The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[da K.I.D.]

so just so we are clear here... what im seeing here is that Captain falcon and jigglypuff are better than ike and zelda because they have moves that come out faster than you can power shield them. Do I have this right?

If I hadnt seen videos, I would be asking if you actually play this game right now. That is the biggest and most offensive form of theory crafting ive seen in a long time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff can realistically approach and space safely since they have mobility and moves that are safe on block. They also have better safe KO setups and legitimate ways to juggle.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wow, I didn't think you'd say yes to that.

 

[Throwback]

the problem w/ saying Ike's moves come out slow is that a) they will often catch you when you can't react because you are in the middle of another move, and b) they only need to hit you once or twice, and c) his jab cancel racks up amazing damage, d) his range is massive so you are attempting to get in range to hit him, e) shields are finite, f) if you're coming down from the air the frames don't matter, only the 50/50 of will you airdodge or not.

Probably more things but I cbf. Basically 19 frames is only 1 part of an actual game situation, don't be so narrow-minded.

 

[Dre89]

Didn't someone say though that the first jab can be SDI'd.

 

[Throwback]

do you have <5/4/3 frame reaction time? Ok then.

Also for the Link argument & Scabe's retardedness, check out the vid I posted in the 'best vids' thread...amazing stuff.

 

[Justblaze647]

They also have better safe KO setups

Lol @ Falcon having KO setups...

Such as?

 

[A2ZOMG]

But Ike doesn't have a threateningly safe approach or camping, so how is he forcing commitment or mistakes?

And no Ike doesn't just kill you in one or two hits. He has to slowly rack up damage spacing individual moves. His Jab cancel can be SDIed as well (which should happen fairly often since he doesn't really have many other forward punish options), and even though Ike has massive range, he has very little ability to force you to retreat. Shields are infinite if you powershield consistently, and besides, Ike really can't do much to juggle anyone who saves a B reversal or midair jump to react to his stuff.

Falcon has LEGIT KO setups, his main problem is that he doesn't kill very early. U-throw -> aerial is virtually guaranteed damage if you don't suck with Falcon. He's a VERY good character at covering options when you are above him.

 

[BSP]

A2 do you play all of these characters you talk about, or play a lot of people that use them frequently? It sounds like theorycraft to me, but if you have vids or something, can you post them?

 

[Ripple]

I'd like to see A2Z play a well known ike such as kirk and watch him powshield everything

 

[Justblaze647]

Falcon has LEGIT KO setups,

if you have vids or something, can you post them?

Indeed. Vids or it never happened.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike can space auto-canceled N-airs to avoid punishment.

Just sayin'. You should be thinking more realistically, A2.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2 do you play all of these characters you talk about, or play a lot of people that use them frequently? It sounds like theorycraft to me, but if you have vids or something, can you post them?

I do in fact play Ike and Captain Falcon. And believe it or not, I'm quite decent with both characters, since I learned how to mindgame from using Ganondorf. I can mindgame people who don't know the matchup into Smashes like a pro. I have friends who are decent at this game as well, and I am very knowledgeable at how to trick people in general.

I don't have the time to record matches all the time, but I do have replays saved that I might get to later. People need to know that my Falcon at least actually can do stuff.

HeroMystic, Ike doesn't have a useable N-air autocancel, he just has 13 frames of landing lag, which is punishable on powershield as well (N-air hits on frame 15).

 

[HeroMystic]

...It's not usable?

Explain that to me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike's N-air autocancels on frames 1-7 and 67-75. By the time he's in position to autocancel on the initial frames, people will have been running in to grab (or dash attack?), and the autocancel on frames 67-75 occurs LOOOOOONG after Ike even manages to reach fullhop completion (Ike is airborne for 56 frames when fullhopping, and keep in mind he is NOT able to do two aerials within 56 frames).

There is a difference between autocanceling and having 13 frames of landing lag. The latter can in fact be punished with good reactions.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I love A2's logic.

If you applied it to the D3 vs Mario MU, Mario should have the advantage.

D3's frame data is comparable to Ike's.
D3 is slower in the air than Ike.
His recovery is cape bait once he's out of jumps, which is fairly likely with his slow air speed.
His grab should be easy to dodge because you would know it's coming. I mean, what else is he going to do when he's on the ground and somewhat close to Mario?
D3's projectile is PSable, along with most of his moves.

Shouldn't Mario be able to simply run away the whole game, throwing fireballs, PSing and then punishing most attacks and staying out of his grab range? Why, Mario must have at least a 6-4 advantage over D3! Who cares about the infinity, it's easy to see coming. Just stay out of it's range.


I also love how he says you can just PS camp an Ike to win, and even Ally didn't do that against Mr.Doom. He lost a game to Doom's Ike. Using MK. The dude who's either the best or second best at Brawl (depending on what you use to judge), lost a game to an Ike. Ally would know the frame data, and how "easy" it is to PS camp for a win.

PS camping is a worthless argument, irrelevant in both MU discussions and Tier List discussions. If not even the top level players do it, it's a non-factor.

