overpowered and even a 14 year old kid has to see that >_>

 

[brinboy789]

dude, now you are just embarassing yourself, I don't care what you say, meta is overpowered and even a 14 year old kid has to see that >_>

for the last time, did i ever say MK wasnt overpowered? and respond to my other post plz

 

[kupo15]

Yea, when a friend asks if I want to go to a tourney, I say "sure but I cant beat Metas with Pit so whats the point of going when you know your going to lose?"

But I have picked up MK myself but there is no way my Meta could compete with m2ks meta who is at every tourney. :\

 

[Grunt]

Brinboy...
-_-
ChuDat

 

[goldemblem]

for the last time, did i ever say MK wasnt overpowered? and respond to my other post plz

better read what i wrote before that...don't be lazy and turn back to the other page

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

smashchu is not chu dat.

EDIT: ****ing... grunt beat me to it because i was too busy watching that combo video brin posted.

 

[goldemblem]

the last tourney i went had 134 people, in the top 8 were 5 meta mains, and other 2 had meta as a secondary during the tourney, the other one used lucario and rob...so that pretty much says everything..I lost to a meta and then in losers bracket i lost to a meta again...I finished 14 tough...

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy...
-_-
ChuDat

.________________________.

i stand corrected. ignore everything i said for the last 2 pages. i thought superchu = chudat...

 

[brinboy789]

the last tourney i went had 134 people, in the top 8 were 5 meta mains, and other 2 had meta as a secondary during the tourney, the other one used lucario and rob...so that pretty much says everything..I lost to a meta and then in losers bracket i lost to a meta again...I finished 14 tough...

i went to a tourney, there was like 4 MK mains out of 50 players, they all lost before semis, cept me and somebody else, which we both lost in the semis

 

[DRaGZ]

lol.

You should just stop brinboy, you're not getting anywhere through your arguments.

 

[brinboy789]

lol.

You should just stop brinboy, you're not getting anywhere through your arguments.

oh god. time to get flamed again! i think i could get used to this.

tyme for moar insults, no logic and reason! funfunfun.

 

[Browny]

guys, srsly. set brinboy to ignore. smartest thing ive ever done on this forum and makes this thread 9000 times less ********

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

when you are constantly getting flamed.... it might make one stop and think. "hmm... is it a coincidence that all sorts of people are flaming me and only me out of the blue... or am I doing something to bring it upon myself"


and for the record... you aren't getting flamed... people are being honest and are not really being that mean about it. you deserve everything you're getting, brinboy. Go unn00b up somewhere and then come back.

 

[mariofanpm12]

I wonder if this Thread is really even getting us any where...?

Maybe we should just leave this up to the SBR(Smash Back Room).

 

[brinboy789]

**** this, im outta this thread.
this is MY prediction
once MK is safe, you are all gonna go NO WAIIIIIIII HES BROKEN WAHHHHHH
im not gonna say i told ya so but...if you just listened to me isntead of flamed, we might have actually had an agreement, but ok, irdc what you all think. i tried to explain, but all i get are insults. i get "no your wrong" on all my arguements most of the time w/out arguements. oh, w/e, idc. you all can have a good time wait for it. MK will not be banned!

 

[TokiDoki]

Well tournament results show it but I still don't think he should be banned or maybe he should >.<

 

[Zankoku]

**** this, im outta this thread.
this is MY prediction
once MK is safe, you are all gonna go NO WAIIIIIIII HES BROKEN WAHHHHHH
im not gonna say i told ya so but...if you just listened to me isntead of flamed, we might have actually had an agreement, but ok, irdc what you all think. i tried to explain, but all i get are insults. i get "no your wrong" on all my arguements most of the time w/out arguements. oh, w/e, idc. you all can have a good time wait for it. MK will not be banned!

I'm completely fine with this, as long as you stick to your promise of staying out of this thread.

 

[goldemblem]

I'm completely fine with this, as long as you stick to your promise of staying out of this thread.

goldemblem agrees with this.

Also i don't think meta will be banned so soon but in a year probably he will

 

[goldemblem]

brinboy, come back, we need some1 to flame :/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

brinboy, come back, we need some1 to flame :/

I will kill you.

okay.. what still even needs to be discussed here people?

 

[Foxy]

I think that Brinboy aught to come back.

With this new chaingrab, Wario goes 69:144 with MK. Is this awesome yes/no?

