The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[The Milk Monster]

if jiggly was as good as you say, some body would have won a tourney with her

There is no MK counter and there never will be.

im not saying you will get hit by a charged smash, im just using it to illustrate how light she is.

i understand jiggs better than you obviously cus i can see that she is bad.

Pound is asking for out of shield punishment.

Im not saying people are starting to counter snake and D3, Im saying that people think that they are starting to beat snake and D3 when those two and MK are still winning all the tourneys.

Quit QQ just because jiggypuff sucks.

I am not trying to one up you in any way or anything, but Thinkaman's Jiggz is too good.

 

[The Milk Monster]

aww thanks XD ya I feel sorry for Pokemon Trainer....and all my favorite chars are either low or middle tier

I love your Totem Pole so so so much.
haha.

 

[Justblaze647]

M2K kept up with Ninjalink even if he got gimped on the very first stock.

You can clearly see who the better player and the better character are. Ninjalink beat M2K, not MK.

QFT

10agrees

 

[Eddie G]

If you would pay attention to some of the sub forms of the MK forms, youd know there are a few characters that MKs are starting to have problems with Yoshi, Olimar, and Snake is becoming and increasing issue. (DSF Vs Plank Axis)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PILPTfIOZP8
And here, As was discussed before, How Diddy can be used as a MK counter, as vs M2K vs Ninjalink. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNxQJfcz_vE&feature=related
Pound eats shield, it has 1/3 the strength of marths shield breaker. :3
You don't understand jigs, your simply going by your littler "Zomg tounry results" and not better understanding of the character + matchups.
They are winning all the tounries because currently 85% of the smashes use MK, Snake, or D3. Its like saying I hope this characters goes up in the list. This is why I also laughed when SWF debated the MK ban, saying 70% of the people said they wouldn't like it. You know why? Because 70% of those people used MK.
Im not QQing, im destorying every point you have and you turn with a six letter sentence in hopes your making a vald point, still clinging to your one sided view while you cling to the control saying your high tier bible beliefs when trying to debate.

"There is no MK counter, and Never will be"

Someone is taking the game a tad too seriously, considering it hasn't been out very long. And might I also point out the fact that this is verison 1?

Can I also stress the fact that this is Brawl? (Melee players shoulder understand this)

Well stated. I agree completely.

 

[KHSigma]

Lucario should be higher.

 

[Barge]

Lucario should be higher.

Good job on not giving any reasoning.

Lucario is high enough anyways

 

[Saki Zatoichi]

I'm fine with where Lucario is. Hell, when the game first came out, he was considered Mid-Tier.

 

[Archangel]

I agree. I don't main him but I use him and I'd say he is high enough.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so i just noticed that ravin responded to me.

brawl, while not simple, IS much more straight forward as a game than melee.
that being said, MK has the best base characteristics and moves as a character than anybody else. At this point in time, MK has been the best character in the game for the last 6 months, he hasnt had a definite counter in 6 months.
Wolfs metagame (just one example) has been stagnant for about 3-4 months now.
Even Sonic (who is easily top five most technical characters in brawl) is starting to run kinda dry as far as new stuff we can do with him.

MK doesnt have any counters, he has tons of character that come close to even with him. he has a small amount of really close to even matchups, but no character with the exception of snake has anything better than a 45-55 against them, in MKs favor.
If MK doesnt have a counter now, with the straight forwardness of brawl, and the dominance that he has had thus far, its actually very easy to say he wont have any counters.
i hate the character, i wish he would die in a fire, but im not going to ignore the obvious in that his worst possible match in the game will most likely be a 45-55 against snake .

and dont give me that diddy crap, if youve ever seen NL talk about this on the boards, even he says that diddy does not counter MK, and that he only beats MKs because he is a good player with a sickening amount of experience with the matchup.

heres your reasoning.
everyone uses this character---> good tourney results ---> become good characters.

heres the correct line of thought.
character is actually good---> good tourneys results---> everyone else uses the character.

stop being upset about jigglys tier placement, i was upset when i found my main was low tier, but than I got over it and I helped make him better, because he actually was better. thats why sonic is fifth from the bottom (like 32nd place) but 18th in the character rankings, jiggs however is like 4th from the bottom, but her results dont amount to her being much higher than that

the game has been out long enough to make knowledgable inferences on how the future of the game will turn out
p.s. lucario could stand to go down a spot or two.

