The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Chis]

All you did was Move ROB and Bowser down (Without reason), and Sonic Up.

I moved ROB, Marth and some others I think.

It isn't all about Tournament Results you know

In Melee, Marth moved up. It wasn't because he got better as a character. It's because his tournament results improved.

 

[Boxob.]

Oh god, you have two accounts now?!?

The other one got perma banned, I got permission to have this one, though.

Sucks too, my old account had 2.1k posts and an 07 join date. I just look like a scrub scrub scrub now.

Sonic should be slightly higher. But I don't really care too much about the list. It doesn't change how good I can make him. So to me, personally, it's a waste of time thinking of an appropriate list. I know what characters are really good, good, meh, bad, and terribad. A percise order, I couldn't care less.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

The other one got perma banned, I got permission to have this one, though.

Sucks too, my old account had 2.1k posts and an 07 join date. I just look like a scrub scrub scrub now.

Sonic should be slightly higher. But I don't really care too much about the list. It doesn't change how good I can make him. So to me, personally, it's a waste of time thinking of an appropriate list. I know what characters are really good, good, meh, bad, and terribad. A percise order, I couldn't care less.

but i thought you were a total scrub...... jk <3

 

[Mmac]

In Melee, Marth moved up. It wasn't because he got better as a character. It's because his tournament results improved.

That was also at the end of Melee's Metagame where everything was pretty much figured out and all that remained WAS Tournament Results. Matchups were complete, Pretty Much every technique was found.

 

[Camalange]

I'm more perturbed by the fact that Sonic is 5th from the bottom yet he places that well in tournaments. Then people bluntly say he DOESN'T do well in tournaments. Bleh.

Then whenever we display cold hard facts about Sonic as a character, we usually just get flat out ignored and say that Dtilt beats out everything, or his dash attack can't pick up bananas (that joke will never get old btw). Heck, if they're just going to do that, might as well make Sonic his own tier. It could be below bottom for all I care.

I also laugh when people still think that his spindashes are a good direct approach.

 

[Snowstalker]

I personally think that matchups are most important in an ideal tier list. Sonic's matchups are meh at best.

 

[Chis]

Well you're wrong.

Only partly, which should display them selves in tourney results.

 

[Boxob.]

Lol, I'm no scrub. <3

And Sonic's problem isn't that a bunch of the cast counters him, he just has a couple of ultra gay matchups.

G&W, Wario, Luigi (Not nearly as bad), Kirby. Pretty much anyone who's aerial game is the core of gameplay for that character.

 

[Camalange]

I personally think that matchups are most important in an ideal tier list. Sonic's matchups are meh at best.

As for match ups, he doesn't have the best, but things just look a lot worse on paper. When put into action, there are a lot of things Sonic can do. I'll state this again, Sonic is based heavily on punishment and mindgames, which is why he's low on the tier list and overlooked. Sadly, these attributes can't be discussed when debating match up "ratios" so I find tournament results to be a more accurate display of character potential than someone saying "lol sonic cants kill an no priority. 60:40 kirby's favor".

Bringing this back up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

any tier list that doesnt have MK as #1, snake as #2 and D3 at #3 is auto fail.

I cant believe im about to say this, but Ive noticed that people are really starting to under estimate snake's and D3s airial game.

dont do that...

Just because Snake only has one airial (back air btw) doesnt mean his air game is bad

 

[Ravin]

any tier list that doesnt have MK as #1, snake as #2 and D3 at #3 is auto fail.

I cant believe im about to say this, but Ive noticed that people are really starting to under estimate snake's and D3s airial game.

dont do that...

Just because Snake only has one airial (back air btw) doesnt mean his air game is bad

Im sorry, Aerial game?

Peach, Jiggs, Yoshi, and Samus own their aerial game by far.

Auto fail nothing. They will fall in the list.

Cept for MK, He can go suck a ****.

 

[Deleted member]

Snake also has a good dair, nair, and uair in certain situations. Situational but very good in those situations. D3 has a good aerial game, just not to approach.

I wouldnt say auto fail, but those seem to be the 3 best characters, altho G&W and falco seem to be up there and interchangable with D3.