 

[Punishment Divine]

SmashChu: You have no right to add input. You said yourself that you're only a casual*** so why are you making like you know what should/shouldn't be banned in tournaments? Have you ever been to a tournament and lost to two Meta Knights who you knew were significantly worse than you just based off character advantage? Have you been forced to pick up MK just to place decent in tournaments? Just the fact that you said GANONDORF, a character seen as nonviable against almost anyone, might be a counter to Meta Knight, who probably has a 90-10 advantage in the matchup, speaks miles for your character. Please attend tournaments and read more before posting any opinion.

brinboy: Thank God, I hope you're not around anymore to read this

adumbrodeus: I disagree. I concur with what Arturito says about the whole "scrubs attending" factor, but also think about this: Meta Knight is the best character. No one denies this. If there's nothing but a group of pros left, you'll see those who haven't converted, convert. What's the point of getting good with a character you KNOW is worse if your sole goal is to win money? The tournament results will turn from MOSTLY MK to ALL MK. Even consider what MLG's are going to look like. What will be the point of using anyone who is on a whole different level than the ever-great MK with so much money on the line?

 

[infomon]

okay.. what still even needs to be discussed here people?

Objective criteria for how to measure if a character is ban-worthy.

Unfortunately, how you'd decide on such criteria depends on your opinion about why a character should be banned. The differing opinions about this can't seem to be resolved.

But even if we can't agree about why a ban should ever be imposed, we still might be able to collectively accept one set of measurement criteria for a ban. The only person to actually provide a legitimate possible set of ban-conditions here has been Overswarm, who had a 9-point list. For a while we were discussing the details of it, but then this thread degenerated to noise.

 

[Exia 00]

I dont know how this works but, why can whoever is hosting the tourney decide on if MK is in or out ? Doesnt that simplify things ? I can see a few problems being created by this as well. Or is this about balancing the game? (or trying to atleast)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think OS had a very good criteria for it. It wasn't just has no bad match ups it was like 8 Different things that had to be met but its like over 100 pages back now I think. I'll look for it later on if no one does it for me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Objective criteria for how to measure if a character is ban-worthy.

Unfortunately, how you'd decide on such criteria depends on your opinion about why a character should be banned. The differing opinions about this can't seem to be resolved.

But even if we can't agree about why a ban should ever be imposed, we still might be able to collectively accept one set of measurement criteria for a ban. The only person to actually provide a legitimate possible set of ban-conditions here has been Overswarm, who had a 9-point list. For a while we were discussing the details of it, but then this thread degenerated to noise.

good point. but you know... the second we decide on that, we'll start disagreeing on whether or not MK actually meets those criteria

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

 

[Zelc]

Objective criteria for how to measure if a character is ban-worthy.

What about just whether the character's worst matchup is the mirror, and has a better matchup against every other character? If this is the case, no other character choice meets or beats the mirror as a counterpick against the character. This means when everyone's playing to win, the metagame will eventually devolve into just that character being used, which is undesirable.

This can be a good starting point, followed by some criteria for making sure we've got the matchups correct.


ETA: Overswarm's criteria is here.

1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities

 

[Julz]

7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list

I don't really understand these two. Also, how is "played competitively" defined? Why did he choose "3/4 of highest ranking characters"? Does the character over-centralise by dominating 3/4 of the highest ranking cast?

 

[Foxy]

Unfortunately, there are two main mindsets of people in these debates, and both are valid, as I've held each at one point or another:

Anti-Ban: These people understand that you simply DO NOT ban video game characters at all with the exception of one that simply destroys the game and is equivalent to "godmode" (aka, Akuma or if MK went 90:10 against the whole cast). This is definitely true. There's no refutation for this; banning a character is simply uncalled for in MK's case, no matter how top-tier he is.

Pro-Ban: These folks understand that ONLY good can come from banning MK - in fact, lots of good can come of it. It would undoubtedly increase tournament viability for most of the cast, especially low tiers. Players would no longer be forced to second MK as well. The most important pro, however, is that it would de-centralize the metagame and give other characters with potential the chance to receive development from skilled/experienced/knowledgeable players.

So, there you go. Impossible to make either concede because they are both right.

 

[Vulcan55]

OSs criteria is a load of ****.

It's the exact same as saying:

BAN CRITERIA:
-Has a cape.
-Said cape turns into bat wings.
-Has a sword
-Said sword multiple smaller swords on it.
-Said character is Blue.
-Said character has a mask on.
-Said character's name is Metaknight.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Unfortunately, there are two main mindsets of people in these debates, and both are valid, as I've held each at one point or another:

Anti-Ban: These people understand that you simply DO NOT ban video game characters at all with the exception of one that simply destroys the game and is equivalent to "godmode" (aka, Akuma or if MK went 90:10 against the whole cast). This is definitely true. There's no refutation for this; banning a character is simply uncalled for in MK's case, no matter how top-tier he is.

