The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Umby]

Jeez, Anther, don't give the Sonic boards more leeway to be more ******** than they already are.

 

[TheNix]

Snowstalker's list of predicted changes looks pretty accurate to me, though it's impossible to tell how far anybody will move. I would expect Diddy to move above DK somewhere, for example, but I don't see DK dropping below the Ice Climbers. I also don't expect Pikachu, ROB, or Samus to move down.

I'll be shocked if Ike doesn't move down, or if Peach doesn't move up.

 

[Ori_bro]

Personally I think sonic should be at least Middle of mid tier, while ZSS should be high.
Sonic has waaay more potential than low tier. Doesn't really matter if the tier list reflects it, the char doesn't get any better or worse, but for accuracy, he's a lot better than anywhere near low tier XD.

shut up anther just cuz u can beat anyone and everyone with any character doesnt mean they should be moved up.......... but yeah sonic should be moved up a little more

 

[da K.I.D.]

messed up...

Actually he rosed up about 20 points this week. 1. He should be in D Rank next week, but Ankoku seems to always want to "Sink" it when Yoshi actually reaches that high.... Anyways, unless Mario/Ness also place, 2. Yoshi should be above every character in low tier excluding Sonic.

And personally, I think people these days put too much emphasis on Tournament Results, and Sonic is the perfect example. 3. Sonic has one of the worst matchups out there (And they even admit to that), yet he's in C Rank mostly due to the 4. sole purpose that roughly 40 Rabid Sonic/Sega Fanboys main him despite his obvious faults. For Yoshi, there's really only 3 or 4 that I know that go to Major tournaments regularly, because they actually put up and ignore the constant criticism over the months. His Matchups are also considerably 5. better and well even.

Some aspects on tournament results are accurate, but some of the time, it's just a blatant popularity contest. 6. Should Sonic REALLY Rise up because he's popular? Should Yoshi REALLY be punished because of the opposite? I believe facts, statistics, and matchups are more important aspects to focus on when placing tiers, rather than Tournament Standings.


Also remember that during Launch to about June, Yoshi was considered by the majority as the worst character in the game, even worser than C.Falcon. 7. If you ask me, thats a pretty difficult thing to shake off and convince people to actually use our character with. It's basically the same as being convicted for murder and trying to apply for a job, with it on your record. We also didn't have the early support because of it.

It's nothing but a constant struggle for us. You can't tell us that we aren't trying to place better in tournaments, they're just too few of us. 8. You can't tell us to get more people to try our character because of the constant slander. Top that off with Yoshi being one of the most technical characters in Brawl, and you can see why it's hard for us to get people to use our character and increase his ranks. I mean, who wants to main a character who is one of the hardest to use, 9. and at one point the worst character in the game?

If you Look at Yoshi, is there really anything wrong with him? He's got one of the 10. best recoveries in the game, 11. Fast and Rangy attacks, Combo's with Bair, One of the best Grab Games, 12. Decent Projectile, 13. Chaingrabs, 14. Grab Release Setups, A great Physical Defencive Game, 14. Well Balanced Matchups, 15. Combo Breakers, 16. Dair Lock, and Good Escapes. So what exactly is there to keep him so low on the tier list?

thats messed up that you would seriously say some garbage like this.
1. isnt D rank still low tier?
2. so.. hes the top of low tier?
3. that is straight up BS. sonic only doesnt have great matchups because everytime its explained why sonic goes even with somebody, it gets dismissed as mindgames...
4. wow.... just wow, you really need to STFU right now. cus now you are just being spiteful. if i had to guess, id say theres between 5 and 10 sonic players that are getting points for him on this list.
5. WTF does this even mean? lrn2english
6. No. he should move up because he better than that crap character you play. keep sonic out your mouth before i have to turn your stupid little dinosaur into oil for my hummer.
7. QQ more.
8. QQ more. please
9. so you admit hes bad?
10. that is a blatent lie. MK, snake, sonic, ROB, Pit, D3, kirby, ZSS, Charizard. Jigglypuff all have better recoveries, and im sure i could give you more. this is called exaggerating your character.
11. so does link...
12. luigis fireball is the only projectile in the game that i want LESS than those eggs.
13. That do all of 15 damage across final D...
14. how many characters is that garanteed on?
15. so does samus...
16. everyone has a lock of some kind... its not special...
so all in all Mmac, GTFO. i already told your whole board. your character is bad because hes not broken, and has nothing to spam except grabs. get over it. the tier list means half of nothing. if you have a good character you will eventually be recognised, and if you arent, maybe you need to take a good look at the differences between a good character, and a character with good qualities.