 

[Darknid]

I don't get why Mario is lower than Luigi when Luigi's recovery leaves him so vulnerable, he doesn't have nearly as much variety as Mario, he has less agility and his aerials are slower, his fair isn't as good due to the fact that his dair and uair have very similar effects while Mario can simply use his uair in situations where Luigi would fair, so he keeps his spike. There's also Mario's superior dsmash and fsmash. His fireball can be used in more ways, the cape is a great tool, and FLUDD can be useful as well, giving him many more options than Luigi. He also has a superior uppercoin that leaves him less vulnerable and is a lot less situational.

As for MK, the closest I've found to a counter is Yoshi.

 

[Flamingo]

Move Ike and Bowser down. Period.

Luigi OWNS Mario.

Diddy and ZSS > Metaknight on certain stages.

 

[brinboy789]

Move Ike and Bowser down. Period.

Luigi OWNS Mario.

Diddy and ZSS > Metaknight on certain stages.

ZSS > MK on which stage? diddy > MK on FD maybe but ZSS? which stage?

 

[da K.I.D.]

luigis recovery does leave him vulnerable, but its covers such a rediculous amount of distance that it doesnt matter.

luigis airials are faster than marios, down air and forward air especially, how can you say luigis airs are slow when he and MK are the only ones that can triple airial in one short hop

his cape and fludd dont really relate to luigi, since their side and down bs have wildly different uses.

marios up b is better for recovering, but luigi has a better recovery in general, and his up b kills wayyyyyy lower than ANYTHING mario has

i agree with bboy
WTF?

 

[Blackbelt]

luigis recovery does leave him vulnerable, but its covers such a rediculous amount of distance that it doesnt matter.

luigis airials are faster than marios, down air and forward air especially, how can you say luigis airs are slow when he and MK are the only ones that can triple airial in one short hop

his cape and fludd dont really relate to luigi, since their side and down bs have wildly different uses.

marios up b is better for recovering, but luigi has a better recovery in general, and his up b kills wayyyyyy lower than ANYTHING mario has

i agree with bboy
WTF?

Marios Up B does have the advantage of being an extremely effective OOS option.

 

[da K.I.D.]

even though it leaves him rediculously vulnerable if it misses or gets shielded.

 

[Blackbelt]

even though it leaves him rediculously vulnerable if it misses or gets shielded.

Same can be said for alot of Up Bs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats why up b out of shield isnt used by the vast majority of characters.

 

[Browny]

lucario can triple aerial in one SH too, btw

 

[da K.I.D.]

how?

f to d to n?

i wasnt sure if that was possible.

 

[Browny]

fair dair dair. you dont even touch the ground (since you cant) on the second dair so you can do it with no landing lag

 

[da K.I.D.]

gotta try that....

 

[Blackbelt]

gotta try that....

Way ahead of you. He's right.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean i gotta try that in the sence that i (at least used to) play lucario and i suddenly got the urge to know kung fu and light people on blue fire again

 

[Darknid]

luigis recovery does leave him vulnerable, but its covers such a rediculous amount of distance that it doesnt matter.

luigis airials are faster than marios, down air and forward air especially, how can you say luigis airs are slow when he and MK are the only ones that can triple airial in one short hop

his cape and fludd dont really relate to luigi, since their side and down bs have wildly different uses.

marios up b is better for recovering, but luigi has a better recovery in general, and his up b kills wayyyyyy lower than ANYTHING mario has

i agree with bboy
WTF?

Sure, Luigi's recovery is better if no one is trying to kill him, but if he has someone edgeguarding he is in serious trouble. His up B is not nearly as useful as Mario's, and his aerials are NOT faster, his bair and uair(the aerials they share) are both slower. His fair is a completely different attack from mario's, so it doesn't count. Spikes aren't supposed to be fast. His dair is also completely different as it's a quick attack that is inferior to the bair anyway, and not a combo like Mario's. He can do three aerials in one hop because he floats in the air a bit more than Mario, but he definitely doesn't handle as well in the air.