 

[Tenki]

I personally think that matchups are most important in an ideal tier list. Sonic's matchups are meh at best.

marth goes even with most people except for a few characters that he just *****.
sonic goes even with most people except for a few that **** him

And after having gone through them, even his bad matchups aren't as bad as you'd think they'd be.

 

[da K.I.D.]

they arent interchangeable with D3

i didnt say that people dont have air games better. I say that D3s is really good, and Snakes is pretty good as well.

i mean, how many people can wall of pain like D3?

and how many other characters have 5 airials that do more than 15%?

 

[phi1ny3]

I moved ROB, Marth and some others I think.



In Melee, Marth moved up. It wasn't because he got better as a character. It's because his tournament results improved.

Since Melee has been around for so long, the idea of rating on potential lowered a bit. Brawl will still need to have it based on that and tourney results. That's why it's hard to say what worked for Melee Tier list works for Brawl, in saying that only tourney results count.

 

[Ravin]

they arent interchangeable with D3

i didnt say that people dont have air games better. I say that D3s is really good, and Snakes is pretty good as well.

i mean, how many people can wall of pain like D3?

and how many other characters have 5 airials that do more than 15%?

Jigglypuff has a better WoP then D3 Does, not to mention Rollout and Rest, as well as better, and faster all around aerials, and not just a spamming Bair like D3. Only reason D3 made it so high was he was the first to be found of his CG, remember back around when they found out Wall + D3 = Lol. Then they dug more into D3 right off the bat, he was used in tounries all around, the first sprawl of tounriments was based around old melee characters, and very few offsets of others until they progressed in a month or so, then MK, who was said at the very first discussions to be weak and have poor kill moves, now sits at the top of the list.

Whoever is overused the most, will shape the list.

And btw, three of Jigs aerials, does more then 15%.


It only takes two of Samus's aerials, Wanna go Uair into Fair depending on DI, or even Uair, Fair, into Up B, does moe then 15%, and isnt a wall of pain, and is most likely to do almost more then 20% damage, and isn't even needed to be a WoP.

 

[Frown]

any tier list that doesnt have MK as #1, snake as #2 and D3 at #3 is auto fail.

I cant believe im about to say this, but Ive noticed that people are really starting to under estimate snake's and D3s airial game.

dont do that...

Just because Snake only has one airial (back air btw) doesnt mean his air game is bad

DDD's air game is awesome.

Snake, on the other hand, is supposed to stay on the ground.

And yes, the top 3 should remain unchanged.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Jigglypuff has a better WoP then D3 Does, 2. not to mention Rollout and Rest, as well as better, 3. and faster all around aerials, and not just a spamming Bair like D3. 4. Only reason D3 made it so high was he was the first to be found of his CG, remember back around when they found out Wall + D3 = Lol. 5. Then they dug more into D3 right off the bat, he was used in tounries all around, the first sprawl of tounriments was based around old melee characters, and very few offsets of others until they progressed in a month or so, 6. then MK, who was said at the very first discussions to be weak and have poor kill moves, now sits at the top of the list.

7. Whoever is overused the most, will shape the list.

8. And btw, three of Jigs aerials, does more then 15%.

1. hmm... didnt know that.
2. what does that have to do with anything?
3. all D3s airials are pretty fast have good strength, and wayyy more range.
4. D3 made it that high because hes a REALLY good character. its not just CG giggles...
5. once again, D3 was/is used in lotsa tourneys cause hes the third best character in the game.
6. MK has never been lower than the second best character in the game since april.
7. they will be overused because they are teh best.
8. why does that matter. i know jiggs has a good air game, but shes still a really bad character.

 

[Ravin]

1. hmm... didnt know that.
2. what does that have to do with anything?
3. all D3s airials are pretty fast have good strength, and wayyy more range.
4. D3 made it that high because hes a REALLY good character. its not just CG giggles...
5. once again, D3 was/is used in lotsa tourneys cause hes the third best character in the game.
6. MK has never been lower than the second best character in the game since april.
7. they will be overused because they are teh best.
8. why does that matter. i know jiggs has a good air game, but shes still a really bad character.