I don't see how I "failed". I merely asked the question of why should he rise if he has no tourny representation and I got the usual "no one plays him" response.

I really don't feel like a wall of text this early in the morning..maybe tomorrow.

I will say that top players care less about rumors and popularity. If Yoshi was truly as good as all of you Yoshi players think he is, more people would be picking him up.......period.

exactly this. if yoshi had the match against MK that they say he did, i would have picked him up myself about 2 months ago.

I agree with marsulas' statements about Yoshi. Yoshi players are claiming for months now that he does well vs MK but it never worked out that way in the slightest.

Bowser on the other hand is already proven to do well vs him (Sliq placing 3r with Booza and I think not a single MK got above him. Ally won with Snake) and even characters who are supposed to be not that good vs MK are actually doing better despite being underplayed too: Zamus (Snakeee beating lots of MKs), Luigi (Boss beating Forte) and Olimar (atomsk beating Inui + others). And we still have Diddy beating top MKs as well as DK (Bum), D3 (atomsk beating omni and forte) and Lucario of course.

So where's Yoshi?

just to claarify some misconceptions. when sliq got 3rd at that tourney, an MK player named KingAce beat him to get into finals. where ally proceded to **** him in 5 different directions at once.
and yoshi is no where to be seen... one of you needs to travel to jersey or somethin...

Personally I think sonic should be at least Middle of mid tier, while ZSS should be high.
Sonic has waaay more potential than low tier. Doesn't really matter if the tier list reflects it, the char doesn't get any better or worse, but for accuracy, he's a lot better than anywhere near low tier XD.

tru.


fax.

 

[Morrigan]

^ mad sonic fanboy

 

[Anther]

XD, Sonic just easily has advantages/no reason to get owned against a bunch of the cast + his matches against the high tiers are highly playable. His punishment game is pretty rawkin.

 

[Amide]

@SnowStalker

Good for the most part, but I'd actually argue that Pika will go up. Watch Anther vids on youtube.

@Anther

Sonic going up that high? What lol. He hasn't been doing so bad in tournaments so he may go up a little though.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

XD, Sonic just easily has advantages/no reason to get owned against a bunch of the cast + his matches against the high tiers are highly playable. His punishment game is pretty rawkin.

*Agrees with Anther* I hate playing spamming Falco's though, but guess that's what platforms are for :3.

 

[M.K]

*Agrees with Anther* I hate playing spamming Falco's though, but guess that's what platforms are for :3.

If you play a short character, feel free to crouch before the unbearable lazars o' doom.

 

[Bowser King]

Crawl approaching a spammy falco is always fun.

-Bowser King

 

[Ham Enterprises]

shut up anther just cuz u can beat anyone and everyone with any character doesnt mean they should be moved up.......... but yeah sonic should be moved up a little more

I dunno, Anthers pikachu did cause him to move up on the melee tier list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what anther said

 

[M15t3R E]

Your precious Pikachu shouldn't move up!

Even though I know little of the character, im telling YOU that he shouldn't move up.

Very convincing argument.
jw, but do you frequently use this "You're wrong even though I admittedly don't know what I'm talking about" argument? That's what it sounds like to me.

EDIT: I realize there's still some hard feelings due to what I said about Ness' recovery.
Believe me, there's more BS said about Pikachu than Ness. And I'm not the only one who thinks Ness' recovery is sub par.

 

[gantrain05]

Crawl approaching a spammy falco is always fun.

-Bowser King

i bet you try that w/ bowser don't you? i don't blame you he's got one sexy crawl.