Mario's fair is useful and different from his other aerials, while Luigi's fair isn't considering the fact that he has plenty of other similar aerials. In place of Luigi's fair Mario can simply uair with a similar, perhaps superior effect.

 

[Barge]

Sure, Luigi's recovery is better if no one is trying to kill him, but if he has someone edgeguarding he is in serious trouble. His up B is not nearly as useful as Mario's, and his aerials are NOT faster, his bair and uair(the aerials they share) are both slower. His fair is a completely different attack from mario's, so it doesn't count. Spikes aren't supposed to be fast. His dair is also completely different as it's a quick attack that is inferior to the bair anyway, and not a combo like Mario's. He can do three aerials in one hop because he floats in the air a bit more than Mario, but he definitely doesn't handle as well in the air.

Mario's fair is useful and different from his other aerials, while Luigi's fair isn't considering the fact that he has plenty of other similar aerials. In place of Luigi's fair Mario can simply uair with a similar, perhaps superior effect.

His nair is the best aerial attack in the game.
Luigis recovery out matches over 3/4 of the cast, he can practically use all of his special moves to get back on the stage, especially down B side B and up B. Whachoo talkin bout willis? Luigi is way better than mario in the air and in the ground. Mario is better at gimping I'll give you that, but luigi has incredible "combo" potential if you can call it that.

 

[Darknid]

His nair is the best aerial attack in the game.
Luigis recovery out matches over 3/4 of the cast, he can practically use all of his special moves to get back on the stage, especially down B side B and up B. Whachoo talkin bout willis? Luigi is way better than mario in the air and in the ground. Mario is better at gimping I'll give you that, but luigi has incredible "combo" potential if you can call it that.

But all of his recovery options are very easily thwarted, especially by mario. He can recover from anything, as long as nobody is around, which probably won't happen.

 

[Barge]

But all of his recovery options are very easily thwarted, especially by mario. He can recover from anything, as long as nobody is around, which probably won't happen.

At least Luigi has a better chance at getting back on the stage with all his options. Mario only gets a little bit of distance with his Up B.

 

[YagamiLight]

Luigi's recovery is good distancewise, but it really blows if your opponent is making any sort of effort to stop you. It's similar to Snake's in that if your opponent falls asleep, you're making it back to the stage.

 

[Darknid]

At least Luigi has a better chance at getting back on the stage with all his options. Mario only gets a little bit of distance with his Up B.

But he doesn't have a better chance, considering the fact that if he's been knocked off of the stage, chances are he has an OPPONENT. Mario's up B clears plenty of room while his cape allows him to float for a bit. Luigi is very easily edgeguarded. Mario gets adequate distance very quickly and is hard to stop, while Luigi gets good distance very slowly and non-threateningly. The FLUDD and cape alone make Mario more versatile and useful, but the fact that his aerial game is superior and more versatile make him simply better, especially since his recovery isn't so easily stopped like Luigi's.

 

[Judge Judy]

even though it leaves him rediculously vulnerable if it misses or gets shielded.

Still less punishable than Marth or Luigi's Up B if it misses. Mario's Up B works pretty much like Marth's and has stupidly high priority.

 

[Flamingo]

ZSS > MK on which stage? diddy > MK on FD maybe but ZSS? which stage?

Smashville and Final D. Not Battlefield.

 

[gantrain05]

But he doesn't have a better chance, considering the fact that if he's been knocked off of the stage, chances are he has an OPPONENT. Mario's up B clears plenty of room while his cape allows him to float for a bit. Luigi is very easily edgeguarded. Mario gets adequate distance very quickly and is hard to stop, while Luigi gets good distance very slowly and non-threateningly. The FLUDD and cape alone make Mario more versatile and useful, but the fact that his aerial game is superior and more versatile make him simply better, especially since his recovery isn't so easily stopped like Luigi's.

you don't play either character very well do you, if you did, you would know that a good luigi can recover from the depths of hell with good use of the Down B, forward B, and Up B if used correctly he can come back from like 4x the distance as mario, and since when are marios arials better? weegee can kill at rediculous percents with Nair and its got crazy speed and stops him from being combo'd by most characters, i believe they are close together on the tier list but weegee is clearly a more competent fighter.