2 - Better moveset.
3 Range over speed is never a good thing, Also his aerial downtime is longer then Jigs, Her Dair is also able to auto cancel into just about most of her moves, Utilt, or rest, depending upon percent.
4 Not really, Hes ability to play defensive and camp, alongside CG, was what made him so good, and at the time M2K used him alot. Meaning tounry results, and if you watch a lot of M2K's videos, he tends to CG, throw wads, and spam Bair. Did it to Azen a lot to simply prove its easy to do.
5 - not really. Explained in 4.
6 - When first discussed before ANY list was put together, he was considered rather ****ty until more and more people took time to learn him, all of two or three weeks.
7 - No, that statement is false, once they find someone who is good, they overuse it, As was stated before, in melee everyone thought Luigi was gonna be TeH ****, but soon enough as the list boiled down and came to its end years later, we wasnt as high as orginally thought.
8 - How is she bad? because shes underplayed or you dont understand how to play her?

 

[Judge Judy]

That's a gross oversimplification, but in some ways that can be true. People want to win tourneys so naturally they go for characters winning tourneys, makes sense so far, right? Characters who win tourneys clearly are good characters who deserve higher placings, but characters who don't win tourneys aren't necessarily worse characters who deserve lower placings.

Now here's where things get kind of complicated...

Characters who do poorly in tourneys might do poorly for a variety of reasons: they might just be a bad character, they might have a specifically bad match-up against a character often used in tourneys, or they might be underplayed and/or underused in tourneys.

Most people assume a character that does poorly in tournaments is a "bad" character, which is a fair assumption, but isn't always true. Now assuming that a character is not just "bad", we can start looking at other reasons they might not be doing well in tourneys.

If a character has a specifically bad match-up against a character often used in tourneys, that will most likely limit that character's abilities to place well in tourneys, which will also cause that character to be less used in tourneys. A classic example of this in Brawl would be Fox VS Pikachu or any of the 5 infinited characters; these specific match-ups are disastrous to these specific characters and will most likely limit their use in tourneys because of such. Now, a character can overcome a terrible match-up with a high amount of skill but it's still clearly an uphill battle, but the simple solution is to just have a secondary.

You may have noticed a small paradox in what I've just explained, that a character that has a bad match-up will be underused yet the problem can be remedied by simply having a good secondary. Well, the reason some people don't like using secondaries is one of two things: fear that secondaries will become their main or that they no longer are "purely" representing or maining their character. However, this should not greatly affect that character's rep in tourney because most players can accept having a secondary, but this still is a point against that character's "popularity" since it makes them less attractive in the competitive scene, especially if that character does not have any particularly great strengths. This leads us to our next topic of underused/underplayed characters.

Characters may just be underrepresented in tourneys, which can limit their ability to display victories at a larger scale in tourney. An argument against the relevance of this, is that if these characters are "good" they should have mostly wins, which is fair but slightly one-sided; with a low amount of tourney data it is difficult to make accurate predictions on well a character can do in tourneys, assuming these characters are underused in tourneys. However, poor tournament rankings add another point against these characters' "popularity" and partly cause a vicious cycle of under representation in tourneys.

Characters might be underplayed for what I will call "popularity". Now popularity can mean a great deal of things but I will simply define it as "reason or reasons of why a character is used in tourneys". Now you might want to read back a bit now to get a better understanding of what I meant by the term "popularity", Ima trickster arent I?

Characters can become popular for of a variety of reasons: tourney results, match-ups, and/or people just might like them for reasons other than their actual metagame

Time for some complicated but less complicated than before stuff…

Characters who well in tourneys will be most likely be more often in tourneys, logical, simple, and obvious, right?

Characters who have great match-ups will most likely be used more often used in tourneys. So, if character has great match-ups and is known do well in tourneys, they'll most likely be more often used in tourneys. However, characters with good match-ups may not be often used which leads us to "things outside the metagame to fill in the gap in popularity".