 

[streetracr77]

Crawl approaching a spammy falco is always fun.

-Bowser King

Meta-Kirby always gets powned when I crawl approach his Falco.

 

[Mmac]

thats messed up that you would seriously say some garbage like this.
1. isnt D rank still low tier?
2. so.. hes the top of low tier?
3. that is straight up BS. sonic only doesnt have great matchups because everytime its explained why sonic goes even with somebody, it gets dismissed as mindgames...
4. wow.... just wow, you really need to STFU right now. cus now you are just being spiteful. if i had to guess, id say theres between 5 and 10 sonic players that are getting points for him on this list.
5. WTF does this even mean? lrn2english
6. No. he should move up because he better than that crap character you play. keep sonic out your mouth before i have to turn your stupid little dinosaur into oil for my hummer.
7. QQ more.
8. QQ more. please
9. so you admit hes bad?
10. that is a blatent lie. MK, snake, sonic, ROB, Pit, D3, kirby, ZSS, Charizard. Jigglypuff all have better recoveries, and im sure i could give you more. this is called exaggerating your character.
11. so does link...
12. luigis fireball is the only projectile in the game that i want LESS than those eggs.
13. That do all of 15 damage across final D...
14. how many characters is that garanteed on?
15. so does samus...
16. everyone has a lock of some kind... its not special...
so all in all Mmac, GTFO. i already told your whole board. your character is bad because hes not broken, and has nothing to spam except grabs. get over it. the tier list means half of nothing. if you have a good character you will eventually be recognised, and if you arent, maybe you need to take a good look at the differences between a good character, and a character with good qualities.

I'm not even going to waste my time re-quoting this, because the way you quoted this piece of ****. I have no idea what you are contesting against? What does Link have? What does Samus have? Most of the stuff you have said is because you don't know **** all on how my character works, and just going along with the lies all over the years. This is the exact same crap I've been contesting about. You don't how his projectile works, you don't know his recovery works, and you don't know anything. Either you actually learn how my character works, or YOU Get the **** out!

And let me ask you something. Why do you main Sonic? Why does everyone else main Sonic? And why does he have the 5th most Tournament Wins this Year?

I agree with marsulas' statements about Yoshi. Yoshi players are claiming for months now that he does well vs MK but it never worked out that way in the slightest.

Bowser on the other hand is already proven to do well vs him (Sliq placing 3r with Booza and I think not a single MK got above him. Ally won with Snake) and even characters who are supposed to be not that good vs MK are actually doing better despite being underplayed too: Zamus (Snakeee beating lots of MKs), Luigi (Boss beating Forte) and Olimar (atomsk beating Inui + others). And we still have Diddy beating top MKs as well as DK (Bum), D3 (atomsk beating omni and forte) and Lucario of course.

So where's Yoshi?

exactly this. if yoshi had the match against MK that they say he did, i would have picked him up myself about 2 months ago.

and yoshi is no where to be seen... one of you needs to travel to jersey or somethin...

Bwett beat Dojo, and Burntsocks beat DSF. But no matter how many times I say this, nobody gives a ****!

It's amazing that as soon as someone beats a high ranking MetaKnight, it's Instant ZOMG METAKNIGHJT COUNTREZ! But no matter how hard we try, how many techniques and strategies we come up with, and how many MetaKnights we actually do beat. It's never, ever ****ing enough for you guys. Why the hell is that?

Personally I think sonic should be at least Middle of mid tier, while ZSS should be high.
Sonic has waaay more potential than low tier. Doesn't really matter if the tier list reflects it, the char doesn't get any better or worse, but for accuracy, he's a lot better than anywhere near low tier XD.

I disagree, and I don't care if you are the all mighty anther. Other than his Tournament Results, I see no other reason for Sonic to move up, especially out of Low Tier.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I disagree, and I don't care if you are the all mighty anther. Other than his Tournament Results, I see no other reason for Sonic to move up, especially out of Low Tier.

At least Sonic has THAT much going for him.