 

[Judge Judy]

you don't play either character very well do you, if you did, you would know that a good luigi can recover from the depths of hell with good use of the Down B, forward B, and Up B if used correctly he can come back from like 4x the distance as mario, and since when are marios arials better? weegee can kill at rediculous percents with Nair and its got crazy speed and stops him from being combo'd by most characters, i believe they are close together on the tier list but weegee is clearly a more competent fighter.

Luigi's recovery is long but his missile and Up B are heavily telegraphed and easily intercepted, however, his tornado has high priority and it can add mix-ups to his recovery. Mario on the other hand does not get great distance with his recovery but his defense options while recovering are a lot stronger than Luigi's despite his lack of mix-ups with his recovery. Luigi is by no means easy to edgeguard but his recovery is easier to intercept than Mario's, however, Mario's recovery does not get nearly as good distance so his recovery has a higher chance of being gimped he gets hit at a bad angle or makes a mistake.

As far as their air games: their aerials come out at about the same speeds (Except for Mario's Fair obviously), Mario's air speed is much faster than Luigi's, Mario's SH is smaller and Mario falls slightly faster than Luigi, Luigi's aerials generally have more power but there are exceptions such as Mario's Bair and Uair VS Luigi's, Mario and Luigi actually have about the same reach in the air and about the same priority with their aerials, Luigi can fit any two aerials in one SH and up to 3 but Mario's list is pretty long too...http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203880

Overall, I'd still say Luigi's aerials > Mario's but not by as much as people would like to think. Also, you never even touched on Mario's off-stage and gimping abilities or his defense and approach capabilities and methods.

PS: Mario's Nair and Up B also are good GTFO me moves to get out of juggles and so forth.

 

[Browny]

how does a luigi get past an edgeguarding marth, for example? (dont consider MK coz he wrecks most characters recoveries anyway) since mario has quite a few options to help him out.

I agree with what most of what darknid is saying.

 

[Jim Morrison]

if he has a second jump left, fireball in marth's face, second jump + down-b.

 

[Darknid]

if he has a second jump left, fireball in marth's face, second jump + down-b.

If he had enough time and space to do that he could missile himself to the middle of the stage anyway, since he'd have to be high enough and close enough for his fireball(which has miserable range) to hit Marth, unless he happened to be in a situation where he regains control at just the right height for a fireball which is doubtful, but even then how would it phase Marth enough to prevent a fatal slashing?

Mario on the other hand in the same situation could second jump + up-b which would get him to the stage a lot faster, probably above the edge and unless Marth counters he will be knocked away.

 

[MBlaze]

We need a new teir list....

 

[Justblaze647]

We need a new teir list....

The 1st "on-topic" post in this thread in a couple of pages...

 

[xDD-Master]

Yeah we actually does...

 

[Nybb]

If he had enough time and space to do that he could missile himself to the middle of the stage anyway, since he'd have to be high enough and close enough for his fireball(which has miserable range) to hit Marth, unless he happened to be in a situation where he regains control at just the right height for a fireball which is doubtful, but even then how would it phase Marth enough to prevent a fatal slashing?

Mario on the other hand in the same situation could second jump + up-b which would get him to the stage a lot faster, probably above the edge and unless Marth counters he will be knocked away.

Have you ever played this game? A mario who up-b's above the ledge against a marth is just going right back off the stage.

It you think Luigi's recovery is too easily telegraphed, why the deuce are you defending mario's, who will do the exact same thing every single time? The only possible difference is do I cape once or twice or not at all? Luigi has a large amount of options AND can cover absurdly more distance than mario. That doesn't mean his recovery is amazing, but it's definitely better than mario's. The question of whether it is "easily interceptable" or not doesn't mean anything if mario can't even make it back to the stage. Not to mention that Luigi has a 1/8 chance of decimating his opponent in a most humiliating fashion during recovery

The 1st "on-topic" post in this thread in a couple of pages...

How is discussing the tier list off-topic in a thread about the tier list?