Things outside the metagame that affect a character's "popularity" might be: that people just like how that character looks, a character's character (try saying that five times fast), a character's background, a player's background, and/or that the character is "popular" which can dissolve into nothing more than a vicious cycle. Basically, someone might just like Ike or Snake because they're "badasses", but disregard Yoshi or Mario because they're "childish" or "unattractive". Alternatively, a certain playstyle preference might affect people's decisions, such as some with power=Ike, Ganondorf, Snake, etc., yet stay away from things like balance=Mario. People also might just choose a character because they heard that that character is "good" for whatever reason which can dissolve into a vicious cycle as people tell other people. People might just use a character because everyone else is using them, and it becomes a trend that can dissolve into a vicious cycle.

If character is not "popular" it is because they are lacking what makes a character "popular".

In conclusion, I think match-ups are more important than tourney results. I still think tourneys results are a factor, but they need to be very carefully considered before going off on raw data. Same could be said of match-ups, but I think that match-ups are much more important on their own to progressing the metagame than just tourney result, even though tourney results and match-ups can go hand-in-hand at times; tourney results can occur from a character's match-ups, but it's the match-ups that truly define the character, not the tourney results themselves. Match-ups need to be carefully considered too but not in the same sense that tourney results do; things need to be carefully considered in order to come up with accurate enough raw data to go off of for that character.

If I missed anything, tell me.

Did no one read my post on p.278? Comeon, at least read it.

 

[Ravin]

Did no one read my post on p.278? Comeon, at least read it.

I did, you didnt miss anything. xD

 

[Ravin]

Super double post for Kid - I dont think you have been hit with a sweet spot Fair with Jigs, that thing can kill characters at pretty low percents, alongside her edgegame if needed. Shes simply underplayed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Shes bad dude...

She is small and therefore has poor range
Her run speed is terrible, heck her entire ground game is pretty awful, and without being on the ground she is limited to airials and pound, which will stale, which lessens her kill power, walls of pain arent as effective because of brawl mechanics, her throws are meh, and to top it all off, shes the lightest character in the game.

THis is me asking a serious question.

doesnt she die at 0 from a full charge D3 f-smash from the center of FD?

cus it kills mario at either 17 or 30

 

[Ravin]

Shes bad dude...

She is small and therefore has poor range
Her run speed is terrible, heck her entire ground game is pretty awful, and without being on the ground she is limited to airials and pound, which will stale, which lessens her kill power, walls of pain arent as effective because of brawl mechanics, her throws are meh, and to top it all off, shes the lightest character in the game.

THis is me asking a serious question.

doesnt she die at 0 from a full charge D3 f-smash from the center of FD?

cus it kills mario at either 17 or 30

Yes, because everyone gets hit by a full charged Fsmash. Cuz ike Haz Ph143.

Or D3 has mallet.

And no, she doesn't. How often do you get hit by a full charged Fsmash?

Being a point, shes bad because you don't know how to use her, she nots limited in aerials. and her pound is a wonderful approch, and also eats shields, if the Ddodge, its most liekly to hit due to the long animation. WoP is used in brawl to rack up damage, or with some special characters like D3s infinity without a wall, can be used to finish certains characters easily.

Please stop QQing or saying a character is bad, because you don't understand them.

Or get mad because people are starting to understand Snake and D3 and starting to come out and say, They arnt that bad to fight and there is ways around them.

Im waiting for the day a good MK countier is out, looking like its Yoshi or olimar by the MK boards. I think youd just about slit your own throat if MK ever drop a placeing on the tier list.


O-o.

Bed timez.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if jiggly was as good as you say, some body would have won a tourney with her

There is no MK counter and there never will be.

im not saying you will get hit by a charged smash, im just using it to illustrate how light she is.

i understand jiggs better than you obviously cus i can see that she is bad.

Pound is asking for out of shield punishment.

Im not saying people are starting to counter snake and D3, Im saying that people think that they are starting to beat snake and D3 when those two and MK are still winning all the tourneys.

Quit QQ just because jiggypuff sucks.

 

[Mr_Orion]

Go, KIRBY!

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wheres does everybody think wolf will go?