 

[gantrain05]

i'm not gonna lie, i don't really see what sonic has that would move him out of low tier, i know a zillion people main sonic, he's one of the most repped chars in brawl, but i have never ever seen a sonic main anywhere in the midwest that was anywhere near decent and showed sonics ability to be moved above bottom tier =/

 

[Frown]

Yoshi and Sonic suck.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yoshi and Sonic suck.

YES! [/Captain Falcon]

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

i'm not gonna lie, i don't really see what sonic has that would move him out of low tier, i know a zillion people main sonic, he's one of the most repped chars in brawl, but i have never ever seen a sonic main anywhere in the midwest that was anywhere near decent and showed sonics ability to be moved above bottom tier =/

Midwest has a distinct lack of Sonics. They have a generally crappy attitude towards him in general. It's like how we have D3 swarms on the east coast and you have GaWs.

Yoshi and Sonic suck.

Tru fax

 

[Morrigan]

Yoshi and Sonic suck.

A-HA !! [/Peach]


10

 

[Kennahh]

I mean, who wants to main a character who is one of the hardest to use, and at one point the worst character in the game?

SKRAHHHHH!!!

 

[CaliburChamp]

Sonic is either top of low tier or bottom of middle tier. He has so many bad match ups, and alot of neutral match ups, and only a few good match ups, he can still do okay if he gets lucky in pools and fights the right characters, but if the tournament was full of Olimar's and Wario's, even the good Sonic's won't place.
And in my opinion Sonic can do just as good as any Yoshi. They both belong in the same tier because they have the same things going for them.

 

[PKNintendo]

Very convincing argument.
jw, but do you frequently use this "You're wrong even though I admittedly don't know what I'm talking about" argument? That's what it sounds like to me.

EDIT: I realize there's still some hard feelings due to what I said about Ness' recovery.
Believe me, there's more BS said about Pikachu than Ness. And I'm not the only one who thinks Ness' recovery is sub par.

Haha really? I thought everyone loved Pikachu. Pikachu should move up though. He doesn't actually have an glaring weaknesses, and to quote Sakurai ''This is what you call an all-around character''

 

[Anther]

Fine fine, I guess so then about Sonic, I didn't mean for no trouble MMac and others, didn't mean to stomp on yoshi thr :X.

Anyways, pika's fine whr he is imo, besides my lucky steak..(I'm so sorry) XD, I think he's about the same level of the other characters placed around him on the list.

Edit: No, I'm lying, Sonic has tournament placings, and he's not as much of a pushover as people want him to be. I'm not debating sonic against yoshi moving up, just saying in general. He doesn't just straight up lose against the cast of high tiers and that's mah argament.

Anyways, same can be said for other low tiers I'm sure, so maybe let's just say low tier is shrinking XD.

btw, I'll play you gantrain and show you some stuffs.

 

[Lord Viper]

If I would had gone to more Brawl tourneys before August, I would had made Kirby top tier by now. ;p

 

[Justblaze647]

If I would've gone to more Brawl tournies before August, I would've made Pokemon high tier by now...

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

If I would had gone to more Brawl tourneys before August, I would had made Kirby top tier by now. ;p

It wouldn't make a difference. Most people don't regard Kirby as high tier material despite all he has going for him and that Chudat is repping him nicely. Last I checked, people just thought Chudat was an exception and made Kirby good. I think for v2.0, we'll see the top and part of high see some reorganization, and Kirby will drop down to the very top of Middle tier.

 

[BrawLBlazer]

I'm surprised Jiggs is this low. I expected him/her to be a bit higher.

 

[gantrain05]

Fine fine, I guess so then about Sonic, I didn't mean for no trouble MMac and others, didn't mean to stomp on yoshi thr :X.

Anyways, pika's fine whr he is imo, besides my lucky steak..(I'm so sorry) XD, I think he's about the same level of the other characters placed around him on the list.

Edit: No, I'm lying, Sonic has tournament placings, and he's not as much of a pushover as people want him to be. I'm not debating sonic against yoshi moving up, just saying in general. He doesn't just straight up lose against the cast of high tiers and that's mah argament.