Pro-Ban: These folks understand that ONLY good can come from banning MK - in fact, lots of good can come of it. It would undoubtedly increase tournament viability for most of the cast, especially low tiers. Players would no longer be forced to second MK as well. The most important pro, however, is that it would de-centralize the metagame and give other characters with potential the chance to receive development from skilled/experienced/knowledgeable players.

So, there you go. Impossible to make either concede because they are both right.

eh... but that argument you gave for "anti-ban" is wrong.

lot's of pokemon are banned from standard competition even though they are completely beatable just because they limit the metagame so much by existing.

I know it's a different kind of game entirely... but it's still a point.

OSs criteria is a load of ****.

It's the exact same as saying:

BAN CRITERIA:
-Has a cape.
-Said cape turns into bat wings.
-Has a sword
-Said sword multiple smaller swords on it.
-Said character is Blue.
-Said character has a mask on.
-Said character's name is Metaknight.

except for OS's reasons are actualy valid and have meaning.

yours is just a whiney attempt at sarcasm.

All of the reasons OS gave are ACTUAL reasons you might ban a character... but, overall, Zelc was on the right track:

when it gets to the point that there is no reason not to main MK then he should be banned. his WORST matchup is a mirror and nothing else is on the same level as that. it's not just that he has no BAD matchups, but he has no EVEN matchups either... they are all in his favour... against everyone.... on every stage.... always.

 

[salaboB]

But even if we can't agree about why a ban should ever be imposed, we still might be able to collectively accept one set of measurement criteria for a ban. The only person to actually provide a legitimate possible set of ban-conditions here has been Overswarm, who had a 9-point list. For a while we were discussing the details of it, but then this thread degenerated to noise.

I had one, they got lost in immediate noise though :/

And OS's list was better overall so I didn't try to get mine set up for discussion again.

Pro-Ban: These folks understand that ONLY good can come from banning MK - in fact, lots of good can come of it. It would undoubtedly increase tournament viability for most of the cast, especially low tiers. Players would no longer be forced to second MK as well. The most important pro, however, is that it would de-centralize the metagame and give other characters with potential the chance to receive development from skilled/experienced/knowledgeable players.

Right now I'm definitely pro-ban, and for me let me put it this way: Screw decentralizing the metagame, I just don't want to see Brawl die as a competitive fighter.

Basically, yes there need to be reasons to ban MK. But the reasons themselves aren't as important as the end goal, and it's why none of the anti-ban arguments have made a dent in my opinion: None of them address keeping the game stable as a competitive fighter long term.

 

[Foxy]

Sonic, do you know how much **** Smogon has gotten for premature banning? They banned wobb ffs, and he is mediocre at best in competitive Pokemon play.

Anyways, bans in Pokemon have little to do with Smash because we're not only talking about the realm of fighting games, but also within games that have a very limited cast size - such that removing a character would have a large impact. This is especially true because players spend time to learn the said character, where Pokemon players simply "use" their team members and giving up one just changes their strategy.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

OSs criteria is a load of ****.

It's the exact same as saying:

BAN CRITERIA:
-Has a cape.
-Said cape turns into bat wings.
-Has a sword
-Said sword multiple smaller swords on it.
-Said character is Blue.
-Said character has a mask on.
-Said character's name is Metaknight.

I'm guessing you think MK fits all those which is why you made such an exaggeration.

 

[Grunt]

The most bizarre thing about OS's requirements is the 1/2 year line. it fits MK perfectly.
who else was banned after 1/2 a year?
no one?
then where is he getting these statistics?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, do you know how much **** Smogon has gotten for premature banning? They banned wobb ffs, and he is mediocre at best in competitive Pokemon play.

wobb, played correctly, will be an insta-death for both pokes. Also, a wobb ditto is just effing annoying. worse than ANYTHING that can happen in brawl.

and they got **** for it. So what? they experiment with bans and unban if it's deemed that the ban is unecessary.

Wobb deserved to be ban... not because he was broken but because the implications of keeping him IN the standard gameplay were just plain undesirable.

and that doesn't change the fact that smogon religates ubers to their own teir. They aren't "unbeatable" but they are significantly better than those below them and, if they were allowed, you'd be forced to play as them or have an uphill battle.... sounds a lot like MK doesn't it?

Smogon doesn't deserve the bad rap you're giving it.