 

[da K.I.D.]

wolf should be middle of middle tier, like 3-4 places above sonic

 

[YagamiLight]

Wolf is still pretty **** solid, but he has a few minor issues.

Falco? Urgh.

Dedede? Urgh.

Meta Knight? Urgh.

Game and Watch? Urgh.

Now that would be okay if all of those weren't in the top tier. As it stands though..."urgh".

I'm not saying those characters don't take a **** on most of the cast, they do, just Wolf got it kind of bad.

 

[Razorcloud]

I think link got it bad. I mean christ, have you guys watches izaw play?

 

[TheDUD]

I made a tier totem pole lol...

just thought I should post this here since it's the tier list but illustrated XD

 

[Tenki]

LOL^

the new face of the tier list.

IMO DK should be on the bottom of the tier totem pole because he's strong and has hands of power.

:3

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Michelle, why are you so awesome? XD

Ugh, poor Pokemon Trainer...hell, I feel bad for all of the low tier characters struggling. =(

 

[Tenki]

Upon second look,
poor Zelda
poor DK

:<

PS.
Falco has bread and Sonic has no steak!?!?

ah well.

Next tier list, he'll have steak. Owning steak.

 

[Jim Morrison]

LOL^

the new face of the tier list.

IMO DK should be on the bottom of the tier totem pole because he's strong and has hands of power.

:3

You actually believe DK is stronger than the son of Chuck Norris and God?

 

[Barge]

Lol @ falco's bread in the picture

 

[TheDUD]

Michelle, why are you so awesome? XD

Ugh, poor Pokemon Trainer...hell, I feel bad for all of the low tier characters struggling. =(

aww thanks XD ya I feel sorry for Pokemon Trainer....and all my favorite chars are either low or middle tier

 

[Ravin]

http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6085617

if jiggly was as good as you say, some body would have won a tourney with her

There is no MK counter and there never will be.

im not saying you will get hit by a charged smash, im just using it to illustrate how light she is.

i understand jiggs better than you obviously cus i can see that she is bad.

Pound is asking for out of shield punishment.

Im not saying people are starting to counter snake and D3, Im saying that people think that they are starting to beat snake and D3 when those two and MK are still winning all the tourneys.

Quit QQ just because jiggypuff sucks.

If you would pay attention to some of the sub forms of the MK forms, youd know there are a few characters that MKs are starting to have problems with Yoshi, Olimar, and Snake is becoming and increasing issue. (DSF Vs Plank Axis)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PILPTfIOZP8
And here, As was discussed before, How Diddy can be used as a MK counter, as vs M2K vs Ninjalink. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNxQJfcz_vE&feature=related
Pound eats shield, it has 1/3 the strength of marths shield breaker. :3
You don't understand jigs, your simply going by your littler "Zomg tounry results" and not better understanding of the character + matchups.
They are winning all the tounries because currently 85% of the smashes use MK, Snake, or D3. Its like saying I hope this characters goes up in the list. This is why I also laughed when SWF debated the MK ban, saying 70% of the people said they wouldn't like it. You know why? Because 70% of those people used MK.
Im not QQing, im destorying every point you have and you turn with a six letter sentence in hopes your making a vald point, still clinging to your one sided view while you cling to the control saying your high tier bible beliefs when trying to debate.

"There is no MK counter, and Never will be"

Someone is taking the game a tad too seriously, considering it hasn't been out very long. And might I also point out the fact that this is verison 1?

Can I also stress the fact that this is Brawl? (Melee players shoulder understand this)

 

[kr3wman]

M2K kept up with Ninjalink even if he got gimped on the very first stock.

You can clearly see who the better player and the better character are. Ninjalink beat M2K, not MK.

 

[Ravin]

M2K kept up with Ninjalink even if he got gimped on the very first stock.

You can clearly see who the better player and the better character are. Ninjalink beat M2K, not MK.

This is why i said "Can be used" As a counter.

I saw the epic gimps of Diddy with MK, don't get me wrong. Im a by no means saying Diddy will place higher the MK. Im am simply stating, there are decent counter depending upon how the characters and matchesups wiill play out.