Theorycrafting is all well and good...until reality completely and utterly trashes your theory. Using pure frame data doesn't work. According to it, Mario beats D3, with DK and Bowser being near even. MK should be banned according to pure frame data. D3 should be in E tier at best. Tethers should never, ever land a grab. Projectile spam should never work. Sonic should never land a Fsmash except for when out of a PS. A good number of characters in this game should never land a solid KOing move. Reality proves all of these conclusions incorrect.

 

[Masky]

A2ZOMG you are making ME angry now you are wrong about everything ever possible

 

[Yonder]

Ike can actually be pretty nasty in the right hands >_< (but you can sorta apply this to basically any character) Point is, He's fine where he's at now, who should pass him besides Mario imo.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ally's not nerdy enough to know frame data. He just knows what works. lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

And I'll just bring back this quote:

So yeah ADHD definitely Powershielded the hell out of 80% of my fairs last time I played his ICs with Ike. Now that I think of it so did mintyflesh. Garbz tier?

ADHD and Rykoshet are amazing players.

D3's frame data is BETTER than Ike's. He has better tilts, a better grab (is able to shieldgrab people out of Jab combos, while Ike can't), D3 has GOOD aerials that hit fast and can be used multiple times in the air, and plus he survives much much longer, AND he has sick edgeguarding thanks to his quick and fairly low lag aerials, while Ike has horrible edgeguarding.

Mario loses to D3 because D3 survives way too long for Mario to deal enough damage playing a poke game, while D3 does a ton of damage doing a regular CG to F-throw/B-throw or by outpriotritizing stuff with aerials. Mario would win the matchup if he wasn't forced to play extremely conservatively due to the grab (which he has no trouble avoiding if he wants to, but loses offensive power) and if his Up-smash/D-smash killed earlier.

At any rate however D3 is overrated, and Ike is as well.

 

[Albert.]

LOL at Marios Nair/Uair being decent spacing tools

combo tools, yes.

spacing?

Anybody who matters can wreck that LOL

Moving on-
Ness's Fair is good for Damage. People are forgetting, that with Ness's aerial mobility, and long 2nd jump mechanics, Ness can easily cross over most characters without them really being able to punish. That's why his fair is safe/useful

another thing regarding "Stay off the ground when you're in Back throw percent"

Yeah... thats putting you in a vulnerable position to get Baired, Uaired, or Naired. And all three are powerful aerials that will prolly kill you or put you in a bad situation. HMMM.


Ness is better than Mario, Ike, Falcon, Jiggs, and I'm pretty sure every character in the lower tiers

I dunno why anybody is mentioning Winterfest for Shaky/Ness representation, except for maybe Shaky and Nick taking a game off of Ally and M2k in teams (iirc... at the least they were CLOSE to beating the best MK and best Snake)

What people should be mentioning is LAN.

LAN:
Doubles Results: 16 total teams entrants.

1: Shaky (NESS) + Nick Riddle
2: Seibrik (MK) + Chaz (Marth)
3: HRNUT (Snake) + GDX (Diddy)

Singles Results: 40 total singles entrants

1: HRNUT (Snake) (they split)
2: Shaky (Ness) (they split)
3: Seibrik (D3, MK)
4: R@vyn (Pit)
5: Nick Riddle (ZSS)
5: Prince Ramen (Pit, MK)
7: Hungrybox (D3)
7: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9: Co18 (Fox, D3)
9: Chaz (Marth, MK)
9: GDX (Diddy)
9: Radix (Diddy, Snake)

Alright so- a NESS outplaced/beat some top players. That obviously shows that the player is good... and that the character that the player is using MUST be good to facilitate beating better/even players who are using proven BETTER characters.

I don't want to hear that "MU inexperience" bull****, because Shaky's been around, been going to tournaments, they KNOW the MU.

Oh and FOW wrecks on the WC. He's beaten/taken games off of Tyrant, SK92, DSF.

go suck big d1cks Ness under-raters.

 

[BSP]

Alright so- a NESS outplaced/beat some top players. That obviously shows that the player is good... and that the character that the player is using MUST be good to facilitate beating better/even players who are using proven BETTER characters.

How are we sure Shaky isn't just that good? Are there any other Ness's placing cosistently?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol go talk to all the Ness mains on this forum who say Mario is clearly better.

Ness doesn't have particularly amazing aerial mobility. Low aerial top speed...OKish aerial acceleration but nothing compared to Wario/Jiggs really. And his range is worse than Mario's on basically everything. And he doesn't even attack that fast....sooooo...he has none of the extreme safety benefits that anyone gets in terms of speed.

Ness is horrible at juggling, so he doesn't really have good ways of threatening you with aerials unless you screw up approaching him or something.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

How are we sure Shaky isn't just that good? Are there any other Ness's placing cosistently?

FOW's up there too.

 

[Kinzer]

FOW's up there too.

He stopped playing Nesh in Favor of MK/D3/ICs.

He'll only use Nesh in dubz/people who don't know how to play against Nesh.

If there's anything I agree with A2, it's that Ness is not that impressive if you're willing to be a douche.

 

[Justblaze647]

MK should be banned according to pure frame data.