Anyways, same can be said for other low tiers I'm sure, so maybe let's just say low tier is shrinking XD.

btw, I'll play you gantrain and show you some stuffs.

im down with that, as long as your ok with lagfi, i don't need some tourney setting, i just have never experienced a good sonic firsthand, maybe just a little taste of what the blue hedgehog can do, and btw, my peach is terrible on wifi =/ impossible to play defensive when there is lag lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm surprised Jiggs is this low. I expected him/her to be a bit higher.

Jigg's problem is the exact same as Captain Falcon's - she's a Melee character in Brawl's physics. Her biggest asset in Melee was her Wall of Pain, but because of the virtually nonexistent hitstun on Brawl, it's been reduced to an Anthill of Mild Discomfort. Combine that with the RIDICULOUS nerfing of Rest (her other major asset in Melee and 64), and you've got serious trouble on your hands.

If it makes you feel better, Jiggly would be OMGWTFHAX tier if the Fan item were allowed.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm surprised Jiggs is this low. I expected him/her to be a bit higher.

Jiggs sux

= :ouch:

 

[Barge]

Jigg's problem is the exact same as Captain Falcon's - she's a Melee character in Brawl's physics. Her biggest asset in Melee was her Wall of Pain, but because of the virtually nonexistent hitstun on Brawl, it's been reduced to an Anthill of Mild Discomfort. Combine that with the RIDICULOUS nerfing of Rest (her other major asset in Melee and 64), and you've got serious trouble on your hands.

If it makes you feel better, Jiggly would be OMGWTFHAX tier if the Fan item were allowed.

The fan is the lamest item in the game. Sakurai must have been on crack when he decided to change it. "hey gaiz lets liek, omg, make it so when u hit ppl wif fan THEY CANT ESCAPE OMG. it's so no super omega cheap.
items on
2:00 minutes
ffas
no final destional kthx"

 

[Deleted member]

Hey now mmac, i didnt beat DSF =P
I wish XD I almost did tho.



Yoshi and sonic and falcon for god tier.

This discussion sucks, fans are the best items.

 

[Justblaze647]

items on
2:00 minutes
ffas
no final destional kthx"

Who was the smart asss that came up with Wi-fi again?

 

[Browny]

mmmm skewing tourney rankings win/placing ratios is fun :D

anyway time to bandwagon
IMO


Top
Meta Knight =
Snake =
King Dedede D
Mr. Game & Watch U
Falco =
R.O.B. D

High
Marth U
Wario U
Lucario D
Donkey Kong D
Diddy U
Pikachu =
Ice Climbers U
Kirby U
Pit D
Wolf D

Middle
Toon Link D
Olimar U
Fox D
Zelda D
Zero Suit Samus U
Bowser =
Luigi =
Peach U
Ike D
Sheik =

Low
Lucas =
Ness =
Mario =
Pokémon Trainer =
Samus D
Yoshi =
Sonic U
Jigglypuff D
Ganondorf =
Link U
Captain Falcon =

or in proper format, next tier list imo
Top; Metaknight, Snake, G&W, DDD, Falco, Marth
High; Wario, ROB, IC's, Diddy, Lucario, DK, Kirby, Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf
Middle; Pit, ZSS, Peach, TL, Fox, Zelda, Bowser, Luigi, Sonic, Sheik,
Low; Lucas, Ness, Mario, PT, Yoshi, Ike, Link, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Falcon

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic is either top of low tier or bottom of middle tier. He has so many bad match ups, and alot of neutral match ups, and only a few good match ups, he can still do okay if he gets lucky in pools and fights the right characters, but if the tournament was full of Olimar's and Wario's, even the good Sonic's won't place.
And in my opinion Sonic can do just as good as any Yoshi. They both belong in the same tier because they have the same things going for them.

I honestly am starting to think Sonic mains should stop citing bad matchups in a competitive scene. Because from my experience and reading the experience of others, Sonic's matchups in real life play are hiiighhllyyyyy player dependent. The only matchup I'd say Sonic mains usually truly agree on being quite bad is MK, and I personally find MK quite a breeze. Its like we can never come to a true consensus on matchups like the mains of other chars usually can.