I was giggling throughout this whole paragraph, but I nearly fell outta my seat when I read this...

 

[HeroMystic]

How in the world did Mario come up again? I'm not going to bother arguing for Mario because it's fruitless.

A2Z: Okay, what Ike can do?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ness and Mario both wear red hats. They're in a CONSTANT power struggle.

 

[Justblaze647]

Troll Alert!

Edit: Ness is definitely >>>>> than Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol what matchups does Ness do better in than Mario? Firstoff in the actual Mario vs Ness matchup, Mario wins that matchup slightly. Probably the only matchup Ness does better in otherwise I guess is D3.

Ike can be a one man army in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. And Radiant Dawn as well iirc.

In Brawl...against anyone good...he'll get away with Jabs half the time, make a gunshot noise when people make nub spacing mistakes, sometimes he can surprise someone with B-air, B-throw DA I guess, and then I guess that's it. Basically all his stuff only works if you don't know how to react or prepare yourself against it. Not unlike Ganondorf really.

And he can be situationally awesome in teams.

 

[BSP]

lol what matchups does Ness do better in than Mario? Firstoff in the actual Mario vs Ness matchup, Mario wins that matchup slightly. Probably the only matchup Ness does better in otherwise I guess is D3.

*Points to character rankings thread*

From what I see, Mario is right above Ganon, while Ness is almost a whole tier above him. We should look at what's actually happening.

 

[laki]

Looking purely from tourney results, Ike is nowhere near bottom five.

Although I do admit he seems over popular >_>

 

[A2ZOMG]

*Points to character rankings thread*

From what I see, Mario is right above Ganon, while Ness is almost a whole tier above him. We should look at what's actually happening.

Hence why tournament results are not that good of an argument.

I mean seriously...Ganon isn't last in the character rankings thread.

 

[BSP]

It almost seems like you're saying that solely things that we see on paper (ie frame data) should be used to determine quality of characters.

 

[Matador]

*Points to character rankings thread*

From what I see, Mario is right above Ganon, while Ness is almost a whole tier above him. We should look at what's actually happening.

Link's above them both...lol. We also have two tourney wins...while Ness has none...That rankings list is great for its purpose which is to track tourney results for specific characters, but when you use it for things like tier placings...it's skewed.

Link won ONE tourney with a good turn-out, and he jumped like 10 places...he was above Fox at one point.

That said, there are good Ness mains out there. Vicegrip, Shaky, FOW...they're putting in work.

There are good Mario mains out there. Boss, Vato_Break, BO X7, Irios...they're repping to the fullest.

If you want to decide who's better, don't come uninformed spouting nonsense like "look how THIS Ness placed! Can any Marios do that??" When we've been putting up the same numbers. It's better to compare the characters, and their respective match-ups instead.

LOL, o-wait, this is smashboards! Carry on you crazy kids...

 

[Dajayman]

Why does nobody mention Smash64 when mentioning excellent Ness players?! He's the best Ness in the world!!!

 

[BSP]

Link's above them both...lol. We also have two tourney wins...while Ness has none...That rankings list is great for its purpose which is to track tourney results for specific characters, but when you use it for things like tier placings...it's skewed.

Link won ONE tourney with a good turn-out, and he jumped like 10 places...he was above Fox at one point.

That said, there are good Ness mains out there. Vicegrip, Shaky, FOW...they're putting in work.

There are good Mario mains out there. Boss, Vato_Break, BO X7, Irios...they're repping to the fullest.

If you want to decide who's better, don't come uninformed spouting nonsense like "look how THIS Ness placed! Can any Marios do that??" When we've been putting up the same numbers. It's better to compare the characters, and their respective match-ups instead.

LOL, o-wait, this is smashboards! Carry on you crazy kids...

All right, I see your point, but I don't think matchups should be the only thing considered when determining places on the list.

 

[Throwback]

just to stick to my guns more....link won a tourney with a good turnout? How often do any of the other low tier characters do that? Maybe he's better than his current tier rating reflects

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

There are good Mario mains out there. Boss, Vato_Break, BO X7, Irios...they're repping to the fullest.

You have a funny definition of repping to the fullest.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link's above them both...lol. We also have two tourney wins...while Ness has none...That rankings list is great for its purpose which is to track tourney results for specific characters, but when you use it for things like tier placings...it's skewed.

Link won ONE tourney with a good turn-out, and he jumped like 10 places...he was above Fox at one point.

That said, there are good Ness mains out there. Vicegrip, Shaky, FOW...they're putting in work.

There are good Mario mains out there. Boss, Vato_Break, BO X7, Irios...they're repping to the fullest.

If you want to decide who's better, don't come uninformed spouting nonsense like "look how THIS Ness placed! Can any Marios do that??" When we've been putting up the same numbers. It's better to compare the characters, and their respective match-ups instead.

LOL, o-wait, this is smashboards! Carry on you crazy kids...

That was one of the funnest times on these boards, people were going, "WTF Link is that high?"

Still while tournament results should be a factor in a tier list, looking at the qualities of them should be noticed.

From that people can see Link sucks.

KirinBlaze helps Link and Mario out in rep, I'm surprised you didn't list him.