I think Olimar is Sonic's worst matchup. Yet several others think he's quite easy. Tons of people think G&W is a pain, yet a few of us, myself included think he's not that hard. Several Sonic mains think Marth is like very very difficult, and yet several of us will tell you Marth is easy peasy, at worst even. Not many people think Wario is particularly hard anymore, some even think its quite a nice matchup.

Sometimes I read other characters' matchup discussions and I'm quite simply surprised at how much people agree overall.

I will quote SamuraiPanda in what is probably the most accurate description of Sonic to come out of someone who doesn't main him. Or maybe just the most accurate description in general:

Sonic has a crapton of options available to him (although many of them can be beaten by only one or two strategies), and his saving grace for not only his approach but his entire game, are his grabs. His ability to punish even the slightest lag with a running grab is awesome, and he has some interesting options out of his throws, too. However, he is mostly limited by the player who uses him. Sonic has options for "mindgames," but if your opponent plays smarter than you, then you'll lose. Sonic's reliance on reading/tricking his opponent are both the strongest and the weakest part of his game.

This applies not only to tourney placings and stuff, but also to character matchups. Your play style will very heavily affect your matchups as Sonic. He is simply unique because of how dynamic he is, and how many options he presents to the player. The problem is, these options are not always the most effective. Like, Sonic has no uber "I'm going to pwn everyone with ma ftilt" attacks like that. Every move basically has to be carefully calculated or thought out in a match. Not necesarily within the match, but at least you should know when to use this and that. Sonic has no universal pwnage strategy. As opposed to Snake and his "Camp with nades, space with ftilt"

So basically, Sonic has the potential to do whatever you want him to do. You're just going to have to work extra hard for it. I think Sonic would make a great counterpick character if you focus on developing specific matchups with him, because I do believe he has the potential to do well in any matchup. But again, Sonic is no way someone you can use as a pick-up and play secondary.

So yea, thats basically my opinion. Sonic can perform decently in any matchup depending on the player, and is not totally obliterated by any character in the game. If you get totally obliterated with a char, that is because your playstyle may not be particularly effective for that matchup, not because simply doesn't have the tools to win, because he does.

EDIT:

I agree with every single change djbrowny suggested XD

Double Edit:

And I DO think Yoshi deserves to move p. Top of low tier at least.

 

[Justblaze647]

Lucario D
Pikachu =
Pit D
Wolf D
Toon Link D
Zelda D
Zero Suit Samus U
Bowser =
Luigi =
Peach U
Ness =
Mario =
Pokémon Trainer =
Samus D
Yoshi =
Sonic U
Link U
Captain Falcon =

Here's my list of characters I think are vastly underrated (some more than others )

 

[hizzlum]

or in proper format, next tier list imo
Top; Metaknight, Snake, G&W, DDD, Falco, Marth
High; Wario, ROB, IC's, Diddy, Lucario, DK, Kirby, Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf
n

I think its a good gist of whats hapening now, but there are some placings that do not seem valid.
G&W has not been placing high(1-8) at very big tournaments, such Axis, BIO, or just now at C3 in VA, while Falco and DDD are showing up placing well in most tournies of relativly large sizes like these. Regardless this small yet notable lack of high level tourney representation does not overtake G&W's dominace in the midwest, so I do believe that G&W, looking the grand scheme of the smash scene since late summer that he would be lower than DDD and falco(those two characters are in no particular order).
As for marth being higher than wario, this does not correspond to whats been happening at big tournies, futile is currently ranked number 1 in the west coast with wario, which is a stunning feat considering some of the best brawl smashers in the world come from our side of the US(DSF, who won C3 against M2k, Sk92, probably the best falco in this country(chillin is close))
Wario has been doing better at tournies than marth has so I believe with that in mind Wario should take that place of yor top tier and marth should go to the top of the high, yet knowing ROB is very close to surpassing marth in results. Other than that, a preety accurate list